RE: Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11

[sabra]

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006

<snip>

- Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks

This is an incredible poll, however this one item sticks out a like a sore thumb. When I saw this figure I was quickly reminded of the documentary, "Why We Fight", that I recently had the opportunity to see.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/000773.html

The new documentary Why We Fight features a retired New York City policeman and Vietnam veteran named Wilton Sekzer. It examines his turbulent emotions after his son Jason was killed at the World Trade Center on 9/11.

At first Sekzer just wants revenge, and he understands the Bush administration to be saying Iraq was somehow responsible. So not only does he support the Iraq war, he asks the Pentagon to write his son's name on a bomb. They do, and drop it east of Baghdad.



Obviously Sekzer wasn't alone in feeling this way about 9/11 and Iraq. Until recently, polls showed a majority of Americans believed Saddam Hussein was "personally involved" in the attacks.

...

As Why We Fight shows, Wilton Sekzer was stunned when—many months after the invasion—George Bush explicitly said there was no evidence Iraq was involved in 9/11. He felt duped and betrayed. And now not only is his son gone, so is any faith he had in the U.S. government.

I imagine there are many Wilton Sekzer's out there, who believed the lies that BushCo fed them. Unfortunately it will take a long time for them to see the truth. One person at a time...

[HootieMcBoob]

1. God, We're A Very Stupid Country!

:banghead:

[quiet.american]

5. Well, no argument with that exactly, but I think the poll is 90% of troops

If I'm reading it right -- which would be more understandable.

Being former military myself, (and I'm sure even if one isn't former military, it's understandable) that the troops know only what their superiors are telling them. Most are young kids who have no political awareness whatsoever. And until only recently, that #$%*&#@! Rush Limbaugh is the only form of "politics" they've been exposed to on Armed Forces Radio.

No wonder they don't have a clue.

[Arkansas Granny]

25. I think you're right that 90% of troops think there is a connection, but

not the general population. And I think your reasons for this misperception by our troops are probably correct.

[anarch]

26. I have to say, I think allowing Rush on Armed Forces Radio

pretty much qualifies as a crime against humanity. Cripes.

[FreakinDJ]

35. More interesting would be

More interesting would be the correlation between indoctrinated with obvious propaganda and “Delayed Stress Syndrome”

When these guys finally come home and have to deal with the realities of war and the added factor the majority of America doesn’t believe the crap that was pumped into their heads by the likes of Drug Addled Gas Bad Rush LimpDick, this could and would add to the Delayed Stress Syndrome

You can fault the Armed Forces for allowing the conditions of LimpDick being on the radio, but I'm more inclined to blame Rush LimpDick for propogating the propaganda in the first place.

[anarch]

40. yeah, I definitely blame Rush most for the pernicious tripe he spouts

But aside from banning him and his hate-speech from the air-waves, I couldn't think of anything worse to wish on him than being the pathetic asshole he already is. What a jackass.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I said the same thing, but the reality is that right-wingers will never

admit they made a mistake. They can't believe that their premise was wrong, and that believing in George Bush, a person they see as a good man, was all they needed to do to ensure that everything would be handled properly.

Until FoxNews comes out and says, "We were misled, and thus, we misled you," the right-wing voter will never believe that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

[Atman]

9. Ah, yes...

[Warpy]

14. Bushco blamed Iraq immediately on 9/11

and the whore press SCREAMED it for the first two days. When it was found that 11 of the hijackers were Saudi (probably, we'll never know), the whore press whispered the news.

It's no wonder busy people who still think the whore press is a free press believe this garbage. They don't hear anything to counter it.

[melody]

19. No more so than any other country

That's just gauging the temperature of the right wing. I'm actually surprised it's *that* healthy -- 10% are actual free thinkers??

[meganmonkey]

2. Just a reminder to folks, before they start talking about

how uneducated or 'stupid' our soldiers are:

THEY ARE BEING LIED TO! DAY, DAY OUT, BY THEIR LEADERS.

And despite the lies, despite thinking their mission may even be meaningful, THEY WANT TO GET OUT!

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. This is the reason why it's wrong for Specter to bring a legislative

pardon to Bush over the wiretapping. It sends a wrong signal to the Repub voters. It says that we can make it right, even when we're wrong.

[rodeodance]

20. yeah--Specter is 'saving=face" for the WH!!!

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. Oh Perfect!

:banghead:

[Briar]

4. I would love to know why a supposedly Christian country

clearly believes that revenge is a justifiable motive for killing tens of thousands of innocents. Or for anything.

[MindPilot]

12. They are just following god's example....

n/t

[FloridaPat]

6. I would imagine that if you're getting shot at 24 hours a day in a country

that hates you, and you're there because your commander in chief lied, you have to believe something. And then there is all the torture, murder, thievery, etc. What a shame. What a sick joke on the troops, the Iraqis, and us.

[BuyingThyme]

11. Yes, to justify the murder they're encouraged to make

sense of it.

[FreakinDJ]

8. Where did they find that group o

Words can not describe the ignorance

edited

Sorry

did not read the article enough

[meganmonkey]

13. Edited

We're all on the same page now.

[FreakinDJ]

16. Your right I edited my post

I remember listening to Armed Forces Radio. It was the only broadcast in English.

To think they allow a drug addicted gas bag to spew filth to our troops and not Ed Shultz is disgusting

[meganmonkey]

18. No worries

I just can't imagine what it is like for them, you know?

:(

[FreakinDJ]

23. I have a pretty good idea of what it is like

My next door neighbor's child just returned from his second tour as a medic. He re-enlisted to go back and help his buddies.

Randi has got it right. The guys are fighting for their buddies. I commend them highly for that. They truly believe in America and for what the constitution means. It is a sad day in Hell to realize all of their sacrafice is perversed by the likes of Rush LimpDick drug adled gas bag

Very Sad indeed

[KurtNYC]

15. 85% wasn't high enough? They had to round up to 90

From the body of the Zogby page:

While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”

I have to think part of these numbers is a kind of psychological mechanism -- they don't want to think they are there because */Powell/Cheney/Rice/et al hyped non-existant WMD which turned out not to be there. The troops are confronted with their daily struggle; they see friends injured and killed. They may have killed people themselves. With that much suffering and that much personal investment in what is going on, it would be very hard for them to live with the idea that the Iraq-occupation is 1) the result of a chorus lies and 2)a diversion from the search for bin Laden. The stronger the reasons to stay in denial, the more profound the denial becomes.

[blogslut]

17. makes sense to me

Granted, there are soldiers in Iraq that enlisted before the war. However, I would imagine the majority that enlisted post 911 and pre-Iraq believed in they were defending America. The ones that enlisted for the Iraq war believed their president when he said Saddam was in league with Al Queda and hiding WMDs. The fault lies with Dubya. He lied. He keeps lying and changing the story.

[sabra]

22. bingo! my thoughts exactly...

[High Plains]

50. I'm tired of giving a free pass to those bulletheads who signed up

to go kill some Arabs.

While some troops may have been snookered and some are just poor National Guard and Reserve schmucks, there is a healthy contingent of US soldiers who wanted to go kick some Arab ass. Having fun now, guys?

[TexasLawyer]

21. This is another statistic that makes me really sad...

"The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq."

It's bad enough that a huge proportion of the troops believe that we are in Iraq as pay-back for 9/11. But believing that trying to bring an end to the war is unpatriotic? Or that that position exhibits a lack of understanding?

Criminy! So many of us have been working tirelessly trying to help these men and women stay alive and to hang onto their limbs, eyeballs, and sanity by calling Bushco on this illegal and immoral war. And to be called "unpatriotic" or "ignorant" by a majority of soldiers for our efforts?

WTF???!!!

[rman]

24. I can understand the troops have a hard time convincing themselves

that they are in Iraq to catch Osama.
So i'll forgive them their ignorance.

[AndyA]

27. Saddam's role in 9/11? Did I miss something?

From time to time things escape me, but I certainly feel left out of the loop on this one...

Meanwhile, Saddam is on trial (sort of) and Osama is still free.

Heckuva job, guys.

[TexasLawyer]

28. JUST 30% ?

The Zogby report states: "Just 30% of troops said they think the Department of Defense has failed to provide adequate troop protections, such as body armor, munitions, and armor plating for vehicles like HumVees."

I'm sorry, but the word "just" does not belong in this sentence. 30% answering this way to a question on adequate protection is a huge proportion of the troops. Optimally, this response should have been close to zero.

It is also relevant that the survey was put to "944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq." This group of respondents probably included a good dose of soldiers who served in non-combat roles, e.g, mechanics, office workers, prison guards, etc... who have worked their entire deployment "inside the wire."

I'd be interested to see whether this number went over 30% among the soldiers who actually have to rely on the safety equipment they're being asked about.

[Renegade Six]

36. bs

Do you believe there is such a thing as non-combat rolls anymore? I dont think there is.

[TexasLawyer]

41. yes there are non-combat roles

and LOTS of them.

I am active with a web-site called anysoldier.com, where soldiers post information about themselves and talk about what they do. I send care packages and correspond with a lot of people who stay "inside the wire" throughout their deployment. There are electricians, engineers, auto mechanics, signalmen, helicopter mechanics, secretaries, human resources people, chaplains, DFAC (dining facility) supervisors, prison guards, psychologists, and on and on.

I don't know what proportion they are to infantry and other direct combat roles, but these people are over in Iraq in great numbers.

[Renegade Six]

49. there are very few

in Iraq who stay inside the wire, regardless of MOS. This is just the way of life in the new army.

[TexasLawyer]

51. you sound like you know what you're talking about,

so I'll definitely defer to you on this one. I saw the "FT. Hood" on your profile, which is the possible tip-off. LOL

I know that lots and lots of non-fighting military roles are being turned over to KBR, etc... to free up the military personnel for fighting.

[Renegade Six]

59. I was a mechanic

and I didn't spend too much time with a wrench in my hand. Maybe its just cause I was part of a MP unit, but once a few go down, they have to be replaced from somewhere. Besides even if you don't have circumstances similar to mine, cook, mechanics, and others have to get supplies from somewhere. They go out to get what they need without much protection or real fire power. Dint even get the Transportion guys talking, in my opinion that is most dangerous job in Iraq today.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Um! 58% Of MARINES(!) Think We Need To Come Home Now

So much for all those "good things" we're doing it Iraq, if even Marines think we should leave. When the gov't can't manage to keep Marines convinced the mission is valid, they have mangled this thing beyond repair.
The Professor

[TahitiNut]

39. Same thought occurred to me. 58% is remarkably high for Marines.

Assuming 13% have "no opinion" - that's a two-to-one ratio of 'get out' to 'keep on fighting.' For a genre of military that's addicted to myth more than most, that's a remarkably high degree of dissent.

[Gregorian]

30. It's the media.

And the fact that many people are stubborn. The first thing they believe becomes their truth. Americans have been trained to be good consumers. In other words, dependant.

[sakabatou]

31. The public needs to be better informed

The thing is, however, is that the media is definately biased to lies and spin.

[Beelzebud]

32. Anyone that still thinks Iraq was involved in 9/11 is a fucking IDIOT.

I'm done trying to reach out to these dumb fucks...

[Neil Lisst]

33. 90% think Iraq was involved in 9/11. That's horrifying.

There is the problem with an all volunteer military. What it knows of politics is what it has been told by its superiors.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Well, An Awfully Lot Of Them Are Just Kids

Lots of 18 to 20 year olds there, who went from one controlled system to another. I think many of them will have very different opinions as to how much they need to pay attention after this adventure is behind them.
The Professor

[TahitiNut]

45. Yep. Too soon old; too late smart.

:evilgrin: Having had a double dose of military, I sure know the drill.

[ProfessorGAC]

48. I'm Quite Certain You Do!

A lot better than would i.
The Professor

[Terran1212]

60. Uneducated, scared kids who want to come home!

[TahitiNut]

37. The power of military indoctrination is not to be underestimated.

In converting a human being into a weapon, indoctrination is very necessary.

First, the individual must be heavily habituated in following orders immediately, without question or cogitation - and the manual of arms and close order drill are the methods employed. Both are a constant stream of orders to which the trainee immediately responds. Right face. Left face. Order arms. Present arms. Right shoulder arms. Forward march. Column left march. Company halt. Over and over and over and over and over again. Order = comply.

Second, the 'enemy' is dehumanized. "Slope" "chink" "raghead" "Jap" "Kraut" ... all terms of disdain, denigration, and dehumanization. The 'enemy' is cartoonishly presented as consistently evil, unthinking, mechanical, and dangerous - NEVER as a thinking, rational being.

Third, the provocation is always mythologized. The defense of baseball, motherhood, and apple pie. There is NEVER much truth behind the provocation. No matter what, the reason the troops are there is ALWAYS because their command had no choice - it's the enemy's fault! In this case, merely the mention of Saddam and Al Qaeda in the same sentence is sufficient. The basic, immutable rule in all warfare is that the troops ALWAYS believe it's the enemy's fault.

[WePurrsevere]

42. As an X-military wife & GF I agree. It's a type of brainwashing. Sadly ...

for many they never fully recover from it and bring it home.

[Robeson]

53. Great post! You've summed it up nicely...

...:thumbsup:

[berni_mccoy]

38. CMON! These Are Soldiers taking the Survey (90% of SOLDIERS IN IRAQ)

They ARE TOLD BY THEIR SUPERIORS why they are they and they HAVE TO TRUST IN THE INFORMATION THEIR SUPERIORS GIVE THEM.

The average American citizen, on the other hand, DOES NOT HAVE TO TRUST the B.S. our government is feeding us.

[Johonny]

43. But it's true it should be 100 % not 90 %

- Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks


Just because Saddam had no role in 9/11. Almost certainly America was "sold" on this war as a retaliation for 9/11. It also seems painfully clear the President and vice president made that case at least in the public arena where as in private god know why they fought this stupid war. But I'm not alarmed by the 90 % number.

[fishnfla]

44. There is some out right contradictions in this poll

I realize you can make cats cradles with these numbers, but some stuff dont add up

1. its not 90% on the 9/11 figure, its 85%, why inflate it?

2. 72% say out of Iraq within a year, but then 53% say double troop strength to combat insurgency. ??????

3. 72% say out, but 37% say Americans at home are unpatriotic for saying the same thing (another 15% say Americans at home dont understand the need for troops in Iraq)

4. On one point, homegrown vs foreign insurgency, i think Zogby states there is some confusion among the troops

5. 80% do not hold a negative view of Iraqis b/c of the attacks. Dont show them the Iraqi poll which states 70% or more of the citizens support attacks on US Troops

[daleo]

46. Here are a few other insights from the survey

"Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more."
- almost one third of the respondents were on their third tour of duty. Over three quarters had done at least one previous tour.

"The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value."
- nearly half (45%) don't consider harsh and threatening methods against prisoners to be inappropriate.

[ClayZ]

47. BFEE Psy-Oped our troops! That should be a yellow ribbon!

:cry:

[Disturbed]

52. It must be real hard to counter the brainwashing.

I was in the US Army, Vietnam Era Vet. I had orders to go there but they were changed and I never went, long story. I do know about the brainwashing. It was hard to overcome. I place the fault directly upon the CIC and all of those below for betraying the troops.

[tlsmith1963]

54. 90% of Stupid People

It's obvious that they took a poll of stupid people, because it has been said over & over again that Saddam had *nothing* to do with 9/11. bin Laden & Hussein hate each other. They would never team up for anything.

Tammy

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Most troops haven't the foggiest notion of what they're fighting for.

I was a training NCO in 1964-5. Most of the troops, including the officers, didn't know where Vietnam was and even less what the war was about. And, most didn't care.

Just before I got out, they asked those same troops who were due for discharge, to voluntarily extend their enlistments and "fight for their country". There were literally lines of them ignorant enough to do so. Many of them now decorate "the Wall" after killing and dying for nothing.

The criminals who sent them there and "sacrificed" them, still walk free, unmolested, and the new crew of criminals that are doing the same thing in Iraq are running the country.

"War doesn't make boys men, it makes men dead."
~Ken Gillespie

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Even the 9/11 Commission said there was no connection

I wish people would learn to read for themselves instead of blindly following leaders like Bush who happily manipulate people.

[Disturbed]

58. I just found this.

Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM...

"You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror."

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11."

[many a good man]

57. We need the troops to fight for freedom here back home!

Their first allegiance is to the Constitution. It has been roundly abused in their absence. Compare bush*s definition of "freedom" to the rights enshrined in our Constitution. Their commander in chief embodies everything our Founding Fathers warned us about.

Everyone has to ask himself what it really means to be patriotic.