Can you support the death penalty even though it's not 100 percent accurate....

[trumad]

and innocent people would be put to death?

I'm sorry...but I just can't understand the rationalizations that the pro-death penalty crowd makes for that scenario.

[madeline_con]

1. Do you think you'll get a sound thrashing from the

Nitpick Squad this time? ;)

[trumad]

4. Probably...

Again...how do you rationalize that it's OK to kill a few innocents for the better good.

You can't--- but oh they'll try.

[NMDemDist2]

2. no

I don't support the death penalty at all.

[davsand]

3. The government should not be in the business of killing its citizens.

The Government should be afraid of its citizens rather than us being afraid of our government--including our legal system.

THAT is the bottom lineas far as I am concerned.



Laura

[Kerrytravelers]

5. I'm against the death penalty.

My family has it written that we never want the state to ask for the death penalty in our names.

I like to point people to the following websites for some reading on the death penalty.

Innocence Project http://www.innocenceproject.org / and it's links page http://www.innocenceproject.org/links/index.php
Justice Project http://thejusticeproject.org /
Death Penalty Information Center http://deathpenaltyinfo.org /
Death Penalty Focus http://www.deathpenalty.org /

[Sugarcoated]

6. Nope.

There will always be mistakes and innocent people will be executed. That's enough for me.

[lovuian]

7. No I don't support the Death Penalty

I would make an exception on extremely dangerous murderers
that are hard to incarcerate

[Rosemary2205]

8. I really kindof schizophrenic on this

I support the death penalty in highly extreme cases where the guilt of the criminal is certain and life behind bars will not stop this criminal from inflicting more pain and suffering on people. The problem I see is that all too many times we think guilt is certain and then down the road we find out the already dead criminal turns out to be innocent. Until we figure out how to solve that problem we need to put a general stay on executions. IMHO.

[pocoloco]

9. Of course not!

How many Prosecutors can you trust?

[pitohui]

10. no one supports the execution of the innocent

i believe this is called the straw man argument

i think it is incumbent on this nation, IF we continue to have the death penalty, to fix our broken legal system which has a well-documented record of convicting the wrong man, any reading of materials from the innocence project will convince you how poorly our current system operates


i don't think it is good to destroy an innocent life by thrusting a man in prison for years or decades only to say "oopsy, my bad" and release him with no hope of getting back his lost youth, his lost family, his lost income, or any hope of doing anything forever but cleaning toilets

the problem of wrongful conviction is NOT just a death penalty issue and getting rid of the DP means NOTHING if we are still putting the wrong people in prison for years or decades because our system is broken


for me -- i would rather my innocent ass be on death row than my innocent ass be locked in a tin can w. a bunch of violent offenders, many of them violent rapists, for decades on end so i would have to say, don't do me no favors if i were ever in this situation, but obviously it depends on the prisoner and (i often suspect) his size

[Sugarcoated]

12. How can a legitimate point

be a straw man argument?

[pitohui]

21. the straw man is saying DP supporters support the killing of the innocent

i'm no logics professor but if you re-read the OP it sounds like a classic straw man argument to me

[seabeyond]

28. if you ignore the fact of innocents being killed and continue to support dp

then in fact you do support the murder of innocents as distasteful as that may sound so one may want to disassociate themselves with justifications and excuses,.... it is the reality

[pitohui]

38. the reality is that you are not reading my posts

there is nothing to debate here, it is straw man to continue to claim that anyone is ignoring the wrongful conviction of innocents

reading comprehension 101, i highly recommend it

it's quite rude to respond to posts not having read the post first, thank you

[seabeyond]

43. there are many people that ignore the innocent being murder

how they are able to continue supporting the death penalty

[pitohui]

46. no there aren't

i don't believe anyone concerned about our prison system is not upset about the high rate of wrongful conviction

[seabeyond]

53. kinda what i put in my first post somewhere. put hands to ears and say la la la la

of course there are. i have talked to many. just not on their list of outrage. they rationalize it in all kinds of ways. a favorite, where there is smoke there is fire. and 1 innocent to 10 guilty is price we pay. but beyond that, to support a system of death if we KNOW an innocent is murdered supports the death of innocent in the simpliest of ways. there is no more argument or rationalizing, validating or justifying. it is a fact.... truth... simple

so, if you like to believe that all people who support the dp also feel a responsibility to the innocent people they allowed murder to appease any sense of person guilt it is yours to do. my mind does not work that way. i cannot say that murdering an innocent is unfortunate. i will try to right the system so it doesnt happen. in the meantime to bad for the innocent i allow murdered cause the dp is needed. i dont think it is even needed. and certainly not if ONE innocent is murdered.

[fishwax]

71. your post is a better example of the straw man argument

Your setting up a straw man by saying the OP argued that DP supporters support killing the innocent. He didn't. He said by supporting the DP, DP supporters support a system that kills innocent people. That's an entirely different statement. You've misrepresented his position.

It's also a statement that very few would consider inaccurate--to consider it inaccurate, one would have to believe that nobody put to death under our system of capital punishment is innocent.

Anyway, if it's the case that innocent people are put to death under our system of capital punishment, then the OP's question--how can you support the death penalty knowing that it puts innocent people to death--is not a straw man at all.

[seabeyond]

19. it is strawman to say if possible to execute one innocent, dp is wrong?

i dont think you get what strawman argument is. this is the basis to the argument of dp. or one of the anyway. one innocent dead, you become the murderer you prosecute, with no excuse or justification.

[pitohui]

26. why do we assume we can't clean up this badly broken system?

say you are convicted of a crime of which you are innocent, which is not a capital crime

your life is still ruined forever

i think we need to focus on changing the system so that innocents are not killed OR put in prison

as far as the DP, if we "must" have it (i don't quite see why it is needed, britain and even mexico seem to do well enough without it), but if we "MUST" have it, twould be easy enough to only use it for criminals who were guilty beyond a doubt

eyewitnesses testimony by strangers is weak, we already know that, no one should be executed based on eyewitness account alone

however, some people such as jeffrey dahmer or saddam hussein are guilty beyond any doubt, while dahmer was never sentenced to death (he was killed by another prisoner) i don't think anyone could fairly object if he had been -- his guilt was clearcut

we could change the law, quite easily, to always err on the side of the caution

but we would still have the huge, huge, HUGE issue of wrongful convictions for non-capital cases, it is unbelievable how many people are being released from prison, their lives destroyed forever, because of wrongful convictions

the OP puts up a straw man, assumes DP supporters are happy to tolerate innocents killed, and goes on with his day -- i don't believe any DP supporter on the progressive side is willing to tolerate the death of even one innocent and i think it would be difficult (not impossible) to find such a person even on the darkest of the freeper web sites where "think of the children" rules the day

[seabeyond]

31. because always, mistakes will be made. because always

thru out history we have seen bigotry effect our judicial system regardless of your desire for it not to be there. bigotry of the poor, bigotry of minority

it is a reality we live. ergo you live within the reality instead of allowing murder of innocents with the hope that in time we will be able to create something we will never be able to create. that is how people allow murder of innocents to continue and feel isolated from the responsibility. you really really want to make the system clean, not responsible for innocent death cause not intent. but if you are for dp, you are responsible for death of innocent

[pitohui]

36. so just throw up our hands and not even try to correct the wrong?

we are not at a point where we can say "mistakes will always be made" -- this makes it sound like wrongful conviction is a rare, rare event like winning the lottery or something

we are at a point where, as another poster says, the innocence project is finding dozens and dozens of cases of wrongful convictions of cases for serious crimes like murder and violent rape

i actually know a couple wrongly convicted of murder

i bet everyone here knows someone personally wrongly convicted of some lesser crime, their conviction impacts their life forever, and we're not even really looking at those cases because there are so many lives to be saved from the draconian sentences and the executions first

we have a HUGE problem w. wrongful convictions in this country

saying it's a matter of "if only one innocent..." is completely out of touch, we as a society haven't even tried to work out a system that will reduce wrongful convictions to a rarity, they are not rare, they are common

our entire system needs an overhaul, not just the DP, if you really care about wrongful convictions

[seabeyond]

41. now that is strawman. no dp so MUST be throw hands up and give up

rather rare or common, one innocent gets murder it is a wrong. that is simple enough. that is all i need to know. and there will always be error. we are human.

it isnt an end of the world, we have no solution, throw hands up in air. there are other solutions, .... life in prison. we have used in past, we use presently we do in future. no hand throwing up in air.

and of course, we always work towards a just judicial system. that is a given

[H2O Man]

45. One of my best friends

was wrongly convicted. Police investigating the crime that he and a friend were charged with, called the two "niggers, animals, Muslims, and murderers." The prosecutors requested the jury sentence the two to die in the electric chair.

Two decades later, the two men were found to be innocent.

My friend is active on the international level in advocating for the wrongly convicted. And his primary focus in opposing the death penalty -- in ALL cases.

[pitohui]

47. i just read your other posts, what a heart breaking story

i think we need a complete overhaul of the system, getting rid of the DP is only a start in my view, as getting rid of the DP won't get back the 19 years

[H2O Man]

50. While it's true

that no power on earth can give him back those 19 years, it is also true that had he been executed, he would not have worked for the past 20 for prison reform, in advocating for the wrongly convicted, and in opposition to capital punishment. His work has brought him to almost every state in the US, to Canada, many European countries, to the Middle East, and has led to his developing a close relationship with Nelson Mandela. I'm glad he was not executed.

[pitohui]

52. agreed

it's amazing how he has overcome something like this

[H2O Man]

54. A quote

from a 1992 article about his case:

"It's not finished. I still feel the loneliness. I still feel the pain. I feel it now. I feel EVERYTHING. The day you get out of prison is the day your sentence begins."

This fall, a journalist said that very few people are subjected to the horrors that he was. My friend responded that all people are subjected to hardships in life, and that the important thing is how we respond to those hardships life deals us. It would have been easy for him to become bitter, but he is one of those stubborn types who doesn't tend to do anything the easy way. He has no bitterness, just compassion.

[Spazito]

55. Your friend's example is the one I often use when debating the

death penalty and why it should be abolished everywhere. His ongoing commitment to fight against the injustices currently inherent in the legal system has my greatest respect.

I, too, am very glad he was not executed.

[H2O Man]

57. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Normally, I am able to remain detached from the emotions of this general topic. Today I think I'll call my friend.

[TankLV]

64. Now, what YOU just stated IS a prime example of a "straw man"

Being in prison for years is a whole lot better than death - any sane person could see that...

To equate being wrongfully in prison - and then released upon finding you're innocent is a "tad" different than trying to raise the dead!

[wryter2000]

42. It's not a straw man if it actually happens n/t

n/t

[TankLV]

62. Not a straw man argument at all but a very BIG part of the equation...

The trouble with the idiots who support the death penalty is that they would rather many innocent persons be murdered just so they can hope to catch ONE guilty person...

I would rather see many GUILTY persons go scott FREE than kill ONE innocent person!

[Kingshakabobo]

110. How about this.....

We abolish the death penalty. If YOU get wrongfully convicted YOU can go kill yourself. How's that?

[spanone]

11. What if YOU are the one percent??? Fuck NO.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. No

for several reasons, the first of which is that innocents are executed.

The next reason is that a person can become rehabilitated, even in jail-take Robert Stroud, for example. He became and expert in birds and even found medicines to cure bird diseases.

The next reason I got from an interesting OP by a DUer who is a psychologist-executions do a number on our group psyche, our society as a whole.

[pitohui]

44. stroud also killed someone in jail

it has been awhile since i read his biography but he's a difficult case for our side, as i recall, his original murder conviction probably should have been manslaughter but he did knife a guard to death in prison

the argument i hear from DP supporters is, it isn't fair to the other prisoners

there are dangerous people in prison and sometimes not-so-dangerous people too, and the naive kid who sold too much product to the cop may be in the same maximum security prison as the rapist who is not afraid to use a knife

as a society we look away while sexual predators run amok in prison, instead of providing decent and safe housing for prisoners, and it's hard to argue this point w. the DP supporter who does not want the worst of killers w. nothing to lose able to interact w. others

i don't make this argument myself, i'm saying i understand this argument

if we want to eliminate the death penalty, we MUST support better, safer prisons that provide safe and decent living conditions

[Doctor_J]

14. Here in IL, it was only 50% ACCURATE!

and what's more depressing is that there isn't any reason to believe that the non-capital conviction rate isn't any better.

[pitohui]

48. of course it wouldn't be any more accurate

why would it be? hell, people in less serious cases are pressured all the time to settle and plead guilty

[chefgirl]

15. Absolutely not

I don't support the death penalty for that reason and more.

Its plain wrong to murder people to teach other people not to murder people. Taking a life is taking a life, no matter who does it.

Secondly, as far as I'm concerned, death is no punishment, nor does it leave any opportunity for rehabilitation. (even if it is a long shot)

-chef-

[H2O Man]

16. As you know,

a good friend of mine, along with another man who I know casually, were convicted of a violent crime that took place in 1966. They were convicted in '67. The prosecution requested the jury sentence both men to the electric chair. Instead, they were sentenced to "triple life." It took 19 years, but my friend eventually won his freedom. As various police records were uncovered, it became clear that a couple police officers not only hid evidence they knew showed my friend was "not guilty," but more -- they hid evidence that indicated they knew who had commited the crime. The prosecutors who tried the case were aware of the police misconduct at the time. They wanted to execute my friend for something they were wrong about.

If for no other reason, this alone makes me oppose capital punishment.

[trumad]

35. If the Jury took the Prosecutors advice...

your friend would not be here today.

[H2O Man]

39. Correct.

My friend is now involved in working on the international level to oppose capital punishment. He also works on cases in the USA and Canada to help those who have been wrongly convicted. But most of his energy is invested in fighting the death penalty.

[Liberal In Texas]

17. The death penalty is barbaric. It's not something a civilized people should engage in. n/t

[seabeyond]

18. i know people who do. but that is one of the handful of bottom lines for me

with the death penalty. i will ask a person, we know innocents have been murdered. and at that point it is murder..... then you cannot support the death penalty. they say there is error in all things, but few and far between. i dont get it. if we murder one innocent, it is one too many. but then as i say, this is just one of the handful of duh's for me with the death penalty

[hamerfan]

20. No death penalty!

Life without parole is much harsher.
dumpbush

[pitohui]

29. innocent people get life w.out parole too

if it's about inflicting cruelty, we need to be aware that wrongful convictions don't just affect people charged with capital crimes

the original post is about *wrongful* convictions, i don't see why we would want to be even more cruel to the innocent who have already had their lives destroyed so the guilty party can skate

[seabeyond]

33. and there is always the possibility of catching the mistake. take it away when you kill them

[pitohui]

51. agreed that's a legitimate point of debate

if i were innocent i would rather be promptly and humanely executed rather than spend 19 years in a tin can as in the story told by h20 man, it's a great that his friend was able to overcome this, i don't think i would be able to and i wouldn't be interested in trying, esp. not at my age, 19 years is probably all there is -- BUT THAT'S JUST ME -- some heroic, strong people obviously do overcome and have a reason to continue to live after a wrongful conviction for a capital crime

my take is that justice delayed is often justice denied, one of the most heartbreaking things about the innocence project is stories of wrongly convicted who are finally released only to find they have no skills and no network other than that learned in prison and if they want to earn, they themselves must turn to crime

we need to fix the whole system, all of it

[seabeyond]

56. it isnt good, it isnt pretty, ii agree. i have seen the system with two brothers

in different measures. i am not impressed with our system at all. scares the hell out of me. never having gotten in trouble and never having experienced the system, i trusted, foolishly and blindly. why i know how and why these people have the attitudes they do. they THINK our system is better than it is. these two cases, watching what happened, left my mouth hanging open and fearful of our justice and stating i never want to get into that place because i know the many errors of the ways. here, i will agree, our systems needs addressing in the worst of ways.

[TankLV]

65. The dead can NEVER "reclaim their lives" - but the LIVING can - and DO!

But are fixated on the "imprisonment" part while blissfully ignoring the DEATH part.

If I were innocent, I would want to LIVE!

Your lack of logic and understanding are extremely poor...

You fight a ridiculuous argumente at best...

[k_jerome]

22. that is the deal breaker. innocent people WILL be executed. nt.

[suston96]

23. As long as.....

....as long as prosecutors almost unanimously believe that the objective of prosecution is a conviction rather than justice, the death penalty must not - cannot be used.

In other words - http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/guilty.htm

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," 2 says English jurist William Blackstone. The ratio 10:1 has become known as the "Blackstone ratio." 3 Lawyers "are indoctrinated" with it "early in law school." 4 "Schoolboys are taught" it. 5 In the fantasies of legal academics, jurors think about Blackstone routinely. 6 "

[aikoaiko]

24. Sure.

In truth I am pro DP, but I would like to see it used in fewer cases.

[Greyhound]

66. Why? n/t

[rsr1771]

25. I support

...the death penalty in limited instances. But it's true that since humans are not perfect, there are or will be innocent people put to death. But by that logic, we should never jail ANYONE since there is a risk we would incarcerate an innocent person.

I think the death penalty should be an option for those who commit crimes while incarcerated- like if you murder a prison guard. If you are serving a life sentence, there really is no other deterrent except for a death sanction.

[H2O Man]

32. "By that logic,

we should never jail ANYONE since there is a risk we would incarcerate an innocent person."

Actually, quite the opposite. Innocent people are incarcerated from time to time. In the best of these sad cases, the person can be released when the error is found. If they have been executed, they cannot be released.

[Annces]

27. If it were not for the death penalty

Jesus Christ would have lived a full life.

I think crucifixions were a way for the authorities go get rid of loud-mouth activists.

[MazeRat7]

30. there is no need for the death penality...

Yes I oppose it for many reasons... but for those that support the idea I would remind them that "death" is not a punishment.

But if you are one of those that are hell bent on "getting your two pounds of flesh" or justice, or whatever you care to call it,

lock the subject up for life with no chance of ever getting out. They do this today, and they spend 23 hrs a day in an 8x10 cell with 1 hour out for exercise.

There is no "social" life, no "contact", no nothing where the outside world is concerned..

If that were my sentence, I would "ask" for death to escape living the rest of my life being "punished" like that every day.


MZr7

[Squatch]

34. The death penalty IS 100% accurate.

The system that assigns that penalty, on the other hand, is not.

[trumad]

37. That is true....

and that it enough for me.

[wryter2000]

40. No. n/t

n/t

[tbyg52]

49. No.

If you make a mistake with the death penalty, there's *nothing* you can do to mitigate the consequences of your error.

[uberllama42]

58. Would be...?

ARE put to death. It happened all the time in TX under George and FL under JEB. It still happens in those states.

[Totallybushed]

59. If decisions,

of any sort, have to be made with 100% accuracy, then no decisions will be made. The more serious the decision, of course, the more certain you would like it to be. But 100% is impossible.

Yet certain crimes deserve death. What reasonable person could lament the demise of the late Saddam, for instance? Plus, there has been a lot of talk about wanting to see Bush, Cheney, etc. hang, on this website.

So what's it to be? If you are for the death penalty, you must be willing to accept that some small percentage of error is possible. If you are not, then neither Saddam, Eichmann, Bush, Stalin, Castro, Pol Pot, or any other mass murderer is worthy of death. And if you are for it only when there is 100% certainty, then... perhaps you shouldn't be entrusted with the judgment.

[Spazito]

63. I can only assume, then, that if it were your son or daughter, your

mother or father whom you knew to be innocent, you would be okay with the death penalty being used in their case and could shrug it off as one of those "small percentage errors" you feel are acceptable?

[Totallybushed]

67. Naturally, I would do

everything possible to prove their innocence, and make every effort to get them the best legal aid.

But what do personal feelings have to do with it? Social policies are made to benefit the vast majority of the populace, and no matter what they are, someone is going to be dissatisfied.

No, I wouldn't be OK with it, but I would still support the death penalty for especially heinous crimes.

[athena]

93. That is simply not true.

Social policies are not "made to benefit the vast majority of the populace." If that were true, black slavery would be legal, since the vast majority of the American population is non-black, and the majority benefits greatly from slave labor. We wouldn't have a problem with small numbers of people being tortured, since the vast majority of people will never be tortured. We wouldn't care about the rights of homosexuals, since they are a small minority. Social policies don't aim to protect or benefit the majority -- that most laws end up benefiting the majority is an indirect consequence of democracy, but it is not a guiding principle. The guiding principle of the social movement is that every single life is equally valuable.

In fact, you are contradicting yourself, since you said earlier that the rate of false convictions is a problem that needs to be fixed. If it's OK that a small number of innocent people are put to death, why is it not OK that a small number of innocent people are put in prison for life? I may point out that abolishing the death penalty and trying to make the justice system more accurate are not mutually exclusive.

[H2O Man]

94. The power of

logic and rational thought!

Thank you.

[Totallybushed]

98. Oh, bullshit!!

Attempting to fix errors in a system, such as the death penalty, does not require abandoning the system. I hate to ask, but where, exactly, was it that I said it was OK for a certain number of innocent people to be put to death. Can you actually read what is written? As for contradicting myself, have you looked at the really nonsensical statement you wrote? The rate of flase convictions does need to be fixed. As much as it can be. But the system of convicting criminals cannot be abandoned.

What I said was that certain crimes deserve the death penalty. I also said that no system is 100% perfect. That in no way translates into saying that it is OK to excute innocent people. Every precaution should be taken to eliminate as far as possible that possibility. But certain crimes must be punished by death in a civilized society.

I agree with you that every single life is equally valuable. But you are wrong. society makes its social policies for the benefit of the society, which is basically the majority of the people. Except in a dictatorship, of course.

[Greyhound]

68. "It is better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be imprisoned" n/t

[Totallybushed]

72. Maybe,maybe not?

Cliches often have numerous exceptions. Or don't you agree? In fact, they are often dead wrong. I try not to use cliched thinking, although I'm not "100%" successful in that, anymore than anybody else.

[Greyhound]

73. More than a cliche, it is the reason our legal system used to be based

on the premise of innocent until proven guilty. Now of course, we live in a police state where that is simply a quaint legal notion to be ignored for any, or even no reason at all.

[Totallybushed]

75. Until proven guilty

beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is not the same thing, at all, as no doubt. Or as 100% certainty.

[blondeatlast]

83. Self-delete. nt

[Totallybushed]

89. Too bad,

I always like to see what my opponents say in anger. It gives a real insight into their thinking.

[BlooInBloo]

99. Fine. How many innocent people are you willing to let the State kill?

Tell us what your number is.

[Totallybushed]

100. I am not

willing that anyone should be punished falsely. I'm just aware, as some do not seem to be, that humanity is imperfect, and that no system works without mistakes.

But that does not mean that there shouldn't be a system to punish the criminally guilty.

Tell me, how many innocent people are you willing to be killed because society would neither execute their murderers or keep them locked up forever?

[elocs]

60. Can you support the criminal justice system even though it is not 100 percent accurate?

Although I oppose the death penalty, I do realize that there is very little in life that is 100 percent accurate. There are undoubtedly thousands and thousands of people in our jails and prisons who are innocent. The morality or immorality of the death penalty should not turn on its accuracy.

[Balbus]

70. Though it is true that there are innocent people in jail,

while they're still alive, they at least have a chance of having the wrong rectified. If they're put to death - they don't. I'm totally down with the opinion that there are crimes that deserve death as the penalty. But I can't stomach the fact that we have error-prone humans making that ultimate, non-reversible, decision.

[Left Is Write]

95. The death penalty, however, is permanent.

[TankLV]

61. I am totally against the death penalty. Period.

No if ands or buts...

If somebody I cared for, I'd want revenge - but that is precisely why I'm against the DP - it would save me from darker self...

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. I wouldn't support it if it was 100% accurate

I wouldn't support it if it were reserved for only the most vicious killer who were proven beyond ANY doubt at all to have committed their crimes.

I wouldn't support it for Hitler.

That's what it means to OPPOSE the death penalty.

[LWolf]

74. I don't support it anyway.

That argument (the killing of innocents) is simply the last line in the sand for those who feel justified in taking the lives of others for revenge.

[rpgamerd00d]

76. I support the DP, even though its not 100% accurate.

I do not wish anyone innocent to die, of course.

But innocent people die every day due to human mistakes. Car accidents, faulty elevators, gas leaks, e-coli poisoning - the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

Since Humans can never be perfect, I see no reason to let child rapists live out their lives just because we might make a mistake and kill an innocent person by accident.

Humans dying by mistake is a fact of Life. I say, kill the heinous criminals and suck up the mistakes.

[Solon]

77. So life means nothing to you?

Especially considering that you make no distinction between PREVENTABLE mistakes, like the death penalty, and UNPREVENTABLE mistakes, like a Piano falling on your head.

[rpgamerd00d]

80. All mistakes are preventable.

All you have to do, is not exist.

Slip in the tub? Ban tubs.
Car accident? Ban all cars.
Choke? Ban breathing.

To ban certain human behavior based on the fact that we can make mistakes is just plain silly. What we do, is we alter that behavior a little, taking precautions that seem beneficial and practical, and then we move on with life. The answer to auto accidents isn't banning autos, its installing airbags and seatbelts and crushzones. And even with those protections, people STILL die in car accidents. Yet, gee look, cars aren't banned. And no one is talking about banning cars. They are talking about making EVEN MORE saftey improvements.

DP is exactly the same. Make a mistake? Add protections to mitigate it. Make another one? Fix that too. Another? Wow, we need to really fix this system, make it better. And better. And better. Until the day comes where we can kill heinous criminals with virtually no chance of mistakes.

But not ban the DP outright, that makes no sense.

[Solon]

87. But the DP isn't necessary in today's society...

Walking outside, at least occasionally, is, if not for anything practical, at least for your health. You are comparing activities that serve other purposes with one that serves ONLY ONE PURPOSE.

[trumad]

90. LOL

Yeah===and don't worry about the mistakes---they're only human lives...

[rpgamerd00d]

104. Hypocrite. I bet you drive a car.

Even knowing that you could make a mistake and kill someone, you still drive the car.

I hate hypocrites.

[trumad]

107. I hate knuckleheads

[rpgamerd00d]

108. Nice. How long did that reply take you to think up?

You knowingly engage in an activity that, upon human error, could take an innocent life (or lives), yet you condemn another activity that, upon human error, could take an innocent life.

Where I come from, that's called "hypocracy".

[trumad]

117. It took me two words into your last post...

WHY? Because it's very easy to sense an idiot.

[Moochy]

109. Lame

-1000 EXP for you, and the loss of a level.

[rpgamerd00d]

111. I bet you're one of those car-driving hypocrites, too, arent ya? -nt

[Moochy]

113. Actually no, I'm a pedestrian

but I do recognize an idiotic leap of illogic when I see one, and you have been making some silly ones in this thread.

I stand by my imposition of a level-loss penalty! :P

[rpgamerd00d]

114. Really? What is illogical about it?

You cant just make a claim its illogical without explaination.

Its not only 100% logical, its irrefutable.

I dare you to try to explain your point of view.
Double dog dare ya!

[Moochy]

115. a better question what is logical about it?

Save us both some time. The answer? nothing.

in post #80:
"Until the day comes where we can kill heinous criminals with virtually no chance of mistakes."
This premise is so laughable as to be unattainable in any "real world" that you and I share.

So you want me to believe that you honestly think, that driving a car and the uncertainty about harm done to innocents while driving is the same as the risk of the state executing innocents, because of legal errors or outright malfeasance and corruption, with the death penalty? Really? If so you need to go back to logic boot camp, and any posts that I make pointing out your errors are pointless.

have a good day d00d.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moochy]

119. Yeah, you told me off or something

RPGGamerD00d: "You win Hypocrite of the Millenium."

Moochy: "I am so pleased to be accepting this award from DU's own preeminent mind on der kounterkultural kool that is leet d00d-ism, RPGGamerD00d."

RPGGamerd00d "Yes thats right driving a car is worse than driving, you see. Acceptable risk and all, that sort of rot. ahem. Now if you'll excuse me RPGG4merd00d is needed in the science lab for a self-congratulatory wank."

[NorthernSpy]

78. I won't respect death penalty supporters...

... until they agree to give up their own lives if they have a hand in a mistaken execution.

If you supported the execution of someone who later turned out not to be guilty, then you should off yourself to make up for it. If you don't respect your own code enough to impose it on yourself, then why should anyone take you seriously?

[rpgamerd00d]

81. Sure, as soon as you kill yourself if you get into a car accident which results in a death.

What a stupid statement...

[NorthernSpy]

82. nope: killing for justice is YOUR principle, so YOU live up to it...

... or admit that you can't.

[rpgamerd00d]

85. Driving for profit is YOUR principle, so YOU live up to it ...

... or admit that you can't.

[NorthernSpy]

86. O-kaaaaayyyy....

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

79. No. And that is 1 reason I do not. eom

[blondeatlast]

84. No; and those that can should be able to accept vigilante justice as well.

"Beyond my personal reasonable doubt, YOU stole my wife."

Bang.

"Oh, hell, she left of her own accord. Damn, but mistakes happen."

[Raksha]

88. No, I can't--but then I don't support the death penalty anyway.

That's just one of the reasons (and it's a big one!) but there are others.

[Blue-Jay]

91. I will never support state-sponsored revenge.

[jeffrey_X]

92. Absoutely not.

eom

[garybeck]

96. I have NEVER supported the death penalty. that's one good reason. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

97. There are other reasons to be against it, but that one suffices,...

... for a person with even a shred of humanity, at least.

[leftofthedial]

101. next to abortion

the death penalty is the most grossly underutilized of all man's processes


or maybe not

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. Overall, I Don't Support The DP. However, When The Person Is Definitively Guilty Of Barbaric Acts,

and there is no longer the risk in that case of executing an innocent, then my sympathy and concern goes away quite a bit. I think the concept of the DP is wrong because of those risks. But on an individual basis, when a case comes that is concrete in its findings of guilt, then that argument is no longer valid whatsoever.

Take that piece of shit Saddam for example. Everyone knows he was a brutal, evil, barbaric bastard who had countless numbers of Iraqi's killed, maimed, abused, or otherwise. In a case like that, there really is no longer a conflict of "what if the DP kills someone who's innocent", since it no longer applies in the individual case.

So overall, I can't condone the DP for several reasons, a main one of which is the risk of executing an innocent. But when addressing the DP argument on a specific individual basis, when guilt is factually without a doubt known and the crimes on a level of evil, then I kinda loosen up a hell of a lot.

In Saddam's case, I care so little about his humanity for what he's done to so many innocents, that I wouldn't bat an eye if they choked him to death and gave him mouth to mouth to resuscitate him just so they could choke him to death again, and resuscitated him again, repeatedly. I just can't bring myself to feel anything more than "ehhhh, see ya evil fucker", for people on the level of evil and brutality.

[DemReadingDU]

103. morning kick

[madokie]

105. I've thought about it and I've thought about it and NO I cannot support the death penalty

to me that would not be punishment. many people are looking for what is on the other side anyway

[mdmc]

106. "It won't effect me"

I am rich and white, without any criminal background.

Those that support the death penalty also support the drug war... It won't hurt them, they think. They are wrong.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. Nope nt

[Zhade]

116. They will support it right up until THEY get wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death.

NT!