Saying that Dems are linked to Abramoff is illogical

[rpgamerd00d]

Imagine if I gave a contribution to John Kerry in 2004 (and I did), and then Bush tricked me into giving his campaign money by lying and telling me I had to pay some tax or some other lie to get my money. Then, claim that Kerry is "linked" to Bush's illegal act because I was a victim of Bush and I donated to Kerry.

Moronic. Utterly moronic.

No Dems are linked to Abramoff, they are linked to the indian tribes Abramoff SCAMMED.

The media are total idiots.

[MADem]

1. Yep, don't let anyone get away with that nonsense

All you have to do is look at Jackie A's personal political contributions, posted elsewhere on this board--they tell the tale.

[Atman]

2. You must understand the underlying justification for republicans

"He did it first" is always an acceptable excuse for any wrongdoing.

If "He did it first" doesn't quite fit, substitute "Everybody does it."

They rationalize all their illegalities this way. It's in their genetic makeup. They cannot do the right thing because it is simply the right thing. They have to be threatened by a floating ghost in the sky, or some such nonsense. But actually playing by the rules is for suckers.

[AllegroRondo]

3. The Republican Rationalization Chart

step 1 - We didnt do anything wrong

step 2 - OK, we did do something wrong, but Dems did it too

step 3 - OK, Dems didnt do it, but they knew about it and should have stopped it

step 4 - OK, Dems didnt know about it, but they have done things that are just as bad

step 5 - CLINTON!

[Atman]

4. Excellent!

I love it, and am gonna use it! Thanks.

[InsultComicDog]

5. Ha!

That's exactly right!

[sduncang]

6. Oh, they use their usual tactics....

to discredit the "left" and the media. I'm sure Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity have received their emails on the spin, so I would expect them to either not mention this at all (focus on the War in Iraq); or, if the do, drag up crap about the Clintons and focus on the Democrats involved in this.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. So, why did the politicians take the money from the tribes?

I can see little difference in the corruption no matter who's fingrprints are on the bribes...er..donations.

[Beetwasher]

8. So, All Political Donations Are Bribes?

Is that what you're saying? Then if you gave money to Kerry, you're guilty too. :eyes:

Indian tribes have been giving money to Dems forever. Dems like Reid REPRESENT the Indian tribes in their states. There's nothing illegal about the tribes making campaign donations to anyone. What's illegal is the Quid pro Quo's that Abramoff arranged, and that only happened w/ Repubs. Period. End of story.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. "legality" is determined by the folks pocketing the money,

Why are the Indian Tribes giving money to the Dems "forever". Out of the goodness of their hearts, or because they expect something in return? Why does anyone give money to politicians? They expect "quid pro quo".

We need to get the money out of politics completely.

[Beetwasher]

11. They Are Called CONSTITUENTS

That's why. In your world, every political donation is a bribe and that's just silly. Lumping the Dems in w/ the dirty Repubs because they got donations from some of Abramoff's clients is the height of dishonesty. There's nothing illegal about accepting political donations. You're carrying water for the Repubs.

The ONLY people saying Dems are involved are Repub mouthpieces and propogandists. You'll notice not a single Dem has been implicated in any way by the people that count; the prosecutors. Only Repubs are implicated.

Keep carrying water though and spreading the bullshit propoganda.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Oh, right! Those Indians were giving millions of bucks to do what???

Like they didn't have better things to do with their money? I'm not "carrying water" for anyone. I just don't like dirty politics run by those with the most cash to give to dirty (but "legal") politicians.

The ONLY people defending a corrupt political system bought and paid for by "contributions" are those willing to let the government "of the people, by the people, for the people" continue to be corrupt.

Your loyalty to politicians is touching, however.

[Beetwasher]

18. Millions? Where? Why Do You Insist On Spreading Bullshit Propoganda?

Put up or shut up. Where's YOUR evidence ANY Dem did ANYTHING illegal? You ain't got none. Put up or shut up, Chester.

You continuing to spread lies and disinformation is NOT touching. It's pathetic.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. What lies? Even Reid admits to taking dough from the Indians.

It's news to you that politicians take "contributions" amounting to millions from "donors" with deep pockets? What world do you live in?

As for "legality"..the "war" in Iraq is "legal". Corporations getting massive tax breaks is "legal". Retired generals and admirals and politicians going to work for the "defense" industry is "legal". Hell, lobbying is "legal". And, may I ask, are those things "legal"? Because the guys who profit from them are the ones who took the "legal" donatations are the ones who made them "legal".

The whole system is corrupt and needs to be changed. Abramoff was just an egregious token of the corruption that makes this country an oligarchy rather than a democracy.

[Beetwasher]

20. Backpedalling Noted

Money in politics in general is a whole other issue. This is about CRIMES commited by Republicans. Crimes the Dems are NOT guilty of, and yet you keep insisting they are as guilty as the Repubs. They are not and it's bullshit and you've been called on it. If you want to keep spreading bullshit, fine, but don't try to backpeddle out of what you said and change the subject. It won't fly w/ me.

"I can see little difference in the corruption no matter who's fingrprints are on the bribes...er..donations."

If you see little different, it's because you've been blinded by bullshit Repub propoganda that you continue to peddle. There's a BIG difference. What the Repubs did is ILLEGAL. What the Dems did is not. End of story. If you've got evidence that shows otherwise, put up or shut up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Speaking of bullshit and backpedalling...

Suddenly you shy away from the real problem and rely on legalisms. Abramoff didn't "directly" give money to Dems, his surrogates did, so that's OK.

You've been blinded by the corporate state that runs this government or are willfully naive.

As to shutting up, don't hold your breath.

[Beetwasher]

24. Uhh, Read The Original Post, Einstein

This thread is about people like YOU who are conflating the CRIMES of the Repubs w/ legal political contributions that Dems received, NOT about money in politics in general. Learn how to comprehend what you read.

I'm not shying away from anything, genius, I'm discussing the topic of this thread.

[rpgamerd00d]

25. You are incorrect.

Re-read my original post.

No surrogates of Abramoff gave money to a Dem.

The VICTIMS of Abramoffs scam gave money to Dems.

Get a clue.

[Zynx]

10. All that matters is who is indicted.

The rest is speculation.

[warrens]

12. This is nothing new

A war hero was a coward, while a draft dodger was a hero

Democrats started the Iraq War, not Republicans

Democrats screwed up Katrina, not a Republican president too busy raising millions of dollars to pay attention

Democrats were behind the prescription benefit boondoggle, even if not one of them voted for it

Ken Lay contributed to Democrats, not Republicans

Black is white, war is peace, up is down.

[stewert]

13. Almost True........

No Democrats got money directly from Abramoff, but a few are linked to Abramoff and Abramoff-Related money.

-------

Three Democrats got Abramoff-Related money, but it did not come from Abramoff directly.

1) Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND)

DORGAN RECEIVED NEARLY $95,000 FROM ABRAMOFF’S CLIENTS: “In all, Dorgan got nearly $95,000 in Abramoff-related money between 2001 and 2004.” In Dec. 2005, Dorgan announced he will return $67,000 received from Abramoff’s tribal clients.

SAGINAW FUNDING — BURNS AND DORGAN WROTE LETTER ON BEHALF OF ABRAMOFF CLIENTS: “Senator Conrad Burns, a Montana Republican , helped win a $3 million government award for the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe of Michigan to build a school.” The federal funds were intended for “impoverished Indian tribal schools” and in 2003, the Interior Department ruled the Saginaw tribe, an Abramoff client, too rich to participate.

On February 11, 2002, Burns and Dorgan sent a letter to the Interior Department benefiting the Saginaws. “Nine days later, Dorgan’s campaign got $2,000 from the Choctaw and by late spring Dorgan’s political action committee had received $17,000 more from three other Abramoff tribes and his firm.” But Dorgan had also initially expressed support for the program in “six months earlier” than the February letter.

2) Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA)

HARKIN RECEIVED $22,000 FROM ABRAMOFF’S PARTNERS AND CLIENTS: Harkin received $22,000 in 2003 and 2004 from Abramoff’s partners and his clients.

GIFTS — HARKIN USED ABRAMOFF SKYBOX: “Harkin twice used Abramoff’s skybox for fundraisers — once in 2002 and again in 2003 — without reimbursing.” Harkin reimbursed Abramoff’s clients in fall 2005.

3) Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV)

REID RECEIVED $66,000 FROM ABRAMOFF’S CLIENTS: “Reid ultimately received more than $66,000 in Abramoff-related donations from 2001 to 2004.”

COUSHATTA CAMPAIGN — ENSIGN AND REID LOBBIED ON BEHALF OF ABRAMOFF CLIENT: One of Abramoff’s tribal clients, the Coushattas, “opposed a plan by the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians to open a casino at a non-reservation site, expected at the time to be outside Shreveport, La., not far from a casino owned by the Coushattas.”

Ensign and Reid sent a letter to Norton on behalf of the Coushatta tribe on March 5, 2002. “The next day, the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana issued a $5,000 check to Reid’s tax-exempt political group, the Searchlight Leadership Fund. A second Abramoff tribe also sent $5,000 to Reid’s group.”

http://www.thinkprogress.org/abramoff

[rpgamerd00d]

14. Um....

Tribe donates to 3 Dems.
Tribe gets DUPED by Abramoff and gives him money.
Democrats are painted as "tied" to Abramoff thru tribe.

This is moronic.
The guilty party is Abramoff, and he STOLE from the Tribe. You can't claim the Dems are "linked" simply because those VICTIMS (the tribe) of Abramoff gave them money.
Say it with me: STOO - PID.

[stewert]

26. Ummmmmmmm........

Say it with me: STOO - PID.

Thinkprogress says 3 Democrats are linked to Abramoff with Abramoff-related money, I never said it, I just reported it.

So don't call me stoopid, stupid.

Here are my personal opinions:

Dorgan wrote a letter on behalf of Abramoff clients, that does not link him to Abramoff, stupid. It links him to Abramoffs clients, the indian tribes, I would bet he did not even know they were clients of Abramoff, and he supported the issue before he got their money, so he is in the clear in my book, stupid.

Harkin may be a different story, if what thinkprogress reports is true then he is linked to Abramoff. If he used his skybox 2 times for fundraisers in 2002 and 2003 without reimbursments then he is clearly linked to Abramoff or his clients. my question is was it Abramoffs personal skybox or one of his clients skybox, and did Harkin know it was his skybox or his clients skybox, but until we have all the details I do not have an opinion on Harkin, stupid.

Reid got money from indian tribes, and I do not think he knew they were clients of Abramoff, so I think Reid is in the clear too, stupid.

I would bet none of these Democrats knew that money came from Abramoffs clients.

Note to DU.com moderators, before you delete my posting notice that rpgamer00d called me stupid before I attacked his punk ass.

[rpgamerd00d]

27. Sorry, I wasnt calling you stupid, I was calling the link stupid

I apolgize for the miscommunication.

Also, the skybox is not owned by Abramoff. Saw this on CSPAN last night. Its a clients box, not sure whose.

[txindy]

16. Saying that Iraq is tied to 9/11 is illogical, too.

Yet they continue to make that nonsensical claim and the SCLM never challenges them on it.

[Catherine Vincent]

17. Yes, that is correct.

From now on, everytime I type Jack Abramoff, I include REPUBLICAN just for distinction.

[leftofthedial]

21. what does logic

or its cousin, the truth, have to do with anything?

politics is corporate PR. they'll tell us whatever it is necessary for us to know.

why do you hate America?

[chat_noir]

22. CREW: Jack Abramoff and his Web of Corruption

http://www.citizensforethics.org/activities/campaign.php?view=62

[rpgamerd00d]

28. Nice chart

Even Republicans can understand that!
:D

[Nikki Stone 1]

29. kick

:kick: