Freepers are not the only snobs in this country.

[Bobbieo]

The DUers who make snide remarks about Wal-Mart and mock those of us who have to shop there can hardly class themselves as indiscriminate liberals. I know all about the evils of Wal-Mart. Several years ago, I was the city chairperson for the movement against turning the local Wal-Mart into a Super Center. We lost the election, big time!

But times have changed and so has my financial situation. I am a retired widow living with two handicapped people on my limited income. I don’t buy clothing there. In fact, I don’t buy clothing any more. Luckily I was able to buy quality clothes for years which I have saved and still can wear. To hell with fashion!!!

Like I stated on a thread a few hours ago –“Food stamps go farther at Wal-Mart”.

[CBGLuthier]

1. Elitism

The left has always had too much of those types for my taste.

Those who haven't had to raise a family or live in the real world. College kids of privelege who decide the world is wrong and they are right but yet they can barely even wipe themselves.

Yeah I am a cynical bastard but life is one long damn hard challenge and that stupidity from the so-called progressives is sickening.

[annabanana]

2. I always got more snide looks and snotty attitude from the

fine Repugs and their "I've got mine, to hell with you" attitude. I found the left to be more generous, more willing to help and far less judgmental.

The right always said "If you're poor, it's your own damn fault, you must be immoral."

[CBGLuthier]

8. and that has what to do with this particular issue

Again, we are talking about those elitist members of the left who look down upon people who have to make hard economic choices.

I am farther left than most but I don't spend my time CONDEMNING others for the choices they have to make.

If you honestly believe that everyone on the left is morally superior to everyone on the right I got some news for you. It isn't true. There are quite a few assholes on both sides of the equation and more than a few so called progressive leftists would turn their back on people in need because they do not agree with some of their choices.

Your over-simplification of political parties and agendas proves my point. Every Republican is not an asshole and every democrat or other leftist are not saints.

In fact, do you not see the irony in declaring the left to be "less judgemental" while you yourself are busy "judging" the right?

[LostinVA]

6. The Left are the main ones who volunteer and run real charitable groups

The "Right" are way more elitist.

And, the slagging of Wal-Mart is NOT elitism for 99% of us -- it's about labor issues, both here and in other countries. Period.

[pampango]

102. I agree with you about Walmart, but all the studies that I have heard

about in the last few years show that self-identified conservatives volunteer more hours to charities than do self-identified liberals. There are obviously exceptions to this on both sides, and we could argue about what "charities" conservatives volunteer for, but I am reluctant to criticize their volunteerism by arguing that they don't do it for "my" organizations.

[heidler1]

3. I've brought up the same issue, With very little response at DU.

If you want to have a firebrand issue pick on Wal-Wart. Those who are proud that they never go there never tire of saying so.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. I'm happy I never go there

I certainly understand that some people MUST, but that shouldn't disqualify me from critiquing Walmart itself, if I think Walmart is generally harmful.

I think too many people on these boards scream "ELITIST!!!!" any time any difference in quality is asserted. If I think a finely crafted German beer is "better than" a Natty Light, I am suddenly an elitist. If I think Italian food from fresh ingredients that is thoughtfully constructed and cooked is better thqan the freeze-dried smack at Olive Garden, I am an "elitist."

Fine, then. I'm an elitist. Some shit is better than other shit. We can make qualitative judgments about the world! Of course, for some, that statement makes me non-progressive, primarily because such people mistake e-quality for a-quality: as if equality in terms of interests and opportunities means that we can't distinguish qualitative difference between fresh hand-crafted pasta and Chef-Boyardee. The conservatives are actually right about people who make such mistakes: they are fools.

[Bobbieo]

9. You think less affluent people can't make distinctions between quality

food and canned garbage like Chef-Boyardee. I pride myself on my cooking skills. Steak is a once a month treat but I can do wonders with a cup of rice, chicken broth, onion, tomato,garlic and a little cilantro. Fresh veggies and avocados are staples at my house.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Show me where I said anything of the kind

And I'll be happy to answer your outrageous accusation.

[heidler1]

13. How do you judge what you never do? I love good food too, but

claiming Wal-Mart goers are people who have no taste in bulk with no current evidence of Wal-Mart food tasting good or bad is being snobbish.

By the way, Wal-Mart sells German beer. Their beer tends to be fresher than most because their turnover is quicker. Then again maybe you prefer aged in the bottle beer.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. I don't shop at Walmart for political reasons

That's different from the general defense of quality. But, as you demonstrate, the two are often conflated.

Walmart can be selling top-notch caviar for pennies and I wouldn't go there, in other words.

[MistressOverdone]

60. I grocery shop at Walmart

and they have it all, from gourmet to junk. For me, it is closer and cheaper.

[hfojvt]

16. Suffer the fools and let them enjoy their salty pasta

sans disparagement.

There is a difference between 'bad' and 'not as good' isn't there? I would say a person becomes an elitist not only when they can tell the difference between quality and mass produced, but when they cannot even tolerate the mass produced or the people who enjoy it. It's a little bit like my realtor said. I did not look at $80,000 or $180,000 houses when I was house hunting. I found the best house I could for under $50,000. "Why look at a Cadillac when you can only afford a Chevy?" People driving Chevys do not need to be scoff at or derided simply because they never get to experience the superior quality of the things they cannot afford.

[LostinVA]

7. I am extremely proud of my stance on labor issues

And, I do understand that some DUers HAVE to go to Wal-Mart for financial reasons. However, most DUers who shop there DON'T have to, and thus shouldn't. ALL this company does is mistreat their employees, union bust, and spit upon the workers of both this ans other countries. In addition, Wal-Mart destroys local business and economies. They suck.

I don't make much money, but I refuse to go there,e specially with a father in textiles.

[Bobbieo]

15. I understand where you are coming from on labor issues.

I fought my fight with Wal-Mart and lost. Now, there are wo supercenters in town! These days, I have to watch every penny so I can pay the bills. BTW, the old, old computer is my only luxury item these days. One TV in the house and no cable.

[LostinVA]

25. Thanks for getting my post wasn't an attack on you

Just a defense of why so many of us are anti-Wal Mart.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

4. Hey, I shop thrift and second hand all the time~

I always get compliments on my outfits, to which I proudly respond, Thanx! I paid only $4.50 for it!! (or some tiny amount, anyway) The looks some people give me gives me chuckles. Twice now, I've found Genuine shearling coats brand new, cost $18 for the ankle length and $20 for the fingertip length one. I love the hunt for the best of deals!
Walmarts got great plants in the spring time, excellent stuff. I go there often in spring to supplement my gardens. The nearest one to me is an hours drive away. :(
Quality Clothes rarely go out of fashion, I bet you're still looking fine!

[sandnsea]

10. Almost never buy new

I'm saving space at the landfill, as well as preventing environmental damage in the production of said crap I didn't need in the first place. I'd call that cancelling out any negative Wal-mart vibes myself.

I have a choice of 3 grocery stores, 2 union, 1 not. I just can't bring myself to go to the non-union store, I just shop sales a little better is all. But that's me and my town is small so travel and whatnot aren't a consideration. I also watched the Sam Walton story the other day and decided he never was a good guy, along with the flex time exploitation, I avoid it if I can. Then again, it's not here so I it's not a conscious choice I have to make.

I went to email you a couple days ago. Goofy me, I grabbed an old email and somehow emailed myself. lol. How are you and your son doing??

[Bobbieo]

18. Sandnsea - He is doing okay now and the main reason I am

shopping at Wal-Mart. The second knee surgery left him with a rod - not a prothesis - so he can't bend his knee which hampers his abilites as a car repair person or carpenter. I am just as happy he is not working - Think you can understand why.

[sandnsea]

29. Excellent!

Well, not that he can't bend his knee, but you know what I mean. I hope he continues to improve and that you've got some peace of mind for a while. :hug:

[porphyrian]

11. Snobbery is not a partisan issue. It's not even a classist issue any more. - n/t

[xchrom]

12. i won't shop at wal-mart.

it's bad for workers and america.

if you have to shop there -- then that's your life.

[hfojvt]

20. I was at Cabellas the other day

looking at their expensive, and perhaps higher quality footwear. I did not find anything American made. Same with the mall shoestore. The local grocery store chain AFAIK has the same low pay, bad benefits jobs as Wal-mart does. Without a Food Co-op in this town of 35,000 there are not alot of alternatives.

[xchrom]

24. wal-mart is one giant corporation that encourages out-sourcing.

i personally think it's a tragedy when a country loses manufacturing like textiles or to use your example shoes.

take textiles for example -- more than just a product -- there is a lot of american history wrapped up in that trade -- it's sad to see our politicians design tax breaks and trade agreements that allow for that.

i'm not taking my dollars to wal-mart to help that along.

[MikeE]

14. No one should mock anyone

Still, as a person who does not shop at WalMart,there are a whole list of reasons why I don't, including the fact that they actully increase poverty by trying to keep from paying people a decent wage, and driving out smaller businesses, not to mention the costs to the environment etc. I too have had to live very frugally, supporting 2 people on less than $1000 a month, with most of that going to rent. Fortunately, I'm no longer in that situation, but I still remember saving the soap scraps in a jar of water, using every part of every veggie or animal I had.

I guess my point is this:
Attacking other DUers as elitist because they are stating what everyday actions that they are taking to help improve things, as well as mocking or attacking others who feel they have no choice is counterproductive. It doesnt help, it makes us republicans. We are all on the same side. Rather than attack each other, we should be coming up with things that each of us in our varied circumstances can do in our daily lives to bring about change. Will everyone be able to stop shopping at Walmart? Doubtful, but we all have things that we can do and we should all be working together.

[heidler1]

128. Well said. IMO Democrats should work for higher wages and

we can be proud that we now control Congress and are working on that very issue by raising the min. wage.

[Nevernever]

17. No one HAS to shop at Wal-Fart.

I have been poor my entire life - and I mean plain and simply, below the poverty line,working class POOR - not destitute or anything like that (but I currently earn a LOT less than your pension - unemployed) - and I have NEVER ONCE in my ENTIRE life shopped at Wal-Fart (actually, that's a lie - I once had a bad tranny leak in a Wal-Fart parking lot - EMERGENCY - nothing else around, so I had to buy tranny fluid there, and made sure that I left a HUGE puddle which certainly must have damaged their asphault). Wal-Fart sells cheap foreign shit from cheap foreign shit countries, period, and I will have no part in supporting them.

If I have to work a little harder or save a little longer, or go without for a bit, I do not mind. I'd never be able to sleep nights if I ever shopped there. I certainly can appreciate your dilemma, however. One tip is to go crazy on coupons whenever you can (I am the Coupon King)- trade them with others wherever possible, and ALWAYS use them - I usually save about $10 per week on a $70.00 grocery bill.

I live in rural Canada and I am extraordinarily lucky in that there are three Home Hardwares, two Canadian Tires and Two Giant Tigers within 15 minutes of me, so I can always find alternatives - often CHEAPER than Wal-Fart. Takes some research, however, let me tell you. My wife thinks I am NUTS because I plan my Saturday grocery shopping on Friday night for about an hour (reading flyers, clipping coupons, etc.) and it takes me two hours to shop for everything we need (I hit a Food Basics, an Independent Grocer, an IGA and a local produce market every Saturday morning). I probably still end up paying more (if you include the gas) than if I shopped at Wal-Fart, but it is a price I am actually HAPPY to pay. I refuse to give those bastards a penny of my hard earned cash, and I am proud to support local businesses.It takes a bit of a committment and an unbending will, however.

I am slightly anal about it. If someone buys me a present and it has a gift receipt from Wal-Fart, I return it - ALWAYS.

All you can do is look for alternatives, I suppose - I wish you all the luck in the world. If you must shop there, you must - I understand, it's pretty hard to make ends meet these days - but actively attempt to minimize what you spend there, if at all possible. Look at the long term - it's more than money you save by simply shopping ANYWHERE else, believe me.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

21. A well put post~&~ your first one too!

Welcome to DU Hey!

[newyawker99]

30. Hi Nevernever!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Redneck Socialist]

120. Bravo and welcome to DU

Excellent post. I'm fortunate enough to be well off enough to have choice (not rich by any measure) but Wal-Mart's "low prices" are, by and large propaganda. You can find deals everywhere if you're willing to look.

[theHandpuppet]

136. Great post -- and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[HughMoran]

19. We can still decry their methods & boycott them

If you cannot participate in the boycott, nobody should blame you. 3 years boycotting and proud of it.

[sam sarrha]

22. i always figured Freepers were just ignorant and some jut stupid, i get my clothes at GoodWill.. and

i have to go to walmart because the only store other than wally world is food lion with $3 a pound apples $4 a pound grapes and every thing else is proportionally priced..

i dont think people are being snobs.. they just dont like the way they treat people.. and their predatory tactics against competitors..and their contagious bottom line distructive echonomics. the boys shamed their father.. and will burn in hell

[LostinVA]

23. Good post

[dysfunctional press]

139. there is no hell for them to burn in.

and they, like all good repugs, KNOW that.

[rhino47]

26. I think saying you HAVE to go to wal-mart is wrong.

I live in rural pa with few stores around.I do not shop at wal mart.Takes planning but I buy things on sale,on the internet and every three months a trip to costco an hour away.I live with a handicapped husband and two kids.I have actually found wal-mart more expensive on average then Giant Eagle (local grocery chain).Aldi,local farmer`s market and produce auction are other ways to shop without spending a lot of money.Good quality clothes can be had at Gabriel Brothers(which carries a lot of made in usa clothes),garage sales or tag sales.Best Buy ,Circuit City and Sears all sell on ebay at greatly reduced costs.If I am an "elitist" because I can not bear to support a company that screws it`s employees to a wall then so be it.

[theHandpuppet]

137. Good on ya, rhino47!

You set an great example for many of us.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

27. When all the DUers that bitch at you for going to WalMart...

QUIT SMOKING, then they can legitimately bitch at you for going to WalMart. The snobs that think that you have the ability to go somewhere else are just that, snobs. We do go elsewhere when we can, but sometimes we don't want to drive all the way across town. Anyone who judges you because you are trying to feed your family and still save some money, then they aren't worth your time, sweetie! AND Any of those people who bitch at you for going to walmart and are smoking, are hypocrites, because republicans own the cigarette companies, and cigarette companies probably don't treat their employees that great either, but they probably have to treat the people who make them well because they are probably union.
Duckie

[SPKrazy]

105. ROFL!

good one duckie

[YellowRubberDuckie]

133. Why Thank you SPK...

It's something that drives me insane here on DU!
Duckie

[LeftyMom]

28. It's elitism to think you can steal from the people who work there.

Why do your food stamps go further there? Because Wal-Mart workers make half as much as workers at unionized grocery chains, because their benefits suck (when you get them at all) and because they work their employees like slaves. Wal-Mart saves you a couple of bucks because they know their workers will be joining you in whipping out thier EBT cards to buy groceries, they are in short a parasite on the state, saving on your grocery bill by driving up all of our taxes.

It's true poverty to steal the livelihood of other working people. I've collected food stamps. I've known poverty. I still shopped at a unionized grocery store that sold healthy food and treated their workers well, and neither they nor my family missed any meals.

[sandnsea]

31. My son is a union grocery checker

Our indexed minimum wage increases always exceed his union wage. You know how much of a raise he gets when he completes his checker training period? A nickel. I remember thinking it was silly when my dad got a nickel raise back in 1967. Yes I believe Wal-mart is responsible for holding wages down for all retail workers, but union workers don't have it that much better anymore. Also, the Kroeger people aren't union at Fred Meyer stores, only the grocery part are union. And, everything is imported so no retail store is innocent in that.

Bashing only Wal-mart is really a bit short-sighted.

[LeftyMom]

36. I can only speak of local conditions

The mere hint of WalMart bring their grocery operations here led to a protracted strike as the grocery chains demanded wage cuts of their unions. I know people raising families on their income from working at local grocery stores (esp Raley's, which is local and union and generally sells good quality food) and I hate to see somebody work for the loss of their ability to feed their families.

[sandnsea]

39. Here

I don't usually quote this web site, but facts are facts. Mind you, I'm not bashing unions at all and I think this is happening because of the pressure from Wal-mart. But people need to know it's bad for everybody and there aren't little pockets of well-paid workers anywhere anymore.

"New workers’ wages and benefits will be driven down to levels similar to those paid by non-union companies such as Wal-Mart. Starting wages will be reduced to $7.55 an hour for most workers, with their top pay never rising above $11.05, a full dollar less than the current rate. The top rate for the highest category of new-hires, meat cutters, will be $16.38, almost $4 less than the wage of current meat cutters."


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/supe-m02.shtml

[Bobbieo]

33. For the time being baby, I get my bills paid!!!!!

[LeftyMom]

37. What about the folks at WalMart? Do you think of your societal responsibility to improve thier

conditions? What about the people losing hours or their jobs and businesses because WalMart uses their size and low wage workers to drive out competiton? Do you ever think of them?

I got mine and fuck you is not a liberal attitude.

[sandnsea]

41. WE know we're ALL fucked

Maybe that's the real difference between low-income and not. We're all getting by together and not feeling too much help from the righteous people taking a stand on single payer health care or the evils of Wal-mart while we can't buy food and medicine. Get a clue.

[LeftyMom]

44. Get a clue?

What makes you think I'm posting from some wildly different tax bracket?

I'm a student, a single mom, I drive a ten year old car and I work part time at a big box store myself. I haven't seen a child support check in six months and I don't expect one anytime soon. If I manage to feed myself and my kid- well, mind you- without going anywhere near Wal-mart, you can too and so can the OP.

WalMart is part of the reason so many people can't buy food and medicine. To put money in their registers is to steal from others in the working classes.

[sandnsea]

69. Well

You're not paying for college on a retail job. Sounds to me like you're in a different situation than the OP and I'll just leave it at that. Wait until you get old.

I don't shop at Wal-mart, see above. I do empathize with people in circumstances where $10 a week, and the gas and ability to get to the store, really matters. Attacking the shopper isn't the solution. Especially when the liberal stockholder won't pull their money and they can afford the hit better than a retired old lady can. The answer is improving conditions in 3rd world countries, but you hardly ever hear anything about that.

[LeftyMom]

72. Why would that stockholder pull thier money when people keep shopping there?

If they do, another will behind them to buy it.

If we want to bring WalMart down and end the WalMart-ification of other retail sectors, we all have to stop shopping there. Period.

[sandnsea]

74. Hypocrite

The people making the most money, doing absolutely nothing, aren't supposed to change their behavior at all. Or the people who work in those stores. Just some poor old lady trying to eat for another month. You ought to be ashamed.

[LeftyMom]

79. No, I expect better from the working classes.

A fair share of the rest got there by having no shame. To expect decency from the wealthy is an exercise in frustration more often than not.

[MonkeyFunk]

122. so what should the OP

do with less of? Food? Medicine? Heat?

It's not enough to just fault her. Tell her what to do without to help ease your sanctimony?

[sandnsea]

73. You get YOUR income off the backs of sweatshop workers

Did you ever think of that? You need to quit your job if you're so goddamned concerned about outsourcing and third world products and slave labor.

[Lars39]

45. Neither is chastising someone on a limited income.

[LeftyMom]

50. Hey, I'm fucking broke. Go sell that white liberal suburbanite guilt shit on somebody who can afford

to buy it. There are options in most communities. People who choose to ignore them deserve to hear about it from the rest of us.

[Lars39]

51. Step back a minute, please.

Unless I have my posters confused, the OP is in her 80s.

[LeftyMom]

54. And?

What, pray tell, does that have to do with where she shops?

[Lars39]

55. You need to reread the OP and show some compassion.

She and her roommates don't have your youth and good health.

[LeftyMom]

59. But she's not saying "help me find alternatives to Wal-Mart" she's defending it.

If she'd asked for ways to get around shopping there, I'd have bent over backwards to see what was in her area to stretch her dollar. Hell, she'd probably be better off, since the quality of the stuff at Wal-Mart is often abysmal.

But she doesn't seem to want a discussion about how to get out from the bind of shopping there, she wants to make excuses for continuing. In a town with other options, there aren't many.

[enigmatic]

65. I'd be happy to help her out anyway I could

No matter how she phrased the OP. 10 times out of 10. That's what compassion is.

[LeftyMom]

70. She doesn't seem to want it.

Apparently this is a love-in for Wal-Mart shoppers and dissenting opinions aren't wanted.

[enigmatic]

77. Do you drive? Take the bus?

If so, do you only buy your gas at Citgo? And if no Citgo is in town, do you walk everywhere or bike around? How about that Big Box store you work at? Where does their money go?

[LeftyMom]

82. I've got an american made, union-built car.

No, there's no CITGO here (I've never seen one actually, must not be a CA thing.) I got my car when I was 25, because transit didn't go all the places I needed to go.

We can keep this up all day. I really do try my best, and I'm not in the habit of asking more from others than I do from myself.

[enigmatic]

83. She's taking care of 2 handicapped people on a limited income

I'd say that more than cancels out shopping at Wal-Mart, but that's me.

[LeftyMom]

86. Ask the people who lost thier jobs to walmart

Using poverty to justify shopping there just shifts the problem from one person to another.

[enigmatic]

88. Forget it

I'm done.

[Change has come]

75. Great response enigmatic

:applause:

[Connonym]

98. Most does not equal all

With all due respect, I don't think this is a situation where there is absolute right or wrong. All corporations are evil to some degree and supporting one over another is just choosing one level of evil over another. We all have to balance our conscience with our survival. We all choose our options within the limitations of our circumstance.

As an extreme example, I think killing is always wrong, always. But if my kid's life depended on killing someone? I think I'd probably kill. If I can buy food AND medicine at Walmart for the same cost as just the medicine at Piggly Wiggly, I'll buy from Walmart. The instinct for civilization and the instinct for survival are sometimes at odds. Every day we all make compromises in what we will do to survive. We all have to draw that line for ourselves but at the same time can't we offer compassion for someone whose circumstance force the line to be somewhere else? Life and death are about the only absolutes, everything else is pretty much a shade of gray open for interpretation.

[Richardo]

123. People who are making personal decisions do not 'deserve' to hear anything from anyone.

Unless it's illegal.

You sound like every anti-abortion, anti-gay group out there.

[MonkeyFunk]

125. But don't you see?

The "new" leftism is about being a busy-body know-it-all who tries to control everybody else's life - to impose THEIR personal morality on ALL issues on the populace.

Oh wait, you're right. That IS just as annoying as when the Right does it.

[LostinVA]

103. The poster is on an extremely limited income

And also has full financial responsibility for a young child.

[philosophie_en_rose]

46. Exactly. Safeway (union) has sales that rival Wal-Mart.

And there are farmers markets, many of which give free vouchers to people in need.

I sympathize with people that believe they truly have to shop there (Wal-mart does crush a lot of better, kinder retailers), but you are completely right about who is paying for the difference in prices.

The workers at Walmart are paid so poorly that they are more likely to shop at Walmart. Their true wages are crappy wal-mart products, created in sweatshops by children. :grr:

[LeftyMom]

53. I keep my eye out for deals.

The local food co-op (a union workplace) has the best deals around on pantry staples (and a 10% low income discount for all food stamp users and others who qualify,) I find amazing deals on canned and boxed foods at Big Lots and dollar stores sometimes, I use coupons when I can find them and go to the farmer's market when it's in season and one of the more expensive regional groceries Raley's (also union) has some pretty great sales on stuff I buy, so I stock up when I see them. Oh, and I manage all of this while buying vegan food, getting organics when possible and working around my food allergies. So if I manage most people can- though I know it's rough in very small towns with few options.

A little farmer's market tip: if you go just before they close up, people will give you deals on produce they don't want to load back onto the truck.

[enigmatic]

61. Do you check the political persuasion of the people who own Big Lots?

How about the Dollar Stores? Do you know where their money goes to? Are they Republicans? How about the people at the Farmer's Markets? Do you ask them if they are Republicans when you go to buy their food? And If not, why?

[LeftyMom]

68. Most of the people at the farmer's markets here can't speak much english, so I doubt they're major

players in the political process.

Mostly I shop at the local food co-op, which donates to food and hunger groups, to environmental causes and to a program that helps small farmers that get organic certification. It doesn't make any political contributions that I know of. It's member-owned, mostly by young tattooed weirdos and old hippies, so I'm guessing not a lot of Republicans have a share.

I also frequently go to Trader Joes, which isn't union but does treat the employees well. (Somebody I know who works for them keeps bugging me to apply, I figure this is a good sign.) I doubt they make many US political contributions at all, it's an Aldi subsidiary and privately owned by a German family.

Most of the rest of my grocery dollar goes to Raley's. It's local and union. They treat their employees well, have good food and good sales. I've never looked into their political contributions, but since it's a local company I'd likely hear if they were problematic.

I stop in at Big Lots and the dollar stores a few times a year when I have extra cash and want to stock up on things. Last time was in the fall, I got some method detergent for $3 and some fantastic foods mixes for $1. I have no idea what their political stance is, but I rather like the idea of taking waste from closed stores, packaging changes and whatnot and recirculating it, it rather intrigues me that we live in a society so wasteful one can build a business model on it. Reducing waste is itself a rather progressive ideal. (As an aside, we had a store here that bought undeliverable items from UPS and FedEx and sold them- an enormous warehouse just from the small fraction of stuff that can't be delivered or returned. Amazing.)

[enigmatic]

76. So you haven't bothered to look into it?

Again, why? If you shop at stores based on their idealogical and political monies and influence, I would think that would be the first thing you would do. And if that co-op did have Republicans working there would you stop going there on Principle? How about the Big Lots Stores? If the General Manager of Big Lots gave money to the California GOP would you stop shopping there?

[LeftyMom]

81. Okay, let's assume that I find out the food co-op is half- a quarter even- as evil as walmart

Do I stop shopping there? Hell yes.

WalMart is the biggest employer in the country. They have enormous influence and no sense of responsibility. Their wages keep wages down, their business model drives outsourcing. They don't deserve the dollars of a single progressive, unless we really want to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[enigmatic]

87. Our dependece on Oil is much more of a problem than Wal-Mart IMO

And it's not even close. The pollution from it is killing the enviroment, is the currency of the rich who own those Wal-Marts and every big-box stores, and is developed off the backs of many, many working class people's sweat. But I don't sneer at people who have to use gas or oil to survive, because I know that it's not only counter-productive, it's worthless. I focus on the owners, not the people.

[slj0101]

109. Political Contributions of Steven S. Fishman, CEO of Big Lots.

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lots , he used to head a company called Pamida.

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=OMAHA&st=NE&last=fishman&first=steven

Uh-oh. Better Pick a new place to shop, or stop with the stone throwing! :evilgrin:

[sandnsea]

78. The Dollar Store??

Are you kidding me? You shop at the dollar store and you've got the NERVE to bitch at someone for shopping at Wal-mart??? Holy toledo.

Do you know where the food would go if Dollar Stores and Grocery Outlet didn't buy it?

The FOOD BANK.

Non-union workers with no benefits selling food to people that the people used to get at the food bank for free.

How progressive.

:eyes:

It's hard to make ends meet and none of us are innocent in the consumer department.

[sandnsea]

71. ALL retail stores are like that

My god, where the hell do people think the shit in Target and Costco come from?? Does anybody ever read the tags? The exact same place by the exact same sweatshop workers. The only benefit some of these other companies have is that they're union, but that isn't as helpful as some people believe either.

Gads. Putting Wal-mart out of business isn't going to do squat to the Chinese import market. The problem is a whole lot bigger than Wal-mart.

[theHandpuppet]

138. Wonderful post, LeftyMom

And you've explained just why I call it "SlaveMart".

[uppityperson]

32. Do the best you can. Help the most you can. eom

[SPKrazy]

38. Oh NO

not a wal mart thread!

just nobody call anyone a D_ _ _ _ _ _ b_ _

[enigmatic]

40. Elitism cuts across political, class, and idealogical lines

Some of the most abrasive, obnoxious boors I've ever met in my life have called themselves "progressive"; Elitism is more a personality flaw then anything else.

The ones who sneer at others going to Wal-Mart when they have little choice aren't worth my time, and they shouldn't be worth yours, either. There isn't a store in North America that doesn't have Republican Money/Republican workers "tainted" in some way, even those Union shops and Mom and Pop grocery stores that are the alternative to Wal-Mart. That's reality.

Do the best you can with the choices you're handed in life, and forget about the elitists/"I'm more ideologically pure than you" crowd. They'll sneer at going to Wal-Mart because of the scum that runs it, but are only too happy to hop into their gas and oil powered cars that are greased w/ Saudi Money that flows through Republican hands without a second thought. Oh well.

You try to live your life the best way you can; that's all you can do.

[Bunny]

63. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Some of the sanctimony on this thread is sickening. :applause:

[fudge stripe cookays]

94. SOME of it?

I'd say ALL of it.

I'm a big Wal-Mart hater, and won't shop there personally, but I'd say the OP is dealing with difficult circumstances. And empathy is a BIG part of being a liberal.

But then again, most of us eat dead cow too, so we couldn't be REAL liberals, now could we? :eyes:

[MistressOverdone]

64. I think it is called liberal chic

similar to movie stars who have private jets and fuss about the environment.

Now, I think it is fine to boycott people and places you disagree with. But to demand that others do the same is presumptuous and immature and holier-than-thou that rivals any homophobic racist on the far right. Same disease, different symptom.

[johnnie]

93. Well said my friend

:thumbsup:

[sundog]

119. good stuff

:thumbsup:

[asthmaticeog]

130. And this, enigmatic, is why you rock.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[TheDebbieDee]

42. It's not that I won't go into Wal-Mart..............

I'd just prefer to spend my money at other places like K-Mart or Target.

But just 3 weeks ago, I bought a vcr/dvd recorder combo unit at Wal-mart for $148. But that was after I checked out similar items at K-Mart and Best Buy and found that they didn't have any models that I wanted.

By no means do I look down on anybody who feels they must shop at Wal-Mart. If I ever lose my health insurance, I'll hold my nose and go there to get my prescrips refilled. I'm all for boycotting Wal-Mart as long as you can afford to.

[philosophie_en_rose]

43. Sigh. Criticizing Wal-Mart is not a personal attack.

If you must shop at Wal-Mart, no one is blaming you, but it is NOT elitist to criticize Wal-Mart's business practices. Or the people that don't see the harm in supporting Wal-Mart practices.

[LostinVA]

104. Thank you -- exactly what I said upthread

THere's more than a little "reverse elitism" on this thread. And, I am NOT talking about the OP, as I also said upthread. Demanding someone check out the,political persuasion of every place they shop is ludicrous. Wal Mart is quite literally evil -- or at least the people who make the HR decisions are. And, they are the US's largest employer, and use that economic clout to -- also literally -- destroy labor, vendors, and small businesses across the USA. They truly suck.

I have little extra money, and I haven't stepped foot into a Wal Mart in a decade. I budget so I don't have to. And, most towns and cities that can support a Wal Mart also have many other CHEAPER alternatives to WM.

[enigmatic]

111. Vilifying those who shop at Wal-Mart because of necessity

while not bothering to check what the political persuasions of the places they themselves DO shop at, while driving around in cars fueled by oil and gas which is owned 95 percent by rich corporate entities that have done more damage to the environment, class structure, and quality of life than 1000 Wal-Marts is The Mother Of All Hypocrisy.

[LostinVA]

115. You TOTALLY are accusing me of something I didn;t say

I said more than once in more than one damned post that I wasn't talking about people who shopped there out of necessity. Right: Yeah, you know I'm right. But hey, don't let facts get in your way. Go play your little games elsewhere. Your defense of Wal Mart in this thread is appalling to me. Because that is what you're doing -- not defending posters.

Hypocrisy my ass. Get over yourself.

[enigmatic]

117. To the person who blocked me

I'm not defending Wal-Mart; I've said downthread I don't shop there and I won't. What I'm defending is the OP who got crapped on by the person you are defending in this thread; that's the the scenario I'm talking about.

I'm sick of people who take the easy targets to here to pontificate/lecture on of how righteous they are, while excusing their own questionable buying habits themselves.

I have compassion for Lefty Mom for being in a bad situation w/ little help from outsides sources, and I would without question help her in everyway I could regardless of what I think of her buying choices, good or bad. THAT'S the Liberal, compassionate way. I would hope she (or anybody else here) would do the same, even if those people hate the choices that the person they are helping made.

That's all I'm saying.

[skygazer]

47. It's not snobbish or elitist to have a social conscience

And my social conscience doesn't get tossed out the window when it becomes inconvenient. I'm well aware of what it's like to be poor - I have been extremely so in my life, to the point of doing things like chopping up furniture to burn in my wood stove. Even so, shopping at places like WalMart has never been something I've chosen to do because I cannot in good conscience reconcile it.

If you want to see that as a snide remark, that's unfortunate. It's not. The truth is, we make choices and the choices we make impact more than ourselves. Of course your food stamps go farther at WalMart - because the company undercuts the prices of local business, driving them out of competition. Because thay don't pay decent wages or offer decent benefits. You may see it as your only option but in reality, by shopping there, you're making it a self-fulfilling prophecy - there will be no other place to shop if no one supports local business.

When hundreds and thousands of people make choices based only on their situation and not on the long-term consequences of their actions, it's short-sighted and selfish.

[Fierce]

52. Well said.

Maybe painful to hear, but well said.

[MistressOverdone]

66. I think this statement

"When hundreds and thousands of people make choices based only on their situation and not on the long-term consequences of their actions, it's short-sighted and selfish."

is well and good when you are in the middle class and a few dollars don't matter much. But when you are already eating catfood and foregoing meds to pay the utilities, it is simply survival to shop where your dollar goes farthest. SURVIVAL is not short-sighted and selfish. Imparting your own morals upon others is short-sighted and selfish, and is done every Sunday in every McChurch in the country.

[skygazer]

142. Yes and no

In the end, you're shooting yourself in your own foot because you're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy - low wages, few choices and little chance of getting ahead.

Obviously you didn't read the post fully - I'm not middle class, I don't have extra dollars and there have been times in my life when I would have been grateful for a can of cat food. Don't assume that just because a person is able to find alternatives, they must have extra resources. That's just not the case. What it does mean in my case is an ability to see beyond the immediate.

The problem arises because thousands of individuals see their case as unique and only see their small contribution to WalMart as ... well, small. But collectively, it's what companies like that bank on. All those individual shoppers who feel they "have" to go there to save a buck create a giant entity that sucks the life out of communities and actually makes their life worse in the end. Only an understanding of the true cost - the cost to everyone and the entire community - makes one realize that we HAVE to seek alternatives. For our own good and betterment. And there are alternatives.

Coupons, USDA food giveaways, food banks, bulk markets, markdown stores that sell dented or otherwise damaged but still usable products for less, the WIC program, etc. Resources are out there and no, it's not easy. But it's important. And the main reason there are people who harp on the subject is they're trying to make people realize how important it is and how it's in their own best interest to find those alternatives.

This is not a matter of imparting morals - do you deny the damage WalMart does to communities and its empoloyees? Do you really feel its selfish to try to make people understand that this sort of company leeches resources from the cities and states in which they operate? In the end, it costs all of us and I don't think there's anything selfish about pointing that out. It's nothing personal towards anyone - its a matter of awareness.

[MistressOverdone]

144. I agree with much of what you said

and I am in the middle class, firmly so. It all comes down to putting others above yourself, or putting an ideal above yourself. Sometimes that is a luxury. Your ideas are all good ones, if a person has the intelligence, health, energy to follow through on them. There are times I put my ideals above myself and my family. But in some things I just won't do it. For example, I won't drive a tiny car with my family in it. I have worked with paramedics long enough to have strong opinions on flimsy cars.

But you know, I am thinking about my community. Really, I can't see that Walmart has had that negative an effect on it. The malls had already killed most ma and pa stores. (clothing, appliances, hardware) The three WMs in town have supported a lot of new shops (boutiques, gift shops, hair places, shoes shops, etc.) in their strip malls. Now, I'm not talking about things like insurance and public assistance, just the dynamics of shopping. I'm not trying to defend the monster particularly, just thinking about it.

Also, I live in the deep south where unions are rare, so that doesn't figure in much in the community. WalMart has a very big community PR/philanthropic presence and I see that they now have a commercial about their health care programs. What is your opinion on that? Is that on the up and up?

[skygazer]

145. I don't know if their health care policy has changed or not

I haven't seen any hard evidence either way of late so I don't know anything for sure. I would tend to be skeptical - even the best employers are being squeezed on health care and have had to funnel more of the costs to their employees so I would find it hard to believe that WalMart is doing anything major in that respect. It's quite easy as we know to put a positive spin on things that aren't really that positive. I feel the same way about their philanthropic efforts - mostly band-aid goodwill measures to make people feel kindly toward them. But I'd feel better about them if they built fewer parks or contributed to fewer charities and simply paid their employees a decent wage, sold quality products and didn't support overseas sweatshops.

Certainly WalMart isn't the only threat to communities, downtowns, local businesses, etc. They are, however, one of the biggest and best-financed threats. And of course, it's very true that there are plenty of people who are unaware of the negative aspects of the company and I don't slam those people for shopping there because they don't know any better.

I try not to slam anyone but I do think that those of us who DO recognize the problems have somewhat of an obligation to try to refrain from supporting them as well as let those who are unaware know what they're supporting. I too come from an area that is pretty much non-union - not here in California but in Vermont where I used to live. I saw the impact that a WalMart had when it was put up across the river in New Hampshire and it was and is rather grim. And in addition to undercutting so many local businesses and putting them under, the jobs created were virtually all at the lowest level - upper management is all from elsewhere. Though the area is non-union, the non WalMart jobs did tend to pay better but the companies couldn't compete with the monster.

I don't mean to go on and on but I do want to say one more thing. My single biggest political concern is poverty. Certainly there are many major issues but I think poverty contributes to every single one of them and is a critical and moral issue in this country. I've been poor. And though poverty is the rationale most often given for shopping at WalMart, it's actually an action that does a great deal to contribute to the problem. I don't like to see poor people fleeced and though they feel they're getting more for their money at WalMart, in many ways and in a collective sense, they're actually getting less.

Peace to you and thanks for putting up with my long-windedness!

[MistressOverdone]

146. I am a pretty careful shopper

and usually only get brand name staples at WM if they are cheaper. Mainly I just don't like the stores, they are too bright and the floors are concrete and they are so huge I feel I've run a marathon after shopping. Because you are always picking up a light bulb on one side of the store when you remember you forgot the sugar.

If you want to see how much big box stores' stuff is really worth, check liquidation.com. Amazing.

I do think you can get most big box items better on ebay as long as you don't get slammed with shipping. Overstock.com ships almost free.

Well, lately I have less and less money anyway, preparing for retirement, trying to figure out how to live on half my income (and grateful for my pension) And if the pension goes, my kids can move over on the couch because I supported them completely for five years and professional education! THEY OWE ME!

[fudge stripe cookays]

135. I agree with your initial statement.

However, not everyone can act in that manner when their needs dictate otherwise.

Ever heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? Look it up. It presents a way to view things that is not so black and white.

[Beacho]

48. You're wasting your money

Especially on durable goods. The quality is extremely low, hence you have to replace them sooner.

AND, you should look more closely at your total bill. You only 'save' money on certain highlighted items but actually spend MORE on other items.

It's a scam

[LostinVA]

106. Also a very good point

It's been shown that WM is NOT cheaper than other stores, including many local businesses.

[and-justice-for-all]

49. You have to do what you have to do....

...But as long as you are aware of what that corperate monster is really about, then I can forgive you.

I dont like giving that place my money, but I cant even afford to shop at the other grocery stores. I do when it comes to needing just a few things, but when it comes to restocking the pantry I have to goto Wal-Mart.

All WM needs to do is change their business practices, be more environmentally sound and stop contributing to child labor in Asia and elsewhere. They just need to be more responsible...

[sakabatou]

56. I don't make such remarks for those buyers

But I will make snide remarks about wal-mart itself.

[enigmatic]

80. Perfectly acceptable

I do, too. I hate Wal-Mart and don't shop there, but I've also got the luxury of not having to shop there. I'm lucky.

[MistressOverdone]

57. Gasp!

You mean you think for yourself about what you need to do in order to live? How could you? Don't you know you have to live by the script in order to be a true blue?

[Connonym]

58. Amen

I was agreeing with you btw, with your post on the other thread. I hope that was clear.

Walmart is just one (albeit one HUGE)example of revolting corporate greed. In America it's nearly impossible to not do business with one or another evil corporation -- your electric company, your internet provider, your gas station, your grocery store, big pharma,etc. You're not solving all of the country's social ills by simply boycotting Walmart. Walmart is only a symptom of the disease that's killing America.

[enigmatic]

62. Yep

That's reality. You do they best you can.

[MistressOverdone]

67. Agreed

I am a small business owner and I am happy for any business I can wrest away from the big boys. But as a business owner I am concerned with the bottom line so I can stay in business and pay my employee. Sometimes I get bet better deals at WalMart than at my wholesaler. But where I really do best is at liquidation.com, which is mostly Target.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. My mother shoplifted at worse places than WalMart.

And, I have no doubt that she would have lifted a few things from WalMart if they had been around when she needed to.

Alas, my mother was a lousy shoplifter, and was frequently caught, and we went hungry. But, she was a helluva good talker and having a skinny and hungry little kid with her most of the time (me) during her criminal career would soften the hearts of the store owners/managers and she avoided arrest except on one memorable occasion when we spent some hours at the station. Sometimes they even let her keep what she stole.

We couldn't afford to be snobs in those days.

There's nothing romantic or elitist about being hungry poor.

[bonito]

85. I hear you

As a volunteer unpaid caregiver I'm the first to by groceries there and don't think twice to hit the thrift shop for clothes for myself.

[bridgit]

89. I agree, people that are not members of unions (cept maybe student unions), nor have done little...

to further the union cause than to watch it wither away themselves have little soapbox on which to stand imo; which is to suggest that the union issue is not the only way walmart lowers prices; often, they simply look a vendor in the eye and tell them straight-up flat-out,

"You want a piece of this freaking huge market share? Then lower your price to below batch. Or you are not in here period"

that is market/merchandising pressure and allot of it, it is the per unit price to a considerable degree that drives prices as well, collective bargaining not to put too fine a point on it, we love it when it is used against the government i.e. lower prescription drugs costs wherever possible, etc; yet no one addresses that component, it will forever come down to unions & labor, and there are more elements in play

[liberaltrucker]

90. I only buy my prescriptions at Wal Mart

And not for financial reasons, since my insurance picks
up the tab after a small co-pay. It's logistical-Wally
has a large enough lot to park my rig.

Other than that, not a penny!

:)

[Clark2008]

91. Um, I was poor - I mean grumbling tummy poor just to keep my

house because the mortgage was cheaper than any rent in my area - and I never shopped at Wal-Mart.

It certainly wasn't because I was an elitist. My God, I sometimes closed off all but one room in the house so I didn't have to heat it all or went without dinner so I could make my son's health insurance premium. Some elitist, I tell ya!

But, I still didn't shop there because they perpetuate the situation I was in. They keep people poor: they don't pay their workers well, they drive Mom & Pop's out of business, they wage and price-gouge and I didn't see that they saved me all that much money - their merchandise was so shabby that I'd just have to repurchase the same product a few months later because their product (and I'm speaking specifically of clothes, shoes, rugs, towels, etc.) would give out in relatively short order.

Also, because they can't bear to pay the taxes in the city here, there are no Wal-Mart's within the city limits and I live in the city. By the time I'd actually drive to one, it was still cheaper for me to get food from the local Kroger down the street.

I can understand someone having to shop there if there are no alternatives in town and it would cost you double to drive to another city to shop at a better store, but it makes no sense to me why anyone thinks they're actually saving money there. When you consider the repurchase rate, you're actually losing money. I've found better products at the Dollar General and Big Lots!

Some people aren't trying to be elitist, BobbieO, when they look down their noses at Wally World. They are actually trying to break a poor cycle.

[treestar]

92. The criticisms of Wal-Mart are about its corporate heads

Quit playing the victim - DUers have sympathy for you in your situation, which you well know.

[enigmatic]

100. Really?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3164898&mesg_id=3165446

[kineneb]

95. I understand

We are living on Hubby's SSDI, and I am a full-time caregiver. I have been known to go to Mall-Wart, because they are the only large retailer in town. The "reasonable" alternative is Kmart which is located 30 miles away. I usually just get craft supplies (yarn, sewing notions) there, because closest craft stores are an hour's drive away.

[Zhade]

96. If you honestly do HAVE to shop there, it's not my place to judge.

Been there before!

[Swamp Rat]

97. Wal-Mart does not sell food... it's Soylent Green!!!

IT'S PEOPLE! :puke:

[enigmatic]

101. I just watched that the other night

Phil Hartman on SNL doing Charlton Heston screaming "Soylent Green is peeeeeeeople...." was going thru my head the entire time..:rofl:

[JCMach1]

99. You are being robbed- Walmart imports the absolute

cheapest Chinese goods and charge outrageous prices in relation to their actual value.

They are criminals and crooks.

[SPKrazy]

107. Right On BobbieO

elitists who can come up with a better solution step forward, otherwise, STFU

Your post is right on!

:hug:

[earth mom]

108. I understand having lived as the working poor for years...

but I do think it is our responsibility and obligation to boycott Walmart whenever possible. As LeftyMom posted so well up thread it has to be a conscious effort no matter how much money we have in our pockets. At the holidays and once since, I shopped Walmart because I couldn't find a couple of things elsewhere that I needed and I tell ya the energy in the store was just awful-very negative. My heart broke for those I saw-and there were more than a few-who were stocking up on Top Ramen during the holidays. None of us should have to live that way, neither employee or customer.

p.s. That was the last time I set foot in Walmart no matter what.

[driver8]

110. Until you all do what I do...

grow your own food, make your own clothes, build your houses from what you can scavenge, don't own a car, ride a bike built from spare parts, use only solar power -- you are all elitists in my book!! :sarcasm:

[enigmatic]

112. You elitist!!!

I go naked and walk everywhere!!!:)

[driver8]

113. Damn!

I can't top that!

NOBODY walks in LA...

[enigmatic]

114. Well, I lied

I wear a sock in a strategic place; I'm not too elitist to stay out of jail:)

[driver8]

116. Ha! Elitist!

I'll bet it's a Tommy Hilfiger sock or some shit like that.

[enigmatic]

118. Perry Ellis

My socks have STYLE, man!

[prolesunited]

121. You are, of course, a vegan

You can't qualify as morally superior unless you are

[driver8]

140. I can't??

Damn -- I screwed that up, didn't I?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. Oh Not By A Longshot. Intolerant Narrow Minded Zealots Are Victims Of Their Ignorance; Not Party

affiliation.

[Momgonepostal]

126. For the record, I choose not to shop at Walmart, but...

I don't condemn those who do. I'm fortunate enough to 1) live in a community with more choices 2) live much closer to a Target and 3) have the income level (though not high) to allow me to shop elsewhere. But we all do what we need to get by.

That said, just because person A needs to shop there for whatever reason, doesn't automatically make Wal-Mart a great store that sells a good product and treats it's employees well. It's still a lousy company.

[Connie_Corleone]

127. Who gives a shit what they think?

Do what you have to do. And if someone gives you shit about it, tell them to go to hell and worry about their own lives.

[NuttyFluffers]

129. yay! i'm a snob! i feel such a sense of belonging!

:hug: :grouphug: :loveya:

[OneBlueSky]

131. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" . . . always good advice . . .n/t

[donheld]

132. Bobbieo, You are correct

We are not immune from snobbery. It's sad, but I guess it's human nature.

[RPM]

134. "have to shop there"?

Is it the only store in town?

No one is putting a gun to your head and making you shop there.

While I agree that some people are a bit over the top when it comes to maintaing their "hard left street cred", I have to take issue with the idea that you "have to" shop at Wal-Mart.

If its the only food store within 20 miles, then I'll back off that.

However, I drive 22 miles to go to costco instead of 5 to go to Sam's Club, solely because of my moral stance against Wal-Mart - we must all do what we can and suffer accordingly to stick it to the Wal-Mart beast.

[B Calm]

141. My thoughts too...

[specimenfred1984]

143. Poor people for fascist repukes!

Rah, rah, rah!