I Hate Liberals

[WilliamPitt]

It's funny.

Find me a liberal cause and I'm probably behind it.

Save Social Security? I'm there.

Save ANWR? I'm with you.

Equal rights across the board for tax-paying freedom-loving American citizens who happen to be gay and want to get married just like every other tax-paying freedom-loving American citizen gets to do without a second thought from anyone? I'm there.

Find me a liberal policy initiative and I'm probably behind it. Health care is a right easily attained by each and every single American once health care no longer exists as a for-profit business? Yo.

The military and their sucker-fish defense contractors don't need eight billion gazillion dollars for a missile shield in space that can stop exactly no rogue airplanes in metropolitan airspace while millions go hungry all across the land? Yup.

Public schools need billions of dollars to stop the wretched fact that millions of children gratduate without knowing what the Supreme Court does for a living, to stop the push towards teaching our kids that creationism is the only truth, to stop the creation of stupid people as a matter of policy, said policy holding that stupid people make obedient consumers and compliant workers? Indeed.

Find me a cause, a policy initiative, a white paper, an idea, a belief, a theory or a protest that stems from the liberal philosophy. Chances are huge I'm on your side.

But man. Man o man. I hate liberals.

I agree with so much of what other liberals believe. All day, every day. But it seems like all I do is fight with liberals. I can't have a mildly divergent opinion on a matter of import without being called a Republican, or a Freeper, or a sellout, or a whore. If I'm a Christian, I empower the fundamentalist Right. If I'm an atheist, I'm bashing, period.

Two examples of this happened recently, though I could give 200 examples if I felt like writing all night. These two will do. Example One: I was honored tonight to introduce Dahr Jamail at a talk in Boston. Jamail, if you don't know, got sick of the corporate news coverage of Iraq and went there himself. He got into Fallujah and let the world know what happened there. He is an amazing human being.

They gave me 15 minutes to say my thing and then introduce him. In my wee speech, I dared to forge beyond the self-righteous boundaries of 'Out Now!' to suggest the bare outlines of a plan on how to get out as soon as possible.

I used Howard Dean as a foil; he recently said we have to stay there, voicing the well-reasoned but argument-I-disagree-with 'Pottery Barn' argument. I think we can get out, we have to get out, but some kind of coherent plan/timeline is needed, because 'Out Now!' makes a good slogan but slogans don't make coherent policy.

I called Dean a hero before I went into this, because he is, but this is more to do with example two, to follow. The point for now is that I called him a hero before I said I disagreed with him. We need to get out of Iraq, I said. As soon as possible.

About halfway through my bare outline - somewhere between getting the Houston contractors out so Iraqis can actually work for pay and invigorate their economy, and get the UN and the Arab League to create a massive mostly-Arab force to take over security/police duty so the Americans can be cycled out en masse and sent home - I met the hecklers.

They were both white, both around my mid-30s age, both with those white-and-black Palestilian militatnt scarves wrapped around their necks. One of them yelled "Shut up with your pro-war bullshit!" Another wadded up the program and threw it at me. They kept this up for a while. As this wasn't my show, but Dahr Jamail's show, I worked through the last two minutes of my introduction of him without starting a shouting match with these two. It galled, yes, but wasn't appropriate to deal with it.

Example number two happened when I went out to have a smoke. A nicely dressed suburban fellow followed me out, and proceeded to scold me. Don't call people heroes, he said with index finger a-wavin'. I had called Dean a hero, you see. I had described the life and death of Marla Ruzicka in my speech, who went to Iraq to count the civilian dead and died there, and called her a hero. When I introduced Jamail, who went to the most dangerous place on earth so we could get the truth, I called him a hero.

Don't call people heroes, he said with index finger a-wavin'. It makes other people feel bad.

Liberals complain. We go to meetings with other liberals and listen to speeches filled with facts we knew before we got there, and complain to the person sitting next to us who already knows what we know and is ready to rock and roll with their own complaining.

All too often, liberals would rather complain and feel good about themselves than choke down the hard stones that sometimes have to be swallowed when seeking a solution that might actually work.

Liberals like to fight. We get into a room, either real or electronic, and wind up in huge, epic arguments about this or that while skating past the fact that the person we are arguing with and insulting agrees with about 90% of what we agree with. We forget the old rule: If you find yourself screaming in rage at someone who agrees with 90% of what you agree with, you might just be a zealot and therefore no good to anyone but yourself.

Conservatives used to be like liberals. They were out of power and fighting amongst themselves, the Birchers v. the Rockefellars v. the Nixonites v. the Reaganites v. the Fundamentalists v. the Internationalists. Somewhere along the line, they figured out how to quell all that, and whoosh! they were in power. I enjoy disliking conservatives and do not enjoy hating liberals, but since they both apparently share so many common characteristics these days, I am helpless before the tide.

I hate liberals. We do not get along, we enjoy disagreement for the sake of disagreement all too often, we are so hard to meld into a coalition that no one has ever, ever, ever managed to meld us into an effective coalition for any significant period of time. Liberals are the reason liberals lose elections nowadays.

I'm a liberal. I believe in the cause, the causes, the policy ideas. We ran the country for years once upon a time while winning World War II and salvaging the national economy by coming up with ways to help the helpless. Imagine it. The things we can do for the good of this country and the world positively boggle the mind.

But I hate liberals, because we won't let that happen. We make me absolutely crazy.

========

The preceding was truth-cum-sarcasm combined with massive exaggeration, and is a re-post of a thread I put up back in April. If you don't like it, if it pissed you off, then it was probably about you. Cope.

[Mythsaje]

1. We've got a bit in common, Will...

You're probably slightly more direct than I am, but I don't always toe the party line either.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

91. I don't think it's the "party line" that he's referring to...

..or even the fact that people disagree with him. What he's really talking about are the left-wing culture warriors: people who feel morally superior to anyone they disagree with, and are little more than rude idiots with the emotional maturity of a five year old.

All I can say to Will is: think those guys are bad? Try the right-wing fundies. They make left wing kooks look positively subtle, calm, and urbane.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[MindPilot]

3. Oh goddamnit another freeper troll infiltrator. MODS!!!!

Nicely said Will; I agree 100% Athough I will probably get flamed for being a white male... :applause:

[BoneDaddy]

30. Hehe

Be careful MP, you are using your white male privlege again...this time in a sarcastic way.

In order for you to be an acceptable male you must be:
silent, neutered, impotent and you need to shut up!

Hehehe


Great post!

[rockymountaindem]

4. K&R

I remember when you posted some of this the first time. It was true then and it's true now, especially the part about arguing with someone who agrees with 90% of what you say.

[stepnw1f]

5. Get In Line! (nt)

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. This should be good!

:popcorn:

[KoKo]

71. Lottsa "Popcorn...." munch, munch, crackle...munch........

:-)'s

[bryant69]

7. Dead right

And I don't know how we get around it either.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[EFerrari]

8. We hate us, too, Will.

lol

[Rainscents]

9. Will... Love your post!!!

I'm with you all the way!!! :hi:

[blogslut]

10. misdirected anger?

Perhaps some of it comes from the fact that we've been shut out of our ability to state our grievances directly to the source. We can't protest without a 'free speech zone'. We can't hear the president speak without signing an oath of allegiance. We can't put bumper stickers on our cars without fear of physical harm....

[AbbyR]

108. Well, not physical harm maybe...

but that reminds me, I put my DU bumper sticker on my car, right next to the Kerry sticker that is still there, and my DU bumper sticker was gone by the time I got home. I have no idea who took it - I was at work all day, then stopped off at the grocery store, and by the time I got home, it wasn't there.

Sheesh - maybe I forgot to park in a free speech zone.

[Seedersandleechers]

11. Have you ever thought of running for Office

I'd vote for you..

[astonamous]

12. ROFLMAO!!!!! n/t LOL!

[Armstead]

13. Um you can gather 20 people randomly, and some will be assholes

I hate generalizations about any group of people. Any group of people is a group of individuals.

I like some liberls,. Othehrs drive me nuts. And still others elicit a neutral reaction.

I actually like a lot of conservatives. There are also a lot of conswervative assholes. And others who are non-decript.

You coul say the same about any grpoup of people who hve one thing in common. Or nothing in common.

(I write the abover realizing it sounds like weenie liberal tolerance. Oh well..... :shrug: )

[WilliamPitt]

14. Sic semper satire

[Armstead]

15. Why did the liberal cross the road?

:+

[WilliamPitt]

18. Because he was stapled to the DLCer

...and didn't know it. :)

[Shakespeare]

44. Goddamnit.

:spray:

New monitor, please.

[EFerrari]

19. Oh, there you go AGAIN, being a tolerant Liberal Weenie

:)

[populistdriven]

67. 4 of them will be mentally unstable

[jsamuel]

79. There is often more variation within a group than between groups.

This is proven by DNA evidence and why Anthropology says that "race" doesn't exist.

[anitar1]

83. I know conservative "liberals" and may be one

myself in some matters. Liberal is only a name we have had dropped on us. I consider myself a person who cares about my fellow man. I cannot turn a blind eye to the suffering of others.If one has compassion, does that make one a liberal? The only labels I like are those concerning Repugs.Cold, greedy, punishing, sociopathic, arrogant, ignorant, religious?,dictatorial,without a shred of compassion ect ect.But , I agree with you , Will. I don't always agree with you.

[zippy890]

16. Thanks so much,- funny, timely

and true!

I appreciate your posting this now - it helps to be able
to laugh at ourselves - and give insightful perspective at the same time.

:thumbsup:

[Warpy]

17. "Love Me, I'm a Liberal"

Phil Ochs nailed it 40 years ago.

[bunkerbuster1]

45. And that's why I'm turning you in...

for calling people "heros!" It makes other people feel bad.

great post. nominated.

[politicaholic]

20. Being emotionally vested in something is a real bitch isn't it?

For a pacifist speech and protest is their only weapon. If you're going to be on that side then you too certainly have to deal with it.

Sorry everyone can't be on the same page, but that's not how democracy works and changing that isn't democracy it's whatever is going on now. Neo-con-ocracy.

[WillyT]

21. LOL !!! - I Hear Ya Man !!! - Remember The Harper's Impeachment TownHall ?

Not one person who came to the microphone during the question and answer period could ask a simple straight-forward question. NOT ONE!!!

Every one of 'em had to launch into a paragraph or two of preface, before they ever got anywhere NEAR asking a question. In fact... you could see some of them struggling mightily to re-write the speech in their heads, INTO A QUESTION!

Whadda ya gonna do, man? LOL!!!

:rofl::crazy::silly::woohoo::silly::crazy::rofl:

:hi:

[Connie_Corleone]

24. I was cussing at the TV during the question/answer part.

"Ask the F****** question and shut up!" LOL!!

[WillyT]

37. Oh... Me Too !!!

&%$&^%$^^%$^%$^*$#*&%$@%&#@^%)(&Y(^&)*^%^%*)^ !!!

Something to that effect.

:hi:

[LSK]

47. yeah but the moderator had a really short leash

It was getting painful to watch.

[WI_DEM]

22. I had a thread about Mark Warner today

and said I had not made up my mind on him, but do think he is will be a major factor in the '08 race, but one after another people come on and say "he is DLC" "he is homophobic", ect. We love to eat our own. Some deserve to be eaten, but I think at this time we don't know enough about Warner and many of the '08 candidates to make that decision. All I know about him is that he turned VA around financially, had an impressive education record in the state and left office with high approval ratings and could bring a state which is just barely red into the Dem column in 2008.

[Turn CO Blue]

23. Yeah, me too!

I totally get your post. But DU is still my church.

[anitar1]

84. Yes! Because we learn so much here. N/T

[blue cat]

25. I hate people who hate liberals

and paint all of us by the ones that they meet. Guess something like that would never happen at a conservative gathering. They wouldn't think about what you said but just lapped it up as long as they believed that you were one of them.

[WilliamPitt]

27. My friend made me a t-shirt

that reads "Liberals Against Liberals Against Liberals"...

...and I think you missed the satirical element of this. Note at the bottom and all. Oh well.

[radio4progressives]

66. Hmm.. Satire or Softening Up the Left and the Anti-War Movement?

Maybe you haven't been up close enough Will. Maybe it isn't your fault, and maybe you're just too young to really understand.

You're old enough to be my son, or rather I should say i'm old enough to be your mother ..

So you got about another 25 years of real hard struggle in front of ya if you shed enough of your current privileges and be as close to physical and/or social genocide as you can possibly be, and still manage to be alive or able to speak at such events or write "policy position papers before you'll get what all this fuss is all about.

And maybe you'll understand why it was probably not the greatest idea to emphasize or quibble over the details and logistics of an "Out Now" vs "Pottery Barn" policy at that (or any) public speaking event. Because even though "Out Now" means exactly what those words imply, it's never ever possible to be "out now" ..

And everyone is painfully aware of that fact deep in their hearts and souls though we would wish for some other reality, but we all know "Out Now" means maybe another 2, 3 or 4 years at the minimum like Viet Nam. Oh that's right you don't remember Viet Nam. All this to say, is that it is unnecessary to state the obvious (about logistics and such) and it is inappropriate to those who know it much more personally than others, but not in the so called "politically correct" sense. (although i can see by some of your writing that you have a certain proclivity for that, eg that bit about the palestinian scarves around the necks of "white" folks your age ..i don't have your exact quote, but your disdain was certainly palpable).

Want to discuss real policy details and the distinctions of an "out now", in order to delineate "logistics" and other related matters?

Fine.

But what was the point in stating that in your introductory remarks before that assembly? Wasn't it really intended to "soften up" the anti-war movement for the DLC "leadership", so that we can start to get used to the idea of being in Iraq for several more years or even decades, even with Democrats in back in control? Some of us have been here before, and we're saying No, not ever again. (Viet Nam/Korea etc)

[Clark2008]

107. I didn't see any "softening" up.

I'm not DLC - and, in fact, support only one DLC candidate because he's the only Dem in my state who can beat the Republicans (and he's becoming less and less DLC every day). I was also against this idiotic war.

However, I realize that, strategically, we cannot get "out now" just like that. I think the point that needs to be made to the "out now" group is that it would be LESS safe for the very people they're trying to save - our soldiers and Iraqi civilians - to just pull out without a plan and without a political process in order. Is the window to replace the military with the political strategy closing? You bet your sweet bippy it is. Do I have confidence that this current maladministration will seize the opportunity to do that? Not on your life. However, I do understand the difference between "out now" and making a plan to get out as soon as possible - via Jack Murtha, Wesley Clark and some others.


I don't think Will was being condescending to the "out now" group in that crowd, nor was he softening them up for the DLC "leadership." I think he was expressing a point of view that the "out now" people need to hear - and stop sneering at without any thought.

But, I'm with you on the "never again" part. We should have never gone there in the first place and we don't need to go to many of the places we go to start wars. Agreed.

[radio4progressives]

109. I understand your point., i guess i didn't make my point clear..

although, "Out Now" means exactly what it says...

Everyone who demands "Out Now" is painfully aware that "Out Now" is never possible in the most literal sense of the word, however much we want it to be so.

However, by demanding "Out Now" - implicitely demands executing logistical plans for an "exit strategy" now.

Because as history makes so painfully clear, when no exit strategy is even planned, means precisely that no exit strategy exists.

Given that the Democratic Party Leadership not only went along with this insane debacle, and given that they never called the war into question until the anti-war movement finally made it's voice heard (and even then meek and mealy mouthed in their response) and given that to date no serious, explicit demands for an end to this war is being called by the Democratic Party leadership, naturally and logically calls into question whether or not they too support and intend a permanent presence in Iraq.

Given all of this background together with our long tawdry history in imperalistic militarism, lecturing anti-war activists on this point, is condencending to the extreme.

One is compelled to speculate why would an otherwise intelligent party functionary attempt to send this message to the anti-war community, other than to "soften up" or prepare psychologically the anti-war movement in accepting the notion that we have to remain in Iraq for years perhaps decades to come whether or not the Democratic Party gets back in power in 2006/2008, precisely because that's the real position of the Democratic Party - so we better get used to it now...

[autorank]

110. radio4progressives & Clark2008, you both make very important points.

"Out Now" is the operative term. It's important that we think outside the box on this one.

A clear majority of Iraqi's not only want us "out now," they support other Iraqis in suicide
bombings against our troops.

An even bigger majority of Iraqis want us "out now."

It's their country. We need to oblige their wishes and get "out now."

As Murtha says, the war generates problems it was intended to prevent and having our forces in a country
that holds the views outlined above is unacceptable.

Sitting down with them and telling them we're going to oblige is perhaps the best and only
intervention we have left. It will force them to get their act together and help real
leaders bubble up to the top. Nothing like a final deadline to focus the mind.

They clearly want us "out now." The debate is over on that issue. The next question is how
to get out without our troops being harmed. That's it. If they want us out so badly, they'll
make sure that happens. If they try to attack us after we've started to leave, then they'll
feel the impact of our response, which at that point would be fully justified.

We are headed out, they've told us to get out, they've endorsed violence against us.

It's time to acknowledge the will of those people and the clear needs of our troops to serve
in missions where there is support for their efforts.

[radio4progressives]

111. Autorank, that's precisely the case.. thanks for articulating it better

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. Oh, conservatives have their differences...

the Assembly of God folks hate the Jehovah Witnesses, and they all hate the Mormons and...

but they sure know how to get out the vote.

[renate]

94. that's a good point, I think

how knee-jerk conservatives would lap anything up as long as it comes from someone they think is one of their own.

For example, I can't think of any other reason people would listen to the patently unpleasant radio shows of O'Reilly or Limbaugh. How could that nastiness not ruin a person's day unless they felt some kind of kinship with them?

[FatDave]

26. There's an old saying, something along the lines of...

"Don't let the assholes get you down". Assholiness doesn't discriminate. There are assholes in every class, country, race, sex, and as you know, political ideologies.

Dont't take it too personally.

(BTW, I always enjoy your posts, Will.)

[WilliamPitt]

29. Illegitimis non carborundum

:)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

62. Latin is a Language as dead as can be

it killed the ancient Romans
and now it's killing me

:)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

60. "Don't let the bastards get you down"

Nolite te bastardes carbondonum

[David Zephyr]

28. I love liberals.

Any study of the progressive / liberal side of American politics from the inception of the country until today would reveal much the very same picture that you painted: "Liberals like to fight. We get into a room, either real or electronic, and wind up in huge, epic arguments about this or that while skating past the fact that the person we are arguing with and insulting agrees with about 90% of what we agree with."

The early days of the labor unions in the 1800's were one battle after the next. In the end, the Wobblies, who were the greatest American political organization ever in my opinion, pulled away in 1905 at Brand Hall in Chicago and actually did agree on just about everything from striking to opposing Wilson's War.

Fighting is good. I like to fight. I distrust those who won't.

The progressive "whoosh" into power, as you called it, did not happen because liberals stopped fighting among themselves, but because the Great Depression so thoroughly discredited the Republican Party that it took them an entire generation to down-live their malfeasance within the public mind.

Even when progressives had our brief, fleeting moment of power in the Congress and the White House, we fought among ourselves. Huey Long kept FDR's feet to the fire of liberalism. Bobby Kennedy did the same with LBJ and HHH. Most recently, Howard Dean did the same to the war lackeys within our Party.

Fighting is good. We have things to fight about.

And I'll drink with a liberal who I disagree with, cuss him / her out when I wish to and love them all the while.

I love liberals.

[tabasco]

82. Great post!

I love liberals too!

[anitar1]

86. Good post! I love liberals also. We do have a way

of calling it BS when needed.

[radio4progressives]

93. Well Said!

:applause: :toast: :applause:

[DrGonzoLives]

101. Huey Long?

The same Huey Long who conspired with Father Coughlin to run a candidate designed to split the left-wing vote and elect a Republican so he could wait four years and run himself in 1940?

[Robeysays]

118. So right...

i love liberals too.
and i love to argue.

[Tiggeroshii]

31. This sounds a bit like what James Carville said once

"You know the difference between a cannibal and a Democrat? Cannibals don't eat their own."

[KoKo]

69. James and Will are both "pramatists."

nuff said...

[NewJeffCT]

72. Or, going way back, what Will Rogers once said

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."

[Craig3410]

32. It's that damned "big tent"; biggest blessing and biggest curse

of being a liberal.

[WePurrsevere]

33. Very well said sir and I agree. I'd rather use what little energy I have

fighting with Republicans and against the Bush / neo-CON agenda then fighting fellow Liberals and Dems over things that in essence we agree 90% agree on.

edited to add: I must admit I wouldn't use the word hate though... hate takes too much energy best put to use elsewhere. B-)

[file83]

35. I'll take the bait.....So you want liberals to become like BushBots?

(All marching blindly in lockstep, in individual voicelessness?)

The examples you gave of the idiots you've encountered in your life are just that: examples of idiots, these ones just so happen to be liberals.

So, are all these people "idiots" because they are liberals, or liberals because they are "idiots"?

Oh, wow, by answering that question, you are forced to face the realization that your statement is a sweeping generalization. And we all know how valid those kinds of statements are. :sarcasm:

The failure of Democrats to regain power isn't due to the inevitable "idiotness" present in the party. The failure is due to the fact that Republicans have played dirty (Rove), fund their campaigns with illegal money (Delay), have friends on the inside of elections (Diebold), exploit the fears of the populace (9/11), highjack the blind faith of the evangelicals (Bush), etc., etc., etc...

And of course, they are only able to do all this because they don't have any "idiots" in their party, right? :sarcasm:

[Just Me]

36. Well, I wouldn't mind our comfort in fully expressing ourselves,...

,...if we would stop advertising it all the damn time. *LOL* We are like any close family unit: open with thoughts and feelings, KNOWING we'll always be accepted back into the unit at some point or another.

But, our open-ness is both our strength and our greatest weakness because the world is NOT OUR stage for full expression,...the world is an arena for our positive influence and we HAVE to unite IF we want to be effective.

[SeattleGirl]

38. Sarcatic or not, you hit it, Will

Great post!

[Crazy Guggenheim]

39. Jeez Will look at this ..........

Will Pitt Sympathy Thread

[WilliamPitt]

40. And you wanted me to join

:P

[Crazy Guggenheim]

42. Yeah but they won't treat you like some crazy "libruls" would.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[JanMichael]

41. Me too Will. They're just a bunch of guilty conservatives mostly.

With rich parents, paid for educations, and guilt laden over the fact that they're priviledged beyond belief compared to much of America and most of the World. BUT they LOVE their gated communities, or over-priced Brownstones where it's easy to be a Liberal; like in Portland where there are about 2% to 3% Blacks and lots of expensive coffee to drown their Liberal guilt with.

I hate those fuckers too brother.

Screaming to bomb Serbia when the KLA are basically terrorists in their own right, but whatever helps US Imperialism is fine. Fake fuckin' "Left" bastards. We'll send those ingrates Democracy on the tip of a cruise missile, yeh. We'll bomb their TV stations, their electric grids, their water supplies, and subjagate them to US. We'll impoverish the lot of them, destroy their healthcare systems, so Dell can get some more highly educated, but willing to work for pennies, "employees". We love desperate types, it's good for business and that's good for us.

Seriously man, I hate, I mean us, them too.

I hate their, my, our, abandonment of Labor and their embracing of that for shit Tony Blair Third Way. Go pray for more advice from God Tony ya' fuckin' moola.

Thanks, I needed to vent.

[berni_mccoy]

43. THAT'S IT YOU LIBERAL HATING LIBERAL

I hate liberals who hate liberals... wanna fight?

:evilgrin:

[dogday]

46. You hate Liberals, I hate being Liberal

It is hard work as shrub would say, to want to change the world in a second. Too much passion on every single subject...

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Sure, but it beats hangin' out with the alternative.

[LSK]

49. im reading this and start to think "hey, ive read this before"

And then I read your last line and yep, I have read it before. :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. Ok, That Last Line, The One You Signed Off With,

One of the best snarky end lines I ever read in an OP! :rofl:

On a very very serious note to me, do you not desire to ever run for a political office? I find myself thinking your ability to reason, speak eloquently yet ability to get fired up when necessary are exactly the types of traits we need in new political blood. I'm sure this question must've come up to you a brazillion times by now, but I'm curious as to why you don't jump in and give it a shot.

[kohodog]

51. Some of us are just pissed off and depressed, yet ready to fight.

It's easier to split hairs than deal with reality sometimes. Bottom line, Sandra Day was right, we are close to if not living in a de facto dictatorship. Liberals need to get our shit together and fight the real enemy: fascism/dictatorship/whatever label you want to put on what's going on. Compromise is tough for me because the bar is so low already. Today's liberals are yesterday's Republicans. My father would have been 88, and he was a republican for years. In his 50's or 60's he became a democrat but his beliefs never changed. The republican party went right and he became a democrat without really changing his ideals. Today's centrist democrats are yesterdays republicans. Those of us who are peaceandjustice dem's are "on the fringe."

Do we want to lock step like the right and never question? I think not. But these days racism, religion and fear have taken hold. We need to unite the "other super power," the people of the world who stand against tyranny no matter what geographic location where it has taken hold.

Let's look at the big picture. These are difficult times indeed.

[magellan]

52. But we make each other think

Well, people here make ME think, anyway. And that to me is the beauty of being an open-minded liberal. Sure we don't agree on miniscule things, but in the best scenarios someone comes away perhaps having learned something.

I just learned something important from a disagreement over Dean's job; I was corrected, and (I think) I accepted it graciously, though it did raise another question. I wasn't too keen on basically being called stupid by another poster for my lack of subtle knowledge; somehow, I don't think that's the best way to teach others what they don't know without first giving them a chance. But never mind. In the end I came away enriched, I tell you, enriched!!

So phooey on the idea that our squabbles keep us down. I think they're our strength. I certainly prefer it over being a brainless ditto head.

[bpilgrim]

53. I Hate DINOs

that is all.

peace

[Carni]

54. Look at how many bullshit fights start on here!

I cannot tell you how many times I have been bitched at for making snarky remarks as an example about Anne Coulter *looking like a man*...it's like there's some humor appreciation but then there is always that dour person that decides to step in and complain because I shouldn't make fun of transvestites.
(WTF? IS she one? I don't THINK SO--no self respecting cross dresser would look like that tacky crone)

I know we're a big tent but Jesus Christ, not everything is meant as a banner policy statement from individual smart asses such as myself who are just looking for comic relief.

I enjoy humor and some modicum of sarcasm and irony.

If something is absurd and goes against my natural appreciation of common sense I am going to comment on it--this often causes problems.

[stickdog]

55. I hate egoists.

Liberals I can take or leave.

[WilliamPitt]

59. Must be tough

to deal with mirrors, then.

[Pastiche423]

80. They've never appealed to me either, stickdog

Plus, I suck at bowing.

[Mr_Spock]

88. That's not very funny

:popcorn:

[cascadiance]

56. Will, I understand your frustration... Here's my take on this.

I think there's a combination of two issues that work against us working together here in the way you describe.

1) Republicans tend to subscribe more to groupthink and following others' ideas than coming up with their own, or at least liberals tend more to think independently to match their own thoughts to what is being presented to them. If things are working well for them, and what's being presented is being shown to work, they are a lot more inclined to accept it. If things aren't working right now (as currently is the case), then we all have our different ideas about what is wrong.

2) Being powerless for so long and abused for so long leads to deep feelings of anger boiling up in all of us. We want to let it out, and sometimes we let it out on each other if we're not careful, if what we feel passionate about doing to better ourselves and those around us is being contradicted by a view someone else has. This is also especially true when things aren't working well for us as a group too, and each of us are that much more emotional that our solution is the right one for others to use to follow to fix the existing tough problems, and that we aren't being listened to enough. When you have different approaches (both which might having real value or perhaps neither having real value) you can see how it can lead to "fights".

I know for me personally, I feel that helping Sibel Edmonds get her story out is a KEY to bringing down this corrupt administration and some of the real problems surrounding it. Others have other priorities like voting machines integrity, or supreme court nominations. In truth, they are all important, and though I may know more about the piece I feel more relatively important, others may know info on another subject that justifies them putting that subject higher in priority too.

I think it is important for all of us to step back whenever we get into these sorts of confrontations and not dismiss someone else's ideas just because they are different than ours. We shouldn't aquiesce like Rethugs do, which is contrary to our values of independent thought, but we should be willing to hear people out on why they think something or a certain approach is important. We should also ask to have our ideas heard in the same way from them. Hopefully between the sharing of information, we can come to a conclusion of a newer paradigm between the two of us what is important and what isn't to focus on for change. The more we can do this collectively in larger groups, the more we can have a mission of solving the important problems and not just get sidetracked on emotional issues that put us up against each other.

I think that when we do discover a mechanism that works (kind of like we did with marching with Cindy Sheehan, or the like), we tend to come together to get behind it. The key is trying to find those right things to be successful. Not many people argue with success for what most of us have as shared goals.

[nickgutierrez]

57. I thought I'd seen this before

Turns out, I'm not crazy - you did post this last April. I agreed then - although I don't think I posted that - and I agree now.

"We make me absolutely crazy."

Says it all, I think.

[KoKo]

70. You've seen it before.........and you agreed...and it was posted again

just...in case.....

[stop the bleeding]

58. here is my favorite part

"All too often, liberals would rather complain and feel good about themselves than choke down the hard stones that sometimes have to be swallowed when seeking a solution that might actually work."

ain't that the truth

[bpilgrim]

63. "a solution that might actually work" - lol

yeah, like our leaders or pitt actually has one :eyes:

we need to do what business does... give the people what they want & they want a POPULIST but our 'leaders' are to in bed with multinationals to actually respond so they spend all their time defending their failed policies while trying to make weTHEpeople feel stupid for wanting change.

a hard rain is coming, no the less...

peace

[KoKo]

73. In that case then we MUST MAKE IRAQ WORK...because NOT to DO SO

would mean that George Bush/Neo-Cons have failed and so have John Kerry, John Edwards and every cowardly Democrat who voted in favor of the IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION that Gonzales and the Bushies NOW SAY...gave Bush the right to Imminent Domain over the United States of America and all those living within the borders. It's BUSH COUNTRY...and we "Liberals" who give the "F" sign and "heckle" just don't get the BIG BUSH PICTURE....

Right....:eyes: Feed me another mercury filled fish...and tell me to eat it up and feed my kids and family......

Disgusting dirty LIBERALS...somebody should teach them a lesson. They just don't have any manners and can't understand what the BUSHIES and CORPORATISTS/GLOBALISTS are doing ..is REALLY in our BEST INTEREST...

Sell me the Brooklyn Bridge...or maybe the WAR IN IRAN!

[davsand]

61. Will, you have NO idea how timely this opening post was for me.

I can't TELL you how much this hit home with me tonight...

Simply put, I love you, Will. Not in a sticky, sweaty, moaning way--but I do love you for being so very real.

You rock, baby!


Laura

[Beelzebud]

64. I disagree!!!

Just kidding! I couldn't resist doing that.

But what you say in there is pretty accurate. I know I've been guilty of it lately. It's just hard to keep focus when you see everything you believe in being flushed down the toilet by those in power.

[Joanne98]

65. when things get scary, people get skittish

we understand.

[KoKo]

68. Oh Dear God..........Pitt comes out of the closet..........

:eyes:

It's a good thing I think better of you than you do yourself...but then... look at my sig line...'

I'm always duped by minstrels who have some poetic leanings....

SHEESH...this has gotta be one of your all time...well...all time..

GACK!

[realFedUp]

74. Hating your toilet plunger

wouldn't you still get 73 replies?

[Zomby Woof]

75. I hate everyone

It's more efficient. :-)

[Mr_Spock]

90. I like your thinking

As an engineering type, I tend to be attracted to efficiency :D

[RazzleDazzle]

76. You hate liberals? That's funny.

Some of them might return the favor.

If that pisses you off, then it was probably true. Cope.

[Mr_Spock]

85. Um.

I, um, think you missed the point.

[wookie294]

77. I've been there, too

Don't let it get you down. I know you won't. It's a bit humiliating, but these people will always be there. Just remember, there are more who agree with you. Think of them when you're being chewed out. We're here!

[BootinUp]

78. Why don't you just get a spine Will!

:sarcasm:

[flaminbats]

81. Republicans used to have this problem until the 70's..

They had a western wing that was more like the DLC and an eastern liberal wing that was hated by the western wing. But this all changed with the persistent hate of Goldwater, Reagan, and Pat Robertson.

The liberal wing of the Republican Party was resented as being snobbish, self-righteous, and never willing to admit being wrong! They weren't the same as Democratic liberals..like Harry Truman, Martin Luther King, or FDR. Some good examples were Thomas Dewey, Nelson Rockefeller, and John Anderson. They were seen as disconnected, weird, and unpatriotic. Now liberals have vacated the Republican Party, just as conservatives abandoned the Democrats. The Republican Party of the 1940's is much like our party now, except that liberals were a political force in both parties. Now liberals are isolated into a single party. Instead of being seen as moral reformers who support liberty and equality for all the people, we are seen as snotty and rude drivers of BMW's who have never considered voting Republican.

Until our party can ditch this sorry image..and remind voters everywhere of the snotty country klubbers who run the RNC, politics will not stop drifting further to the right.

[stevietheman]

87. You had only three people disagree with you re: your speech?

Wow... and I would have been joyous about that. Only 3. And the finger-waving guy I would have just brushed off as a kook. Let's face it, a small number of liberals are kooks. (Don't anyone lie to me saying otherwise)

Maybe it's time to look at the glass of water a little differently.

Of course, we're not going to agree all the time. Of course, we're going to bicker. We're called human beings. We're born to be bitchy.

But I do have to agree on one aspect: We need to do a better job at identifying unifying themes.

Here's a shot:
1) We all believe that elected politicians and government officials should exhibit the highest degree of integrity.
2) We all believe that government operations should be transparent.
3) We all believe that the current U.S. administration has severely misplaced fiscal priorities, and progressives would do a lot better.

Am I wrong?

[pnwmom]

105. And we all believe that decisions should be guided by reason,

We all believe in equality before the law
in checks and balances
in the bill of rights. . .

We all believe IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE!!!

[Mr_Spock]

89. I've always liked the "it's like herding cats" expression

I think it hits the nail on the head WRT getting liberals to coalesce around any particular issue...

:headbang:

[Neil Lisst]

92. been there, done that

Over and over and over.

One reason Republicans get over on us is their ability to form a chain of command, and follow it. They're 500 miles down the road, and we're still hearing from delegations in favor of marching barefooted or in flip flops.

The ability of some progressives to parse doctrine is amazing. If you're not with us, you're against us. Who said that now?

I reject absolutes absolutely.

[pnwmom]

102. The problem is liberals try to be logical. And in this drive to be ever

more logical, ever more correct, we can lose ourselves in making finer and finer distinctions. And get in some awfully dumb fights. We need to learn to compromise with each other, to get more comfortable with reasonable margins of error. Forget about getting everything correct to the second or third decimal place! "Political science" is a misnomer. It's no science. It's the art of getting along. It's the art of giving a little, getting a little.

The fundies, the freepers, the "Bush base," on the other hand, don't care about logic. They make their own reality, or they follow someone who does. They cling to each other and their leader like iron filings to a magnet. And their brains might as well be made of iron.

[Neil Lisst]

121. it's true

They will always have their natural born affection for fascism to help them organize. We will always be plagued with too much democracy.

[DemExpat]

95. Know just what you mean here.....

great read, Will.

DemEx

[warrior1]

96. K&R my Friend

Mary

[mattclearing]

97. Did it occur to you that this post is a perfect example of what you are

complaining about?

:D

[K-W]

113. Indeed EOM

[ScreamingMeemie]

98. Admit it. You reposted it so it would be "fresh" for your blog...

On the upside, perhaps all this hatred we have for each other may one day accomplish something. It is funny that my most vociferous arguments are with fellow liberals. :hi:

*I was just kidding on that first part.

[spanone]

99. I hate Neocons More!.

n/t

[underpants]

100. How DARE YOU!!!

We make me absolutely crazy

[MadHound]

103. Republican! Freeper! Sellout! Whore!

LOL!:evilgrin: Don't let the bastards get you down Will. Idiots abound, and one is going to run across a few of them no matter what. Know that many people think that you are doing great work, and keep it up. Ignore the assholes and keep true to your own self.

[Bridget Burke]

104. A big book of New Yorker Cartoons taught me my first political lessons....

The book was in the house before I knew how to read. As I grew into it, it taught me about the sophisticated world out there.

It took a few years for me to understand these. In the interest of fairness, non-Liberals are included.



Unpaid ad--Get these or other images on t-shirts, in frames, etc.: www.cartoonbank.com/index.asp?mscssid=DTBKMKTB6KUJ8H17QK6VN33504SU9LUB&sitetype=1

[QC]

106. IMPURE!! IMPURE!! WILL IS IMPURE!!!

I always knew he was a freeper!

[K-W]

112. I dont understand why liberals are hated for being only human. EOM

[Vinnie From Indy]

114. Got all your bases covered there huh Will?

Wouldn't it all be such a wonderful world if Will Pitt didn't have to engage with anyone with an annoying personality or suffer the slings and arrows from all manner of people that have all manner of axes to grind.

You write,
"Liberals are the reason liberals lose elections nowadays."

Nothing like a little "conservative" simplicity to send us down the road to unity.

I was relieved that I didn't fit into the "Will Pitt" matrix of zealotry. I only disagree with 50-60% of what you wrote. Does that mean that I am allowed to scream at you if I only use minimal "rage"?
************************************************************************

The preceding was truth-cum-sarcasm combined with massive exaggeration.

K&R
:)

[sandnsea]

115. I owe you an apology

"I think we can get out, we have to get out, but some kind of coherent plan/timeline is needed, because 'Out Now!' makes a good slogan but slogans don't make coherent policy."

I read this when you wrote it, I must have forgotten this part. Yikes, sorry for the undeserved wrath a few months ago.

[ooglymoogly]

116. well will lets face it , some just like it hot

if you take a self righteous liberal or a self righteous Conservative, it is the self righteous part that really dooms the whatever to irrelevance. each to his degree...i just hate self righteous anybodies, the more self righteous the more i hate. if i had to converse with a self righteous liberal or a downtoearth conservative (i know they are as rare as hens teeth) i would choose the downtoearth conservative, but if i had to to be in a room of self righteous liberals or self righteous conservative you can bet your bottom dollar i would want to be in a room with us. but like you a downtoearth liberal is best of all and of those we have aplenty. i say this knowing we can all get a little uppity at times.

[geniph]

117. I just hate the ideologically precious

the people that believe in single-issue purity to the complete exclusion of anything else - in other words, thou must agree with them on EVERY SINGLE FRELLING ISSUE, or the screams of sell-out, DINO, corporatist, yada yada yada, will drown out the rest of your message. "Oh yeah, well, just because she agrees with us on 99% of the issues, this ONE VOTE proves she's nothing but a Freeper DLC troll, and I'm going to vote for her worthless opponent about whom I know absolutely nothing just because he says he agrees with ME on that 1%! So there!"

Insistence on ideological purity will be the death of us.

[Hardrada]

119. Capitalist!!

If you think you hate liberals, wait till we rads show up again.

Dare to struggle! Dare to win!

[Douglas Carpenter]

120. Eradicate World Hunger Now!!

Yes it is true that any noble goal does take some amount of planned approach. It goes without saying that the faster the plan can be initiated and implemented the better.

Some people cannot separate slogans from reality.

[obxhead]

122. AMEN, klink etc.....

:toast:

Well said and well articulated.

I now have one more hero :)