When will being gay not matter?

[dsc]

I posted this recently in LGBT forum but have decided to post it here in light of the recent FOX graphic about bringing San Francisco to Washington in 100 hours. Let's be blunt here, we all know they mean gay. San Francisco isn't known for minorities other than gays and asians (yes I know there are all kinds of minorities in SF but those are the only two anyone associates with SF). It isn't known for crime, it isn't known for lack of culture, it isn't known for corruption, and it isn't known for having bad housing stock. It is known as a haven for gays.

I was 16 for most of 1984. I heard and read the endless nonsense of San Francisco Democrats. They meant gay then too. As the only Mondale supporter in my government class (at least the only admitted one) I got called a fag by more than one Reagan supporter. They have wised up since then, they just use the code word and let it speak for itself.

My life would likely be quite different had I not been gay. I might well be a teacher in my hometown instead of half a continent away. I might be a lawyer there or even in politics. But that wasn't to be. Growing up gay gave me a sense of aloneness that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I also felt that I deserved that aloneness for what I was.

As an adult, I still can't be open in my chosen profession in many districts and schools. I am still trying to figure out if I can be open with the faculty of my current school. Given my boss' religious leanings I fear the answer may well be no. My district is kind of a don't ask don't tell zone as far as I can figure out which makes the department chair and principal very powerful in the decision to keep or not keep employees who are gay. If I were straight, that wouldn't be an issue.

Among college age people, being gay hasn't mattered for about a decade. Gay people are accepted and welcomed at most colleges in all but the most regressive of settings. But even then, there is a minority, who fret over San Francisco values.

I have no idea if being gay will be like being Irish which mattered about as much as being gay does in the 1800's or like being African American which matters a great deal today. I would love to see the day when being discriminated against for being gay would be seen as about as likely as being discriminated against for being Irish. I would love to see the day when it would be considered moronic to talk about San Francisco values as it is to talk of Belfast or Dublin values. I have no idea which model will prevail that of the Irish American experience or that of the African American experience.

[shadowknows69]

1. It doesn't matter to most of us

Just a few deadenders still hung up on it. Best we can hope for is that they will be evolved out of the species soon.

[johnnie]

2. Probably never

Just as much as being white, black, brown, man, woman, tall, short, fat, skinny, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Satanist, old, young, rich, poor, handicapped, ignorant, smart and so on will always be regarded as "different".

There will never be a "normal", it will be trumped by prejudice every time.

[BoneDaddy]

30. Satanist?

Ok, my camp is big, but not that big...do you have room for NAMBLA?

[Lilith Velkor]

51. Don't like freedom of religion? Too bad.

If you'd prefer associating with pederasts, give Tom Foley a call. :eyes:

[chaska]

3. Sorry, in a hurry, no time to read, but....

I did want to mention that Jay Leno has a gay regular on his show. His behavior toward the guy (can't remember his name) is a mixed bag, but it's obvious that he likes the guy (he calls him his youngest son, for example).

Last night they did an on location segment at, I think his name is, Jesse James' (the motorcycle guy) restaurant. There was a gay biker group eating there ... so far so good, right? And when Jay's youngest went to leave (with the gay bikers) Jesse James (the macho icon dude) gave him a hug.

It's getting better.

[dsc]

5. admittedly I go to bed way to early for Jay

I am glad though that he has a gay regular and he probably treats all his regulars mixed bag so that is good too.

[progdonkey]

7. do you mean Ross the Intern?

I haven't watched the show in a long while, but he always had Ross on to "gay it up."

I always got a bit more of a minstrel show vibe from it, in that Ross is just so stereotypically gay.

But I understand your view that it's a mixed bag, since Leno isn't mean to Ross or anything. It just kind of falls into the usual mold of "if a guy's going to be gay, he's got to be extremely flamboyant and nonthreatening." Still, it does give a platform for gay people to show they're still people.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

19. Jesse James is openly liberal, so it's not really surprising. nt

[Warpy]

4. It may always matter to juvenile males

especially those in religious households where everything sexual is taboo, and homophobic, closeted adult men.

The rest of us grow up.

[Journeyman]

6. Interesting. I didn't equate the Fox graphic with "gay values" . . .

but saw it as a gibe at "radical liberalism," which is closer to how I view the Bay Area than as a strictly homosexual enclave.

[Seeking Serenity]

55. That's exactly how DH, the Republican,

took it.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. Having lived in the bay area for a very long time, I can tell you that one overwhelming "SF Value"

is that here, more than anywhere else I've seen, it really doesn't matter all that much.

No wonder they're afraid of us. We're the future.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. One can look at the marginalization as an obstacle....

>>>My life would likely be quite different had I not been gay. I might well be a teacher in my hometown instead of half a continent away. I might be a lawyer there or even in politics. But that wasn't to be. Growing up gay gave me a sense of aloneness that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I also felt that I deserved that aloneness for what I was.

As an adult, I still can't be open in my chosen profession in many districts and schools. I am still trying to figure out if I can be open with the faculty of my current school. Given my boss' religious leanings I fear the answer may well be no. My district is kind of a don't ask don't tell zone as far as I can figure out which makes the department chair and principal very powerful in the decision to keep or not keep employees who are gay. If I were straight, that wouldn't be an issue.>>>>

.... which it certainly is, BTW, on many, many levels... OR as a sort of *gift*, which it also is.

If you were straight it wouldn't be an issue, life would be simpler, but you wouldn't be the person you are. Adversity can wear one down; it can also inform and enlighten. Seems to me, the larger culture needs your perspective and wisdom.

Whether it realizes it or not. And my guess is your hometown has enough straight lawyers (correct me if I'm wrong); the kids in your school district probably don't have many gifted intelligent, sensitive teachers, gay or not.

[StrictlyRockers]

10. It doesn't matter to me who you fall in love with.

[JohnnyLib2]

11. Working with junior high and high school kids--

I'd say the tide is turning toward "doesn't matter". Young teens who come to that realization probably don't back away from it. The undercurrents are promising IMO.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

20. I came out in '99 in HS.

Granted, this was in "red" (liberal) northern NJ, but it absolutely did not matter. There were quite few out gay students and kids with gay parents. It certainly didn't effect our social lives negatively. Things can only have gotten better since then.

[dsc]

23. congrats

Surely it is better now than when I was in school. I teach in a urban/suburban setting but in the South and my school is surely better than the one I went to, or the small town one I taught at last year, but I still would think it would take guts to be openly gay at my school.

[Sam Odom]

12. When will Gays not make it matter ?

M.L. King Jr. - " I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Seem we demos are the 1st ones to make "color" an issue instead of being color blind. We do the same with sexual orientation.

[dsc]

14. It isn't we dems who called me fag to my face

growing up. It isn't we dems who bullied me mercilessly growing up. It isn't we dems who say I can't be married at all, can only have job protections if I lie or live in a few states, and can have cops refuse to investigate crimes committed against me with no federal recourse. It isn't we dems who state I can't be in the armed forces of this country and be open about who I am. In short, it isn't we dems who make being gay or being African American for that matter, matter.

[Sam Odom]

16. Fatty, ugly, 4 eyes, shorty, ect...

Growing up isn't easy and I'm sure many of those insensitive kids you mentioned grew up to be dems. Personally I dont like or agree with 'hate speech' laws in general.

[dsc]

17. Where did I advocate for hate speech laws?

Please give me a specific quote, not a made up delusional one, where I do so. Actually the kids might have grown up to be Dems, I haven't a clue, but you know and I know that isn't what your post meant.

[Sam Odom]

18. You did not mention it

Nor did I say you did. I just threw it out so you and others would know because it isn't a stretch to go from this topic to hate speech.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

22. It isn't "demos" like me that make race or sexuality an issue.

It is the BIGOTS that make it an issue. It can be a non-issue when I am not a second-class citizen in my own country. Last time I checked, it's the REPUBLICANS that are making me an issue.

[MountainLaurel]

24. Sing it!

:applause:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

28. Thanks!

:thumbsup:

[libnnc]

27. What haruka said

When we stop being targeted that when it will stop being an issue. Got it?

[LostinVA]

32. Bingo n/t

[JackBeck]

26. Are you kidding me?

I guess you'd rather us go back into the closet.

The GLBTQ community will "not make it matter" when we stop getting beaten, harassed, or even killed over being gay.

[sandnsea]

31. Celebrate diversity

Not being judged negatively about skin color is not the same thing as suggesting differences be ignored. We celebrate all manner of ethnicities in this country and always have. It's only when it comes to money and sex that the racists rear their ugly heads. Sexual orientation is no different. Being 'blind' to the differences among us is no way to live. Should I be 'blind' to whether there are Jews or Jehovah's in my community, and consequently any problems of discrimination? Should I be 'blind' to the outward symptoms of poverty and starvation in an effort to 'see' all men as equal?

This is one of the more pathetic right wing story lines. It's essentially saying to lift the rug a lttle higher, we've got more 'inconvenient truths' to sweep under there. Just like 'abstinence only' avoids the truth of daughters who aren't virgins; 'fight 'em over there' avoids the complexity of terrorists and our complicity in global problems; 'quotas' avoids the truth of poverty and racism as true obstacles; and on and on. The Republican Party is like the gigantic US rug and their cute little sound bites are the broom that pushes truth out of 'sight'.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. are you out of your mind? we dont make it an issue. we just not blind to it.

[JackBeck]

41. Yes, this poster is out of their mind.

Gotta love the "search" option. Quickly found out that this poster has many crazy rantings. My favorite was the insult to Ted Kennedy.

[NMMNG]

37. Where do you get your ideas from

It's the bigots who are making orientation an issue. We're simply trying to live normal lives while they're doing everything they can to take our human and Constitutional rights away from us. They're the ones railing against us from the pulpits, on TV, over the Internet, on the radio, in the print media and in every other imaginable form. They are the ones who turned our orientation into a major political issue.

Don't crap on us for fighting back.

[mondo joe]

38. I would sincerely like to know how you think WE make orientation matter.

No flames - I'm really wondering if you can spell this out for me.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Go away, troll.

I have never heard of any of us referring to Democrats as "Demos" or ever seen any of us put color in quotes.

[LWolf]

13. When will being gay not matter?

When the bulk of humanity evolves beyond the current need to have an enemy, need to hate what does not look like, sound like, act like, worship like, or have relationships like "me."

When humanity evolves into a sense of self that is able to let go of fearing the "different," and appreciate and celebrate each individual as unique and beautiful.

I don't know how long that will take. I know it will only happen when each person, on an individual level, consciously chooses to "be" that change. Consciously chooses to let go of fear, to let go of needing to be superior, to embrace humility and appreciation of others.

Does that mean letting go of "pride?" That question just popped into my head when I was typing. I don't think we cannot be proud of what is wonderful and beautiful about ourselves; pride doesn't have to mean a sense of superiority. If we TRULY believe that all are "equal" in value, then "team spirit" (our team is better than yours), "nationalism" (our country is better than yours) partisanship (our party is better than yours), as well as all other forms of one-ups-manship is in conflict with equality.

We can't "be" change for anyone but ourselves. So we can't predict how long that evolution will take. I just know that I believe that it will, eventually, happen.

[vixengrl]

40. I think this is really key--people are "enemy-ed" or "other-ed"

and then they are labeled and treated according to the label--and there's the problem. Some people need to have that label to know how to "deal" with another human being, instead of seeing that human being for who they are. And pride comes in when someone believes there is a point of honor at stake in making an issue of that difference--a little difference, despite all that any persons may have in common. I think the change in the mindset will be gradual--but may have to do with people not being so quick to label or view people as "being" their: (gender, orientation, race, religion, political party) so much as being--people. And maybe a loosening of judgement could come if there was less stigma about the variety of human sex behavior in general--people just coming to the conclusion that what isn't "good" for them might be good for someone else wouldn't hurt. And so you live and let live.

I can't say I have a time-frame on when it won't matter--but I think I see minds opening, and people getting more "okay" about it--maybe as more people have come out, and more people can say they know or like or love someone who is gay. It isn't a lot, but I think it's happening.

[LWolf]

44. Doing away with polarity.

The simplistic, unrealistic black/white, you/me, us/them, good/bad, democrat/republican, liberal/conservative, day/night good/evil, right/wrong addiction to polarity, and "seeing" things in a multi-dimensional way, from all perspectives without adopting any as the "one" right way.

That's what your words made me think of, anyway. Thanks!

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

15. I wish it were now!

My heart breaks for some of my friends that are so good and kind and brilliant.

[CJCRANE]

21. When being human(e) matters n/t

[wiley]

25. It will always matter. Being gay or being straight is a great thing.

The kids I deal with (well, actually the ones who are over 21 or so and secure about who they are) consider it just something that makes up who a person is. My youngest son (26 now) has many gay male friends and he is as affectionate and open with them as with his girlfriend. Actually, the guys are way more physical with each other, and I think that's really a healthy development.

The problem is with expectations and with people of any age with tenuous self esteem. Growing into your sexuality, and maintaining that "male" image of being the aggressor, the top, the penetrator, the strong one, etc. really messes with kids heads as much as with their parents. What in childhood doesn't present an opportunity to make anyone feel "less than".

It still amazes me when a seemingly "straight" guy or gal responds to questions about their sexual activities during a routine clinical exam. It's gotten to the point that I do more genital/rectal/vaginal exams during a routine than I would ever have expected. Unfortunately, most of them ask that I not discuss their sexuality with their parents or family members. The funny thing is when I ask a patient who most people would definitely think is gay (some people like to think they have special "Gaydar" powers) about whether they are sexually active and they start talking about their multiple girlfriends and fear of STDs. It just always surprises me, in a positive way, but pisses me off that so many people think their sexual orientation or actions as the dominant one during sex protects them from STDs.

I perform more STD,HIV and hepatitis screening than is currently reflected in anyone's statistics. The biggest threat is from conservatives who believe that we should never inquire about "that" aspect of a person's life. I just emphasize protection (condoms and female condoms for men and women, safer sex, not assuming anyone is disease free, respecting any sexual partners). The hardest patients are those who believe they are unattractive or undesireable for one or more of many reasons, who "compromise" and have sex with people who obviously do not respect them or care if they transmit STDs.

Everyone is desireable and attractive based on who they are and how they treat others. People who have issues with another person's sexuality are almost always trying to protect an expectation or hope that they have for THEMSELVES, not their children or society.

Incidentally, that Irish thing really threw me off. I also see Irish American (and some Irish) patients frequently. It still saddens me that some of them have this internalized belief that they are somehow inferior because they come from Irish stock. There are still places in America where Irish Americans are not treated with the same respect as others. I think there is always a certain insecurity in all people at some point in their lives that makes them rate or value themselves as less than some ideal or pedigree. When it compels them to make some other group "undesireable" or "less than" to position their societal or sexual status, things always get ugly.

I strongly support parents and health educators and clinicians discussing abstinence as a means to protect oneself from things younger people are not fully aware of. It's an option they should know about, as well as a great way to bring up sexuality in a non-threatening way to kids 12 and above. It opens the door for kids to start talking with each other as well as seeking out more information. It's way better than them not having ever heard anything about sexuality. As a technique to prevent STDS, however, it's much less effective than talking about masturbation and what can happen if you don't know the facts about the full range of human sexuality.

[dsc]

29. I admittedly am not totally Irish

Of 8 great grandparents, 4 were Irish. I have to admit I have never heard of Irish people feeling inferior but go figure.

[annabanana]

54. Thank you for this post. You have a valuable perspective.

People show you aspects of themselves that they may hide from others close to them. Everyone's OK, you know? Everyone is just themselves and doing the best they can. And yet they punished themselves because they've been taught to think they were somehow deficient.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

34. When being straight no longer carries priviledges that the law forbids

GLBT's from enjoying as their birthright in the country.


Sadly, anti-gay bigotry will be with us as long as there are minds small enough to embrace it.

And that looks like forever :(

[SmokingJacket]

35. I think in about one generation, max.

There are huge chunks of the population already that it doesn't matter to. And I think by the time today's kids grow up, being homophobic will be as passe as riding around in a white sheet.

There will *always* be bigots, of course. But I think we'll soon reach a tipping point where it won't matter for the vast majority, and therefore for mainstream society at large.

[mnhtnbb]

36. It will take another generation--at least--in the U.S.

Among 20-somethings and younger, it seems to be less of a deal.
We have a gay son who came out to us when he was in 10th grade--2002.

I don't know what all the hoopla is about, except I do believe
that this is not a "lifestyle choice". It's hardwired in your genes.
When the fundie religious types--not just Christians--accept the science
of sexuality, maybe then it will cease to be such a big deal. Until then, you're going to see people want to criticize and judge anyone who is different from the way their religion tells them they should be.

When people start thinking for themselves, instead of accepting outdated myth based on ignorance, then being gay will not matter.

[Skittles]

39. when religion doesn't matter

in a word, never - there will always be religious freaks who demonize gay folk

[spacelady]

42. I thought about this for about 20 years & I predict that being gay

will be accepted around the same time pot smoking will be legal, but being gay will most likely be accepted sooner.

[dsc]

43. a little bit of clarification

Clearly I don't mean not matter to anyone anywhere. There are people who hate for goofy reasons that are nearly universally recognized for being goofy. I mean matter to a majority of people. An overwhelming majority of people would find it nearly non sensical to hate a person for being Irish or English but many people hate on the basis of race. It is that question I was asking.

[knitter4democracy]

46. One of my friends in college is a lesbian, and she's a teacher.

She came out right before student teaching in college. We were at a small evangelical Christian college in the middle of Ohio--not a safe place to be anything other than white and straight. Our secondary ed. prof and her cooperating teacher conspired to keep it all secret at the school where she student taught, knowing that she'd be in for a world of trouble if she came out there.

Our dumbass college made her come out to all her friends. I will never forget her pain in having to tell me every single detail of her past and decision to finally admit who she was. It was horrible, and I don't think anyone should ever have to go through that.

Think about it: we make people "come out" and tell everyone they know. Why? What does it matter to any of us? I don't ask my best friend if she's faithful to her husband, and she doesn't ask which positions my hubby and I prefer. Why should I care if anyone I know is attracted to someone other than our silly culture says they should?

It's not so much that "don't ask, don't tell" is a good idea, in my opinion, it's more that it really shouldn't matter to anyone. Sexuality is private, and I really don't care what anyone else's sexuality is (barring Hubby, since he's my only sexual partner).

I still think of my friend from college and wonder if she's still teaching. She had such a hard last year at college--barely survived is more like it.

[dsc]

47. my senior year was pretty tough

My college didn't make me come out but I made one of those dumb ass mistakes which forced me out. I am so glad I didn't go to a religious college, I don't think I would have made it. I hope your friend is doing well.

[knitter4democracy]

49. Not many did make it.

Only a few lesbians I knew graduated. Everyone else, and every gay man I knew, didn't graduate but left to go elsewhere. It was just too awful. The students were horrific to my friends, the profs didn't help much, and the administration was just plain nasty. They tried to make everyone go to the "counsellor" who believed that he could "cure" them of being homosexual and had the policy that all homosexuals had to come out to the college for their "protection." Just awful. I'm still furious about it. Makes me want to have a big ol' parade all through campus. :evilgrin:

I should see if I can find her and see how she's doing. I hope she's healing from all that crap from college.

[dsc]

50. I just can't imagine

The amount of self hatred that I had was pretty intense I would have considered killing myself if I had to out myself all at once. Your friend is a strong woman.

[knitter4democracy]

53. She really is.

Her apartment mates did everything they could to destroy her during her last semester, the jerks. I didn't find out until the next fall, though, or I would've taken care of that.

She was pretty depressed, but student teaching was so much work that it kept her going. Horrible. The whole thing was horrible.

[dsc]

56. Those religious colleges are tough

I had considered a Catholic school but declined it because I feared that the Pope at the time would crack down on academic freedom.

[Nicole]

48. Never

There will always be bigots who hate anyone that is different than they are. I've seen it changing for the better during my life but it's always there.

San Francisco values will always be code word for gay, just like Red State values will be code word for fundies.

[HardRocker05]

52. About the same time being a woman doesn't matter; homophobia is part and

parcel of anti-woman sexism.