Flame away if you must, but this is how I feel right now about some things

[The Straight Story]

this thread does not apply to all, see terms and restrictions at end of post, warranty void if your a repug. It is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, see below for why I posted it please before you rip my ass too much.

This thread on Lynndie England is an eye opener (and not the only one, but no time for proper search as am heading to the store in a few min)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2012185

So here is my take on it:
Tookie kills some people, starts a gang, and people want him to get mercy.
Lynndie puts a leash on some people, goes to jail, gets burnt and we think that is justice. Perhaps we should start intentionally burning people we don't like (ala torture) since we seem to think it is ok in this case (lack of compassion).

Now how else does this look? Killer good, have mercy - army criminal bad, let's hope they get hurt. Just love them military folk ya know...

I am all for justice, but I don't like it when my own hatred blinds me so much I become like those I detest. She did a crime, she is doing her time as prescribed by law, and while no one (I think) was calling for intentional pain to come to her it sure seemed like enough people were happy about it. If we say 'well maybe it will teach her a lesson' then we could say the same for tookie too - he killed, he got killed, he done learned a lesson.

ALSO - seen comments about how evil repugs are, people wishing them some serious ill (death, pain, and so on) and they see it (in some cases) as simple self defense against the horde of assholes. That mentality is the same one the thugs show when they talk about iraq, war, torture, et al. They justify their acts using the same logic it seems some here do - we hate, your bad, your a threat, terrorists are coming to kill us all (aka repugs), etc and so on.

Lastly - the end is near. We will be destroyed by terrorists (repug fear mongering). Or the apocalypse is about to happen (fundie fear mongering). We got to act now to save you. The threat is real.
Well - sounds similar to things I hear here as well. And not saying they ain't right, but it seems the message at it's core is the same. bush will destroy us, the environment is toast, the stock market is gonna crash, everything is bad and getting worse. We will save you and the world, and we will make people stop smoking and drinking and eating too much as well.
-Both sides seem to be selling fear, so much so I often wonder if there is anything in life not to stress over or worry about. Seems like all doom and gloom and talking about it all the time.

Sometimes I wonder if the only difference between some here and some there is url they are using and that they just change the names from terrorists to repugs.

Flame away - and please see disclaimer below:

terms and conditions: this post was not meant as flamebait, I don't like getting my ass ripped as I have other people doing that already. It is not a reflection on all or most of the people here, it is an observation on some (and perhaps I posted this to see if I am insane and the only one who sees it). This thread was meant to self examine and externally examine issues such as how we differ and when from others, and an inquiry as to if those differences are at the core or just in the terms. While the rightwingers see many of enemies as external (not all) do we see most of enemies within (ie, fellow americans, military, corporations, and so on). ONE MORE TIME - Most people here this post does not apply to, I love my fellow DU'ers and maybe I am just nuts or a little upset today (more about that on another thread) for personal reasons.

IF I have offend or hurt your feelings I do hereby apologize as such was not the intent (we save that for the lounge) :)

[acmavm]

1. I have no intention of ripping you a new one. In fact I'm rather grateful

that you posted what I've been thinking lately.

[Walt Starr]

2. I said it in that thread and I'll say it here, England was just a patsie

She was a convenient scapegoat who did not particpate in the most heinous crimes at Abu Ghraib. The perpetrators of the most heinous crimes will never be brought to justice.

I'm sorry she was burned, but accidents happen. Hopefully she'll have a speedy recovery.

[The Straight Story]

7. you got that right walt

The people way up the chain should be in prison - though I don't feel she should skate free either. Her employer should be brought up on charges, and the ceo of the military needs to be kicked out and thrown into jail.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. She is obviously a woman of limited capacity

put into a position of importance and sensitivity and I blame her superiors more than I blame her.

She is not blameless, but she is not where the buck stops. I hope she can serve her time and perhaps resurrect her life in a positive way.

Justice is so hard to achieve and I don't think we ever really know when we have achieved it.

[fishwax]

35. that seems so obvious

that i don't get why more people don't recognize it. Obviously all the photos of the torture haven't been released. It seems clear to me that the release of the photos we did see, several of which featured her, just established england as a convenient focal point for public outrage.

[cantstandbush]

40. Tookie said he didn't do it. Lyndie said she did. What am I missing? n/t

[mrcheerful]

3. I think your going through the new years blues like the rest of us.

You just went in another direction and tried to compare where we were like the other side. The biggest difference between us and them is most of us want to be left alone and live our lives as we see fit. The other side wants to control and make life safe at the expense of freedoms.

[The Straight Story]

10. Tell that to the blue collar folks at the Matchbox (bar)

who see the democrats as the ones telling them they cannot smoke in the bar, maybe soon not their car, that they have to register their garage sales, and that they are too unstrustful to own a gun cause they might go on a killing spree, and so on.

Yeah I am going through holiday blues (and will post a holiday blues thread later when I get back from store). But I felt this way before the holidays.

[mrcheerful]

19. Yeah I understand what you mean about the smoking thing

I'm just as sick of left wingers that bought into a republican run epa that convinced health nuts that second hand smoke was just as bad as smoking. The tests were flawed for the main reason, theres no clean test subjects to get any usable information from, from birth we are all exposed to toxic wastes, plus don't forget the atom bomb testing done in the 40's and 50's have spread a toxic cloud thats still being detected today. Yet you hear nothing about that. I'm so sick of make me safe types regaurdless of what side they are on, life is a risk live with it.

[OKNancy]

4. no flames from me either

I now know from my time here why some use the term "kneejerk"

[uppityperson]

5. Thank you for posting this.

There are some here, as everywhere, who do not show the coompassion they should, who are not as humane as they should be. Thank you for posting this as it needs to be posted periodically and especially recently. Just thanks, no flames from me.

[Common Sense Party]

6. I think you have many valid points

Both sides have their extremes, and soon they start resembling each other.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Where, exactly, I don't know.

One thing I do know: we're all Americans. This is a great country, regardless of who is running it at the moment. We are better than our political differences, and we should band together and do what's right for our country and our children, not our particular political party.

[catmother]

8. no flame from me. you said it well. nt

[nofurylike]

9. the death penalty must be abolished. period. if you want to learn more

about that, please look into it here:

http://www.ncadp.org/

eight more executions scheduled in january, and more soon thereafter.


ps - miss england got a fair trial. mr williams did not.


peace

[nofurylike]

deleted dupe

[Guaranteed]

15. England was also ordered to do what she did. nt

[nofurylike]

18. you're right, i apologize. i oversimplified. i do feel that those giving

those orders should be the ones on trial first of all.

i also feel that although we must hold our military to standards, and they must see prosecutions happen, that england's verdict, or at least her sentence, should be mitigated by the fact that she acted under orders.

thank you for that point, BullGooseLoony.


peace

[baby_mouse]

20. Well, yeah. That one has been discussed ad nauseam...

In the UK there's allegedly this "duty" to disobey immoral orders, dunno how much difference it makes, of course...

I just think she was a little too easily led. We have to take SOME responsibilty for our actions.

I'm adressing your post, not the OP, BTW

[Kingshakabobo]

33. Miss England got a fair trial. Mr Williams did not?????

Do you have the slightest idea how a military trial works???

I won't even go in to the 20 plus years of appeals that Mr. William's received.

[ThomWV]

11. I Can Only Explain Your First Example

In the first instance you gave an example I can give reason to - I think.

The reason so many people forgave the gangster, murderer that he undoubtedly was, is that he repented. He had taken his life and done good with it.

The young lady who was the torturer, or just molestor if you see it that way, was unrepentent even at the moment of her sentencing. Mix that with a healthy doese of trying to blame her misdeeds on others - who surely may indeed have blame to share - rather than any of the many alternatives did nothing to endear her with the public either.

That make sense?

[The Straight Story]

12. Almost

Tookie had a lot more time to think about it and repent. Give her time and maybe a light bulb will kick on in her head and she will understand that what she did was wrong.

[tuvor]

13. I thought he claimed innocence.

You can't repent if you say you're innocent.

Or am I missing something?

[nofurylike]

25. not "undoubtedly" at all. eom

[WildClarySage]

26. Except that she did in fact express remorse and apologized on the stand.

[Guaranteed]

14. Nope, you're dead on.

I thought the same thing.

[EST]

16. People react the way they do-

The way they are "thrown" to be. (to misquote a master)
Since we people are always living in the past, everything that happens is a surprise to us, in a way, and, as soon as we can recover ourselves, the real "us," the way we want to be, takes over and we shape our behavior, even what we allow ourselves to think, the way that a good, responsible person acts.
Some of us have basic behavior patterns that, for their own good reasons, are more difficult to shape quickly and there's a chance that we will say or do something that we, on further reflection, are deeply ashamed of and wish we could take back, although this shame sometimes evidences itself as defensiveness.
Sometimes that defensiveness and the initial desire to punish the perceived evildoer shows up in code words, like "Karma'" or other indications of the secret joy that the bad guy got his.
The measure of mature enlightenment can look like the ease with which we can get off the running horse of the way we're driven to be and assert our real, compassionate selves.
Sometimes the stink of those little slips will be with us forever, in print, the internet, and our collective memories and souls.
Join the game.

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. I am sorry about your personal issues: now, go fu*k yourself

Just kidding. :)

The size of DU is equivalent to a small city. Just like a small city, it is filled with a variety of people on here, including good, bad, ugly, and the freepers. We are well represented. Unfortunately, DU is a reflection of all of us. Some of us represent DU better than others. (Some would argue that I am not a good representation.)

Tookie versus Lyndee / Abortion versus Capital punishment / the end of the world is near due to terrorists versus Bush's evilness or incompetence or both / dehumanizing DU'ers versus dehumanizing freepers.

I believe this is a microcosm of our society today, in part due to the internalization of the propaganda "us versus them." Instead of looking for similarities between 'us' the differences are highlighted. Indeed, the differences are reinforced. Divide and conquer. It only helps the administration to continue the in-fighting. We are but mere pawns.

We have dehumanized them. Therefore we cannot see the similarities: Tookie and Lyndee are not similar because they believe in capital punishment--we don't, and they don't have a problem with torture--we do.

Just after 9/11 we were an "us," united in the shock and grief and anger. 'We' were attacked. That attitude does not help the * administration however, and had to be quashed. We walk right into the trap they set and fell for the propaganda of the us-versus-them mentality.

We refuse to see the similarities between us, in part because we are being attacked by them, and it is human nature to distance yourself from your attacker. Also, because to admit similarities, we would be required to admit our part in this mess and because, let's face it: they suck.

[acmavm]

23. Some of us are pretty bad too. Like this thread for instance...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5722641

[Evergreen Emerald]

29. Yes that is very ugly.

And it should not represent DU, but unfortunately it does.

[BlueIris]

45. Hee: "good, bad, ugly, and the freepers."

That's how I feel about the site's makeup.

[Poppyseedman]

21. The Lynndie England thread was quite

repugnant. You comments are right spot on

Just to add my own comment:
I think the fear mongering fundie threads are quite bizarre. I find it amazing that seemingly intelligent smart people buy into the "Theocracy is coming to American" via the all powerful, all encompassing, omnipotent religious right, that reaching into all aspects of culture and society. Run away and hide. Geeesh

The "Theocracy is coming to American" happening is so implausible it doesn't even deserve a response.

I continue to ask just "how" that will happen. I never get a clear response

[EST]

27. I like your thoughts,

and would like to add: It's very possible that those dangers that set people to predicting the worst and jumping off things would surely come to pass if it weren't for the doomsayers and town criers alerting us, canary in the mine fashion.
We need them all, the dogs barking in the night, the calm voice of assurance, and the crazy cousin, shying at his own demons.

[seabeyond]

22. i feel pretty consistent here

thank you for your post. i can have compassion for lyndie, knowing she was broken down, and put her trust in her leaders to do right by her. but she wasn't. they took advantage of breaking down a human, like they must do in military, to manipulate, lie and abuse their power. they did not serve her well. they are the ones i am angry with. yes she must pay the price. as tookie grew up in a world that basically did the same, and what he did was as reprehensible, and he paid the price, but still,...... i know his environment is what created this for him. and good for him, if after he was able to become aware.

i do not need, nor care to hate the repug. they are my brothers, father, and friends.

and i am not afraid of the terrorist, nor do i think a whiff of smoke will take me down

there use to be less extreme, more balance. today our world plays in extreme.

i am well aware of extreme. i grew up in calif, extreme liberalism, to move to the state of texas..........extreme conservatism.

has been my life. i have learned to sit in balance in extreme

i do appreciate your post. i think you are right on.

[Joanne98]

24. The Ballad of Lynndie England

The Ballad of Lynndie England
May 13, 2004
By Joshua Shelov

Once upon a time the king came down to the village and told the villagers that there was a monster living across the sea. The king said that an army had to be assembled, to bring across the sea to kill the monster. Most of the villagers immediately volunteered their children for the king's army. A few pretended to be childless.

One of the villagers was on the fence. This villager was an old soldier, who had spent many years of his life in battle. The old soldier was a good judge of character, and he knew the toll of war. He looked deeply into the eyes of the king and saw a man untested by the temperature of battle. The old soldier wondered if there really was a monster living across the sea.

The king saw the old soldier's hesitation and approached him. The king asked him if he had any children. The old soldier said that he had only one: a daughter. The king asked him to volunteer his daughter for the army.

The old soldier said, "I understand that there are times when brave men and women must stand up and fight. But my daughter is the only thing I love in this world. So I must ask you to make me a promise. Is there really a monster living across the sea?"

The king said: "I will give you my most solemn vow: I will personally bring back the head of the monster to this very village."

So the old soldier gave the king his only daughter. As they departed, the king assured the old soldier that he would not place a weapon in his daughter's hands. Instead, he would place her in charge of the prisoners. With that, they left the village, and went off to war.

A year later, the king returned to the village, bringing with him the old soldier's daughter. The king presented her to her father. Then the king began to leave.

The old soldier stopped the king, and reminded him of his promise. "Where is the head of the monster?" asked the old soldier. But the king departed without answering. The old soldier and his daughter were left alone.

The old soldier was a good judge of character, and he knew the toll of war. He looked deeply into the eyes of his daughter, and, in a sharp, sudden whisper, his heart told him that the king had kept his promise.

I know she was a patsy but this is such a cool poem I had to post it.

[stray cat]

28. I agree with a lot of your statements

Blind hatred depersonalizes everyone and infects extremists of any persuasion, left vs right, religious vs secular.

[Trillo]

30. No, you are not insane, at least not yet.

In regards to your phrase: "I posted this to see if I am insane and the only one who sees it"

There are so many mixed messages we're being given, perhaps the (eventual) intent of the hypocrisy is to drive us insane, to cause us to question ourselves instead of pointing the pitchfork of blame where it belongs.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. I Never Flame Intellect, Only Ignorant Foolishness. I think this thread

was written with the former :)

[0007]

38. Right on Toyota!

[foreigncorrespondent]

34. No flames here!

Firstly I am against the death penalty, and it is because of that, I was for Tookie receiving clemency. Meaning not freedom, just his life.

Secondly, I have not said a thing about Lynndie. I feel sorry for the woman. No one deserves second or third degree burns. And like you, I am disgusted by some of the comments I have seen towards both Lynndie and Tookie. We are meant to be liberals here, yet I feel I am on some republican forum when I witness the kind of comments you mentioned.

As for harm coming to repukes. I don't wish them any harm what so ever. I refuse to lower myself to their standard.

Good post, BTW!

[okieinpain]

36. good post. happy new years

[peacebaby3]

37. I couldn't have said it better myself! No flame from me. n/t

:thumbsup:

[davsand]

39. I can't celebrate anyone's pain.

While I am horrified beyond words at what has happened in Iraq and Gitmo, I honestly feel that withholding treatment and pain meds for that girl is an equally reprehensible act. I find it morally bankrupt to inflict pain on anyone--especially if they are in your care.

We are supposed to be the good guys but we sure as hell aren't acting like it in either case.

I won't flame you, Straight Story. I felt the same way when I posted yesterday in that LBN thread about Lynndie England.


Laura

[donheld]

41. I will rip you a new one only if

you can prove to me the old one is faulty. :evilgrin:

[txindy]

42. Sounds about right to me, except for one thing:

You've pretty much just scared me off The DU Lounge for life. ;)

[Raine]

43. However one feels

about what happened to her or anyone else that you like or dislike has nothing to do with what actually happens to that person. Your feelings are you own, pleasure or empathy for someone else's suffering doesn't bring about that suffering or stop it from happening.

[timtom]

44. I may disagree on one point or another,

but any disagreement is trumped roundly by your commitment to justice and fairness. Your post is one more positive statement on the side of good.

Thank you.