Students suspended for bring dangerous objects to school - snow balls

[The Straight Story]

Students Suspended For Snowball Fight

POSTED: 9:55 pm EST February 25, 2006

RIVERSIDE, Calif. -- Two Ramona High School students were suspended for bringing dangerous objects to school - snowballs.

Seniors Michael Sepulveda and Daniel Zavala, the snowball co-conspirators, made a pre-dawn run to the San Bernardino Mountains to fill their pickup trucks with snow and bring it to school for what they hoped would turn into an annual "bring Big Bear to Riverside" ritual.

They were suspended after a school parking lot snowball fight before the start of classes Thursday.

Principal Mike Neece said one of his most important responsibilities is maintaining a safe, orderly learning environment.

"Anything that disturbs that or disrupts that is inappropriate on a school campus," Neece said. "Anything that could cause injury, or could cause a student to get upset and instigate a fight, or damage students' personal property is just inappropriate behavior."

http://www.local6.com/news/7452663/detail.html

[DemInDistress]

1. would that apply to a food fight? hm, remember john belushi? nt

[donco6]

105. Absolutely it would.

I'd be suspending the instigators first thing. We don't have time or manpower to clean up that kind of juvenile mess.

Have the food fights in your own house where YOU can clean it up.

[petronius]

163. At my school, that would've applied to the food

throwing it probably made it safer...

[DanCa]

2. It must really suck to be a kid these days.

Hell lets purify the planet so much that you can't live in it.

[NanceGreggs]

10. Man, you ain't kiddin' (pun intended) ...

The life of the average 'kid' these days:

Don't be picked up and carried by your parents; be lugged around in a front-pack cocoon, fully armoured with thirty pounds of bullet-proof cotton wading, and four dozen 'safety straps' that ensure zero mobility - how COZY!

Graduate to a Fisher-Price 'Toddler's First Steps' walking system apparatus, instead of pulling yourself up on the coffee-table and letting yourself wing-it. And when taken to the mall, get locked and loaded into a stroller that has more weight and wheel-span than the average all-terrain army tank.

On to your first tricycle, complete with head-gear, mouth-guard, over-the-shoulder seat-belt - and don't forget the helmet, shin guards, elbow guards and air-bag system that fully deploys if you hit something at the heady speed of .00000001-miles-per-hour.

Then it's on to your first bike, which comes with a complete haz-mat suit, emergency surgery kit (in case of a scraped knee), and a satellite hook-up whereby you can be tracked anytime, anywhere in the world, even though you're not even allowed off the block.

I'm glad I grew up in a time when your parents said, "GO out and play. And if you get hurt, it's your own fault - you were probably doing something you shouldn't be doing, so don't come cryin' to me."

Ah, those were the days ...

[malaise]

60. I agree with you

of course they can go overseas and kill at will for Bushco, but a little snow ball fight is oh so dangerous.

I want to jump off this planet.

Add.

[Mizmoon]

114. My kid got a $50 tresspassing ticket for walking thru his own schoolyard

after dark. It's an easy cut through from the movie theater to the neighborhood. They've been ticketing kids left and right. Now they have to walk blocks around it even though the weather is freezing.

Christ, I remember getting stoned in the dugout on the weekends. Now they can't walk through the property.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. The cops in your neighborhood must not have much to do

I live across from a park where the cops run the kids off for playing basketball after 9:00 at night. They don't ticket them though.

[Swamp Rat]

3. Neece himself might get nailed by a snow ball if he's not careful

:D

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. So are you saying we should let kids throw things at each other

at school? That it is just all in good fun?

[SammyBlue]

6. I had snowball fights in school at the fucking time!

What the hell are you afraid of? Kids being kids and having some fun?

Way to generalize. Snowballs hurt no one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. The ones with rocks in them do

We had a kid at my school put rocks in snowballs. A kid who got hit had to get stitches. So no, snowballs are not always safe.

These kids could have had this fun with snowballs at home in their own yard. But they brought them on to school property where they surely know that kids are not allowed to throw things at each other. So yes, I agree they deserved to be punished.

Schools are sued for every little piddly thing you can imagine these days. Had this principal not punished these kids, his phone would have rung off the hook with parents calling to complain that their babies were in danger. If anyone had gotten hurt, the school district would have been at risk for a lwasuit. He did the smart thing by disciplining them.

Snowball fights are fine - anywhere but at school.

[BlackVelvet04]

86. Oh good dear God.....

poor kids.

[Mutley]

179. Amen to that.

I got one of those right in the eye when I was a kid -- at school! It was the first and only black eye I've ever had.

[donco6]

107. Are you ever wrong on that one.

I can't TELL you how many crying, sobbing kids I've had to deal with who were hit by snowballs. It adds a visit to the nurse para, phone call home, sometimes hysterical parent (depending on the parent and the kid and the relationship and who threw the snowball - it's all related). I just don't need all this drama/trauma added to what I'm supposed to be doing - educating kids!

We did have one kid who got a ruptured eardrum from a snowball impact. Bleeding from the ear - had to call 911, ambulance, distraught parent, etc.

It's not nearly as innocuous as you make it sound.

[Lindacooks]

164. Wrong.

I was hit in the shoulder by a snowball full of ice in 5th grade. And I've had significant pain in that shoulder blade ever since. The 'harmless' snowball damaged the muscle. When I get tired or overwork, the pain is really bad.

[Gormy Cuss]

72. Out of curiosity, are kids allowed to play tag at school these days?

All that running around and chasing each other was at least as hazardous as dodgeball but I wonder if it's viewed that way.

As for snowballs, we would have been severely reprimanded if we threw a snowball on school grounds, even if we were aiming at the fence. That was just not allowed. We did play dodgeball but that was a game and it was supervised by teachers during recess or exercise periods.

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. I don't let my kids play tag

[ScreamingMeemie]

171. I don't think we should. When I was in highschool (84-88) it wasn't

allowed. I can see it turning into a "smear the queer", bully type thing. I think the principal was right. Snowball fights in your own backyard are one thing...this is another.

[SammyBlue]

172. So, "snowball fights" in the backyard and "bullying games" there are

a-okay, but not at school, because of lawsuits? Parents can be sued just as fast as schools.

I really will make a lousy principal when I finish my master's degree. I'm going through my schoo law books and not seeing anything like that.

What the problem has become is that we are so afraid to let out kids be kids!

To quote George Carlin: "Whatever happened to the kid who eats too many marbles doesn't grow up to have kids of his own. . .no wonder kids smoke, it helps. Not as much as weed, but you can't have everything. The problem isn't the kids. It's these anal retentive yuppie boomer parents who enroll you in college before you know which side of the plan pen smells the worst. Then they fill you up with ritalin and drag you to meaningless structure. Little League, Cub Scouts, Piano lessons, bagpipes, watercolor, witchcraft, bagpipes and dildo practice.

Seriously, if you want to help your kids, LEAVE THEM THE FUCK ALONE!!!"

We have the two extremes today. Parents being uninvolved and parents being over-involved! Where are parents like mine? The happy medium!!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

173. No...most times, the bullies aren't inivited over to play. Sorry, I think

I am, as a parent, the happy medium. It wasn't allowed when I was in high school. My kids aren't on ritalin, I am involved, but my son also gets his fair share of scrapes, and bruises. I've got no problem with not allowing snowball fights on school grounds. Do you really invite the bullyers over to your house? Wow. I don't. The snowball fights in my own backyard would involve my son and his friends...not kids who would end up rubbing his face in the snow purely because they don't like him. Sorry, your argument doesn't fly. That's not being overprotective...that's just raising kids.

[DanCa]

5. Two words Dodge Ball

And they are worried about kids throwing snow at each other?

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. I have never taught anywhere where dodge ball is played

No way.

[DanCa]

13. Really?

It must be a midwestern thing because every school I went to taught that little sucker. Of course I went to Catholic H.S. I am not knocking Catholic H.S. mind you - I am just letting everyone know my education background.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Really

I also don't remember playing it in school as a kid. We played it at home but never at school.

We really do tend to avoid activities where kids throw things at each other. :)

[DanCa]

16. Ah see i lived in a house where we loved throwing things at each other.

My older brothers introduced me to a wonderful little game called sling the bull head. Watch ya supposed to do is catch a bull head and fling it at the person until the stickers get wedged into a person arms. Than we had bottle rocket fights when we were seventeen. We'd follow each other in our cars and than launch bottle rocket fireworks at each other. Than my mom would "throw" holy water at us when it started to thunderstorm and tell us stories of people who have been hit by lightning. See don'tcha see me as heroicly sane now getting that picture of my child hood upbringing. :D.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. That was at home

School is a completely different story.

[FearofFutility]

138. Your lucky you never had to play dodge ball!

I hated gym class because we had to play it often, and it was always boys against girls. The boys would throw the ball at the girls as hard as they could. The goal was to inflict as much pain as possible. The gym teachers appeared to enjoy watching the girls scurry and cry.

[BiggJawn]

1963 to 1968

Dodge Ball was a playground staple when I was growing up, in a more sane era.

These misguided efforts to protect the school board from lawsuits (which seems to be your thesis) under the guise of raising a generation of kumbaya-singing peaceniks is doing horrible emotional damage to the kids, IMO.

How long before they start expelling kids whose parents pay to teach them martial arts for "possessing inappropriate knowledge"? I read the other day about a 16-y-o who was arrested for possession of a handgun based solely on a photo he posted on myspace. His Principal was afraid he'd bring the gun to school, so they had him "pre-emptively arrested".

I'm SO glad I'm not a kid anymore, and doubly glad my kid's grown.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. And how long ago was that?

[BiggJawn]

161. You're in Academia?

And you can't take 1963 from 2006?

Oh, boy, we're in worse trouble than I realized....

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. Oh how cute

I'll bet your teachers just loved you. :eyes:

Since you didn't get it, my point was that times have changed.

[BiggJawn]

169. The GOOD teachers loved me.

The ones who were in it for the paycheck hated me.

Indeed, times *HAVE* changed. Whether or not it's been for the better is the point of contention here. I'm starting to suspect it's not for the better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

184. Yes many things have changed

And NCLB is destroying many of the good things left.

FYI, none of us are in it for the paycheck. LOL Most of us could make better money working in a convenience store.

[Yupster]

92. Same era, same experience here too Biggjawn

We all also each carried a pocket knife to school every day and no one cared very much. I had one teacher bug me about it in third or fourth grade because I was sharpening my pencil at my desk with it.

In the movie dodgeball they have that old 1950's documentary black and white film they watch. That brought back memories.

[HeeBGBz]

30. At my 20 year high school reunion

A classmate told me he always admired me because I could take a dodgeball hit to the face and shake it off without crying.

Kind of a backhanded (literally) compliment.

[JanMichael]

104. I'm 37, graduated in 1986, and dodgeball was played.

Plus I went to 4 elementary schools, 2 JHSs, and 3 HSs, in three states so I have a pretty good anecdotal sample.

That's the mid-70's through the mid-80's.

[Blue Diadem]

106. They play dodge ball here in first grade in gym class

My granddaughter came home a few weeks ago and told me she doesn't like it. I asked if the ball was soft and she said it was but she didn't like it hitting her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. I don't think our kids play it in gym class

But if they do I am sure it is with a very soft ball.

[Blue Diadem]

124. Do the older kids still use medicine balls?

My granddaughter's situation brought about a conversation with my daughter, son and his fiance talking about their medicine ball days at school. Not sure if it was middle school or high school..but they said some times it got crazy and people got smacked pretty hard with them.

I think it all depends on the school districts. I don't remember my kids playing dodge ball so young. My granddaughter was quite hurt that people could intentionally throw something to hit someone else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. I don't believe we have any of those at my school so I will say no

I don't know about middle school though.

[donco6]

152. I haven't seen one of those in 30 years.

Maybe some schools have them lying around somewhere, but no PE teacher worth his/her salt would keep one around.

[Blue Diadem]

157. They were using them here in the 90's

That's when my kids and my son's fiance used them. I know they all had the same PE teacher..he'd been there for years.

[Blue Diadem]

177. for clarification

I hope no one took my post as the school/kids using medicine balls during dodge ball. Medicine balls were used separately. They did get wild while tossing them back and forth and people would get hurt..beside the usual jammed finger type thing.

[Mutley]

180. We did when I was in school.

But the rules were to hit from the waist down only. Any kid who aimed above the waist got a trip to the principle's office.

[sandnsea]

7. My kids weren't allowed... in Montana

Kids can put rocks in snowballs, or pack them so it's like throwing an ice cube at somebody. Not good. My kids' schools in Montana didn't allow throwing snowballs. Treated it just like throwing rocks or anything else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. A voice of reason

phew :)

[immoderate]

98. Snowballs can be dangerous.

As a child in the sixties in NYC, we were not allowed to pick up any snow to or from school or anywhere in between. Well packed snowballs can be as dangerous as a rock. Even regular snowball fights lend themselves to bullying. As a teacher, I was pretty happy that the school enforced a no snow throwing rule. At home, it was different. We threw snow around the neighborhood. Even the adults chimed in sometimes.

Dodgeball is no comparison.

--IMM

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. We don't let our kids pick up snow either

or kick it.

Every one of these poopooers here needs to come spend ONE day with kids on a playground full of snow. They would figure it out real quick. Heck, it doesn't even need to be an entire day - how about just a half hour? LOL

[immoderate]

156. Yep. And I like to give my students as much freedom as possible!

But let them at the snow and you'll have crying and injured kids piling up in no time. What about those who don't want to be pummeled with snow balls? What do you do with the crying little ones who want protection? Can you say "Sorry, there's no rule against Johnny, Bobby, Tommy, Jose, Leroy, Chung, Jamal, and Ananda pounding you with those snowballs." It's like legalizing beatings.

On edit: BTW, this is assault and battery. Schools must forbid it.

--IMM

[donco6]

108. We absolutely prohibit it here in Colorado, too.

Too many injuries at school. Just not safe.

[rpannier]

8. This why I'm glad I live in Korea

My daughters are not subjected to this kind of hysteria at their school.

[Ciggies and coffee]

15. I feel sad for kids nowadays

"Anything that disturbs that or disrupts that is inappropriate on a school campus," Neece said. "Anything that could cause injury, or could cause a student to get upset and instigate a fight, or damage students' personal property is just inappropriate behavior."

The kids were friends, you ass. Could? Walking down the damn stairs could cause injury.

Why dont kids have a right to settle matters, even though this one was not confrontational?
If all parties to the incident wish to "forgive" the others it, the school should have no right to punish them. And real fights may lead to friendships instead of creating enemies or worse.


"Savala's mother Martha Valdez called the boys' actions "harmless" but said she supported the decision by school officials."

I am beyond words, or the media is twisting them

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Friends fight all the time

I can't believe anyone here thinks schools should let kids throw things at each other. That is completely nuts.

[Occulus]

31. Yeah.

For that reason and that reason alone, we NEED to ban all sports.

Sports have kids throwing things at each other on a regular basis. Why, kids- in school sanctioned sports, mind you- have actually been KILLED playing sports!

...and, unlike your position, mine has a whole lot of truth to it. Oh, I see.

Sports are DIFFERENT. I suppose, as usual, athletes get a pass for the things that get OTHER people suspended.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. What sport that schools sanction involves kids throwing things

at each other and NOT a target, like a goal or a backstop????

[Occulus]

40. Football. Basketball.

There have been kids hit in the chest by an errant pitch and then drop dead on their way to first base. Freak accident, but it has happened.

I remember learning that if you get hit at *just* the right time (between? or during?) a single heartbeat, it can cause the heart to stop.

Not all sports involve ONLY throwing at a target. Many sports involve "throwing things" at your own team members. Furthermore, many schools teach archery as part of their phys ed class.

By your logic, sports must also be banned.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Sorry - those sports involve throwing things at goals

and CATCHING balls, not using kids as targets.

[Occulus]

47. And I'm sure that's ALWAYS the case.

Dodgeball. Something still played in the playground of my old elementary school.

"Target" is defined as "receiver" in football, IIRC. Then there's track, where one can easily fall and break a leg, and swimmers are known to occasionally cramp. Drowning is a real possibility, even WITH all the safety equipment.

Do high school still use hurdles? I always thought that was too dangerous (and no, I'm NOT joking- I could very very easily see myself not making it over one and smashing my face in on the track.)

If sports inherently contain an element of danger of physical harm, possibly resulting in paralysis or death, they ought to be banned.

Number one on my list is football.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I said upthread I know of NO schools that allow dodge ball

It is too dangerous. This article is about banning snow ball fights - and you really believe dodge ball is okay? LOL

[BlackVelvet04]

88. Dodgeball is too dangerous?????

Well, let's just pack the kids in wads of cotton and prevent them from ever taking a bump or getting a bruise. No wonder kids are such little whiney weenies these days.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. So letting them throw things at each other is okay with you?

hmmm

[BlackVelvet04]

142. We aren't talking knives are we?

We are talking SNOWBALLS for God's sake.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. Well call me a killjoy

along with the other teachers on this thread, but I don't let my students throw ANYTHING at each other.

[Thor_MN]

76. Are you going to ban Kickball too?

That involves throwing the ball at a person - you can put out a runner by hitting them with the ball.

Kids who are never allowed to scrape a knee or get a bloody nose are ill prepared to face life. If I were to be injured and bleeding, I would prefer to be surrounded by people who have seen the sight of blood, not people who were mollycoddled all their life, freaked out and panic ridden.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. Kickball is still allowed and it's pretty popular too

I don't even remember the last time a kid got hurt playing kickball on my watch. Don't think it has ever happened, actually. However, I can tell about kids being hurt quite seriously after being hit by a snowball.

Kids who get hurt at school have parents who file lawsuits. Put yourself in the school's place. What would you do? Let them continue the dangerous activity and invite a lawsuit? I doubt it.

[Mutley]

182. Those rubber balls are not nearly as dangerous as a really hard packed

snowball, or a snowball with a rock in it. You get hit in the face with a rubber ball, it'll sting, but you won't likely get a serious injury. Get hit in the face with a snowball with a rock inside and that could cause serious injury.

[neweurope]

17. Incredible... Poor children.

Why don't they just chain them to the benches?

What is wrong with this generation of parents? Reading posts from others my age on this board I know that things weren't always like that even in the USA. We had fights, we had accidents, and if I came home with bloody knees my mother was mad AT ME for having torn my clothes...

Children are children. Or should be, anyway. What kind of grown-ups will they be? With all those pent-up emotions? Of course you can give them medication to produce the automatons your society evidently wants to have; as I hear this is quite the fashion in the USA anyway.

Some posters have mentioned snowballs with rocks in them. Normal kids who are allowed to live out their frustrations don't do this. But, yes, some do and have done so in my youth, too. I even remember one child having to get one or two stitches after having been hit with a rock-snowball. I never heard of a child dying from a snowball, though. And the person who threw a rock-snowball did it exactly once - because all the others ganged up on him. Children are quite able to keep incidents like this under control by themselves. If we let them, that is.

There is never perfect safety. Life is always something "involving danger to life and limb". You can try and make things 100 % safe - but you take all the joy out of life doing so. And then who needs it?

-----------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[sandnsea]

18. I also worked for an opthalmologist

I've seen a 10 year old with no eye, because of an injury and I'm thinking it was a bb gun, IIRC. One of the saddest things I've ever seen. This stuff really does happen and schools have a right to try to limit the damage. They also don't have the same advantage of watching a kid go from grade to grade, to know their personality, so they know which kid to watch for more agressive behaviors or what makes this one and that one tick. They have new kids every year, smaller budgets for supervision, fewer parents able to volunteer, just an overall harder time. No, I don't think anybody got suspended for throwing a snowball at my kids' schools, that was extreme. But it was against the rules and there are solid reasons for it. We all used to ride around in the backs of our dads' pick-up trucks and never wore seat belts either. We get smarter about what causes accidents and decided to be more pro-active in preventing some of them. That's all.

[neweurope]

20. As I said - chain them to the benches.

When they have to move to another room chain them together at the legs. That way you can be reasonably sure nothing will happen to them.

Of course accidents occur. That is sad. But that's no reason to forbid all children being children! And I'm NOT saying they should be allowed everything; growing up is learning to respect rules, too. But snowballs???

-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[nonconformist]

21. When I was 11, I slipped on the ice walking home from school

and broke my left arm.

Maybe we should ban walking.

[neweurope]

22. Maybe - but the ice!, you should definitely ban ice!

I would hate to have to live in your country. A country where a three-year old (or was he four?) is labeled a "sex offender" for kissing another three-year old (or was she four).

-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Link?

[Retired AF Dem]

97. Close enough

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-02-09-first-grader_x.htm

[neweurope]

115. I don't save links... I read it here on DU some months ago.

Sorry.

-----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. Well first of all that kid is in 1st grade, which means he is 6 or 7,

NOT 3 or 4.

Secondly, he was suspended. I don't see where anyone has labeled him a sex offender.

Nice attempt to excite the board though.

[sandnsea]

24. Well guess what

In those exact same towns in Montana, the law is that you have to shovel and salt your sidewalks by a certain time after it's snowed. So yeah, there's laws protecting your right to walk home safely too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. That is a law here too

And guess what? It became a law after someone slipped and was hurt and filed a lawsuit. :)

[BiggJawn]

34. It's the law here, too.

And guess what? It's NEVER enforced.
At least until this year, when the Ciy realized they could offset maybe $100,000 of lost tax revenue by "vigorous enforcement".

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Wait till someone sues the city

Then it will be enforced.

[alarimer]

74. They practically do

I know people that drive their kids to the bus stop, two blocks from their house.

[sandnsea]

23. The reason was explained

Yeah, kids did have always done things and always had accidents. And they were always disciplined when they did something dangerous, like throw a hard-packed snowball or something similar. The only difference now is it is written down in a rule book so everybody knows the rules. How horrible, having written down rules. Next thing you know adults will have rules they have to follow too, written down and everything!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Oh but we need to go back to the good ole days

where kids got to fall out of the back of pickup trucks cause it is a right of childhood to ride in the back of a pickup.

Then let's ban all car seats and seatbelts. Kids have been riding in cars for decades and so few of them have been killed because they weren't buckled in. So we lose a few - big deal.

We also should legalize all fireworks and let kids blow their fingers off. It's part of being a kid after all!

And BB guns - let's let every kid have one and bring it to school to play with at recess.

Ah, the good ole days.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. They can throw them all they want in your yard

and you can defend yourself from the lawsuit filed by the parent whose kid gets hurt. :)

The school is just being smart. They have an obligation to protect their kids.

[BiggJawn]

35. "Protect their kids"

Sorry, but if the prime concern is avoiding lawsuits, it ain't the KIDS they're protecting.

Unless "The Kids" is their pet name for their buttocks.

You should move to Illinois, where Big Business is trying to manipulate the laws so they can sell you any defective thing they want, or have some drunk cut out your liver instead of tieing your tubes, with NO fear of litigation.

The "Predatory Trial Lawyer" meme is a staple of the RW AM Radio lie machine, remember?

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Yes it is about protecting kids

and using dwindling resources to do just that, instead of fighting lawsuits.

[BiggJawn]

53. Whatever.

Sounds like Il Douche saying "Ah'm gonna MAKE JOBS by givin' mah best buds MORE'O thar own MUNNY!"

you paint a picture that leads me to believe that the school corporation lawyers are working 24/7 fending off frivolous lawsuits. I've heard Gush Pfleghmball say the same thing.

OK, whatever. Like I said, I'm glad as FUCK that my child-raising days are over. I couldn't handle this insanity.

Oh, hey, I wanted to mention this earlier, but did you know that back when my father was a boy that FIREARMS were considered appropriate for boys to have and use? Look in any "Popular Science" or "Mechanix Illustrated" from the 30's. Oh, and not just the ads, look at the "experiments" they published for young folks to try in the garage. ACID! FIRE! CHEMICALS! Oh, MY!

Now tell me, were they just un-enlightened back in the bad old days, or are our modern kids not as smart as their great-grandfathers?

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Do some research on accidental deaths of children

I think we as a society are obligated to prevent them.

[donco6]

154. School corporation lawyers . . . Ha!

I wish we had one, frankly. It would take a lot off of my plate. "Oh, George Esq., could you call this parent back? She wants to sue us because her child's picture was misplaced in the Senior yearbook. Oh, and this parent too - she says we owe for the ambulance ride to the hospital when her child fainted because she took her Prozac pills out of the medicine cabinet at home and took them at school. She doesn't have any insurance, you know. And these three parents too - their kids were sent home from the wrestling tournament because they were caught smoking pot in the hotel room. They didn't get to compete, so they want to sue us for messing up their kids' future. I think that's it - but I'll have more tomorrow."

These are all real situations I've had to deal with in the past year. No corporate lawyers - just me dealing with nasty, swearing, sometimes money-grubbing parents.

And don't even MENTION what we have to do to comply with OSHA regs for science labs.

[BiggJawn]

162. OSHA and science labs...

Yeah, I feel for today's kids.
Do you suppose they're allowed to discover how Gelatine solidifies?

When I was a 15-y-o 9th grader, I was taught how to operate one of THESE:

That's a Chandler-Price power platen printing press. 1-1/2 HP motor on it as I recall...

Oh, the HORRORS! What WAS the school board THINKING???? Their job was to protect me from hangnails and Reality and jettison me in my 18th year unfit for Adult Life...

[donco6]

153. Lawsuits hurt ALL kids.

As I posted before, we defended against a SUCCESSFUL lawsuit just recently. The total cost to us was $100,000 - out of OUR money, not insurance. That money pulled resources out of our classrooms, which hurts YOUR kid. I can't make that money reappear.

[Occulus]

37. Which is why, as I said, they need to ban all their sports.

Unless you see a distinction between kids throwing things at each other and... ah... kids throwing things at each other.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. And I want you to answer my question

What sport involves participants throwing things at each other?

[Occulus]

43. I just did, upthread. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. And I responded

Until someone invents a sport where the participants wear targets and throw things at each other, and that sport is played at school, your point is silly.

[Occulus]

52. You just shifted the goalposts.

You criteria was NEVER "wear targets", until this moment.

YOU LOSE this debate. AND you're getting ignored to boot.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. The point is the goalpost is the target,

not another player.

[tyedyeto]

65. Baseball

Pitcher throws the ball at the catcher (another player). Yes, the catcher has a mitt but often the ball misses the target. And Often the pitcher will make the batter the target and throw the ball at said target. Should baseball be banned?

[Occulus]

67. See how ridiculous it is when it's put that way?

Someone "might" get hurt in ever sport. Logically, if we factor in this incident, sports in schools should not be allowed because someone "might" get hurt.

It makes my brain hurt trying to understand the illogic.

[tyedyeto]

71. My brain hurts, too. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. "Yes, the catcher has a mitt"

and the actual target is the mitt, not the catcher.

[tyedyeto]

69. The target is not the mitt

It is the catcher's hand which happens to have a mitt on it. The pitcher is still throwing the ball at a person. Again, should it be banned?

[Occulus]

75. I've seen players get beaned in the HEAD.

By a BASEBALL. Traveling at OVER 50 MPH.

AT A SCHOOL.

Fuck YES- according to dont-let-a-kid-have-even-a-fleafart-of-a-chance-of-injury over there, YES. It SHOULD be banned.

Jesus H. fucking CHRIST ON A SIDECAR.

For THAT matter, I've also read about/heard about kids breaking all sorts of bones playing school sports. Broken arms, legs....

...necks....

[tyedyeto]

78. It should be, according to the logic that has been presented.

But the poster hasn't answered my question. Since it is 'sport' and not play, I guess that throwing objects is OK some of the time. :shrug:

Kids just can't be kids today. <sigh>

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. And don't they wear helmets?

I have never seen them in a snowball fight.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. He's wearing a mitt

and catching the ball. Take the mitt away and have the catcher stand there while the pitcher throws the ball at him (and take the batter away too) and you have a valid comparison.

[BlackVelvet04]

89. You think it's valid to compare a baseball to a snowball?

LOL What the hell is going on in this country? Life's dangerous...get over it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. Parents sue - get over it.

Kids get hurt - but I guess you think that is okay. :crazy:

[BlackVelvet04]

141. Kids will get hurt no matter what you do......

so I think it's ridiculous to think otherwise. Makes me wonder how any of us made it to middle age. We played on metal jungle gyms and rode bicycles without helmets....HORROR. I have 4 siblings and we played in the woods, rode bicyles, skated, played dodgeball, had acorn fights, etc. etc. and guess what? Nobody lost an eye, nobody broke their neck and not one of us ever broke a bone.

YES people have accidents, including children and to think we can avoid that, or want to at all costs is RIDICULOUS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. We have an obligation to keep them safe

BECAUSE they tend to have accidents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. The pitcher is NOT throwing the ball at a person

The actual target is a strike zone which is NOT a person's body.

[Retired AF Dem]

95. Could this be the reason so many teens get killed driving cars?

Being over protected as kids and having no idea of consequences that cause pain?

[Thor_MN]

81. Kickball. In Hockey, the goalie's rasion d'etre is to BECOME the target

of a frozen hunk of rubber.

The only way to mollycoddle children in the way it appears you want to is to ban all sports, encase them in bubble wrap from the moment they leave their doors to go to school until they return that evening. No staplers, paperclips, scissors, rubber bamds allowed in school buildings. No bound books on the chance that someone might throw one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. No, the goalie kicks the puck back

and the actual goal is the little area behind the goalie.

Sorry, I don't know any classrooms where the KIDS are allowed to have staplers, paper clips (they make great poking weapons) or rubber bands. Teachers have them, not the kids.

[Thor_MN]

160. Never watched any hockey huh? The goalie TRIES to get in the way of the

puck.

The person shooting the puck is aiming at the goal, which no goalie considers little. But the goalie tries to get in the way. Should it be banned as well.

You dodged on kickball as well, the runner can be put out by throwing the ball AT the runner.

Scissors?? No kids in your school ever used scissors? I noticed you ignored that one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. And the goalie is trying to hit the puck and send it away from the goal

Plus he wears padding and a face mask.

A kickball can't do the same damage as a snowball made of ice or filled with rocks. It is a soft rubber ball.

Kids use kid scissors. They are much shorter, not pointy and some are even made of plastic.

Next?

We haven't discussed 4square or tetherball yet. :)

[sandnsea]

103. Supervision, DUH

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

102. Or call the cops, who WILL haul those kids in

I know all about that too. Snowballs can also break windows and people don't like it so much. :)

And no, I wasn't the one calling the cops. I don't do that sort of thing, but other people sure do.

[neweurope]

119. The school probably is just being smart, yes.

So the problem are all those people filing law suits :)

If a kid had thrown a rock at me and I would have needed stitches or the like my parents would have never thought of a lawsuit. The other child would have been punished by his parents and that would have been it.

-----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. How much did it cost to have those stitches put in when you were a kid?

How much does it cost today? If you didn't have health insurance, could you afford to pay for stitches?

[neweurope]

134. In Germany it doesn't cost us anything :)

The answer evidently is to finally get good health care even for the poor - instead of suing each other *sigh*

-----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[proud2BlibKansan]

147. How true

[Retired AF Dem]

155. There is plenty of suing going on in Germany

unlike the states though there are caps on how much money can be collected.

[neweurope]

158. The sums to be achieved are not even comparable. Germans

have their mouths open with astonishment when they hear what's going on in the US. While it's true that people sue more in Germany than they used to I have never encountered suing it myself, meaning among the poeple I know and the people they know and the people those know... Not once.

----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[durablend]

94. HA HA HA HA HA

Maybe it's just being jaded from the kids in the neighborhood around here, but I sure as hell wouldn't expect them to control themselves. Hell, some of them actually get off on causing injuries or property damage (I guess that be those kids "living out those frustrations").

Getting back to your original thought, it seems like the attitude of many parents nowadays is "Don't bother me and don't get arrested...otherwise, get lost"

[nonconformist]

19. Ridiculous. nt

[donco6]

33. Sounds right to me.

Pickup truck full of melting snow for a before school snowball fight. Melting snow packing into hard icy snowballs. Disrupting the school day, of which there aren't enough as it is.

I'd have done the same thing.

[Occulus]

45. It wasn't DURING the day, was it?

Wasn't it BEFORE classes started?

Geez... next thing you know, schools will be telling kids they can be suspended for things they do OFF the property, OUT of school that....

Oh, wait. Haven't there been stories posted here about kids getting suspended for things they say in their blogs?

What this leads to: kids who grow up to think it's okay for their employer to be able to tell them what they may and may not do off the clock, at home, in their own space. Ref: Weyco.

[countingbluecars]

46. So if I'm walking into

the school building with my arms full of books, and I get hit in the back of the head with a snowball-that's fine with you?

[Occulus]

49. I'd giggle as I helped you brush it off.

Wouldn't want you to melt, you know.

For FUCKS sake, people, IT'S A DAMN SNOWBALL!!

Next thing you know, schools will be considering butter knives weapons.

Oh, wait- THEY ALREADY DO.

[countingbluecars]

59. Would you giggle too

if someone got hurt?

[Occulus]

66. No, but then,

You didn't define the snowball in question as being full of rocks or ice. A snowball, to me, is a packed ball of snow.

I haven't- ever- heard of anyone getting hurt by a snowball. Rockballs or iceballs, yes, but never ever a SNOWBALL.

Snow. Ball. No rocks. No ice. That's what we're talking about here.

You know- if everyone here reacted this way about every instance in which (if we were really being honest about this) someone "could get hurt", nobody would be allowed to drive to school, participate in sports (including marching band- you can get teeth knocked out doing that, too), or even walk up the stairs to their next class, among many many other things.

[durablend]

96. A snowball's. a snowball, a snowball

Sorry, but I don't see many kids making the distinction to think "Gee, if I throw this piece of ice, I might hurt somebody or damage something". All they know is to run like hell if something does happen and DENY DENY DENY if they do get caught.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Oh, CBC, where is your sense of adventure?

We should let kids deliberately throw things and try to hurt each other. It would toughen them up. If a teacher got hit in the process, too f-ing bad.

:sarcasm:

[countingbluecars]

80. I'm just such a killjoy!

Maybe I should reconsider and allow my students to start each day with some sort of fight-get the ole competitive juices flowing. To heck with respect and cooperation in the learning environment.

Seriously, though, I have no problem with a friendly snowball fight-at home with people who want to play.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Reminds me of one of the bad groups I had

I got sick of talking to them about self-control and their failure to exercise it. So one day I brought in one of those huge bags of candy. It was 5 or 6 pounds and had a great mixture of everyone's favorite. I had the kids count it first thing in the morning. We also did some sorting and graphing. (Had to bring in the Math activities:) )

Then I poured it all into a great big bowl and put it on a desk right in the middle of the classroom. I told the kids we would count it again at the end of the day and if all of it was still there, we would divide it up and they could take their share home.

Talk about self-control!! This was a special ed class. One of these kids was wearing an ankle bracelet and went 'home' to a juvenile facility every night (he was a 9 year old arsonist); a couple of the others were 'BD' kids (Behavior Disordered, but we used to say it stood for 'bad' without the 'a'. Another one was just returning to school after a 6 month suspension for threatening to kill his teacher.

And those children didn't touch that candy all day long. My principal told me later that she thought I had lost my mind but was amazed at how that class calmed down after that day. All I had to do was remind them that they had proven they had self-control and should quit acting like they didn't.

[countingbluecars]

85. What a great lesson learned.

Success increases self-esteem which in turn increases success and so on!

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. You have to be creative with special ed kids

Maybe I should let them throw snowballs at each other?

You know I usually do let them build a snowman on the playground. I don't know any other teachers who do that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. You need to spend ONE day in the school office

answering phone calls from angry parents. Then maybe you would understand.

My eyes were opened my first year of teaching when a kid in my class got paint on her uniform and her mom went ballistic, demanding that the school buy her a new uniform since the paint wouldn't wash out. Oh, and of course, it was MY fault for actually allowing the kids to PAINT in class.

Guess what? I have NEVER had kids paint since then. I learned my lesson. :)

[BlackVelvet04]

90. Yeah, that's fine with me. Damn, what a bunch of weenies

Americans have turned in to.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. On school property

the school has the right to prohibit certain types of activities, just like you have that right on YOUR property.

[donco6]

113. Actually, kids can be suspended for things done off school prop.

Happens all the time. Just had a kid at a basketball tourney sneak out, get drunk and come back to the motel. Suspended. Appropriately.

As for the blog thing - I dunno - didn't read the blog. But if you're a student, and you're libeling a teacher or administrator, yes, that can be cause for suspension. From what I read of the articles, the material fit the legal definition of libel - the material was defamatory on it's face, the person was identifiable to one or more persons, and the material was distributed to someone other than the offended party. Pretty clear cut, IMO.

Sometimes people just need to get the facts before they fly off the handle about sensational headlines.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. It's really pretty devious

They drove to get the snow, packed it into the truck and brought it to school. It's not at all like it had just snowed, they were out at recess and started throwing snowballs at each other.

[donco6]

116. And think about the condition of that snow.

The only thing you COULD make out of it is ice balls. It's going to be half melted before you get down from the mountains.

I believe the suspension was completely appropriate.

[Deja Q]

42. I'm sure the real bullies and verbal instigators will remain free.

What else is new?

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. How true

They are usually smart enough to just instigate and not participate.

[LisaL]

50. I see nothing wrong with suspending them.

If student was to get injured during a snow ball fight, who do you think the parents were going to sue? School has to do things to protect itself now days.

[Occulus]

62. Why not do the reasonable thing...

...and come up with, oh, I don't know, maybe RULES for SANCTIONED snowball fights?

Geez. This isn't difficult...

1) NO ROCKS. Packing rocks into snowballs voids the game, play is halted, and the team with the member hit by the rockball wins. In other words, your team forefits the game.

2) NO ICEBALLS. Same thing.

3) participants will face each other X feet apart, optionally behind Y barrier. A "snow fort" is preferred.

OPTION: "Capture the flag".

Good GOD, why ban it when it's so incredibly, childishly easy to make up some rules? I say childishly easy because THESE ARE THE RULES I and my friends used when we were kids.

It would be a nice change of pace in a winter term's phys ed class.

[donco6]

101. Very true.

I'd bet half the parents writing on this string would be in line to sue if Johnny got hit by an ice ball (which is all you'd have in a pickup truck full of snow hauled down from the mountains). "Why didn't you get in and stop them!" they'll wail. "Who brought all that ice anyway? And why aren't they expelled!"

I've heard it all before.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. Parents want discipline

when it is some OTHER kid, and not their own.

[donco6]

133. No effing kidding.

ALL OTHER kids are bad! My child is an angel.

I've seen this argument in expulsion hearings with a kid that brought brass knuckles to school.

We can't win.

[Beelzebud]

58. You know we're becoming a nation of wimps when a snowball fight is grounds

for punishment...

A nation of wimps...

[Occulus]

63. Next thing you know

chewed up wads of paper shot from a straw will be considered grounds for expulsion....

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. That can get you suspended in just about every school

It's called DISRUPTION. But hey, I guess you think we should let them do whatever they want. They are just kids having a good time, after all. Of course, when those test scores don't make the grade, who cares? The kids sure had a good time at school. And when their school is re-organized and the kids all get to go to another school (the current punishment for not making the grade), it is no big deal; the kids had FUN. And if they can't read and write after 12 years of such fun, who cares? They are just kids. They sure enjoyed those snowball fights and spitballs. Thats why they come to school, is it not?

:sarcasm:

[neweurope]

130. You know, here in Germany in my days - I'm 52 now - school

damn sure was no fun. Children were still beaten then by their teachers. It was all about learning and discipline. But we DID HAVE SNOWBALL FIGHTS. Nobody got hurt, nobody turned out to be a mass murderer as far as I know, and we had an excellent education. I understand times are different now, and we're talking about the USA and not Germany. But I still cannot understand it.


-----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[donco6]

110. Not true.

We prohibit snowball fights or even snowball throwing at all of our schools. I'd bet almost all Colorado schools forbid it. It's not safe. And it's not a sign of anything wimpy. Just avoiding a preventable injury.

[MrSlayer]

150. My sentiments exactly.

The pussification of America continues.

[bleedingheart]

175. they can fight on their own property....

they just can't do it on mine...

[Odin2005]

82. Sounds like they are covering thier asses from being sued by whiny parents

People want to know why kids are so lazy these days, look no further than BS like this.

[BlackVelvet04]

91. This is exactly why parents are so willing

to let little johnny be a couch potato spending his whole free time playing video games....it's so much safer, isn't it? We get a whole generation of kids who don't know how to deal with real people and real life, who are grossly overweight and whiney little pains in the ass. Nobody ever guaranteed life was safe....you try to take all of the risk out of life and you never live you just sit around in fear trying to be friggin' safe.

I hate what this country has become.

[SammyBlue]

93. hear hear! agree 100% eom

[donco6]

100. So bad parenting is the schools' fault because they

didn't let them do what they want?

Brother.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Damn you beat me to it

:rofl:

[donco6]

139. Well, Jesus.

That bit of logic just twisted my neurons so badly I couldn't delay.

Can you believe this thread?????

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. I want all of these snowball fight proponents to come do my job for ONE

day. Or one hour on a playground packed with snow. Or like I said earlier, come answer the phone and talk to some of these loony parents. That would make believers out of them.

We all could write a book (and a damned entertaining one at that) full of stories about those phone calls. LOL

I actually had a parent last year hang up on ME and then call the school back to complain that I had called her at home during the day. See, that was HER time and "if you all don't know how to make my kid mind, why the hell are you asking ME to help?" Heck I could write a whole book about that parent alone. She got furious when her kid got suspended for telling a 9 year old girl that he wanted to fuck her. Her excuse (this is an all time classic): "Well that little girl is Mexican and I told him he couldn't date any Mexican girls." She not only called the school, she called the superintendent AND the state education commissioner.

I feel reasonably certain this parent thinks snowball fights are okay too. Heck I would call her and ask but she'd probably hang up on me. LOL

[BlackVelvet04]

144. Don't be obtuse.

I'm not blaming bad parenting on the schools, I'm talking about the whole stupid attitude that kids should be wrapped up in cotton to protect them from all of life's bumps and bruises. The parents are dumber than dirt to require that kind of "protect at all costs" environment for their children. No wonder this country is full of neurotic people.

[donco6]

151. I'm glad about that, then.

But the fact is, the overwhelming expectation from parents I talk to is that if something happens to their child at school, a) it's my fault, and b) I'd better pay for it. So is it really unreasonable to want to avoid activities that are just ASKING for injury? Snowballs are one of those - no question about it.

I'd love for parents to have different attitudes, but they don't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. Yet school buses don't have seatbelts

Go figure.

[donco6]

165. It's coming.

All preschoolers now have to have 3 point harnesses.

Belts for everyone will be mandated within 3 years, I'd bet.

[proud2BlibKansan]

166. I hope so

The seat belts would keep the kids in their seats. That alone would be a significant improvement.

[donco6]

99. So it would be OK to be sued by whiney parents?

The last lawsuit we faced forced us to spend almost $100,000 on attorney fees - and WE WON. That was $100,000 out of our school funding - not insurance, not the magic money tree, not fundraisers - out of the money that should have gone to educate YOUR kids.

I don't see anything wrong with protecting the education environment. It's hard enough to keep kids focused on our mission. The punishment fit the crime in this case.

[hedgehog]

120. I think this is another case of having half the story

How do we know this wasn't the "cool" kids throwing snow balls at the kids who aren't so cool? How do we know that a snowball today won't result in a knife coming to school tomorrow? Think I'm exaggerating? Fights go on at high schools over stupid junk every day of the week. Up here in Oswego NY there was a dumb death last week-end when some out-of-town frat boys (college age)broke into a house to carry on a feud with another fraternity. They got the wrong house, and one of the frat boys ended up dead when the homeowner fought back with a knife. It's amazing how fast "simple fun" can go bad.

[MilesColtrane]

121. One quick point here....

If all the kids had access to the snowballs, it was a snowball fight.
If not, it was just two seniors being assholes and wailing on other kids. And that deserves to be punished.

[neweurope]

136. Now that I can finally agree to :)

Older children against younger I wouldn't tolerate.

-----------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[misternormal]

132. Rule: No fun in the No Fun Zone... n/t

[countingbluecars]

135. Kids can have lots of fun

in school without throwing things at each other.

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. Oh don't be such a spoil sport

If they aren't getting hurt, how can it be fun? :)

[countingbluecars]

143. I know, I know,

I am such a killjoy!

Hey, why stop at school? Why not take a couple of pickup truck loads of snow and start fights in the McDonald's parking lot, in front of the local grocery store, in the church parking lot before Sunday school, etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. Which church?

:rofl:

[ScreamingMeemie]

170. Why is this News? We faced supensions wayyyy back in the 80's

for snowball fights. I am a mom and I see nothing wrong with this. Snowball fights at home? Fine. At school? Not really. Call me crazy, but I can see something like this turning into a bullying, "smear the queer" type thing. Kudos to the principal for seeing this and stopping it.

[bleedingheart]

174. You know why the Schools are so hyper? The Parents

You see there are kids today that would call home and cry that they got hit with a snowball and a parent would call in and before you know it...what started as fun ends up being settled by lawyers.

I have also seen snowball fights that have ended up with problems...like the time I was at the bus stop and the kids were having a snowball fight and they decided to start hitting passing cars instead...wooo weee....oh the fun until someone in the neighborhood called the cops and then it isn't so funny....I remember going home and having my mother drive me because I knew that hitting the cars was a dumb idea...and boy was I glad I did that.

By the way, if they wanted to have this little ritual...why not do it at home?

Additionally...try that trick in the parking lot of a grocery store...see how they will react to that behavior as well...

[Buns_of_Fire]

176. It's a miracle I survived long enough to post on this board

In retrospect, had I known all the hazards of being a kid at the time, I think I would have just skipped that phase of my life altogether.

[Blue Diadem]

178. Way back in the 60's/early 70's we weren't allowed to throw snowballs

at school. It was against school rules back then. I remember some kids throwing them but they would always stop when told to do so.

I can only imagine that what happened that day created total chaos and imo, was inappropriate on school grounds.

[mac56]

181. And yet the Taliban's top spokesman is now a Yale student.

But high school students get busted for bringing snowballs.

Dude! WTF?!

[Greyhound]

183. California is simply a Democratic Police State. Other side of the

same coin. Way too restrictive of personal freedoms and the corporations still get to fuck whoever they want.