Want to boost a young girl's self- esteem?? (Body Image stuff)

[SoCalDem]

Have her visit this website and browse through the old clothing patterns from the "olden days"..50s, 60s, 70s, etc some from before too

Make sure she READS THE MEASUREMENTS that correspond with the Dress/pants SIZES..

The next time her catty little friends brag about how they "had to go down to a "00" to get a dress that fit"...she can remind them that until fairly recently they WOULD have been shopping the "big girls" department..


These patterns date bake to the "pre-lycra/spandex" days.. Fabrics were NOT a bit stretchy back then..the clothes were full of darts, fitted waistbands, and metal zippers that would BREAK if you "forced the issue"..

http://www.cyberattic.com/stores/cupid/catalog/20th_Century:Mid-Century.html

a sample... size TWELVE.. they don't print it on the package, but the waist measurement would have been about 24-25 inches..



This google page has links to articles & pics about Vanity sizing and how it's harming young girls and women who keep chasing the numbers down the hill..

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=vanity+sizing

[w8liftinglady]

1. Funny you should mention this-body image is a big thing with me

some more links
http://www.adiosbarbie.com/
a body image site for every body. No matter what your size or background, we hope to inspire you to love your body through thick and thin!


http://about-face.org/
USA Today
"About-Face aims to combat negative and distorted images of women. And its Gallery of Offenders names names. But the site comes with a caution: 'Extreme sarcasm. Enter at your own risk.' "
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/2001-05-07-hotsites.htm

http://www.gentletouchsweb.com/links/
Many Of These Links Can Be Very Triggering.
I Urge You To Visit These Sites With Caution.
Remember To Be Gentle With Yourselves

http://www.bodypositive.com/
BodyPositive® Boosting body image at any weight

http://www.realwomenproject.com/
Imagine a world radiantly lit by the true beauty and wisdom of women in pursuit of health and justice for all

http://www.somethingfishy.org/
Dedicated to raising awareness and providing support to people with Eating Disorders, and their loved-ones... since 1995

[w8liftinglady]

3. a few more links

http://www.caringonline.com/
It is our desire for Caringonline to be one of the best web sites to find the resources to help you, or someone you love, who suffers from negative body image or any of the following eating disorders-Anorexia, Bulimia, Binge Eating and Compulsive Overeating.


http://www.gurze.com/
specializes in information about eating disorders including anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, and binge eating disorder, plus related topics such as body image and obesity.

[GreenPartyVoter]

90. Galleries of women of all sizes

http://curvy.hotusa.org/curvygalleries/curvy/contemporary.htm

[Bucky]

142. HA! I get it. It's a "big thing"! Hee hee.

Don't laugh at me. I'm fat, too.

[debbierlus]

2. I missed my era - in the 20s & 30s I would have been a pin up goddess

Now, my curves are 'overweight'.

Siggggggggggggggggggggh

[catzies]

4. No sweetie you have it exactly backwards. You are FABULOUS

it's the fascist beauty standards that are wrong.

[w8liftinglady]

6. You are absolutely right.

I battled an eating disorder for years,trying to be "perfect".I am a strong,muscular woman.No apologies.

[tavalon]

12. No, your curves are curves

It is our society that is wrong, not you.

Our society is very mentally ill and among its many ills is anorexia. But mostly our illness is one of broken spirit.

[w8liftinglady]

13. I agree...

we had been reduced to the sum of our parts.

[KittyWampus]

74. Yes, that's why I abhor Reductionism in ANY direct sphere of human

experience.

We are not machines so why identify with them?

[JuniperLea]

134. Me too...

And Marilyn Monroe would be considered chunky now.

[emulatorloo]

5. kick and nominating n/t

[SoCalDem]

7. Sandy & the size 0-1

Sandy's Stats:
Height: 5 2
Weight: 95 lbs
Measurements: 34-25-35
Dress size: 0-1
Shoe size: 5-6
Hair color: auburn
Eyes: brown

Sandy would have been a size 14 if this was 1968

[pitohui]

10. not even remotely true

i was alive in 1968, a lot of us were, and i can assure you that a skinny little twig w. a 25 inch waist was not a size 14, unless you are conflating it with a GIRL's size 14 which is smaller in the bust than a junior petite size 6, i know this how, well, because i wear a size 6 but i long ago discarded my last GIRL's size 14, but i can wear an adult size 14 as a tent!

girls won't listen to us if we just make up stuff out of a whole cloth, they're not idiots

[SoCalDem]

11. Look at the size charts copied from actual patterns and of the era

Junior petites were 3-5-7-9-11-13.. cut shorter in the rise (pants) and torso..narrower across the shoulders.. and of course a shorter inseam..

I worked in the trade all my growing up years when my aunt owned a boutique, and did the buying for the store for several years..

Misses sizes started at 6 and were incremented in evens by 2.. the couture stuff we ordered sometimes was sized down as far as a 4..

Some clothing lines beagin the "creep" by sizing 4-6...7-8...9-10 etc..

Sweaters were usually sized Sm-Med-Lg..but some of the pricier ones like Tami Separates and Talbotts started at 36 and ended at 40..

[seabeyond]

16. you are talking misses and junior petites? that is not woman

anyway. go into the misses and junior petite today and though bigger, cause women arent the average 5'2" size 5 foot anymore..... you will find that to fit child mostly, not women. why are you representing junior petite as norm in the 60's/. am i missing something???? and then say this is to make girls feel better in ody image,. wow. not a concept here. and if you think some young girl will feel better seeing how much smaller women were in the past, way off the mark on that too. dont get this whole thread, nor you point

[pitohui]

19. i am certainly a grown woman

i buy my clothes based on size and what fits, guess what, honey, there was not some law passed in 1978 to execute all the short women, we are still alive and we still have to wear clothes

it is hard enough to find petite clothing w.out having to listen to the idiots who don't believe that we exist at all and that all clothing for small women should be styled for pre-teens

however i VERY MUCH agree that the whole point of the thread is whacky as hell

i can't help but observe that young ladies today seem to be, well, pretty broad in the beam but i don't assume it would help their self-esteem if i actually said so

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I'm with you

I'm a short girl too and not exactly skinny. It is hard but I love going to "Target" because they have great clothes in my size. :D I don't have to feel so ashamed.

[seabeyond]

33. ashamed

freedom, for what. this is the reality of this thread in body image. why in the world would you feel shame for anything. the beauty of who you are. perfectly imperfect. and nothing less by gosh. i have huge ass shoulders. when i was young i felt bad. i was a really really good swimmer, but i was the odd ball. my mom tells me, girls are buying all their clothes with shoulder pads, they are trying to create your body. made me feel better. made me learn to accept what i was given, in grace and love.

i too was on the old eating disorder for more than a decade. i threw away my scale a decade ago. horrble thing, just horrible. wink

[seabeyond]

30. deleting because i thought you were op and you arent

just did a little of a huge brush there, but i think i put norm in my post. not saying there arent any small women. but surely an issue with you. we all have our prblems in fitting into clothes. they want to give me tons of hip in pants. i dont have hip. go figure. wouldnt call you an idiot though if you talked about womens hips.... seeing how most women have them

[foreverdem]

57. I wish I had that problem

I have way too much hip. And not enough waist, plus being 5'1" doesn't help. I have a terrible time finding pants and jeans that fit me right. Some petites fit ok, but shopping is not a joyful experience for me.

[seabeyond]

59. mine is just the opposite

i have to buy something this week for vacation, lol. i always come back with nothing. then i am inbetween sizes on top of that. it is all a bitch. i hate shopping. hate spending money. my favorite shorts are cutting off hubby old jeans when he was smaller, and roll hemming them. i wear those all summer. shopping is a nightmare. but after reading this thread, us women are pretty good at dissing ourselves, regardless of our body. after more than a decade of eating disorders, i threw out scale and leave it to nature. a much easier way to live. still hate the shopping

[hyphenate]

67. I, for one

was dismayed when I lived in Southern California for so many years, compared to living in Massachusetts.

I found the total lack of body shape for most girls to be offensive--most of them were completely identical--somewhat taller, but all androgynous in shape; most were like stick people. I'm sure they fit beautifully into their 1s, 3s and 5s, but they lacked the fundamental trait of individualism. In essence, they all emerged from the cookie cutter and were essentially only good for one ideal.

Moving home to Mass., I suddenly noticed something about the girls I saw everywhere: they were short, tall, plump, thin, but never could they have been accused of being from the same mold. It was definitely refreshing to see diversity after the "perfect" figures from L.A. In fact, while I'm sure all those young ladies were nice girls, their complete and utter blandness, along with their identical shapes, were distressing in the vein that these girls were/are offered up as an ideal. Girls who actually had a body that was in any way different were finding it very difficult to feel good about themselves. They don't realize that genes play a very important role in how a body looks, and they do bring on disaster by trying to attain some ideal which they can never reach.

Moreover, the personalities of these child-women were hardly worth crowing about--vapid, self-centered and mostly selfish, they would make good stepford wives, but little else. My younger niece is a prime example of this scene: not only is she from the cookie cutter, but intellectually, she is pretty much falling in front of the Bell curve, and not after it.

I was never thin nor tall unlike my sister. While she might have enjoyed the social scene a lot more than I did, I would not trade my nerdishness, red hair, eyeglasses and intellect with her for any reason in heaven or hell. She is, exactly to the day, 5 years younger than me, but after years of drinking, alcoholism, smoking and a lot of indiscriminate sexual encounters and multiple partners, she looks older than me as well. She might have been perfect for a certain lifestyle that doesn't allow for diversity, but I know that it will likely kill her before me.

Girls just have to be proud of who and what they are--if men don't like the millions of wonderful girls with different shapes, sizes and attitudes, tough shit. Real men want real women, not androgynous airheads.

[seabeyond]

69. good for you. that is where i grew up, so i can certainly relate

to what youa re talking about. horrible to be in that environment end of 70's beginning 80's as a teen and 20's. totally messed up my head and took years getting out of unhealthy habits to feel like i was ok. and such a waste of time. what it did give me, now that i am in 40's is the firm knowledge that i wiill NOT do that to myself as i age. not going to fight it. 50 and i look 20..... bullshit. i will be happy if i look 50. i dont need to have a fake illusion put up as my goal. i am livin life, in all its sags and bags

[Chovexani]

136. ...

Before you start bashing all women of a certain body shape as androgynous airheads, realize that for some of us that is our body type. I'm 5'9", 105 lbs, flattest chest you can imagine and I look like a boy. I didn't starve myself to get that way, I have a freakishly high metabolism that simply won't let me be any heavier no matter how much I eat or refuse to exercise.

Jesus fucking Christ, when will misguided people realize that bashing thin women--many of whom can't help our goddamn size any more than larger, more curvy women--is just as harmful as the media trying to make all women into Twiggy. Yes, I am pissed about this because you hit a nerve with me, I just spent two weeks on vacation having damn near everyone I ran into asking me if I had an eating disorder and/or telling me I needed to gain weight. "You're a nice looking girl, you'd look better if you put on a few pounds." Well fuck you, I can't.

It's hard to be proud of who you are when people can't seem to make women feel better about themselves without trashing you.

[Oilwellian]

141. I had the same issues...

when I was younger. I was 5'7" and weighed 105 throughout my 20's and 30's. I learned in my 40's though that your metabolism really does slow down and it's much easier to gain weight. My philosophy has always been, work on who you are on the inside and it will shine on the outside.

[slide to the left]

113. Petites

Banana Republic has great petite tops and they alter pants for free.

[incapsulated]

52. THE AVERAGE HEIGHT FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IS 5' 4"

Sorry for yelling but this drives me crazy. Not only is there pressure to be thin, now people think that everyone who isn't model tall is short as well! I've heard people call 5-5 "short" when it's actually one inch taller than average! And the jump to 5-4 is recent, before it was 5-3 and change. (I know people are getting taller, most kids seem huge to me.) 5-2 is hardly "child size" it is only two inches less than average.

[seabeyond]

55. i went to bed feeling almost bad but.... in my defense woman is the reg

averages size, isnt it. misses is for the young, right. petite is for the small women. and women is for the rest of us isnt it???? cause that is why i chose women. i spent two nights ago hitting every clothes website and was ingrained in my head from what i remember that is how it was classified.

i am really surprised 5'4" is average. i am 5'8" and i have women and young girls, niece and her friend being two. and another friends 13 yr old. i am in texas, women and girls are big, lol lol so it seems to me. i am always running up against women i look up at.

my mom was 5'2" and i forgot about the little outburst like this about being short. doesnt even enter my head that shorter or smaller women have a "thing" about it. it took me years to get over the fact i was tall and broad shoulder cause the "thing" was to be small. i guess women body image may be the grass is always greener saying.

[w8liftinglady]

56. Me,too

I've been really athletic all my life,and have really big arms,legs,abd back.In street clothes,I just look big.I actually used to starve myself to try to get that small,petite figure.Now,I just accept and enjoy:)

[elehhhhna]

63. Try being 6'1" size 8, 36 inch inseam. GOOD LUCK finding pants

back in the 70's. LOL.

Thank GOD they sell longer pants now--my girls will never know the horrors of homemade "slacks" EUuuu.

[elehhhhna]

64. ps I was a 10/12 in the 70's & early 80's--now an 8 --

sometimes a 6, and my body has not changed one damn bit. The numbers have.

[seabeyond]

66. i htink so too. that is what i have found. n/t

[Virginian]

95. Try it on! It is the fit, not the size.

We were poor when I was a child and pre-teen and my mother had to sew to help make ends meet. I didn't have a store bought skirt until I was in 5th grade. I was better dressed than most, but I didn't know it until later. She was a pretty good seamstress, she made a lot of wedding dresses in her evening and weekend time. Her job as a secretary paid the rent, her sewing bought us a few extras. Back then, a pattern size was probably a size higher than off-the-rack clothes. It still may be.

I remember having a mini dress in size 5 and a suit in size 15 when I was in High School in the 1960s. Ok, maybe the 15 had to be taken in a little. What fits is a matter of how you want it to fit.

In high school, my twin friends tried to avoid identical clothes. At Easter their Mom would insist they dress alike. So they compromised by getting one dress in a 7 and the other in a 9 so that the dresses fit them differently.
We would frequently share clothes. The three of us were around 5'4" - 5'5" and weighed between 110 and 115. We mostly wore sizes 7, 9, 8 or 10. I wish I could get into any of those sizes now.

[wildeyed]

138. Exactly.

I was always an 8, now I am a 4-6, and I am older and a bit broader than I was back in the day. I kept trying to buy 8s for the longest time, couldn't figure out why everything hung on me.

I don't really understand this numbers thing on the clothing. I am a tallish, strong woman. I have hips and wide shoulders. My skeleton, minus all flesh, would not fit in a size 1, although if this keeps up, I might one day. The truly petite women will be wearing 0000000.

[seabeyond]

65. bah hahahah. lol lol i bet. oh, isnt diversity glorious

that we are all so uniquely different and our own. and that being the case, nigh impossible for clothes industry to accomodate us all

thanks for sharing

[Patiod]

68. I don't ever remember being a size 8

I was 5'11" and weighed 112 in college, but I swam, and needed a 10 or 12 to get enough shoulder room and arm length. Things always sort of HUNG on me. And pants were a nightmare - I won't wear cropped pants to this day - they remind me too much of being mocked in elementary school for wearing "floods" (as if they even MADE pants long enough).

I don't have much sympathy for my shorter sisters - at least every store in America carries petites, and they can hem things. Not that many stores carry Talls, and you can't let down what ain't there. Someone mentioned Talbots upthread - HA! I've never been able to fit into Talbot's, even when I was skinny!

Sewing was the only thing that saved me - "homemade" looks a lot better than anything I could buy off the rack in the 70's and 80's (God bless the internets!) I even made my formal dresses in college, and they went to more formals than I did!

[seabeyond]

71. i was a swimmer too, lol lol shoulders wow. i would have to get a

16 to fit my shoulders and chest in a dress, and bags everywhere else. horrible today, to match my upper with lower. ti buy a tshirt today. xtra friggin large and even then sometimes to tight in chest and shoulders. horror story. teasing. i just have to go shopping for a trip to the beaches. oh joy. like this is what i want to do next week

i looked on line with every store and cant find anything out there. and...... i really want a swimsuit that is long enough for my body and doesnt become a thong when it isnt suppose to. wink

[elehhhhna]

78. Here you'll find some great looking long-torso swimsuits:

http://www.swimsuitsforall.com/Shop-list-114.html

So where's the vacation?

[seabeyond]

81. you.... are so kind. i found some on lauren, $200. bah hahahah

no way i was going to spend that kind of money. generally i go to the speedo type, lol lol. but..... getting a little old for those. gonna check it out. thank you

i am going oto akumal. i dont like to go to hot, humid, beach, mexico, cant to to, cant drink the water, no veggie and fruit. i am a wuss. doing all the things i dont like. i like mountains, cabins, cool, little towns to wander thru, lol. with my in laws, bah hahahaha. oh joy. think i am going to take 1984 with me,.... and a couple other controversial novels, so we have something to talk about for 8 very long days, wink

appreciate your help. gonna check it out

[seabeyond]

94. fit boobs and cover butt

i am so excited. look at all that material in those suits. have you gotten this in past. worth 50?

appreciate

[elehhhhna]

133. no, referred by a friend

I wear 2-pieces and will until the general public stops me...but that preference for 2-pieces is probably due to bad childhood wedgie-one-pieces (I was BORN tall).

I figure if it doesn't fall apart it's worth 50. lol

[Blue Poppy]

105. LOL at your cropped pant comment!

I am with ya sister! I am 6'2" and FORGET about finding anything that fits. I weighed about 175 pounds, wore a 12 and people thought I was "skinny". And if you are lucky enough to find something in tall that doesn't look like what Dorothy would wear on the Golden Girls, you pay through the nose for it.

What I have found is that it is more socially acceptable to be a petite woman. The comments I have gotten in my life have astounded me. People just walking up and saying "wow, you're tall". How would someone feel if I walked up to them and said "wow, you're fat"? When people ask if I played basketball, I tell them I actually was a jockey. They get this blank look and then realize they said something stupid.

Mens jeans have been my lifesaver!

[seabeyond]

107. you are funny

the jockey comment. you know. jsut amazement, cause i am not short, and i am not 6'2" so when i have a woman taller than i the first thing out of my mouth is you are tall. i would laugh and laugh with the jockey thing. and really nothig personal on the tall thing. jsut stupid. will try to keep it in in the future. i say you are short too by the way

being almost average on height, there is a lot on both sides i had not a clue.

but then dont we all have our own cross to bear.

[Patiod]

122. I got some milage out of the basketball player line as well

Was at a popular singles place (when I was much younger) and a short, yellow-tied yuppie approached me (after alerting his friends) and he said "Are you a basketball player?" and I said "No, are you a jockey?" His friends were practically on the floor, laughing!

Another time we were at a place called "the Amazon Club" and these two little South Philly boys passed by, and one said "I bet that's one of the Amazons right there," and I said "and what are you two? Pygmies?" Mean, but they started it. I'm like Cyrano de Bergerac with tall remarks - there's nothing I haven't heard, and nothing I don't have a comeback for!

It is SO MUCH more socially acceptable to be a short woman - guys LOVE short women. The fashion industry might like tall girls, but in real-life, men generally prefer petites for relationships. In my long experience on the dating scene, the only guys who are interested in dating women taller than themselves tend to be egomaniacs. I ended up with a weightlifter who isn't much taller than me, but he's a lot BIGGER.

Was home sick one day watching "Oprah", and they were trying to get her friend Gayle a date. Someone in the audience said she was "limiting herself" by only dating men as tall as she was (or taller). Oprah agreed. Gayle said "well, you can say that, because you got that nice tall Steadman!" and went on to say that unless you're tall yourself, you wouldn't get it.

My lifesaver has been thrift shops in wealthy areas -- I buy brand new men's jackets and blazers, and they fit like a dream. AND they're better-made, with all sorts of neat pockets.

[blueamy66]

130. I'm coming in late here...

Just wanted to let other tall girls know that I buy my jeans at Gap, Lucky and Victoria's Secret. You can get 36" inseams there!!!

[raccoon]

76. Thank you! And why is being short considered such a negative?

Why do people consider short to be inferior? They don't SAY that; they don't have to. Their tone implies it.

THIS drives me crazy.

As a kid and young adult, people were always telling me I was short. Especially when I was a kid, I had a complex about it.

As an active adult, I don't hear this any more (thank goodness).

[seabeyond]

77. do you think that maybe it might be what you are hearing

but not what is saying. the op took junior petite and misses. arent those both kid department? isnt it? and dont they have petite, womens, and large..... in the womans department. isnt this how they catagorize it. i mean average isnt 5'2". average is 5'4"PER POSTER, I SAW ONE THAT SAID 5'4" and one that said 5'5"

the only negative post about shorter people, are the shorter people, dissing shorter people. i at 5'8" did not diss short people. i think you ought to refect on what you are doing to you in nonacceptance.

look what we do to ourselves. nah, i wasnt dissing short or small or tall or large or average woman.

but to be fair.... the original poster poster on to kid/teen departments. and that was my point, not size of what a "female" is suppose to be.

[raccoon]

87. I wasn't referring to your posts,

nor, for that matter, for anything in particular in this thread,
but to people in general.

Think of the tone most people have when they say,

"He/She's tall." vs "He/She's short."

Maybe I should've posted it to another thread...

[seabeyond]

89. hey i was a girl that was too "big", son is a boy that is too "petite"

yes to short and tall. i am taller. i feel odd when a woman is taller than me. i dont particualrly like it...... it is like eeeew. but also, i know that when i am a woman that is smaller i then feel massive..... that isnt too fun either

what i have learned in time, is not to have the eeeewww feel regardless. and that is the best.

but i agree, conditions from society everywhere, both male/female and alll such bullshit. and stupid. and a waste of time. my mom short,..... loved that woman. made her brave, fiesty and put up with no shit....... the best

[pitohui]

103. because it is a negative

look i'm short, there is nothing positive about it

i'm not as physically strong, there are things i can't do because of it, equipment is sized for larger people so it's more difficult for me to operate, hell, until recently w. the dawn of theatre seating i couldn't even see the damn screen in a movie because rude people always wanna sit in front of the short gal at the last minute, even little things like i can't see the parade, i can't see when i'm in a crowd

i'm targeted by bad guys because of my size, twice i've been attacked in a crowd in the middle of the day as a snatch and grab because i'm perceived as even pickings, once i was even slammed down in the middle of the street, who would try that in a crowd w. a large obviously powerful woman?

and of course the relentless scorn and contempt of the public, too many people assume that short == child and child = stupid, we all know that tall people get offered more opportunities and better pay than tall people, many doors are closed to me simply because of my size

being short is inferior, it stinks, if i had a kid i would do whatever it took to make sure the kid was at least of average size

and for every bit of hell i've gone thru because of my size, for a short man it's even worse

i won't deny that being short stinks, it does stink

but i do object to being told i'm not a real woman, that the only real woman is the fat woman or the tall woman or the long tall woman, real women have curves my ass, the truth is like it or not real women come in all sizes and we'll continue to come in all sizes until the day we get some better genetic engineering -- at which point there will be no more short people, for who would choose to be short?

[seabeyond]

106. do object to being told i'm not a real woman

if you still are projecting that i was saying short women are not real woman,......the absurdity, non truth adn just plain factually wrong in that sttement, and you are still pissed thinking that is what was being said, then i suggest you want to sit in the anger. yes to all you say above about the bigotry of.....

but that is not what i said.

let your anger be at reality, but it is not reality that i said short women are not real women. and that..... i wont stand for, in manipulating word.

[Patiod]

123. One positive - men do find petite women more attractive

they might like to look at tall women in magazines or on TV (Jenny McCarthy) but in real life, believe me, they are really put off by them. It's funny - it's all in your perspective, but I've always found men tend to treat the TALL women as "less than womanly" because we don't "fit" right - we're not tilting our heads up at them like they expect - they find it threatening. Which is good for my own personal security, but it made the old love life hell when I was single.

As for the other stuff, though, I feel for you. And you're not just whining, pitohui -the stats oprove that tall people DO get better pay, etc. I sometimes think that some of sexism is sizism - like you said "short=child" and "child=stupid" which is ridiculous, but I think some guys have internalized it.

I always make a point to sit in the back of the theater or on the side, of if I HAVE to sit in front of a short person, to slouch down in my seat (which I do anyway). In photos and in crowds, I'll stand in the back, so as not to block those behind me. And I try to keep my limbs to myself on airplanes, and not assume that because I'm bigger/taller, I deserve more seat space so I'll take up some of yours!

And why do they stack things so high in the grocery store? Little old ladies have no qualms about asking me to reach stuff, but I feel for my tiny friends who don't like to have to ask for help (and why should they?).

[pitohui]

102. i will admit to being below average in height, but thank you incapsulated

i know i am short, i struggle w. it every day, but it does hurt to be constantly teased for being tiny, it hurts to know that i am perceived as more vulnerable and thus i'm hit on more often by creeps and targeted more often by potential bad guys, it just hurts to be dismissed as a doll or a child and not a "real" woman as another poster put it, it hurts to not have the physical strength of the average person or the ability to reach or do things other people do easily, dammit you don't choose to be a certain size, genetics illness and diet in your youth decide the matter for you

yet people just assume that if you're tiny, you are there to be pushed around and teased, after all, what the hell can you do about it if you don't like it?

the pressure to be tall is especially unfair when there is absolutely not a thing you can do to change it

at least if you're chubby you have the option of liposuction and gastric surgery if nothing else but if you're short what? no option really

i've heard of korean women getting their legs lengthened surgically but i believe this surgery must be undertaken when young and it just sounds risky to me

[Clark2008]

83. I'm 5'1" and I don't have to shop in the Missus section.

What planet are you living on?

[seabeyond]

88. op took two departments that i thought were kid/teen and represented

it as comaprison to adult departments. which would include petite, womans, and large...... isnt that how they catagorize it. seems like when i get on the net department stores. i would imagine you go to adult section finding your fit

that is all i was saying, and so many shorter women hae come on here saying i am attacking shorter women. but.... isnt misses and junior petite both kid/teen section.

if not, i am wrong. so....... tell me, but that isnt attacking shorter people

[SoCalDem]

131. OP, here.. The pattern and sizes in OP are NOT "kid-teen"

but standard patterns from when sizing was standardized..I have BEEN almost every size in the chart(except for the TALL)

That really was ALL I intended to point out..that the phony numbers attached to current sizes are pretty meaningless to those of us "of a certain age".. That was ALL I intended... but apparently Madison Avenue has really messed with our heads more than I thought, since it turned into some hurt feelings & misunderstandings. I sewed in the era of standardized sizes, I was a buyer for clothing back then, and fitted and sold them, so I had a reference point to start with..

Since I quit "fashion-shopping", I mostly buy jeans & tee-shirts, so none of it matters much to me, but I have friends with daughters..and I see these poor girls trying to figure out what fits them and agonizing over the fact that they had to buy a LARGE or that the jeans they bought last month were a 4 and they "want to wear a 2".. :eyes:

[pitohui]

17. sorry yes i wear a junior petites 7 and a misses size 6, mixed them up

but the fact remains that both of these are bigger than a GIRL's size 14 as you should know having worked in the industry

the items in that post are clearly hoaxes or fakes, as is the oft-told fib that marilyn monroe was a size 12, well, maybe when she was puffy and on drugs in her later years but the marilyn we see in pictures no, that was a tall story that gained currency on the internet and refuses to die for whatever reason

come on, did you ever sew, you must remember the real size charts and patterns you used, those are good fakes, but no, a 25 inch waist wasn't a size 12, you know this!

in any case, seriously what is your point because it doesn't seem to be good for anyone's self esteem to tell them oh honey your size 0 was really a size 12 in 1955, that seems a counter productive message at best and a way to encourage even more vomiting in the school bathrooms

we were skinnier than you young whippersnappers and we walked to school ten miles in the snow uphill both ways too!

[SoCalDem]

26. My POINT was that the downsizing is RECENT

anyone who orders vintage clothing in "their size" ends up with something they would NEVER fit in..

Sizing remained fairly consistent for MANY years ...until the fanatical dieting stuff started..


The point that I, and others, are TRYING to make is that when a "normal sized"..non dieting girl goes shopping these days, a size 2 with a 30 inch waist is an artificial size, and she should KNOW it....Girls who wear size 12 & 14 in todays sizing are smaller than they think, and yet their anorexic/bulemic friends make them think they are fat..so they diet..

It's too bad that women's/teens/girls sizes were not more like men's sizing, which has always been measured in inches..

[latebloomer]

60. I'm not following you

If sizes today run larger than the same sizes used to, why are you saying that girls who wear 12 or 14 in today's sizes are smaller than they think? I would say they're LARGER than they think. And that is not helpful.

[seabeyond]

72. i think i get it. i was confused too. a decade ago i wore 12. today 10

or 8. and my size is the same, weight the same, a little baggier, but the same. i think this is what the op is about so saying those in 2 today would have been a 6 or 8 before. the industry change size. which i have been consistantly noticing. i never grabbed 10. and NEVER (except during bulimia years) grabbed 8. today i have to pull in to dressing room from 8-12

[seabeyond]

73. this is the lesson i would give girls. see industry fuckin with your

brain..... dont let society do this. go get clothes that fit....... and play

[smirkymonkey]

119. That's how I read it - isn't this bad news?

[land of the free]

100. Ok, so is your point that young girls should starve themselves

more, since a size 2 is "fat" compared to 70s standards?

As a person who works with pre-teens & teens, I can't tell you how much this thread distrubs me. I regularly see 10 & 11 year old kids who see and refer to themselves as "fat" because they are not underweight. I teach music lessons, and in the past 10 years, I've found myself often asking girls when they don't feel if they ate any meals in the day. I usually see the kids in the evening - and often the answer is "no" or "I had an apple today". Many pre-teen and teenage girls starve themselves to try and be thin.

Perhaps your intention is instead that kids don't brag about their clothing sizes. Not a bad idea - but, I think that this information would have a very negative affect, making them feel "fat" for wearing a size 0 or 2. That is a very dangerous thing to an impressionable young girl.

[w8liftinglady]

118. me,too...hence the links I posted

as a young teen and early 20's woman,I had a terrible eating disorder,that ran the gamut

[land of the free]

120. Yes, and I meant to thank you for your links

those are the types of information we need to give to young girls.

Congratulations on conquering yoru eating disorder. From friends who have struggled with these issues, I've heard it's a difficult task (and for many people a life-long struggle). Good luck to you, and thanks for helping others with this disorder.

[SoCalDem]

125. Not at all.. Just that "sizes" are an arbitrary label PUT on clothing

and there seem to be NO standards anymore.. Brands seem to slap any ole number on things, and society/advertising has lowered the bar so much, that I have seen size 12 as the cuf off point for where "plus sizes" start...

For older people like me, this seems just plain mean, since sizes now vary so much..It doesn't take much for a young girl to start thinking she's "too fat"..

It's no secret that people are getting bigger, but the clothing manufacturers have always stigmatized females when it comes to sizing.

I don't know if European sizing changed like ours did..

[SmokingJacket]

109. Sewing patterns still maintain some of the old sizing.

My skinny size 2 friend was appalled when she took up sewing to find herself wearing a 14! (She's also tall.)

I don't see how any of that would boost anyone's self-esteem though!

[October]

148. Agreed, I was alive back then too...my mom was a Junior 11/12

And she was never under 125-130 pounds at 5'2".

My best friend's older sister borrowed clothes from my mom. They were the same size and the girl was 16!

Sizes have changed, I agree, but that was a really bad example.

I'm a size 2 or 4 at 5'4" and 115 pounds and I used to be a 6 or 8. (I thought I'd have to weigh under 90 lbs. to ever wear a "2" but I bought my first "2" a few months ago. Weird.)

[marzipanni]

15. I have a (triple decker chocolates gift) box full of old dress patterns

left in my husband's grandparents house, now our house. These are patterns used by his grandmother , mom, and aunt. Here's one for a junior miss dress size 16, stamped Oct. 30, 1945. HUGH?! No ma'm: bust 34, waist 28, hips 37. Size 18 in this pattern would be right for me, though I wear size 10 or 12 now! I would feel gypped paying for a size 0- it sounds non-existent!

[pitohui]

25. where were they printed? great britain? EOM

.

[marzipanni]

36. U.S.A. -McCall Corporation. Also Butterick, Advance, and Vogue n/t

[SoCalDem]

37. Don't forget simplicity

I think I even have a few of those from back when I used to sew

[badgerpup]

54. I remember sewing class late 60s

All the girls wanted to be into Miss Petite rather than Girls patterns...think it went Girls, Miss Petite, Miss.
I was a big kid, so I was in the Miss section...couldn't see any advantage, more darts and chit to fiddle with. :shrug:

(posting cos I want to check out these links...but later)

[bleedingheart]

145. I have a vintage 1940's Vogue pattern and her measurements

correspond to a size 10 even if you use today's standards. This pattern was released by Vogue as a promotional...I am going to dig up another..

She is no 0 or 1.

[bleedingheart]

146. I pulled out another Vogue (woman's pattern) and she is a size 12

based on a really cool dress from 1931.

[w8liftinglady]

8. needs one more recommendation...please

this is an important subject for our collective children<boys and girls alike>

[w8liftinglady]

9. OK..one last link

http://www.bibri.com/home/index.htm
Every day millions of men and women engage in combat with themselves. They fight a constant war between the image they see in the mirror and the image they believe they need to obtain. We name their struggles: Anorexia, Bulimia, and COE. We may whisper as an emaciated girl walks past us on the street, or we may laugh as a larger size man or woman struggles to fit into the bus seat in front of us on the afternoon commute. We might even hear a person throwing up in the bathroom stall. But I wonder if we honestly understand why this battle began, what it's really like for those who are enslaved, or how we can work together to end its tyranny.

[phrenzy]

14. Sometimes I almost feel guilty...

For thinking my thin girlfriend is hot...

And to be totally honest, if she was fat, I'd still love her, but I wouldn't be sexually attracted to her. Should I feel bad about that?

Ugh - sometimes, I honestly feel poisoned by the climate that I live in, with no recourse.

[seabeyond]

18. nor more than i would feel bad if my husband was fat and out of shape

dont men have an equal responsibility to keep themselves in shape? do you put the same pressure on yourself to keep you figure?

[phrenzy]

42. Go to the gym every day!

Unless I am sick or stuck working late - like tonight :(

So, I do certainly feel an equal (or greater) responsibility to work out since I am more susceptible to gaining weight than she is due to our (large) age difference.

[pitohui]

22. you can't change your sexual orientation

what you think is hot is what you think is hot

you can't change it by effort of will

what is really sad is the person who can't be attracted to the older person, whose fetish if you will is for the young, the fat partner can in theory lose weight and appeal to the thin fetishist again, but the older person can never grow younger and so the person w. a fixation on the young is doomed to a life of upheaval and ever-changing relationships

life's a bitch and then you die, i guess

[phrenzy]

44. That's ME!

Oh man - Well, I mean - that's my situation right now - She's only 22 and I'm 34 ... god it hurts to even say that! :(

Anyway, but the truth is, it has nothing to do with her age - although, of course, I kind of get off on the idea that she's a 'young little hottie' or whatever, luckily I do not believe it is a 'fetish' or pattern with me. My last girlfriend (who was a beautiful yoga instructor) was 40 - and I was crazy attracted to her.. I've been all over the map with age.. In fact, the girls I like have all looked very different.. some asian, some american, some german, etc. They all had their unique beauty.

[marzipanni]

48. 34 is hardly old, honey

My parents were married at 26 and 38 and stayed married til my dad died at 75.
After about 20 years and two kids my oldest brother and his mate (also 12 years apart) split up and she married an old friend of theirs who's my brother's age...not any younger.

[KittyWampus]

79. Can't change what you think is hot? The guys I'm attracted to now are

entirely different then the ones I fell for as a young woman.

And a big part of that was, in fact, due to effort on my part after looking deeply into what was attracting me and why past relationships didn't work.

But then, that was real effort based on my desire to CHANGE and to approach Life on a deeper level.

[JNelson6563]

96. Amen sister!

My taste in men has completely changed and for the better I must say! Looks have a lot less to do with it now!

For instance, first question, What are your political leanings? heh ;-)

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Each person is attracted to someone for some reason

I think you're probably attracted to her because of your feelings. That's how I am. Sure, I like to look at guys but I don't become attracted to them until I start liking them. :) So don't feel bad. Your feelings play a big role in your attraction.

[incapsulated]

29. It depends on what you consider "fat"

I'm sure you've seen pictures or films of say, Marilyn Monroe? Do you consider her fat? Because most women her size are made to feel fat and unattractive in our culture, even though she was a standard of beauty and womanly sexuality in the 50's.

No one is saying that everyone has to be attracted to everyone else, no matter what they look like. Just that this society has gone insane with it's fascination on excessively thin women, and superficial appearance in general. There will always be women who are naturally very, very thin, or very tall, or very pretty. To take all of those rather unusual attributes and make them an unattainable standard for most women and girls is the problem.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. I've noticed an escalation in sizes shrinking in the past 3 years

I used to wear a 3 in low-rise Levi's and now I wear a 1. I've actually gained weight and my old 3's are more snug than my new 1's. How insane is that?

I've not noticed this as bad in slacks and skirts, but in the jeans market it's getting insane.

Thanks for posting this! Having battled an eating disorder when I was young, body image is a topic close to me.

K&R

[incapsulated]

31. You know what, I think even shoe sizes have shrunk

Either that or my feet are shrinking because I've been rather surprised to learn I'm a full size smaller.

And I know I've lost weight recently, but I don't remember having such small sizes fit me even when I was thirteen for chrissakes.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

34. I think alot of it is brand specific

I could be wrong, but so far that's been what I've noticed. I've got a list of three different sizes in different brands that I keep on hand if I'm buying my daughter clothes.

[incapsulated]

35. According to this article, it is

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-04-19/whitford-vanitysizing

Whatever the answer, the Gap is one of a number of major U.S. retailers that have been trying to influence shoppers' sales decisions by offering inflated sizes. Across the country, at stores like DKNY, French Connection, Old Navy and J. Crew, retailers are giving relatively large clothing a lower, more flattering size label, a practice known in the industry as "vanity sizing."

An informal survey showed that the shopper who buys 34-inch waistband jeans is doomed to be a size 10 if she opts for Calvin Klein--but could be as little as a 6 if she tries the Gap's “modern fit” flares.

At Anne Klein, meanwhile, someone who squeezes into a summer skirt with a 30-inch waist is considered a size 6--but will drop down to a size 4 at Nine West. And if she heads to French Connection she'll be even more pleasantly surprised: There, a similarly sized skirt is marked a size 2.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

38. It makes me wonder how far this can go

When are American women going to slam our fist on the table and scream ENOUGH!

We're making ourselves sick in attempts to live up to unrealistic standards, and then passing those same unrealistic standards on to our daughters.

[SoCalDem]

39. Haute Couture ALWAYS was "cut generously"

The claim was that with generous seam allowances, it made alterations easier, but the initial sizing was generous too because someone paying hundreds(back then) of dollars for a yard and a half of fabric, could at least get flattered by thinking they were a size 6.. It created brand loyalty too.. If Givenchy pegged you are a size 6, then you would return to that line because of it...and if you gained a few pounds, you could have it altered and still be able to wear the dress..

When I was young, most of my clothes were the same size, no matter the brand...but in recent years, I have clothes in about 6 different sizes, depending on the manufacturer and style..

My own mother was horrified when we went shoe shopping together after I was grown up.. I asked for an 8 and a half, and she said. "YOU don't wear THAT big of a shoe size ".. I told her I gave up "being a size 7 shoe..ages ago, when I decided to be comfortable".. She "wore a size 6 shoe" her whole life..even with the bunions and corns and sore feet.. No one convinced her that she could wear confortable shoes and no one CARED that her feet were not "small"...

Madison Avenue has been brainwashing women for too long.. I am glad to see girls with big feet and comfy shoes..

[incapsulated]

41. yes...

They say this in the article as well, the higher end labels are the worst with this sort of thing. Although the GAP is also one of the worst.

As far as shoes go, I've been a size 9 or so for a long time. I used to feel self-conscious about it, but now I'm all about comfort and don't give a shit. Mostly because my feet are wide, not long. If there are larger widths, I could usually go down half a size. But recently size 8's were fitting me in some stores and I know my feet aren't shrinking!

The clothing sizes threw me off though, because recently I lost a lot of weight. (mainly due to illness not deliberate dieting). When I went shopping for new cloths, I thought that I had lost a LOT more than I have, lol. I was confused because even at my slimmest, I was no size 6! It is true that the Gap is doing this because I found that the most confusing since I buy jeans there all the time and suddenly the smallest sizes were fitting me. Then I would go to another store and the sizes made more sense for my weight.

The pressure to be super thin combined with the country becoming increasingly overweight is going to drive everyone insane. The pressure on young women and girls to be perfect or to even have completely unnecessary plastic surgery to meet some ridiculous new "standard" is going to create a very fucked-up generation and it makes me furious. What was the whole movement for, in the end, if women are now spending the paychecks their mothers and grandmothers fought for them to be able to earn to mutilate themselves to some idea of female physical perfection. :(

[marzipanni]

49. AHHHH.....comfy shoes

When the dogs bite and the bees sting I think of my favorite things- and one of those things (or should I say two?) ia a pair of comfortable shoes.

[Bridget Burke]

121. To be picky, Haute Couture is made to measure.

Nowadays, it's far too expensive for anyone but the very rich. However, the expensive lines of Prêt-à-Porter (Read to Wear) are definitely sized differently than the cheaper. A "6" at Nieman's might well be a "10" at Target.

Concerning shoes--at an art opening, I saw a (casually) well-dressed couple a few years older than I. The lady wore orthopedic open sandals & her feet showed the results of many years in too-tight, stilleto-heeled shoes. She did have a big smile on her face. All sorts of shoes are available nowadays--some can be comfortable & still stylish.

[marzipanni]

50. Yeah, my practical mom, who is now 91

told me about 15 years ago that she thought clothing manufacturers were putting smaller sizes on clothes so that women woud try something on and think "wow! I must have lost weight , I'll have to try on a smaller size" then, feeling good, they buy it.

[latebloomer]

61. You are right!

I just noticed that recently-- trying on shoes, size 8s are now too big for me. I really don't think my feet have shrunk.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. Don't forget Marylin Monore

Wasn't she like a size fourteen and she had the eyes of a president! In today's sizes what would that be?

[pitohui]

23. she was a size 8 in today's sizes

this is the myth that will not die, makes you wonder if people have eyes in their head at all

[FreedomAngel82]

28. That's still not bad compared to what

actresses wear today. They wear sizes zero's and one's.

[marzipanni]

40. Around Monica Lewinsky's size?

DANGEROUS
CURVES
AHEAD
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

[incapsulated]

43. Remember the fat jokes about Monica?

Made me want to kill, I swear to god. :nuke:

The only thing that surprised me about Monica was she wasn't a blond, lol. I thought Bill liked blonds. Well, he obviously appreciates a curvaceous woman. Unlike some "comedians" who should rot in hell in a vat of... boiling fat! :D

[SoCalDem]

45. Apparently , 120 is the limit these days for women

no matter if you are 5 feet or 5'10"..

I saw that Lohan girl on tv today when they were going on about the boob thing.. Her skin on her back HANGS on the bones.. There's no flesh under the skin..

It's sad to see her now.. She used to be cute, and now she's just another skeletal wannabee movie starlet trying to get her picture in every magazine she can...

as much as I don;t like Brittney Spears, at least she never starved herself to be reed-thin

[incapsulated]

47. You know, I'm always out of the loop

On any hollywood or tv celeb stuff, because I stopped paying any attention to it years ago. But one day I sat watching this E channel thing on Hollywood stars and wannabes starving themselves to be thin and wanted to puke at the end of it. Jesus tapdancing Christ, these women would be called dangerously anorexic and put in a hospital not too long ago! Even someone who I believe is naturally very thin, Nicole Kidman, got this makeup gig and started to starve herself even thinner. It's insane and horrid.

[Hippo_Tron]

159. Trust me, nobody finds annorexic Lohan attractive at all

Guys used to be obsessed with her. Now when they see a picture of her it's one cocaine joke after another. I don't understand the blonde hair, either. There are plenty of blondes, redheads are much more rare.

[DarkTirade]

176. I saw a picture of her recently...

now her hair is mysteriously black.
Well, at least I can look back and remember how she WAS cute... :)

[marzipanni]

46. The poor guy . He also likes fat thighs, thick ankles

and high IQs.

[seabeyond]

92. that pissed me off so bad. who the fuck were these ugly dogs

wolf wolf........ teasing that poor girl. and we watched what it did to her. oh it was horrible. in weight watcher advertisement. oh and even to paula and face reconstruction,.... oh oh oh and tripp. if that isnt indicitve of the bullshit women go thru.

i gotta go shower and get onto my day. but has shifted to interesting thread.

[Hippo_Tron]

160. One difference, Linda Tripp deserved it

[seabeyond]

170. she deserved ridicule because she is aging?

bullshit. not ok. wrong. go after her behavior and what she did. and dont tell me she was ugly cause of who she was, she was ugly cause she had weight on and she was getting old, hence ot be taken seriously they had to do a make over for our society to hear what she was saying. to sell her.

everyone of these women were taken for their decade and trashed as female for a sickness in our society.

monica, 20's. not skinny enough.

jones, 30's. plastic surgery, not appealing enough

tripp, 40's. aging. sags and bags


we have set women up to feel failure every moment of their live and it is a waste of time, energy and life. fuck that shit

[Hippo_Tron]

173. And society should not have taken her seriously

Tripp was just as responsible as Ken Starr and the GOP for starting this bullshit monica-gate that wasted millions of taxpayer dollars and prevented President Clinton from getting anything done. She made herself famous at the expense of her country's well-being. She deserves every bit of abuse that she gets.

[seabeyond]

174. this isnt what the argument is, now is it. this is shifting the argument

we arent talking about whether the woman should have been taken seriously or not, nor about her part in clinton affair, or anything else either. we are talking about societies behavior with women. all three age groups were beaten down because of societies expectation and demand of these women. regardless of their role. itf you cant get beyond partisan on this issue, then you feed the issue.............. you play the game

[saracat]

114. But Monica was fat! but she was attractiveAnd Now she is huge!

I am really sorry for her .She has emotional issues.And I can say this as I have had issues with food myself.Still do.But it doesn't help to deny a weight problem when it exists either.

[incapsulated]

155. I disagree totally!

I haven't seen her recently, but when Monica first came on the scene I saw a cute and pleasantly plump girl. Curvy. Cute chubby. Fat? No. Not to me and I'm no stranger to fat, I've been there. That is nothing but a crazy society talking, to me. She wouldn't be considered "fat" in the fifites, so why does she "have a problem" now? She wouldn't be considered "fat" in Africa or India, what does she "need to face" here? Other people's bullshit, in my opinion. She doesn't have any fucking problem. As I said I don't know what she looks like now, I'm going by what she looked like at at the time.

[saracat]

175. Whatever. She was fat or "plump" to me.

She had a gorgeous face.Whatever. She would have been considered "fat " in the fifties too.And I have weight issues too.Whatever. Fat is fat. and no, I don't think Marilyn Monroe was "fat" either. But Monica was "fat" and all my empathy won't make her less so..

[Ava]

32. cool link

i always find it amazing how the media drives celebrities to anorexia yet when they turn anorexic, the media jumps all over them for having eating disorders. it's like a never ending cylce of unacceptance.

[DarkTirade]

51. I always like to bring up Marylin Monroe...

gods she was hot. Not so hot now I'm guessing, although I haven't seen her recently to be sure. But since I'm not a necropheliac, I'm guessing I'd find her not so hot now. Just an educated guess.
But back then she was freakin' hot.

[formernaderite]

144. Marilyn wasn't fat at all...

she was petite by todays standards...just busty. Saw a dress of hers on display, it was pretty small.

[DarkTirade]

162. Still, compared to the skeletal models they put

up for display now...

[formernaderite]

165. Marily wasn't a model, and models were always thin

Marilyn was built like that young actess Scarlette Johanson. Who is also nice and curvy, yet slender.

[saracat]

53. Oddly, junior sizes seem to have gotten smaller!

I was 115 and 5'6 in high school and my hips were a half inch bigger than they are now at 35 inches and I wore a junior 5 in everything. I can't even pull on a junior size seven anymore. Go figure. Yet a four in Misses is too big for me!

[LibDemAlways]

85. The junior department is a nightmare for me and

my 13 year old. She no longer fits into anything in the kid's department and the junior clothes are mostly for anorexics (never mind that they are also mostly inappropriate for a 13-year-old).

[wicket]

58. Thank-you!!!!

From the size 18 :)

[distantearlywarning]

62. I noticed this phenomenon a few years ago.

In my senior year of highschool, I weighed 112 lbs at 5'5". My measurements were about 34-24-34 or so. At that time, I wore a size 6-7 in women's clothes. Today the same measurements are considered to be a 0-1 (as evidenced by the "Sandy" picture up thread).

It's just one more example of how this culture is obsessed with thinness. It makes me angry and sad.

Last night I was watching American Idol and they had Carrie Underwood on singing her new song. When she won last season, she was a pretty, healthy, average sized girl. Since she signed a record deal, they've apparently made her lose weight. She looks pretty now too, but unfortunately, she also now looks just like every other little blond starlet. There's nothing interesting or different about her anymore. It's like they took a real, attractive person and made her into a cookie-cutter Barbie doll, straight off the Hollywood assembly line.

[saracat]

116. I always thought Carrie Underwood was cookie cutter. Odd!

She was one of the blandsest looking people I have ever seen. I tivod last night. I will have to watch!

[electron_blue]

70. how is this pattern going to help? I think it would just demoralize them.

[seabeyond]

75. lol, i went back and looked at picture. damn right. they hollowed

the women out. there isnt even a body there. bah hahahahahah. wow. didnt even look. dont look anymore. bullshit and makes me feel like i dont measure. wink. funny. good point out. probably why so many came into this thread, glanced at picture and said what the fuck. use this to make our girls feel good. ya right.

[SoCalDem]

128. People who sew have always used MEASUREMENTS..not the "size"

People today are fixated on the size number.. That's a PHONY number anymore, because they are no longer standardized, and mean NOTHING..

If you go to a men's department they have the same sizes they always have had..

34-waist 36-inseam... It's not called a 2 or a 6 or a 10

shirts are measured neck-sleeve for long sleeved, and there are many combinations available

..........

Women/girls/teens have always been made to choose clothes that "assigned an image" to them before they even tried it on..

"junior-petite"
"junior"
"missy"
"misses"
"women"
"plus"

and to top it off, in recent years, there is NO STANDARDIZED sizing to go along with those names..

[Clark2008]

80. And every man I know likes a woman with a little meat on her bones.

My husband says he first approached me because I had the CURVES he wanted to get a hold of. :blush:

Thanks for posting this. I am always reminded when I think I'm getting too "thick" that Marilyn Monroe was a size 12 to 14.

Great stuff.

[seabeyond]

82. my hubby does not seem to notice 5-10 here or not here. lol lol

it has been so peaceful for me to let that go and just have fun

i hear ya

[Clark2008]

86. Sorry I fussed at you up thread about the "short" crack

but I could just murder Randy Newman.

:rofl:

(He sang, "Short People" btw).

[seabeyond]

91. k.... loll lol so that was about what 70's.... my brother teenagers

6' at least at that time. and i had past mom. we were so mmmmmmeeeeaaaaaaaaan. we use to sing the song whenever she would ask us to get something from the cabinet. but but but it was all in love and giggle. also,...... she use to go to beach adn pass for, well..... have all the guys hittin on her in 30's as i was an awkward teenager. she kicked ass. wink. and clark, as you see, i do understand where you are coming from..... i always respect and empower my shorter sisters........ they are awesome, they have had t become, because of our society, so really there in lies the grace, of being a mere 5'1"

i enjoyed this thread though. the diversity, and the opportunity to express the challenges we face, now and in younger years. this is what will help our younger generation of daughters.

[Clark2008]

112. Yeah - I think it was the 70s.

My husband and I heard that song the other day while watching VH1's Top 100 One Hit Wonders. I cringed.

My husband LOVES the fact that I'm a pip-squeak. He says I'm the girl he always dreamed about: short, curvy, long curly hair, intelligent and a Democrat. :)

He must be telling the truth because he asked me to marry him four months after we started dating. He said he wasn't about to let me slip by.

I'm cooing all this for a reason. LOL. In relation to this thread, I don't really ever have any self-esteem issues anymore because of the wonderful man I married: the way he looks at me makes me believe I'm beautiful, no matter how yucky I might feel on any given day. :loveya:

(Pssst... and he's an intelligent hottie, too. Former Army Ranger and Special Forces, specializing in communications - he speaks three languages, fluently. :9 )

[Misunderestimator]

84. How exactly would that boost a girl's self-esteem?

I would think that showing her that she would actually be wearing a size 14 in those days instead of the size 10 she's in today would do the opposite. What am I missing here?

I get that you suggest she could use it as ammunition against other girls who brag about being a size 0 (though I don't quite understand how that would increase her self-esteem to exact revenge on other girls), but how would it not backfire when they say to her "well, YOU would have been a size 14 (or 18 or whatever)!"

[readmoreoften]

149. exactly

i don't understand this post either.

[Odin2005]

93. I find super-thin women ugly.

The fact that Marylin Monroe would be considered fat nowdays is sickening. Fat means a big belly, not curvy hips. I cant stand my generation's (i'm 19) obsession with thiness.

[SpecialK]

98. That's a relief to hear. :-) n/t

[SpecialK]

97. What to do????????????

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with some of the posters here wondering how these patterns would make any of us feel better or more confident about our weight/size. While I understand what SoCalDem is getting at, it seems to me that this could have a reverse effect on those of us who do not know what women *really* looked like in the 50s & 60s...

I know that young girls today are facing a serious crisis and I also can't pretend to know what the answer is. I am, at 27, married with no kids, by all accounts happy and successful in work, play and life in general. I have a great husband who loves me the way I am and makes sure to tell me so. I am a religiously healthy eater and I excercise - in general I am in good shape, but I am tall and 'big' and wear a size 14.

And even though I have a Master's in media studies and KNOW and UNDERSTAND and have read extensively about body images & eating disorders & media representation, etc., I still find myself obsessing about my size. I'm embarrassed to admit how much time I spend thinking about my body, food, etc. I am perfectly aware that it is ridiculous and a waste of my time, energy and mind's creativity...yet sometimes I feel I can't stop the vicious cycle.

That said, I think that us women (even the most together, intelligent, and aware) are all caught up in this to some extent, which truly has me afraid for the younger generation and my own potential future daughters.

So what do we do? Where is the national discussion? Where do we start? What can we do for ourselves? Certainly open to suggestions here.... :-)

[Missy Vixen]

99. I'd like to dedicate the following to every woman on this thread

and to those that love them...

PHENOMENAL WOMAN

Pretty women wonder where my secret lies
I'm not cute or built to suit a model's fashion size
But when I start to tell them
They think I'm telling lies.
I say
It's in the reach of my arms
The span of my hips
The stride of my steps
The curl of my lips.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That's me.

I walk into a room
Just as cool as you please
And to a man
The fellows stand or
Fall down on their knees
Then they swarm around me
A hive of honey bees.
I say
It's the fire in my eyes
And the flash of my teeth
The swing of my waist
And the joy in my feet.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That's me.

Men themselves have wondered
What they see in me
They try so much
But they can't touch
My inner mystery.
When I try to show them
They say they still can't see.
I say
It's in the arch of my back
The sun of my smile
The ride of my breasts
The grace of my style.
I'm a woman
Phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That's me.

Now you understand
Just why my head's not bowed
I don't shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud
When you see me passing
It ought to make you proud.
I say
It's in the click of my heels
The bend of my hair
The palm of my hand
The need for my care.
'Cause I'm a woman
Phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That's me.

-Maya Angelou

[marzipanni]

111. Thank you, JulieRB, that's a powerful poem

and it brought a tear to my eye.
I think Maya's great attitude reflects and nutures the better body image black girls have-

Mirror, mirror
A summary of research findings on body image
<snip>
Ethnic group

There are some exceptions to these rules. Black and Asian women generally have a more positive body-image than Caucasian women, although this depends on the degree to which they have accepted the beauty standards of the dominant culture.
A study of Mexican immigrants in America found that those who had immigrated after the age of 17 were less affected by the prevailing super-thin ideal than those who were 16 or younger when they came to the US. In a Washington University study, Black women with high self-esteem and a strong sense of racial identity actually rated themselves more attractive than pictures of supposedly 'beautiful' white fashion models. In another study about 40% of moderately and severely overweight Black women rated their figures to be attractive or very attractive. Other research indicates that this may be because African-American women are more flexible in their concepts of beauty than their White counterparts, who express rigid ideals and greater dissatisfaction with their own body-shape.

In a study of British and Ugandan students' evaluation of body-shapes, the Ugandans rated an 'obese' female figure much more attractive than the British (they were also more tolerant of too-skinny males). Another British study showed that Asian-British women were more content with their body size than white British women, despite the fact that the Asians' ideal body size was as slim as that of the white women, suggesting that the Asian-British women were less concerned about matching the ideal than the white women.

more:
http://www.sirc.org/publik/mirror.html

[Misunderestimator]

172. Thank you for that beautiful poem! Maya Angelou...phenomenal for sure.

[dogday]

101. I have a daughter who is 10 and she is already

concerned about her body image. At that age, little girls should not be worried about such things but they are thanks to our culture and advertising.

[Orangepeel]

104. Another example from "I Love Lucy"

there is an episode where Lucy weighs 130 and can't get into the size 12 dress she needs to fit to do a dance number at Ricky's club (she diets and exercises nonstop for a week and makes it through the number right before she collapses from hunger and exhaustion)

BUT -- She wouldn't have been a 0 by today's standards. A 6 or 8, probably.

AND -- I don't see why this would boost anyone's self esteem.

OH, GREAT! I WOULD HAVE BEEN EVEN FATTER IN 1960!

[Dora]

108. Sewing Patterns DO NOT USE THE SAME MEASUREMENTS as Ready To Wear.

A Misses' size 8-10 in any department store usually equates to a sewing pattern's size 14-16.

[atommom]

110. This is an interesting thread, with a lot of good points being made,

but I have to say that I don't find looking at the old patterns/measurements empowering either. Vanity sizing caught on because consumers liked it. It (the downsizing) is getting a bit ridiculous now, but I don't think the clothing sizes are the true issue here. The real problem is the way our society portrays the ideal female body, and denigrates anyone who doesn't fit that narrow ideal.

[marzipanni]

115. What i've gathered from reading this thread is the size numbers

are arbitrary. One era's 8 is another era's 14. Girls, ignore the numbers, they aren't a reliable indicator of anything.
Girls should be taught that starving yourself lowers your set point and makes it harder to maintain a normal weight once you start eating a healthy amount of food. Being healthy should be most important, the best body for you will result naturally.

[atommom]

117. That's very good advice!

[SoCalDem]

137. HALLELUJAH !!!

another one got it :) :loveya:

I saw my friend's daughter actually cry, because she wanted a dress, but they were out of the "0" size, and she HAD to try it on to make sure she "could have fit into it"..She threw a hissy-fit at her mother buying the size "2" (which fit her perfectly)..but she just "knew" she could have had the smaller one...:eyes:

Is the point of marketers to have women just disappear completely?? Boys/Men are enouraged to "beef up..get big and strong"..and women are encouraged to be "as lean as you can be...diet til to fit that next lower size"...until you are a ZERO".. :puke:...and since there is a weight-point that you just cannot get below, they just start downsizing the numbers and make them THINK they are able to get to that ever-smaller number..

[Odin2005]

124. Why don't women's clothes sizes go by waist size like us men's clothes?

[SoCalDem]

135. Probably because long ago, marketers found out that men

just want clothes that fit......and your clothing is simpler.. ..pants/shirts:)

[atommom]

147. Judging from this thread, I'd argue that women just want clothes

that fit, too! Maybe we vary more than men in size and shape, but surely it doesn't have to be this difficult.

[kineneb]

152. I would love that for pants, along with various leg lengths

I am "large" 5'9', around 200 lbs and a pattern size 16-18. I study ballet, when I am not playing a musical instrument, and am working on getting back to pointe work (much of that weight is muscle).

I also have one heck of a time finding long enough pants. Every once in a while I just give up and get a pair of men's jeans; I can get them to fit at the top and have the right leg length. I look absurd in the 30-32" average women's ready-to-wear jeans. And shirts, ha! All sleeves are 3/4 length on me.

Because I live in the hinterlands, the only sources of real clothing is by mail order. I just wish that the stupid companies would agree on a sizing standard. As an example, JC Penney's garments have completely different sizing than other companies. So I have to look at their charts and hope for the best. I used to do a lot of sewing, but the price of textiles has put me off all but sewing historical costumes.

[SoCalDem]

156. Our boutique carried a line of slacks just like that

They were sized by waist and inseam..BUT they cost about 1/3 more than the others, and because each waist & inseam had so many different combinations, the displaying of all the colors & sizes took up a lot of floor space.. They were fast sellers at first, , but once the run of sizes was "broken", it was hard to get a few replacements at a time from the manufacturer.. They were called FemForm pants and they were manufactured in Texas..

At least we can buy separates these days.. There was a time when it was hard to find outfits where tops and bottoms BOTH fit..

[Quantess]

126. size inflation

This is one of my favorite topics, with my female friends.
Today's size 7 is comparable to a size 12 in the 1980s, or a size 14 in the 1970s, or a size 16+ in earlier decades. See for yourself. Go try on some vintage clothing.

The purpose is for stores to flatter women, which will hopefully increase sales.
Some stores/chains/labels are more egregious about it than others.

A size 7 today can still rightfully feel slim, but if you sent miss size 7 back in time, she might feel frustrated at having to buy dresses in double digit sizes.

[magellan]

127. Watch old movies, you'll see the weight/height proportion trend in motion

Has anyone else noticed it? Women from the 40s, they're tall and slender, but in the 50s they tend to be more curvaceous (like Marilyn Monroe). Of course in the 20s beauty was portrayed as small and flat-chested and there was a revival of that pixie look in the 60s. How many women at each of these timeframes actually fit the "norms"? I wonder. Probably about as many as today!

It's too bad we women are bombarded with this stuff from the time we're old enough to watch tv or flip through a magazine. In almost every other species it's the male who has to have the brightest plumage and the buffest bod, to attract the female. WE get stuck watching average Joe take his pick of the harem. Even in commercials! It's unfair and unhealthy.

[Hardrada]

132. Go back further and you have Lillian Russell

and women who looked like Mae West. Mae West!! Way too big for today's standards and the leading men were "coming up to see her sometime."

[magellan]

154. So true!

Lillian Russell and Mae West were voluptuous women by any standards, and much-loved (and lusted after) starlets of their times! And their times were when men saw full-figured women as symbolic of prosperity and health.

How times do change. And they'll change again...which is why it's so sad that we women always feel compelled to fit into the current "norm".

[Thirtieschild]

129. YES. I've been saying this since the 1980s

when I went shopping without my glasses, got home and discovered I'd bought a size 8. A size 8 when I weighed 150, but a size 9 in 1957 when I weighed a much-too-skinny 115 and my measurements were 32-23-34. I don't know when they decided to slim us down but I can guess why - so we'd congratulate ourselves about how thin we are. Of course the sizes work the other way for those of us who have matured into a size 18 - at this size and weight in 1957, I guess I'd have worn a 32. Or a 46?

[Nikia]

139. I'm struggling to accept my body

I am recovering from anorexia. I have agreed and abided by the decision to not weigh myself (I go to a dietician and she weighs me when I step on the scale backwards). Still, I know approximately how much I weigh and I know this is an impediment for me in gaining weight. Why do I think that I would be less "special" if I weighed 110 or that I would be a "fat cow" if I weighed 130 (which is still a healthy weight for my height and build) like I used to?
I wonder if it is even healthy to read this thread. A few years ago, when I weighed 130 I wore size 10 jeans. By thread like this, it seemed that everyone else who wore sized 10 jeans was 150+ and that there must be something wrong with my body that I was not size 6 like other people at my weight. I have always seemed to wear bigger sizes than other people at my weight.
Even being underweight, I cannot wear small jackets or most shirts because evidently I have big shoulders, big breasts for a thin girl, and a big rib cage. I cannot wear "0" jeans in some cuts because my hip bones stick out too much. It gives me this weird dichotomy of feeling both too thin and too fat when I look in the mirror because I see the bones but the bones are wide. Despit this, my limbs look like toothpicks so I don't really look large framed either.
My therapist says that I should go clothes shopping and pay attention to what fits well, not what size it is. That I should try a variety of styles since some styles are more appropriate for certain body types than others. For example, form fitting dresses that are approximately the same width top to bottom would not fit my body type no matter what size they came in. I need to figure out what works with me rather than insist on buying a type and brand of jeans where the size "0" is too tight but the size "2" is too big in another area.
As for the fashion industry, perhaps going to a size measurement system like men's would be helpful and offer a variety of sizing since we do not all have the same measurement ratio.

[SoCalDem]

140. I am glad that you are recovering..

:hug:

the whole point of my posting this was that the uncertainty of sizes these days is messing with people's heads..big time.. There is a weight/size that humans are intended to weight.. Everybody's "number" is different, but manufacturers/advertisers/media seems intent on making women feel as if they are never good enough, small enough, thin enough.. you name it..

When sizing was standard, you could have some idea what would fit you, if you knew your measurements.. I referenced the Ship n Shore chart. It was a very cut and dried chart, and in some odd way, made sense.. Of course no one's measurements were exactly that...but if your bust/chest measurement was a 32, then a size 12 would be a good place to start.. If your shoulders were small like mine, there was a good chance that the seams would drop down and my arms are short, so I would have to roll the cuffs...but a 10 (30" bust) would not have buttoned..

When I worked for my aunt in her boutique, I would bring something to the fitting room, and tell them to "try this on"..without telling them what size it was..Different fabrics fit differently and you always have to fit the parts that stick out the most..no matter what size or weight you are :)

Pre-victorian Hawaiian women had the best idea... and current Tahitian women.. sarongs for everyone.. one size truly fits all :)

[Hippo_Tron]

157. From your description you sound quite beautiful

And yea I wonder if it wouldn't be better off if women's pants just had a size measurement like men's. I know that you never see a guy bragging about how he can fit into a 32 inch waist pair of jeans and his buddy gets self conscious and tries to fit into a 32 inch waist when he is really a 34.

[DarkTirade]

161. Yeah... that never happens...

*whistles innocently*

[Hippo_Tron]

163. There have been times when I wish that I could fit into a smaller waist

But I never actually try it because if I did after 2 seconds I would be like "damn this is really uncomfortable". You just don't see men trying to fit into clothing that is too small for them. Then again, men aren't expected to wear tight fitting clothes to begin with so there is some difference.

[DarkTirade]

177. Tight-fitting sometimes...

just not form-fitting the way some women's clothing is. I never understood how women could wear form-fitting jeans... I didn't know how it was physically possible until I realized that somehow they're stretchy. Stretchy and denim shouldn't exist together. That's just wierd.
Me, I'll just be happy if I can get rid of some of this extra insulation. It isn't so much my waistline that bothers me... it's the extra layer of insulation that I have during the Florida summer. :)

[formernaderite]

143. The issue I have is health...and kids today are fatter

we should NOT be propping up their self esteem, boy or girl and tell them their body size is okay. I'm continually amazed by how fat teen girls and boys have gotten. This is a health epidemic. Kids are too fat. Adults are too fat. There is nothing okay about it. Get out and excercise...stop watching television. Walk. Go on a fast, and experience your body and what real hunger pangs may feel like. Make hunger your friend, it's a truly good feeling. Listen to your body, meditate. Stop eating everything in sight....that will do wonders for your self esteem.

Sorry for the rant, I'm an old hippy who knows the benefits of eating whole food.

[readmoreoften]

150. oh yeah, telling big girls that they're fat is a great idea...

As someone who has fasted for weeks at a time, works out 2 hours a day, and can't lose weight, I resent skinny idiots (or men, who have a much easier time losing weight than women) telling people that they can lose weight by skipping the ice cream sundaes.

SKINNY PEOPLE ARE SKINNY BECAUSE OF THEIR METABOLISM. PERIOD.

And how the hell are kids going to "get out and exercise" when they live in cities, and their parents are faulted for having them out of eyesight.

And, by the way, fasting is not a way to lose weight. If done wrong, it can bring on a cycle of massive weight gain.

Keep your comments to yourself and be glad you're not born with weight issues.

[formernaderite]

164. bullshit...I've gained weight and so has my wife...

from not eating healthily. Not moving around. I never said you should call kids names, I just don't believe in this new fat acceptance crap. Funny, I NEVER see obese OLD people. Ever noticed that? Obese people don't die when they're old, they die when they're young. This is a terrible situation we're in. I'm sure there are a small percentage of people who are heavier because they do have a screwed up metabolism....but it's a very small number. I doubt if they're obese, they're just a bit heavier. Growing up there was one fat kid in school. And yes, he ate like a horse.

What was different? We didn't snack. Three meals and an apple, or maybe ONE cookie, and a pretzel stick at school.

Fasting is not a way to lose weight, it's a way to let your digestive system rest from all the over eating we do. I actually under eat as a way of life. I eat mostly vegetarian, but have no issues with eating meat on occasion. I don't snack....ever. I do stop for a beer, here and there. My wife gained weight after kids, and marriage....same thing. She eats the way I do now.
We eat to live, not live to eat.

[Nikia]

166. All my heavy old relatives unintentionally lost significant weight

When they were in their 70's. I read that unintentional weight loss happens to some old people and people who were heavy to begin with are better off than light people if this happens.
These realtvies weren't 400 pound obese but my great grandmother went from almost 200 pounds to 140 and ended up living to be 85. If she had started out at 140 and lost 60 pounds, she would have probably died sooner. Maybe she wouldn't have lost as significant of weight though if she had been lighter.

[Nikia]

167. But why do normal and underweight women want to lose weight?

Why do most men who are not morbidly obese not care about losing weight when men still have a lower life expectancy?
When normal and underweight females restrict or go through restrict and binge cycles or purge, they are hurting their health. Dieting or fasting can trigger underlying biological tendencies for eating disorders as well.
It would be better to focus on eating healthy and exercising rather than numbers (weight or size). We have a tendency with numbers to believe that lower is better for weight and size (or higher for things like money, test scores, ect.) That isn't the case in that a low weight can impair function or even destroy organs and that the lowest sizes are meant for people with small skeletal structures and that larger framed women may never achieve them no matter how much weight they lose.

[kineneb]

168. hear, hear

yes, many people are heavy because of the junk "food" they eat. The problem comes when they (mostly women) obsess on size, small or large. As a larger person, I know I need to shead a few pounds, but I will never be one of the tiny people- my bone structure is large. No aiming for a size 8 here, a size 14 would be just right. I would still have no worryies about osteoprosis from being too thin, like my departed grandmother.

[formernaderite]

169. I don't think any of us are quibbling about small or large frames

Don't you think BMI is correlated to increased health risks? I have never advocated being underweight, just as humans age we should eat to live, not live to eat. That means, don't over eat. Don't eat packaged foods. Don't eat fast food. Eat nutritious fuel. I happen to undereat, relative to most people. I am not bone thin. I am a very healthy guy in his late fifties. My wife is equally healthy, with a little more natural padding....neither of us has ever looked like a supermodel, and we've both had weight issues at various times when we were in our 20's.

I'm advocated preaching health and not convincing overweight people that they're okay. It's just not true.

[seabeyond]

171. but we arent talking the woes of obese. deserves its own thread

there are a zillion reasons.

we are talking about those that are trying to match the retarded image our society demands of our girls. not even women today. or not even our teen girls. but our little girls.

to shift argument to a totally different direction, the obsesity of our youth. the non activity. the poor eating, is to dismiss the very conversation that is fuckin with our 8 and 10 year old girls.

[formernaderite]

178. Turn the tv off and you have no problem

we had no tv policy till the kids were in middle school. I had girls and boys with NO body image problems. Turning the tv off also ensure NO couch potatoes. In the end, the parents are responsible for what they're kids ingest, psychologically and physically.

[seabeyond]

179. seeing how my kids dont watch tv, and kids dont have weight issue

wearing slim jeans, no one in my family have weight issue, you are preaching to the choir. though they do sit on computer a lot. they also play a lot. that is not what my post was about. we are talking about the kids that dont have weight problems, that just dont meet the image of computer airbrushed pictures of models, and society creating an environment that they dont feel good about. and girls at the youngest of age beating themselves up because they dont have adult figures when they dont want. but if you want to continue to ignore what the discussion is on this thread, to argue something totally different, fine. do it with someone that actually needs to hear your lecture.

personally i am just not into such easy judgement and condemnation of people i dont know. but i cant argue anything you have posted.

genetically i will say hubby family stays away from extra pounds regardless of diet and in my family most lines dont have a weight issue, but one. so it is really pretty easy for us and natural for us to be able to eat, moderate exercise and no worry. genetics takes us a long way.

just not the discussion we are having

[Blue_Tires]

151. the Dove soap campaign has also been well recieved

http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/

[madeline_con]

153. Au contraire.....

DuPont scientist Joseph C. Shivers invented DuPont's spandex fiber in 1959 after a decade of research. Originally designated Fiber K, DuPont subsequently chose the more mellifluous trade name Lycra to distinguish its brand of spandex fiber.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff/7707scitek4.html

BTW, I wore the same type stuff to junior high that is being worn now. There are way more fat girls now who have no business letting all that blubber hang out.

[DetroitProle]

158. fuck society

I'm a young dude and a girl with curves is a beautiful thing. Skinny anorexic models? Not my thing.
That's not how people are supposed to look.