Back from a Sci Fin Con

[nadinbrzezinski]

and there are several things I noticed.

1.- The worm MIGHT (I use that qualifier now because I used to believe it, and now will only count on it when the final results are here) have turned. The amount of anti administration feeling was quite high

2.- Had conversations with FORMER DEMOCRATIC ACTIVISTS, who just like me reached the same conclusion a while ago... there is some level of collusion at the top. Sorry folks, but the gentleman I talked to, and his credentials are unimpeachable as a Dem (he, unlike me remains registered but is now highly apathetic about the party apparatus), reached the same conclusion I did after some folks thew in the towel after OH... I took longer to finally do such, and threw in the towel after Alito.

now here is here it gets scary, and I know many of the folks who are still in denial will not read to this point... just as me he has reached the conclusion that we are in pre-revolutionary times, or pre civil war times. Indeed all the mechanism of the state have failed, and as we both noticed, with the panels, discourse is impossible when you have otherwise intelligent people, seating across each other, using the same words... but alas the words mean a whole different thing to each individual. We are well past talking to each other.

Now for those of you who might decide to be a little scared, one of the panels was on whether Jefferson and Franklin were right regarding safety and liberty. Predictably, the programing person had two very qualified individuals (who did not count on the MA in History of the Enlightenment in the audience) speaking for the right. They had two less than qualified individuals speaking for the liberal position. Suffice it to say, things started to go south for the righties once I stated quoting chapter and verse of the US Constitution (I never knew I had memorized by now), the Alien and Sedition Act, and the US Patriot Act... yes I threw in the Enabling Act for good measure, as well as John Locke and Rousseau. Lets just say the two on the panel were not too happy, especially when I called all in the audience to either put up, or shut up, but if they don't stand up now beyond attending a stupid panel which was severely stacked mind you... then there is noting I can do, and I am shocked at how the citizens in this country are willing to give up their liberties.

Now going back to this conversation I had this morning with my fellow Dem... we both concluded that the point of no return is long past, and what form this revolution will take is a good question BUT, before the Denial is not only a river in Egypt crowd chimes in (which I am sure they will, they always do) The Demsn have not stepped into the breach. The Dems have not, with few exceptions and we know exactly who they are, cough conyers cough, raised the issue of elections, and the Dems are no longer acting like a bona fide opposition party.

Moreover, it was a fruitful discussion after all, here are the points the dems are refusing to do, or cannot do

We need to step away from what worked in the 1970s for mesaging... it worked then, but it ain't working now

Dems need to learn how to craft a message in a post industrial age... and they have not

Oh and the DLC is holding the dems down.

Suffice it to say... that was a very fruitful conversation for we also figured out why Bill Gates is buying property all over the world... can any of you say the words HEDGE BETS? That is what he is doing... for if this revolution turns into a very violent affair, a la French or Russian Revolutions he is making sure he will have a nice safe, and stable place to flee to.

Now there is more... he is a mathematician and we were talking about what the Bankruptcy Bill will do to the US Economy, can you say law of unintended consequences? Good, I knew you could. He, just like many others are seeing the clouds of another depression, and what we are seeing is (in case you needed to have this repeated to you) the greatest redistribution of wealth in US History and quite possibly the history of the world. Now here is another point that should worry all of you... the looting of the treasury is going to the Praetorian guard, who is no longer loyal to the Empire, but to one particular Caesar and yes we did make a comparison to Caligula and I am sure a Horse will soon descent on the Senate.

So enjoy it, Long live the Republic, for the Republic is dead...

[Cleita]

1. Right now the Republic is dead. Maybe it will lead to

a real democracy. I can't believe the world wants to go into another dark age.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Since one party, the supposed opposition party

has not stepped into the breach, it is a very good question what form that will take. Quite possibly we might choose that fork and descent into a new dark age.. hey Gregory Benford predicted the religious right winning the White House by 2012 and basically slashing all scientific knowledge... we were chucking repeatedly that Benford was late but Heinlein was 100 years late.

[Cleita]

4. I know.

:cry:

[Arkham House]

8. Have you noticed that Heinlein's "Future History"--

--has/is, broadly, coming true? A landing on the Moon, space travel, then its gradual extinction...a period of radical social dysfunction--the "Crazy years"--in the 1960s...with the end result a fundamentalist distatorship established in the early 21st century. Heinlein had his eccentricities, especially as he grew older...but he always loved liberty, hated tyrants, and believed in the potential of men and women to live their lives and even create a good society. God, I miss him...

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Heinlein got mentioned on a regular

basis, as well as Benford, I got a copy of Revolt 2100, the original paperback.. (as well as so much other sci fi goodness I am set for a while to read)...

I also mentioned to the guy, who was doing better bidness than the new book dealer, is that what is being put out today is swill...

[Mythsaje]

29. Heinlein's one of my inspirations...

always has been and always will be. Right behind him is Spider Robinson.

[librechik]

37. sigh--"rational anarchy" is a great ideology

for folks with integrity

Unfortunately that sort of thing is dying out rapidly.

Bob was too smart for the room, even including his flaws.

[Swamp Rat]

9. Heinlein ain't nuthin'!

Wait until dey get all H.P. Lovecraft on us! :hide:

[Octafish]

10. Mmm. Lovecraft.

At the Mountains of Madness

I

I am forced into speech because men of science have refused to follow my advice without knowing why. It is altogether against my will that I tell my reasons for opposing this contemplated invasion of the antarctic - with its vast fossil hunt and its wholesale boring and melting of the ancient ice caps. And I am the more reluctant because my warning may be in vain.

Doubt of the real facts, as I must reveal them, is inevitable; yet, if I suppressed what will seem extravagant and incredible, there would be nothing left. The hitherto withheld photographs, both ordinary and aerial, will count in my favor, for they are damnably vivid and graphic. Still, they will be doubted because of the great lengths to which clever fakery can be carried. The ink drawings, of course, will be jeered at as obvious impostures, notwithstanding a strangeness of technique which art experts ought to remark and puzzle over.

In the end I must rely on the judgment and standing of the few scientific leaders who have, on the one hand, sufficient independence of thought to weigh my data on its own hideously convincing merits or in the light of certain primordial and highly baffling myth cycles; and on the other hand, sufficient influence to deter the exploring world in general from any rash and over-ambitious program in the region of those mountains of madness. It is an unfortunate fact that relatively obscure men like myself and my associates, connected only with a small university, have little chance of making an impression where matters of a wildly bizarre or highly controversial nature are concerned.

It is further against us that we are not, in the strictest sense, specialists in the fields which came primarily to be concerned. As a geologist, my object in leading the Miskatonic University Expedition was wholly that of securing deep-level specimens of rock and soil from various parts of the antarctic continent, aided by the remarkable drill devised by Professor Frank H. Pabodie of our engineering department. I had no wish to be a pioneer in any other field than this, but I did hope that the use of this new mechanical appliance at different points along previously explored paths would bring to light materials of a sort hitherto unreached by the ordinary methods of collection.

Pabodie’s drilling apparatus, as the public already knows from our reports, was unique and radical in its lightness, portability, and capacity to combine the ordinary artesian drill principle with the principle of the small circular rock drill in such a way as to cope quickly with strata of varying hardness. Steel head, jointed rods, gasoline motor, collapsible wooden derrick, dynamiting paraphernalia, cording, rubbish-removal auger, and sectional piping for bores five inches wide and up to one thousand feet deep all formed, with needed accessories, no greater load than three seven-dog sledges could carry. This was made possible by the clever aluminum alloy of which most of the metal objects were fashioned. Four large Dornier aeroplanes, designed especially for the tremendous altitude flying necessary on the antarctic plateau and with added fuel-warming and quick-starting devices worked out by Pabodie, could transport our entire expedition from a base at the edge of the great ice barrier to various suitable inland points, and from these points a sufficient quota of dogs would serve us.

CONTINUED...

http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/mountainsofmaddness.htm

Hey Swamptavian!



Have a nice Cthulhumythos!

[Swamp Rat]

13. I read "At the Mountains of Madness" when I was 8 or 9

Scared the living crap outta me! ... the giant, blind penguins! ... pre-Cambrian, flying, multi-headed vegetable/animal monsters! :D

[Octafish]

14. Would never have thougth that.

Apart from the cosmic consciousness thing, that is.

[magellan]

2. I had almost the exact same conversation with family today

Weird. My father and husband might have been the RW on your panel, even though my husband is British and my father is a lifelong Independent like me. The only thing dad and I agreed on was that the Dems are no longer a functioning opposition party. But I had to quote the First Amendment to him to point out the dangers of warrantless wiretapping. He in turn asked me if I felt my "free speech" was affected. When I said yes he rolled his eyes.

People just don't get the "chilling of free speech" bit. That no one has to come right out and threaten you not to say something; if the threat is perceived and you're watching what you say because of it, your freedom of speech is restricted. End of story.

We also discussed globalization. My husband insisted this has been going on since time immemorial, that it was natural and nothing could or should be done about it. I argued fiercely that it needs regulation to ensure too many people here aren't losing their jobs to people over there...I was pooh-poohed and dismissed.

At the end of the day I came away from it all having been told I was a conspiracy theorist, that I shouldn't believe what I read on the internet, and that "lecturing" others wasn't like "talking" about things. In fact it was a debate, not a lecture, but because they didn't agree and I stood my ground I was labelled as "lecturing".

And these are two people I consider to be intelligent and open-minded! It's no wonder this country is going down the toilet if theirs is representative of the attitude most people have. They WILL NOT LISTEN.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. On globalization, they have a point, even if

they don't realize why... the process cannot be stopped, especially not now... but is the method to this madness that matters... as you pointed out

by the way, here is a piece of US History trivia... the Boston tea Party was an antiglbalization demonstration against the India Tea Company... and that small riot shares many things in common with Seattle. No they don't teach this in school, I know.

[magellan]

21. True, it can't be stopped

I do realize that. Globalization is inevitable and necessary. But as you say, it's the method. Some will be hurt even if it's done carefully and with an eye towards benefiting all. Unfortunately it's being managed as a free for all to benefit corporations leaving everyone at the bottom to suck it up, good or bad.

I hadn't thought of the Boston Tea Party in those terms before. Thank you!

[eridani]

48. Hurricanes can't be stopped either

But you surethefuck can build levees that work if you have a mind to. And we don't need to make everything subordinate to trade--if we want to put security, the envirnment and labor rights first, we can do that.

[Citrene]

6. What is the saying? "there are none so blind.............."? n/t

[Nomen Tuum]

7. Sadly, I see secession on the horizon

I really believe that if these trends continue, we will break apart just like Russia did.

[Octafish]

11. All is not lost yet.

But will be if they don't get the voting machines fixed.

Most importantly: A heck of a post nadinbrzezinski. If we can, let's work things out. If not, not even Switzerland or the Amazon can save Gates or even Moon, Bush and their ilk.

[Guaranteed]

12. Very nice post.

Was interesting to hear about your degree in the Enlightenment, as well. I'm glad you were there to put those fuckers in their fascist places.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. It is an MA in history

with an emphasis in the 18th century Mexican Enlightenment, mostly due to the subject of my thesis... the una knowledge intellectual father of Mexico. No, he was not as creative as Franklin, after all he was a priest... but his writings (for which he was the last person to go before the Holy Office of the Mexican Inquisition before it finally went away), made frequent references to the rights of man, and Rouseea and Locke... so he was fun. I still have the trial documents (copies) in storage somewhere. They are just fascinating.


Oh his name was Fray Servando Teresa the Mier Noriega y Guerra

[Richard Steele]

15. The "mechanisms of the state" have not FAILED...

They have been deliberately, methodically DISMANTLED.

Many that could not be stripped of their valuable parts
have been expertly sabotaged, so they APPEAR to be
completely intact while unable to perform their most basic functions.

Still others have been corrupted from within to the point
that they now work AGAINST their most basic mandates.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Ask the average american

they have failed, once you reach that point, pray for a roosevelt... but you might as well get used to the idea we might bet a mao.

[rman]

32. failed because they were dismantled.

no disagreement, i think

[jokerman93]

16. Bravo to you, sir n/t

[zbdent]

17. Soon, we will no longer be able to scream, for we will have

no hands to pull the duct tape off our mouths . . .

(thought I was going elsewhere with that one, eh?)

[ChickMagic]

18. I have been saying something similar for quite some time

I've been telling sympathetic friends that we are in a cold civil war.
Some poo-poo the idea, but others agree saying that they are at war with
their families (as am I). It's the brother against brother scenario all
over again.

It's scary, but somehow nice, to hear others say virtually the same thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yeah I have been saying this for over four years now... and

it started in '96 actually

[Armstead]

34. It started around 1975

Probably the first harbinger was the Energy Crisis.

That shook up a lot of preconceptions, which the Corporatist Oligarchs used to re-shape public opinon on a lot of issueslike globlization, workers rights, economic regulation, etc.

The mantra of "competativeness" and "free markets" replaced theconcept of "regulated free enterprise" which is something altogether.

[Lindsay]

22. Thanks for that phrase, "a cold civil war."

I hadn't thought about it in quite that way - but I've known that the government was at war against the people since Nixon. (Probably should have known at least since the Kennedy assassination, but was too young and naive to make the connections then.)

[ChickMagic]

26. I have a great fear that it will go hot

So far, it's still cold.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Just a question of time

I thought the whole mess in Florida with Shiavo was going to... also, as it was pointed out to me... it has been mostly cold... we have had bombings of clinics and things like OKC

[ChickMagic]

28. That's true enough

It's mostly cold.

[CrispyQ]

30. Cold civil war

"at war with their families"

Such a sad, tragic statement, one I am also living. I have no doubt that my mother would happily report me to the dissention police & smile her little "I-told-you-so" smile as I am carted off to the detention camps. Honestly, our world views are so contrary the only thing we have in common is history. It enrages me to remember boosh saying "I'm a uniter not a divider."

[ChickMagic]

33. It's the same for me

My dad would report me in a heartbeat.

[eridani]

49. Yep, look at the Bush approval ratings

35% may be low in a sense, but it's still way too high given conditions. When you see that 35%, know that you are looking at your future concentration camp guards.

[quiet.american]

24. I'm looking around, too, albeit without benefit of Gates' millions

The writing is on the wall.

[Greyhound]

31. Thanks for the post and another warning. Proud to give the 5th recommend

Obviously, many of us have been trying to warn people of the easily extrapolated consequences of the corporatist plan since they "came out" in 1980. I understood how people could not connect the dots in the early years, as it required folks to really pay attention to what they were doing and to project the likely results of those actions.

Time passed...

The 90's began with the hang-over from the greatest transfer of wealth to the ruling class in history (at that time it was) and the inevitable results of having 100's of billions, maybe trillions of dollars sucked out of the economy (even one as big as the US can't absorb a loss like that without pain), leading to the election of the next corporatist, Bill Clinton. His enthusiastic support and eventual signing of GATT, followed closely by NAFTA, in conjunction with the plans implemented by the WTO eliminated many of the options that existed to escape the acceleration of the looting of amerika. By this time we're really getting concerned and becoming more strident in trying to convince the sheeple that they are in peril.

The economy apparently recovers and the tech industry fuels the irrational flood of "little" investors in the stock market (this unimaginably huge influx of cash provides the means to fund the rest of The Plan). Clinton asks for, and receives, such landmark, pro-people legislation as welfare "reform", the H1-(b) and the (less publicized but even worse) L-1 visa programs, further de-regulation, and further consolidation of the corporate monopolies of essential services and national infrastructure (BTW he also cooperated with the record expansion of corporate welfare).

And yet, with all of this reported prosperity, we saw many more lay-offs and in ever larger numbers, continued loss of real income for the majority of working people, longer hours at work for fewer benefits, far greater economic inequity, and less employment stability.

So unfortunately, I can only surmise that at this point the worm is, sadly, irrelevant. We have reached the point where if the sheep were to rise up (highly unlikely) and demand their due, they will simply be re-classified from wool producers to mutton, and dealt with accordingly. Alternatively, they could vote to completely change their "representatives" (even less likely) with the result being the decertification of the election and a de facto oligarchy is imposed.

So I'm making my preparations for living the life of an off-the-grid, itinerant. Unless you are very wealthy, or are from the ruling class, I suggest you do as well.

[QuettaKid]

35. where did you hear this about Gates

buying up properties around the world?

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I was told this

and yuo can check on the web, he is... hell he bought things in India not too long ago

[Armstead]

38. Maybe it's De Nile, but I think you are overstating things a bit

I will agree that the country hs been on a dangerous and destructive course for at least 30 years. And that the Democreatic Party has become a poor excuse as the opposition to the GOP and right-wing corporate conservatism.

However, I frankly think that if there ever were the prospect a revolution or civil war, the vst majority of Americans would not know which side to choose -- which is exactly why I disagree with you that such an occurance is inevitable.

In other words, there is a contingent of hard-nosed right wingers, fundies and corporatists who would love to take us down the primrose path to a the combintion of a New Dark Ages and Neo-Feudalism inder a totalitarian system of control.

And then there's the opposition to that, which could generically be called the left.

And then there is the Vast majority of Americans who are at various points in-between and are divided in their beliefs and loyalties between those two sides. They may also find themselves in each camp on individual issues....Maybe they agree with the fundies that abortion and "permissive culture" is bad, but they are very liberal and progressive on economic issues...There's also a large share of the populstion that may be politically apathetic and "go along to get along"....until you take away their Playboys, and put the economic squeeze on them while they see the rich getting fatter, -- and then they're likely to become flaming economic liberals/social libertarians real quick....Or they are what you could call "enlightened capitalists" and middle managers who believe in free enterprise capitalism, but also cherish such values as community, integrity and altruism. And as a result, they do not agree weith the cold-hearted side of corporatist monopolistic capitalism.

In other words, despite the increasing polarization on either end, the middle is still the middle.

We've been in periods where the Oligarchs siphoned wealth out of the population and where fundies have tried to impose their personl sexual codes on everyone and the government overstepped its bounds. Rather than Revolutionary Change, it usually resulkted in the Moderate Middle asserting a balance through political pressure and reform.

My belief is that this will continue to be the way America keeps itself on a middle path.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. and my belief is that he is right

we are well beyond the point of no return, and what form that revolution will take is a good question. In fact... that revolution might be unfolding in front of your eyers, and yet you refuse to believe what you are seeing. As you said most people are sheep and are just going along, like sheep to the slaughter, and all we are seeing now in Congress is purely a simulacrum to keep appearances.

As they say... only time will tell... but future historians will have lots of fun, especially since there will be precious little primary sources, beyond the papers.

[Armstead]

40. Not being alarmist is not the same as not noticing

Not being an alarmist is not the same as ignoring or not recognizing problems and dangers.

Life is in a constant state of revolution on many levels, for better and for worse.There is never a stable state or a single direction.It's always zigging and zagging, and taking two steps forward and two steps back.

We hd an entrenched group of Oligarchs and almost no middle class 10 years ago. As a historian, I assume you have read some of the critiques that were written by progressives and reformers and otehrs back then. much of it could be written today in almost the exact same words....Since then democracy and economic justice have made tremendous gains and suffered serious setbacks.

Three years ago it looked like the majority of Americans were ready to appoint GW s King for Life, and Cheney as his vice regent. Now Cheney is the butt of late nite humor and Bush is at less than 30 percent approval.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. and macro trends show to us that we might be

beyond the point of no return... and dramatic changes, that most cannot even envision now, are now gathering like storm clouds in the horizon.

Have I used enough metaphors, but as a historian there are way too many paralles to the 1850s, the 1930s and the 1760s

[Armstead]

42. I agree -- but don't forget the 1890's or the 1950's

I guess my view is that almost every era is alwys grappling with powerful change and unforeseen storm clouds (or foreseen ones)or even unforeseen positive changes.

The present always seems more dramatic because it's when we are alive to experience them firsthand. And because the subsequent history has not been written yet, we can't put it into a predetermined context. Who, for example, could have foreseen in the days of sweatshops and massive populations of the totally neglected poor in the Robber Baron Era that in future decades there would be Social Security, Medicare and other protections as the norm? Or who in the sedate 50's could have predicted the wrenching and fundamental turmoil of the 60's?

Maybe I'm just being a Pollyanna. But the US has withstood a heluva lot over its history, and I prefer to believe that we have the power to influence events in a more positive direction as we always have. Sometimes it's harder than others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You are a Pollyanna

the US is also a very young country with barely a smidgen of history... what is worst, it is not exceptional or essencial... those two are part of the mythos. Sooner or later those trends will see will materialize in a nightmare of our own making. After all, those who refuse to learn from history and we have... Watergate and Iran Contra were not that long ago, and perchance care to tell me what Rummy was doing in the Nixon Administration? IT WAS NOT that long ago... but most people DON'T KNOW.

[Armstead]

45. I'll plead guilty. I'd rather be Pollyanna than a Cassandra

One thing I'll agree with you on is that peopel DON'T KNOW. That's a major problem with the media, and the Democrats are largely at fault in allowing deregultion to take away the restraints on ownership and accountability that did exist.

However, we also have the Internet today and otehr means of getting information out. The mere fact that we're having this conversation is one positive counter trend.

The US may be a young country, but we've played all of this out in the past, and in much more virulent form than tody.

I believe that you have to believe, and accept things as they are -- warts and all -- and deal with people on the level they are prepared to deal with, in order to keep the dark side from gaining supremacy.

Most average Americans are not prepared to accept the proposition that they are doomed to a start choice between Totalitarianism or Civil War. But they are prepared to support messages and actions that balance recogniztion of problems(or crises if you prefer) with positive and real answers to their concerns, both personal and social.

[Cleita]

44. I think what a lot of people don't realize is that the fifties

weren't as utopian as people think. The good things about the fifties came about because of programs FDR and Truman had put in place during their terms. Eisenhower had enough good sense not to fix what wasn't broken, like our Bushler is doing today, so there was a certain amount of prosperity. It was also easier to get a good education back then even if your family was poor.

Many issues were bubbling under the surface of that "Life With Father" world though, like racism, inequality between the sexes, and the draft. It all came to the surface with the Vietnam War. That's why there was the upheaval of the sixties. I speak from personal experience because I lived through it all.

You know we had no homelessness in the fifties and sixties unless it was voluntary, like being a hobo or a skid row bum, or even a hippie. If these guys got tired of their lifestyles there were places they could go to get integrated back into society. There were the poor, but they had places to live.

I can't believe how our quality of life has deteriorated since then with fewer and fewer enjoying a middle class life anymore. I think the institutionalized homeless situation shows just how much our democracy has deteriorated.

[lovuian]

46. I do think there is a Socialistic vs Capitalistic conflict coming

Marx is the predictor and he has been proven right everytime

the worker is eventually going to rebel and Americans are growing intensely angry at their lifestyles being taken away...

The gluttony and greed and arrogance reminds me of Marie Antoinette and the fall of the British Empire

The Irony of this whole thing instead of the Dictator Bush was to become and America being greater... He has weakened America and ticked off the public and military ... the apathy is turning to anger

thats actually a good thing...

[Pathwalker]

47. I've always thought globalization required The U.S. be dissolved.

For globalization to really work, the US must be brought down to the same level as all the other nations, otherwise we (U.S.) can control too much of the process. Why else would the media work so hard to convince us that "Americans have never been more politically divided, except just before the Civil War"? Because, that's what they're pushing, trying to convince us that we're either red or blue STATES, when most states are red here, blue there, and purple here and there. Their destruction of the middle class is integral to the plan, as well.
They don't just want Civil War, they need it. That's why all the "Christian Soldiers" stuff coming out of the churches, urging them to condemn anyone who believes differently.