The Right(eous)ness of Howard Dean

[dave29]

Who said Iraq would devolve into civil war if we weren't careful?

Who said we shouldn't be there in the first place?

Who said we weren't safer because Saddam was captured?

Who asked in 2003 what we were doing to secure our ports and prevent nuclear materials from getting in?

Who has said all along that the Democrats are better on security?

It sucks being right all the time, especially when everyone calls you crazy.

edit to add: Howard speaks for me! :toast:

[pstans]

1. Dean speaks for me

:yourock:

[calimary]

60. ...and for me, too.

I LOVE Howard Dean.

Always have. Always will. Every day, everything he does, makes me love him more. And yes, he was spot-on about all those things in the OP. ALL those things. And he's doing good by our party, too - building it from the ground up.

[Upfront]

2. Right You Are!

Howard is out ahead of the rest every time. Hell, I think he would make a great President. Oh ya, been there.

[napi21]

3. Yup, and that's only a small # of the things he's right about!

Too damn bad only a few listened!

[dave29]

4. just a few from the top of my head :)

He's been dead on - on just about everything

[LaurenG]

5. Dave29 we have all been so screwed over-

I really am sick of being a victim of this insane bunch. I can't get over how bad this feels. BTW I backed Howard I really liked him.

[dave29]

37. I look forward to making them the victims

of a landslide loss in November... and then rallying our House and Senate to impeach half of this administration.

[Pharaoh]

6. Hear Hear!!!

Howard speaks truth to power..............

Howard speaks for me.........:toast:

[depakid]

7. Who said

Never trust Republicans with your money?

[dave29]

27. so true

check out the running total on Iraq:

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

currently 243 billion, at least 100,000 souls, and counting.

[Mabus]

8. Made it five

As a former Dean delegate I have to agree.

[AlCzervik]

9. Howard really does give them--with the truth.

[understandinglife]

10. Excellent!

Peace.

[raggedcompany]

11. Dean speaks for me better than any other (living) big league politician.

But that's not saying much.

[spanone]

12. K&R

[Pharaoh]

13. I love You Howie!!

:toast: :party: :toast: :party: :hippie: :bounce:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

14. HoDo, my teenage daughter's nickname for him. We LOVE the guy in our

home! MKJ

[PassingFair]

15. He's still on my refrigerator!

And the side of my computer.
And the bumper of my car.

Damn the skulduggery, full speed ahead at the lower levels!

[HootieMcBoob]

16. kick n/t

[MelissaB]

17. I'm drinking to that!

:toast:

[dave29]

30. I may just do the same

:toast:

[madfloridian]

18. Link to what I think...and a recommend.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x514459

To edit: He was most definitely ready for prime time IMHO.

[dave29]

26. he was too ready for Prime Time

I always think of the Ghandi quote when I think of Dean:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"

and you are right, Democrats tend to get stuck navel gazing when it comes to candidates... Republicans don't believe in navel gazing, because only God can know what you might find in there.

Their candidates exploit this to no end... and we end up where we are today.

Ironically the solution to our problems is to have more faith in ourselves, and never hesitate to stand up against those who are hopelessly inept, corrupt, and patholigically uninterested in a worldview that conflicts with their own.

[madfloridian]

28. I know it, you know it. For sure.

He was just too truthful to suit the right people.

:hi:

[dave29]

29. I added some comments after reading your post

sorry, got called away for a bit, but wanted to respond more fully.

:hi:

[stickdog]

19. Yep. (nt)

[upi402]

20. Can someone help me understand

why my hero (and the beneficiary of a good chunk of my change) has been on the soapbox to get the DINO Maria Cantwell elected?
People in Washington are sick of her betrayal. Has the DLC corrupted a good guy? Cantwell wont change, she was swamped with letters to filibuster Alito, and she refused her Democratic constituants.
Now my man wants to get her re-elected, and in so doing keep a Democrat out of a Senate seat. We need a chance to vote for Democrats, not to choose between 2 Republicans.

So now even her women supporters are pissed because Scalito will erode 'Choice'. -Of course!

What is Dean's thinking here?

[madfloridian]

21. He said this:

I can find the exact quote if you wish. To this effect:

He said it is HIS job to get Democrats elected. He was questioned on it about candidates being urged out of races, and he said it is OUR job to chose them...that is what primaries are for, he said.

I think I will find the quote.

[upi402]

32. thank you! I heard the audio clip but I'm sure there's context missing

still in all, the nut was; We need to get Democrats like Maria Cantwell elected again. -Something like that.

[madfloridian]

49. Of course he would say that. What do you expect him to say.

I think we are basically saying the same thing.

[upi402]

55. I'd expect Dean to say that Republicans should get out.

Maybe he is no champion of the Democratic party that used to be.
Maybe we don't deserve a real opposition party.
Maybe we can't hold onto our republic.

Some things are certain if we continue to have DINOs supplanting Dems in our party;
There is no chance of getting health care reform.
There is no chance of FAIR trade, instead of 'giving away the farm' trade.
There is no chance of the fairness doctrine reinstated to restrain corporate propaganda in the media.
There is no chance of corporatism ending and our republic returning.

IMHO, either Dean goofed up, or he has shown that he is a corporatist and not a populist.

[progressivebydesign]

24. Cantwell a DINO??? Say what??

Sometimes I think Democrats love shooting themselves in the foot and eating their own. I have yet to hear ONE person here in washington refer to Cantwell as anything but a good friend of the party.

[upi402]

31. huh? There was a long and lively thread about her DINOness

just after Alito getting his vote

People are mad as hell and want our party back all over this country.
I wont belabor the transgressions against American workers, but she is no friend of the vast majority of America who need to work to live indoors.

I'll vote Republican before I vote for a Republican inside my former party, who prevents us from having an opposition party.

Have you seen the PBS documentary from the mid nineties, "The Betrayal of Democracy"?

Also;
Barlett and Steele, I believe, had a book from about the same period, "America, What went Wrong"
(hope I recall correctly there)

That's a good foundation for what happened to our party and the shift to the right of Americans in general.
Of course, rightists have made steady progress since, but to track from 15 years ago makes today's condition very clear.

[upi402]

34. god, i just get sad when i see this

"Sometimes I think Democrats love shooting themselves in the foot and eating their own"

it just seems so apparent that we shoot ourselves in the foot by electing Republicans to the Democratic Party.
it seems so futile sometimes. so tired of swimming upstream in america.

it's so discouraging after struggling for decades to hear my compatriots post this sort of thing.

i hope it comes to a head soon. one way or the other.

sorry, just bummed out here.

[dave29]

36. there is some nuance you are not catching

alot of DINO's wouldn't be DINO's if we had the house and Senate... which we don't. Unfortunately, politcs, cynic maker that it is, is a reality we have to live with. Maria Cantwell BARELY won her election. She is walking a fine line. I don't like it, and you don't like it, but until we own the House and Senate, we're likely to still suffer DINO attacks.

Find us a plainspoken person who can do better than Cantwell, and stands up for Democratic Ideals, and work to get them elected. It's not as hard as it seems, as Dean has been proving.

[upi402]

41. dry powder in record supply -LOL

Thanks -and I've already taken your advice!
I have $$$ to Mark Wilson to run against the DINO. She really is a Republican. She refused to vote for filibustering Alito. She is an anti-worker corporatist. She sides with Bush more than she does with us.

[IronLionZion]

48. Maria Cantwell on the issues

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Maria_Cantwell.htm

She looks reasonable to me. :shrug:

[Mythsaje]

52. NAFTA, CAFTA, and Alito... to name a few...

I'm no fan of Cantwell... I think she belongs to the corporatists.

http://www.votemark.org

[madfloridian]

25. Here is his quote. He has his job. We have ours.

I know nothing about Cantwell, but here is his general statement when asked about general situations.

"My job is to get Democrats elected. I don't pick the Democrats; that's your job. That's what elections are for, that's what primaries are for."


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/21/22833/1156

[upi402]

33. that's a different statement -i heard him say 'get M Cantwell elected ...

again.

(from the article you cited, it says 'LD' which should mean Legislative District -not Congressional Senate)
REPUB-LITE DEMS
At the PCO training, one man asked Dean: what do we do about people like my Dem senator (he meant his LD senator, I believe) who does not act on core Democratic principles. Dean smiled a bit nervously; he did not want to mention any names ("certainly not Lieberman") but he said: "My job is to get Democrats elected. I don't pick the Democrats; that's your job. That's what elections are for, that's what primaries are for."

[dave29]

35. So who is the alternative Dean should be promoting?

It is not his job to sort out who the candidates are... just to get them elected. If there is a stronger Democratic candidate, Dean would certainly support them post primary.

It's also important to remember that one aspect of Dean's job is to promote Democrats, especially while they are in office. One of the things Republicans had (up until recent cluster$ucks) perfected was the art of solidarity. Dean sticks up for his party, and those that have been elected already.

Now, Dean still speaks his mind (and pays for it in the press ad nauseum). Recently he spoke out in reference to Hackett being forced out of the Ohio Primary race by insiders. He rarely speaks out against those who wronged him during the Presidential primary season, but you have to imagine this is a sore spot for him. He has a job to do, and he is focused on that. He has stated very clearly wants us to choose the best, and he wants us to SHOW UP.

If you don't like Cantwell, find someone better.

Howard Dean, with your help, will get that person elected.

[upi402]

40. Mark Wilson is against NAFTA and CAFTA, and pro-worker, etc

Check the rage against the machine in Cantwell's hometown;

http://www.am1090seattle.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3814#3814

Air America's radio station in Seattle; AM1090
register and take a peek!

They are furious with her! And this goes with what I've read and heard all over the place.
Dean should back the candidate who is nearer him and NOT the one nearer BUSH. IMHO
Check out this Mark Wilson, he's one of us!
http://www.votemark.org/

[dave29]

42. Is Mark Wilson a LINO?

http://www.votemark.org/articles/seattlepi_20051015.htm

From his website

So far, he hasn't made much of a dent by taking on three of the party's most popular politicians. As the Libertarian Party nominee for the 1st District congressional seat in 2002, he polled 3 percent against Jay Inslee. Last fall, he got 1 percent of the vote in a four-way Senate race won by Patty Murray.

Not to say I disagree with his current positions, but they hardly seem Libertarian...

[dave29]

43. He also ran as the Green party candidate

From his website

http://www.votemark.org/articles/TND_Longview_20051027.htm

Wilson collected only 1 percent of the vote as the Green Party candidate in 2004 against Democratic U.S. Sen. Patty Murray.

He received 3 percent of the vote in 2002 when he ran as a Libertarian in the 1st Congressional District.

Wilson advocates more government than Libertarians embrace, but he said he took their party label to gain a spot in public forums to espouse his pre-invasion, anti-war views.

Idealistic, yes... politically shrewd, no way.

[dave29]

44. In summation:

in response to your question about getting the chance to elect Democrats, your solution, Mark Wilson, appears to be a DINO in the literal sense... running for office from every major political party except the GOP.

He should just declare as Green again, since that is clearly where he stands priority-wise.


And.. I can't find any quotes in the news or google where Howard Dean is on a soap box saying we need to re-elect Cantwell. Please provide a link.

[upi402]

45. the Seattle PI link referred to is actually about Gov Gregoire, not Mark

Here's a Mark Wilson position from that article that is as Liberal as Dean;

"Meanwhile, Wilson is ready to exploit what he sees as a rift in the state's majority party. Even before Congress authorized the war, the Poulsbo businessman and Marine veteran was urging the party to vigorously oppose President Bush and the Iraq conflict. It's a signature issue as he barnstorms the state, meeting with local party groups and "peace and justice" groups."

The article slants his position as exploitative. As taking advantage. I'm sick of that shit! Where is the evidence to support such a spin? Why in the hell is there always an evil motive underneath opposing the war? I'm so sick of the corporate media.

Are you familiar with the Poulsbo area of Washington? Inslee is great, did you see him in the Downing Street "hearings"? He is popular with real Democrats all over who track pols.
:toast:
McDermot is out there too, in the west-Washington. A real Democrat could win that Senate seat AND ignite the base. Cantwell will get little enthusiasm. Can't see Dean's support of an obvious DINO. She voted NO for Alito AFTER it was moot, as she voted against filibuster. Voted for CAFTA, etc etc etc

[dave29]

46. unfortunately it's easy to slant someone who has changed party affiliation

twice... he may have all the right intentions, but you just can't come out and call him a solid Democrat.

And, if the piece is slanted... why is he putting it on his website?

[madfloridian]

51. He can not do that as chairman...he can not back a Green canididate.

Sorry, but that is reality.

[dave29]

54. I do wonder

if he sometimes misses the Green Mountains, though ;)

If you've ever been to Vermont, it's a lovely stretch of country.

[dave29]

38. Howard Dean was in Washington two days ago calling for grassroots

http://www.theolympian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060221/NEWS01/60221008&SearchID=73236365693146http://www.theolympian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060221/NEWS01/60221008&SearchID=73236365693146

if that link doesn't work, you can get to it from here:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/02/governor_dean_i_3.php

Democrats credited both President Bush and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean with bringing people to Saint Martin’s University Monday, as the state Democrats raised a record amount of money at their annual crab feed. <...> About 1,000 people registered for the day's events, and at least 200 more showed up for the crab feed, raising about $70,000, said party spokesman Viet Shelton.

Dean, addressing the crowd, said the party’s new "50-state strategy" of campaigning in all states, not just swing states, already is paying off. He cited recent Democratic wins in local elections in traditionally Republican states.

"If we can win in Mississippi, Alabama and Utah, Democrats can win anywhere in America," he said. "We're not going to win in 2008 if we don't go and stand there right now."

[IronLionZion]

47. He's thinking about democracy

and how there are primaries and general elections. And he supports the Democrat in the general election.

The only Dem I know of that Dean is actively trying to defeat is one in Texas. I forgot his name but Ciro Rodriguez is the real Dem who will beat him.

[progressivebydesign]

22. Howard Dean... man, I love that guy!

:grouphug: He was soooo railroaded by the GOP and his own party. He was SOO right.

[iamthebandfanman]

23. fantastical

thats the word i use to describe him ;)

[roguevalley]

39. he gets better every day, he's so tough. I love that man.

[ptolle]

50. double lynching?

I recall Mike Reagan( a premier asshat if ever there was one) calling, I believe on insannity's show, for Howard Dean to be hanged for his statement that the war in Iraq could not be won. I wonder what all the frightwingshriekers will do now that their gray eminence William F. Buckley has expressed in terms at least as clear as Mr. Dean's the very same conclusion. More here:http://www.dailykos.com/.
I don't know that this will get ole bill hanged, but it will probably get him permanently disinvited to any fux news programs.

[madokie]

53. He was my original pick for the dem candidate.

he scared the shit out of rove too. bush* doesn't have enough sense to be scared.

[welshTerrier2]

56. do you support his call to keep troops in Iraq thru 2007?

i'd like to hear those arguments ...

no, two-more-years-of-war Howard does NOT speak for me ...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

58. Link? n/t

MKJ

[welshTerrier2]

59. here are a few ...

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120300821.html

"But Dean stopped well short of embracing Murtha's call for a withdrawal plan that would redeploy all U.S. troops within about six months. Instead Dean called on Democrats to coalesce around a proposal that would keep some U.S. forces in Iraq for two more years."

source: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/02/20/democrats_may_unite_on_plan_to_pull_troops/

"The concept, dubbed ''strategic redeployment," is outlined in a slim, nine-page report coauthored by a former Reagan administration assistant Defense secretary, Lawrence J. Korb, in the fall. It sets a goal of a phased troop withdrawal that would take nearly all US troops out of Iraq by the end of 2007, although many Democrats disagree on whether troop draw-downs should be tied to a timeline.

Howard Dean, Democratic National Committee chairman, has endorsed Korb's paper and begun mentioning it in meetings with local Democratic groups."

source: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/4/101339/395

"He blended strong criticism of the president for going to war under false pretenses with a more measured endorsement of a plan promoted by the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank, which would redeploy about 80,000 U.S. troops from Iraq in 2006 and the remainder by the end of 2007."

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

61. A misrepresentation. Very few direct quotes. Nice try, though.

I pulled all the quotes from your links. I'm still not sure about your reason for posting snippets, vs. the context.

Edited to add: no quote about keeping troops in Iraq until 2007.

''We're not going to cut and run -- that's just Republican propaganda," Dean said in a speech Feb. 10 in Boston. ''But we are going to redeploy our troops so they don't have targets on their backs, and they're not breaking down doors and putting themselves in the line of fire all the time. . . . It's a sensible plan. It's a thoughtful plan. I think Democrats can coalesce around it."

Reed, an Army veteran and former paratrooper who has been charged with developing a party strategy on the war, said the plan is attractive to many Democrats because it rejects what he calls the ''false dichotomy" suggested by President Bush: that the only options in Iraq are ''stay the course" or ''cut and run."

''It's important to note that it's not withdrawal -- it's redeployment," Reed said. ''We need to pursue a strategy that is going to accomplish the reasonable objectives, and allow us to have strategic flexibility. Not only is it a message, but it's a method to improve the security there and around the globe."

No direct quotes in this article, only an MSM (divide and conquer) summary.

Dean warmly praised Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) for "standing up and telling the truth" about Bush's policies in Iraq, and suggested that the Pennsylvanian had offered a vision around which Democrats could rally.

And, from your dailykos link, this..

The plan for withdrawal from Iraq put forward by Dean should be embraced, and Congressman Murtha's proposals should be meshed with this.

MKJ

[madfloridian]

62. Not only that....Korb's plan would get guard and reserves home now.

Which is a very important issue.

[welshTerrier2]

64. link? n/t

[madfloridian]

65. Here is a quote and the link.

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AF

(SAN ANTONIO) -- "Saying the "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean predicted today that the Democratic Party will come together on a proposal to withdraw National Guard and Reserve troops immediately, and all US forces within two years."

(He never says nor does the plan that they must stay two years...and I am sure the plan is changing as the civil war breaks out.)

"Dean says the Democrat position on the war is 'coalescing,' and is likely to include several proposals.

"I think we need a strategic redeployment over a period of two years," Dean said. "Bring the 80,000 National Guard and Reserve troops home immediately. They don't belong in a conflict like this anyway. We ought to have a redeployment to Afghanistan of 20,000 troops, we don't have enough troops to do the job there and its a place where we are welcome. And we need a force in the Middle East, not in Iraq but in a friendly neighboring country to fight (terrorist leader Musab) Zarqawi, who came to Iraq after this invasion. We've got to get the target off the backs of American troops."

"Dean didn't specify which country the US forces would deploy to, but he said he would like to see the entire process completed within two years. He said the Democrat proposal is not a 'withdrawal,' but rather a 'strategic redeployment' of U.S. forces."

It is a fair plan. It is gradually being worked on and modified by the Democrats.

[welshTerrier2]

70. "he would like to see the entire process completed within two years"

thanks for posting Dean's exact statements on the war ...

well, there you have it ... Dean also said, per the above link: "I think we need a strategic redeployment over a period of two years."

Dr. Dean would like to see the redeployment completed within two years ... getting the Guard and Reserves out now is great; keeping troops there through the end of 2007 is insane ...

so, i'll repeat the question i raised earlier: do you support Dean's call for two more years of US military presence in Iraq?

i do NOT ...

[madfloridian]

71. You are not required to agree.

And he and Korb did not say they had to stay two years...just giving a deadline.

[welshTerrier2]

75. i haven't said that Dean said they "had" to stay two years ...

i think my posts in this thread have fairly disclosed Dean's position that essentially endorses the Korb plan and calls for a continued US military presence in Iraq through 2007 ...

why do you consider this a "decent" plan? i think it's disgraceful ...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

77. I used the links in your post. n/t

MKJ

[welshTerrier2]

63. you haven't answered the question i raised

i'm sure somewhere on the internet, we can find Dean's speech that all the articles referenced ... Dean is clearly endorsing the "Korb plan" that calls for withdrawal of some troops this year and most of the rest by the end of 2007 ...

the question i asked is whether you support this?

if you think the facts of exactly what he said are still in dispute, that's fine ... i'm sure more support to document his position can be found ...

[madfloridian]

66. I posted it for you.

It was a radio interview in San Antonio when he said a lot of this. I posted it for you.

[welshTerrier2]

67. well, thanks

ah, i see it upthread ...

[madfloridian]

68. just above your head where I said here is your link and a quote

.

[madfloridian]

69. And the audio and video are still up and available.

In fact since you said Howard Dean did not speak for you, I was hoping you would listen and read the partial transcript. It is really a decent plan.

[welshTerrier2]

73. two points ...

i will definitely listen to and read the partial transcript you provided (in the morning) ...

the only "decent plan" is for the US to immediately withdraw from a country we have destroyed and will continue to destroy ...

if my understanding of Dean's position is correct and he really thinks we should withdraw over the next two years, it is inconceivable that anyone would call this plan acceptable ...

is that not exactly what Dean is calling for? to remain in Iraq even one more day implies that we are creating more positives than negatives by remaining ... i think the motives for US presence in Iraq are evil ... i think the US has no clue how to address the insurgency and even less clue how to address the fractionalized Iraqi population ... every day we remain means more death, destruction and despair ...

calling for a withdrawal over two years instead of two days does not speak for me ... what is it you like about Dean's ideas? i'm always happy to "hear it from the horse's mouth" so i will be happy to hear exactly what Dean had to say about Iraq by following up on the link you provided ... if he's talking a two year phased withdrawal, expect some very harsh criticism from me ...

i'll get back to you in the morning ...

[madfloridian]

74. It is not just him, that is the plan.

Don't worry, I really don't expect you to agree. I am very fearful now on any pulling out or any remaining. Since that was sad in Dec. things have deteriorated badly.

It is almost like Saigon...getting out intact and under fire. I am afraid for our troops.

[welshTerrier2]

76. well, that's fine ...

if Dean changes his position and calls for immediate withdrawal because of a changing situation, he'll have my full support ...

btw, i know many have similar fears about getting the troops out safely ... i think the situation is very different from Vietnam however ... the "insurgency" is not able to drive back US troops the way the Viet Cong did ... the US has overwhelming military superiority ... the fact that we can't stop the insurgency does not mean that the insurgency has been able to gain ground against American forces ... i'm no military expert but i don't see the "final days" the same way we saw Vietnam end ...

[mandyky]

57. Me too

Once I heard his DNC winter meeting speech, I knew he was THE man. Unfortunately, that did not happen, but he still is the wisest and most honest politician I have seen in a long while.

[FreedomAngel82]

72. While I'm a true Kerrycrat I do like Dean as the DNC Chairman

I think that's the perfect job for him. I'm not a fan of him for president or anything like that but I think he's doing a fine job as chairman. I love how he handles the press and does interviews and he's gotten a lot better over the past few months. I really like how he energizes everyone too. So keep up the good work Dean!