Potentially good Fitzgerald/Plame news

[BR_Parkway]

http://www.rockrivertimes.com/index.pl?cmd=viewstory&cat=2&id=12390

More than two dozen e-mails related to CIA agent Valerie Plame and her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, are missing, according to investigative reporter Jason Leopold. The messages were sent to several senior members of the George W. Bush administration between May 2003 and July 2003.

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald suspects these messages may have been destroyed.

In the most recent development, Vice President Richard Cheney has been implicated in the case. A formerly secret legal opinion, disclosed in court proceedings against Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Cheney’s former chief of staff, stated that Cheney told Libby about the identity of Valerie Plame more than a month before it was revealed by right-wing columnist Robert Novak.

Knowledgeable sources close to the investigation said the e-mails were sent by Libby, Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove, then Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, former CIA official Frederick Fleitz, former aide to Vice President Dick Cheney, John Hannah, former Cheney National Security assistant David Wurmser, former Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs John Bolton and White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card.

<snip>

State Department officials have said the administration had strong motives for disclosing Valerie Plame’s identity as a covert CIA officer. They said questions they were asked about the Niger documents suggested to them that Fitzgerald was compiling a timeline.

Leopold said the officials believe Fitzgerald wants to show the grand jury how some members of the Bush administration may have conspired to retaliate against Wilson for his outspoken criticism of their warped intelligence reports.

These officials further said Fitzgerald’s interest is not in the validity of the war, but he is trying to determine if Wilson’s public comments about the intelligence may have triggered the leak by members of a nearly unknown committee called the White House Iraq Group, in the Pentagon, to reveal Plame’s name and CIA status to reporters.

Go read the whole article, it'll give you a break from all the phony outrage over the funeral.
And I say potentially good news because I don't know anything about the source of the article, rockyrivertimes.com, anyone ever run into them? I think the message is right, just not sure how much is eagerness to see things a certain way.

[robertpaulsen]

1. So this is why Comey gave Fitz plenary power.

From the OP link:

Fitzgerald’s staff, after combing through thousands of documents obtained in the investigation to date, was unable to locate the messages described. The Special Prosecutor became suspicious about possible evidence destruction only a few weeks after he took charge of the investigation early in 2004. By that time, sources said, he already believed Rove and Libby were impeding his investigation.

Fitzgerald received a tip in the early stages of the investigation that Karl Rove might have withheld or destroyed an e-mail that would have implicated him in the Plame leak. Sources said in January 2004, Fitzgerald sent a letter to his boss, then acting Attorney General James Comey, asking for confirmation that he had the authority to investigate and prosecute individuals for additional crimes, such as obstruction of justice, perjury and destroying evidence. Up to that point, the probe had been closely focused on a little-known federal law making it a felony for any government official to knowingly reveal the identity of an undercover CIA officer.

Comey confirmed Fitzgerald’s authority in February 2004, saying he had the power to prosecute “perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses.”



So he's been on to the missing e-mails since the beginning!

[stop the bleeding]

24. RP thanks for the heads up - quick question was the Libby indictment

sealed?

Sources told Leopold that the Special Prosecutor learned of the missing e-mails during grand jury testimony by key figures in the case. Some of them are cooperating with Fitzgerald to avoid being indicted for their own parts in the leak of Plame’s identity.

~snip~

Current and former White House officials, who are cooperating in the probe, told the grand jury they communicated verbally and by e-mail with Libby, Rove and other senior officials about Wilson’s comments to the press and how the White House should respond to media questions about the matter.


Fitzgerald’s staff, after combing through thousands of documents obtained in the investigation to date, was unable to locate the messages described. -- Describe by who? - Ari?-former WH official, Who are the current ones cooperating to avoid being indicted????The Special Prosecutor became suspicious about possible evidence destruction only a few weeks after he took charge of the investigation early in 2004. By that time, sources said, he already believed Rove and Libby were impeding his investigation.

Could Rove be under a sealed indictment I wonder - most tantalizing indeed???:popcorn:

[H2O Man]

37. The Libby indictments ....

Clearly the 5 counts that are public are not sealed. Could there be more? Here's a clue for our Plame scandal friends on DU from an old man on a park bench: think back to the charges that Walsh pressed against Weinberger. Specifically, tell the Water Man how Cap's personal notes came into play? Next, apply this to the missing e-mails. (The "source"? Looks like someone from State, does it not? Ha!)

[stop the bleeding]

39. I have been thinking State as well especially with all of the news related

between this and the State, I have put up several posts with the language that the State officials/sources have been using in Leopold's articles you know they feel pretty burned by this whole Iraq WMD thing.

I appreciate your take on this, also when I asked about the Libby indictment I was asking in the context that before the indictment was made public, was it sealed??

If it was then Rove could have a sealed one as well or he could be(slight chance) one the current officials highlighted in my post along with Ari the former official that has been helping to keep from being indicted just a wild thought.

post#34 talks about this as well

[H2O Man]

41. The Libby indictments .....

If you think back, the media covered the grand jury going to have the judge approve the indictments the day they were announced. A few people on DU spoke about mysterious sealed indictments. Keep in mind that Fitzgerald has been meeting with a new grand jury, and bargaining with Rove's attorney. Thus, we can be sure there are no sealed indictments involving Rove. And there is no evidence that any other sealed indictments exist in this case.

[stop the bleeding]

43. thank you for keeping me on track - I always appreciate your thoughts

H2Oman.

Peace!

[Emit]

47. Question regarding sealed indictments

H2O Man, so your take on it is that since a new grand jury was gathered, then that means there were likely no sealed indictments?

I know absolutely nothing about this legal stuff--being in a totally different type of work, but, I do recall following several blogs last year speculating of sealed indictments, and what that would mean. However, some of these contradict what you explain above.

For example, here's one from David Corn from last October:

Two words we should think about: sealed indictments." That was said to me by a trustworthy Washington reporter who has been covering the Plame/CIA leak case. He wasn't making a prediction; he was raising a possibility. It could be that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald might choose to file sealed indictments before the grand jury expires at the end of next week. That would mean that the names of the indicted would be unknown to the public--unless the information leaked.

Why would Fitzgerald do this? Perhaps he has not finished investigating. It could be that recent developments--Judy Miller's testimony, Karl Rove's return to the grand jury, the Daily News story that indicates Rove and George W. Bush discussed the leak (and Rove's involvement in the matter) two years ago--have provided him additional leads to chase down. (The Daily News story--see the items below--does raise important questions.) In such a case, Fitzgerald might want to bank several indictments, impanel a new grand jury, and keep digging. This is--needless to say--speculation. But anyone waiting anxiously for indictments should keep this scenario in mind.
~snip~

http://www.davidcorn.com/archives/2005/10/sealed_indictme.php


And here's another bit regarding sealed indictments from a diary at KOS around that same time:

former prosecutor - sealed indictments (4.00 / 4)

Are not revealed to the target, the evidence is not revealed (although both the names and the broad evidence usually comes out).

The purpose is to continue the investigation while "banking" indictments to crimes you already know were committed. It means there will be a new GJ and more investigation.

Indictments are sealed for a set period (60 days I think) but the seals are extended as a matter of course until the total investigation is over. Fitzmas may be waaaaaaay off now, maybe not even before the 06 elections. So, we should hope, that if they are sealed, the info leaks or Fitz cleans it all up by the summer.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/10/25/165411/69/157#157


What's your opinion on these above-noted explanations, H2O Man? Do you think they might hold any water (no pun intended), or do we know for sure that, because as you noted -- a new grand jury was formed -- then the possibility that there was a sealed indictment for Rove, for example, is/was unlikely?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide -- I much appreciate your opinion and insight. Emit

[stop the bleeding]

48. Thanks Emit for the research and I like you await H2Oman's take on this

Before I was fine but now you have thrown a new mokey wrench in the thought process

[H2O Man]

49. David Corn is a

smart man. Not everyone likes him, and a few people who I respect from DU have suggested he has ties to the Agency. I don't know about that. But, he writes that someone following the investigation was raising a possibility, not making a prediction. That's a fair thing to do -- to raise a possibility.

I haven't read all the responses below, but it looks like someone may have brought up names like Wurmser and Hadley. These would, in my opinion, be far more likely to be the subject of sealed indictments -- if there are any -- than Rove. Karl's attorney has been dealing with Fitzgerald in the past two months outside the court room where the grand jury meets. I know Hadley sang, and I think that RS has suggested Wurmser has .... and they clearly have had a good source.

Fitzgerald has far more evidence than the corporate media or general public suspect. I think things are going to shift into a higher gear soon. Either Rove will plea, or he will be charged. When that issue is decided, look for Libby's team to re-evaluate their options.

Again, look at what charges Cap W. faced.

Things are good.

[Emit]

52. Thanks, H2O Man, for your comments. Much appreciated. n/t

[Justice Is Comin]

53. There was that very unusual

envelope attached to the indictment handed up. That clearly has connotation that something has not been revealed.

Long practicing attorneys, even justice department attorneys had not seen anything like that attached to an indictment.

[Me.]

42. Hannah & Wurmser Come Into Play

Here's the thing that I don't understand. How is it that Hannah is still part of this admin? Don't they know he's been spouting off? I know they ignore anything they don't want to know but why are they snuggling a potential viper at their bosoms? Trying to smother him? And how much do you think KKK has given up?

[stop the bleeding]

44. these thoughts crossed my mind as well - anyone have any thoughts

on this?

[H2O Man]

50. I'll bet that

we are going to find out more pretty soon. The article on TruthOut this afternoon seems to point out that VP Cheney was involved early on. Gosh, I hope he doesn't head to Tora Bora.

[stop the bleeding]

51. What article on TO? I went here and saw only "old" news - are you

talking about this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=370469&mesg_id=370469

[Kagemusha]

2. Doesn't matter, I've seen very similar reports from other places.

It's close enough to what is known from public documents that at worst we could call this very reasonable guesswork. Destroying e-mail is a bad thing. OTOH, kinda kills a conspiracy charge, doesn't it.

[BR_Parkway]

4. I thought it reinforced a conspiracy charge

[Kagemusha]

9. It eliminates a lot of evidence for such a charge.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in a court of law.

Jerks.

[hang a left]

18. How did he know about the emails in the first place if they were

destroyed? I would go out on a limb and say he has the emails.

[BR_Parkway]

23. Bingo!

[leveymg]

27. You're quoting Cheney.

Actually, it's Obstruction of Justice. It's also good supporting evidence for a conspiracy charge, and it probably won't work unless the hard-drives and all the backup tapes have been destroyed.

It's about the stupidest thing that this gang of dipshits could have done. Can you imagine how stupid they were, to begin with, to put ANYTHING incriminating into e-mails? They could have borrowed some one-time pads from the CIA, but no, the CIA isn't good enough for them.

So, they e-mailed each other about destroying Wilson and Plame. Unfricking believable.

[Steve A Play]

11. A 'conspiracy' by definition is two or more people working together

to commit a crime. If two parties (the sender and the receiver) both destroyed an incriminating e-mail in order to hinder an investigation, by definition, they 'conspired' to do so. It opens them up to a conspiracy charge if anything. :)

Steven P. :kick:

[rsmith6621]

3. My Favorite Line....

"In the most recent development, Vice President Richard Cheney has been implicated in the case. A formerly secret legal opinion, disclosed in court proceedings against Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Cheney’s former chief of staff, stated that Cheney told Libby about the identity of Valerie Plame more than a month before it was revealed by right-wing columnist Robert Novak."

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Please, please, please let it be true

[laheina]

13. Please, please, please let something come of it. nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. That too

[robertpaulsen]

7. BINGO! Fitz has Cheney in the crosshairs.

Leopold reported Fitzgerald also believes some e-mails sent to Vice-President Cheney by Libby and some senior officials of the CIA, as well as the replies, were not turned over to his staff.

Sources told Leopold that the Special Prosecutor learned of the missing e-mails during grand jury testimony by key figures in the case. Some of them are cooperating with Fitzgerald to avoid being indicted for their own parts in the leak of Plame’s identity.



The countdown to Cheney's next "heart attack" has begun!

[calimary]

15. Not possible. If he has no heart to begin with, how could he possibly

have a heart attack?

[robertpaulsen]

20. LOL! I guess that would be a cybernetic heart.

No wait, that's what Arnold has.

:rofl:

[Disturbed]

8. “perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and

and intimidation of witnesses." Does this not smell of COVER UP?

[Kagemusha]

10. Yeah well that's a slight exaggeration

He was implicated in the original indictment. There just weren't a lot of details. Now there's a little more.

[stop the bleeding]

22. This is a very good line indeed - Thanks BR_Parkway

[wicket]

25. now that would be Fitzmas x10!!!!

:7

[Yoda Yada]

6. So...Rove's "bread-crumb" trail...

...MAY LEAD FITZ to question "members of a nearly unknown committee called the White House Iraq Group" (WHIG)?:woohoo:

This could bring a few more "big fish" into the picture....Hughes...Matalin....Hadley....who else?:popcorn:

[hang a left]

19. Weird, the article says WHIG was in the pentagon

Wasn't WHIG in the White House?

[TahitiNut]

12. "nearly unknown committee called the White House Iraq Group"???

Good grief! Every single member of this committee is CLEARLY implicated in the conspiracy to expose Plame and Brewster, Jennings, & Associates and it's STILL being called "nearly unknown"?? Well, not among the thoussands of DUers (avec moi) who've been indicting these criminals for over two years!!! It was the PRIMARY MISSION of this criminal conspiracy group to perpetrate the FRAUDULENT underpinnings for the invasion and occupation of Iraq and crucify anyone getting in their way!

[H2O Man]

38. Right.

WHIG is known to DUers. But the general public was never supposed to know it exists. And many still do not.

[Straight Shooter]

16. Can you frickin' believe after all this time the leaker has not been ID'd?

I mean of course that's a rhetorical question, but we've got all this evidence mounting up. Way back when, that putz bush said yes, he'll get to the bottom of it, thinking at the time it was a bottomless pit. And now that pit is getting so shallow we can see Rove's pig-snouted reflection clear as a bell, yet bush still refuses to get to the bottom of it and has relegated this scandal to the closet with all his other skeletons rattling in there. Must be a heckuva party going on in that bony closet, even though it's got to be getting crowded.

[radio4progressives]

17. Not only that.. But Rove is Doing Business as Usual totally Free

and behaving without a care in the world. It would not be possible for him to be doing business as usual if he felt his future was threatened at all.

I no longer read this material, because ever since October 28, 2005 I think it was that day of Fitz's press conference, the owner of AAR came on Mike Malloy's show, and spoke with "authority" that it was over. that was the end of anything we're likely ever to see of any real significance come out of that investigation. I immediately doubted the truth in that definitive statement, thinking how in the hell could HE know with that kind of certainty one way or the other? well, he said he had "inside sources" close to the investigation and said it was virtually about over..

[stepnw1f]

21. How Else Would a Sociopath Act?

These people won't stop or slow down... in fact they mean even increase their pace, out of desperation.

It sounds like Fitz is using a large net to maximize his case.

[Me.]

40. Speaking Of Sociopaths

Poster # 37 has a thread about "In Cold Blood", different types of socios, but we can connect the dots.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=368027&mesg_id=368027

[yodermon]

26. My only problem w/ this article:

is that it keeps with the "revenge" motive

Leopold said the officials believe Fitzgerald wants to show the grand jury how some members of the Bush administration may have conspired to retaliate against Wilson for his outspoken criticism of their warped intelligence reports.

...when, in fact, while all of Fitz's early statements do indicate he was persuing a retaliation motive, all his more recent statements (ever since the investigation took an "unanticipated shift" in late 2004) hint that he has STEPPED BACK from the revenge motive and is now leaving the option open. Remember his baseball analogy from this press conference? His whole point was, well we know that the batter was hit by a pitch, but what was in the pitcher's mind when he threw the ball? He says that's what they were trying to figure out. Especially since all the facts in the Libby indictment state that Libby DID, indeed leak Valerie's identity; yet he was NOT charged with the material crime of IIPA or Espionage. Why?

Because Fitz hasn't determined motive yet.

If it was merely for "revenge", as the conventional wisdom still spouts, then Libby shoulda been charged for the actual leak in October.

Something's up.

(shout-out to Citizen Spook for this: http://citizenspook.blogspot.com/2005/11/treasongate-whats-mysteriously-missing.html )

[janx]

28. It's too early to assume anything about what Fitzgerald is doing.

He's not talking, thank God.

[leveymg]

29. "It's always the cover-up, not the crime" that nails them

Of course Fitz stepped back - everytime one of them gets called back for another chat with the Special Counsel, they add more perjury and OOJ counts.

A lot of them have turned, too. So, Fitz has his sources on the inside. Talk about Fear and Loathing. And, then, there's the documentary evidence, such as the PDB that Dubya got on 06/19/2003 about Wilson's trip to Niger, and whatever notes he or his briefer might have scrawled on the margin. See, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/8/123226/9653

[stop the bleeding]

30. leveymg I asked about sealed indictments in post # 24

tell me what you think

[leveymg]

31. I think you're right about the sealed indictment(s)

There's likely one for Rove still sitting, unwrapped, right there under the Fitzmas tree. A living tree - still fresh, and hasn't shed its needles.

I can't imagine how else Rove has escaped indictment at this point, unless he's cooperating in some way.

As for missing e-mails, the forensic guys could detect a gap in the e-mails several ways -- there's a log, there are backup tapes held off-site, and if that failed, they can reconstruct e-mail files (even those that have been overwritten several times) through electronic analysis of the harddrive. My understanding is that you can't ever really erase a computer file short of smashing and incinerating the hard-drive.

[stop the bleeding]

34. not only did you pick up on Rover's Fitzmas Sealed indictment but

you hit on another important part

I can't imagine how else Rove has escaped indictment at this point, unless he's cooperating in some way.


Notice how the first part of my post puts emphasis on this cooperation from past and CURRENT officials.- can you say orval redenbocker


:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[leveymg]

45. I like mine with extra butta, butta I betta not.

Gawd, it's southin cookin show lady, she's rubbin off on me.

Thnaks again!

[cascadiance]

35. Fitz perhaps senses real reason was an impeachable BJ incident!

Brewster Jennings investigation of WMD's incident that is... As many of us have suspected, shutting down the WMD investigations which would reveal far more punishable acts of treason and perhaps murder were what's being covered up!

[Jim__]

32. What bothers me is that if Fitz doesn't have more indictments

before this November; the whole thing is essentially moot.

I don't really care if rove and cheney go to prison in 2010. We absolutely need the dems to win this election in November. If they don't, the repubs will farther lock up the courts. That's game, set and match. Anything else is window dressing.

[cascadiance]

36. The case doesn't have to be tried or completely finished by November...

Just enough "firm" information of indictments and other things has to happen by November to help turn the congress over. If Republicans are seen as "in the way" of this investigation proceeding quickly enough, that will be that much more fuel that Dems should be able to use to take back both house and senate. Then the REAL impeachment can start at the beginning of 2007 when new congress takes session. That is of course if Bush and Cheney don't resign before then to put Hastert in charge. I'm still wondering if that's the "inner plan" for Hastert's lawyer for responding to Vanity Fair allegations to him NOW, as opposed to five months ago or not at all... I'm sure they want Hastert's "baggage" to be "cleared up" by then or have him out on his rear so that someone else "clean" can take over to preserve the Republicans in power of the executive branch and not allow an impeachment in 2007.

[leveymg]

46. Fitz isn't doing this for us, and he has his own timetable.

We'll just have win it on our own, but I think more likely the Repubs will lose it for us, if we don't stop them by playing their game - like the DLC recommends - their way.

But, I'll take it, either way.

[PRETZEL]

33. My take on the article,

Seemed like as much a summary of what has been learned in the last month or so. I really didn't see anything that wasn't published before.

But as for the potential damage, I think there's a great deal of potential damage here. It seems, at least to me, that Fitz doesn't have the e-mails. If he did I would think he'd be obligated to turn them over to Libby's attorneys during the course of discovery. My guess is that Libby's lawyers thought he did have them and has let the cat out of the bag so to speak. Fitz may have heard about them or was actively persuing them, but it now seems to me that Fitz is now sure they exist. And since I would tend to find it likely that these emails would have included others either directly as intended recipients or as cc recipients, since no one seems to have them I would venture to guess that it was a concerted effort by all involved to destroy them. This seems to me to indicate that conspiracy would definately be one avenue where his case has been strengthened.

edited for grammer.