24

[Orrex]

[BuyingThyme]

1. Saw the first couple episodes and thought it was well done.

Fell off the wagon long before it became a fake issue.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Nevah sawr it!

The adds are enough to make me laugh and flip the channel.

[bbinacan]

3. I'm a fan and it is

fictional.

[Trajan]

4. Obviously, a set of loaded questions ....

designed to promote the OP's viewpoint ....

Something akin to a 'pushpoll' ...

[Orrex]

10. Well no shit -- the whole issue is bullshit

First, find me a post anywhere on DU designed to refute the poster's viewpoint...

Second, the issue is that some people are totally in a lather about a fictional show its possible viewership. I suspect that some Rightwingers like to watch NASCAR and Bassmasters, but no one here gets all upset about it.

No, the problem is that people assume that 24 conforms to people's expectation of conventional Neocon "wisdom," so the show is taken to task more readily than a hundred other shows that are "ripped from the headlines."

[frylock]

33. there have been some very divisive threads concerning nascar..

not pretty.

[Connie_Corleone]

5. Love the show. It's way over the top, which makes it funny sometimes.

[Mojambo]

12. That's kinda why I like it.

I love the ridiculousness of it all.

Plus I like calling out the surprise endings before they happen. I called Curtis being killed by Jack early in hour 2.

[Connie_Corleone]

19. I called it on Sunday night.

My aunt watched it with me Sunday night. She loves Curtis. I turned to her and said, "You really think Curtis is going to survive the whole season?" She said, "He better!"

She called me last night after the show swearing I knew what was going to happen to Curtis. LOL!!

[Orrex]

23. Here's a dumb question with a SPOILER

Are we sure that Curtis is dead? Where was he hit, exactly? I interpreted his lapse into unconsciousness as a sort of succumbing to despair (admittedly coupled with the bullet wound, of course).

I mean, Tony got shot in the neck and was back in action in a few hours. Are you telling me that Tony is tougher than Curtis?!?

[Mojambo]

26. Yeah we were wondering about that as well

They made it look like he was dead, and when the guy called Jack he said he was sorry like Curtis died.

But without any declared statement that he IS dead, I'd remain skeptical.

[Connie_Corleone]

27. Good point. I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up alive in the

CTU hospital or whatever that place is.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. I've seen it and I think it's just another adventure show.

Not a very good one, at that. The British show, MI-5, is much, much better.

[graywarrior]

7. Jack Bauer performed amazing well and looked superb after 2 years in a Chinese prison.

24 is kinda like LOST. It's made up by writer's who write wierd shit.

[jgraz]

8. Are you really saying that something can't be BOTH fiction and propaganda?

If so, you really don't understand what propaganda is.

[Orrex]

14. Why yes, that's exactly what I'm saying...

Come on! Are you saying that fiction can't deal with a topic without endorsing that topic? I suppose that Huxley was a big fan of eugenics, then.

24 deals in a broad range of issues, most of them unfavorable to Bush's way of doing things.

The producers of 24 see an audience and market to it. Name a show that goes out of its way to avoid appealing to its audience.

[jgraz]

30. Thanks, you answered my question

You don't understand what propaganda is. And by your Huxley comment, you don't understand satire either.

Fiction can deal with a topic without endorsing and fiction can deal with a topic by endorsing it. When a show depicts the hero torturing people and having that torture always produce a beneficial result, that looks like an endorsement to me.

To take an extreme example, would you think it acceptable for a drama to show men forcing women to submit to sex, only to have the women end up enjoying it? Or how about a show that depicts drunk driving as cute and mischievous with no negative consequences? Or perhaps a show where all the black people are stupid and love to dance?

Fiction tells a story and most of us can understand that part. But the underlying assumptions of a story are almost always implied to be true. 24's underlying assumptions establish a context where torture can be a good thing and arabs should be feared. That's where the endorsement comes in.

[Orrex]

35. Right, right--I disagree with you, so I must not understand

You don't understand what propaganda is. And by your Huxley comment, you don't understand satire either.

Well, it's clear that you didn't understand my reply, either, so I guess we're even.

Fiction can deal with a topic without endorsing and fiction can deal with a topic by endorsing it. When a show depicts the hero torturing people and having that torture always produce a beneficial result, that looks like an endorsement to me.

In fact the torture does not always produce a beneficial result. The declared villains on the show routinely engage in torture; the use of torture by the show's protagonists can be viewed as a means of blurring the distinction between the heroes and the villains. It's a plot device. If you've watched the show at any length, you'd know that torture isn't glamourized--it's shown as a horrific and traumatizing and not always an effective means to an end. Last season, Christopher Masterson was tortured at length without providing any useful info; innocent people have been tortured in error. To dismiss the show's portrayal as producing "a beneficial result" is to reveal a lack of familiarity with the show's history.

To take an extreme example, would you think it acceptable for a drama to show men forcing women to submit to sex, only to have the women end up enjoying it? Or how about a show that depicts drunk driving as cute and mischievous with no negative consequences? Or perhaps a show where all the black people are stupid and love to dance?

How do you feel about Cormac McCarthy, Charles Bukowski, or Bataille?

Before I answer your question, clarify this point for me: what responsibility does an artist bear in guiding the interpretation of her work?

Fiction tells a story and most of us can understand that part. But the underlying assumptions of a story are almost always implied to be true. 24's underlying assumptions establish a context where torture can be a good thing and arabs should be feared. That's where the endorsement comes in.

You're criticizing all of western entertainment and media, in that case. Positive Arab characters are almost wholly absent from US media, and every cop show has at least one rough-neck rogue who doesn't mind getting his hands dirty if it means solving the case. 24 is hardly unique in this regard.

And the underlying assumptions of the story, as you term them, don't seem particularly problematic to me, because all fiction requires an acceptance of assumptions that some will find objectionable, whether it's Desperate Housewives or The Iceman Cometh.

[jgraz]

40. No, you disagree with me *because* you don't understand

Sorry -- that one was too easy. :P

You seem to be confusing endorsement with inclusion. Of course you can mention something in fiction without it being an endorsement. For example, Huxley's BNW was a strong piece of propaganda against eugenics and many other trends he saw in modern society.

If you're still unclear, contrast Birth of a Nation with Mississippi Burning. Both include depictions of the Klan, but only one of the films is endorsing the Klan.

[sandnsea]

9. Seen it, meh

I liked it the first year or two. Now, meh. I decided I really didn't like the torture propaganda, we just don't need it right now. Just like, in retrospect, we really didn't need 'make my day' either. Love Clint, but that really put this country on the wrong path as far as justice goes.

[Orrex]

22. Chicken and egg

How do you identify Eastwood's Sudden Impact as the cause and not the result of going down that wrong path?

The show has never glorified torture. Again and again it's been shown to be--at best--unpredictably fruitful and almost always psychologically destructive to the people undertaking it. Bauer's psyche has been visibly eroded by repeatedly inflicting/receiving torture, and the CTU agents charged with conducting torture-interrogations are portrayed as cold, machine-like shells.

[sandnsea]

29. Were you around then?

The country was moving away from that sort of police mentality, death penalty, etc. It was Barney Miller time, until 'make my day' and the return of the rogue cop. There's a segment of society that believes violence IS always the answer and this kind of stuff feeds right into it. I, personally, just don't think it's a good idea so I don't watch it. Somebody else wants to, it's a free country.

[Orrex]

36. In fact, I saw Sudden Impact in the theater

Sure it was Barney Miller time, but it was also Miami Vice time, and A-Team time, and First Blood time, and Delta Force time, etc. We can't just grab one benevolent example (a comedy, by the way, rather than a drama) and hold it up as emblematic of the time.

But yours is the right attitude; if someone wants to watch it, that's their choice. Me, I can't imagine how anyone can stomach American Idol, but I suspect that it will do pretty well in tonight's ratings nonetheless.

[sandnsea]

38. Those weren't like Harry Callahan

None of the glorified executing someone because you couldn't get justice from the court system. Way different.

Anyway, I gotta' go watch American Idol. Silly me, I love to see people's dreams come true. :)

[Orrex]

39. Oh, come now!

American entertainment is replete with vigilantee crusaders, of which Callahan is only a single example. A good many "classic" Westerns similarly involve men-of-action taking the initiative when the law isn't up to the task.

And do you truly like seeing people's dreams come true? If so, then you really only need to watch the season finale of Idol; every episode preceding that one is all about dashing people's dreams in as publicly humiliating a fashion as possible!

[TahitiNut]

11. Fox. ('nuf said.)

If I can avoid tuning into ANY Fox property, I will. I avoid the movies and all the TV channels. I'm not interested in putting another penny in Murdoch's "News Corp."

[fishnfla]

28. and as the prototypical hype goes to show you

a HUGE Fox moneymaker.

Pobably Condi's favorite show too

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Not Just A Fan; A Die Hard Fan Here.

Never miss it. One of the best tv shows ever IMHO.

[bluewave]

15. I wonder if Bauer will ever be locked in a CIA/Mossad secret prison?

'Nuff said.

[Connie_Corleone]

20. He was tortured in a Chinese prison for 2 years.

Does that count?

:shrug:

[Bryn]

16. To Each His/Her Own

I love that show!! Love Jack Bauer and Chloe

[mainegreen]

17. Other: Boring, poorly written, badly acted, predictable rubbish.

Painfully awful to watch, finding I prefer the knitting channel or Dr Keith to this lame tripe.

[hogwyld]

18. I've seen it, and I just can't understand why

anyone would be a fan of a show that reinforces bigoted sterotypes of Arabs, glorifies torture as an effective interogation technique, and cheers on domestic surveillance by our government. You may think it's entertainment, but our government, with Fox's help, is trying to brainwash you and make it a reality.

[Rage for Order]

24. By that logic....

I expect we'll be attacking Germany and Japan any day now. Obviously the History Channel keeps dredging up these awful things from the past that the Axis powers did just to get the public in a lather so we'll not only be de-sensitized to the war when it is started, but we'll actually be happy war was declared against Germany and Japan. Those bastards! I still can't believe they attacked Pearl Harbor!

[Kelly Rupert]

21. I saw and loved the first season,

but haven't seen any since. I do that from time to time. I loved Survivor and American Idol, too, and never saw any later seasons of those, either. I guess the novelty wears off, or something.

[EstimatedProphet]

25. I haven't seen it, and I don't want to

The poll question about how the neocons love it may look funny on the surface, but there's a grain of truth to it. That fact is, Republidiots like to point to the show as indication that torture works, yet ignore the fact THAT IT'S FICTION! Torture works in the show because the script says for it to work!

Idiots!

[frylock]

31. other - i've seen it and it hate because it's overhyped and not really that good..

sorry, but I watched an entire season (2005), and I was not impressed. At all. I understand it's fiction and you need to suspend belief, but this shit is so over the top it's laughable!! How many times did Marwan barely escape capture? Ten times? Fifteeen?! I didn't care for the characters much at all either. Just not my cup o tea.

edited for syntax and addendum: It also effed up Sunday night TV this week when I really needed a good laugh. FUCK YOU JACK BAUER!!!

[Sherman A1]

32. I found the show to be boring

a cross between, McGyver, the 1980's Tom Clancy novels and Law & Order (minus the Law). Just plain drivel in my opinion.

[Redbear]

34. Never seen it. No desire to. n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

37. Huge fan.