You know why I decided to take a break?

[Mythsaje]

All the fucking negativity gets to me after a while. Too much focus on all the bad things going on, and not enough positive thoughts on how to make things better. Too many times the people respond to "ain't this great!" comments with a "yeah, but all this shit sucks really bad."

I'm tired of hearing "oh, the planet is dying and so are we." Well, if we're dying, let's go out with a fucking bang. I'm sick of hopelessness and negativity and "what's the point in trying, anyway?" Let's grab the future by the horns and jack it up for all its worth. You think we're all doomed? Do something crazy to let everyone know. Otherwise quit harping about it. Because I don't think we're doomed at all. And I'll tell you why.

I had a revelation the other day. It spawned from watching "What the bleep do we know?" If you haven't watched it, DO SO. Then get back to me. And leave your negativity somewhere else, 'cause you ain't helping anyone, least of all yourself. Or the fucking planet.

The revelation? Here it is. Without consciousness, all of this is pretty goddamn pointless. For the moment, in our purview, that's US. Without us, without sentience, or consciousness, to try to make sense of it, the universe might as well not exist.

What's the point of it all?

US. And probably not just us, since there are billions and billions and billions of possible planets with life on them out there. But consciousness? Sentience? Hell, yes. We exist to make sense of it all. To bring order out of what sounds an awful lot like chaos.

All you "realists" and those who decry "magical thinking?" Quantum physics says you're wrong. All thinking is magical. That's the whole point of it all. Reality bends itself around consciousness. Our world, our bodies, our very existence hinges on how we think about it.

So is the world going to end? Is the human race going to snuff itself out?

I doubt it. It wouldn't serve our purpose at all.

Chew on that.

So think positive. The universe will love you for it.

[wake.up.america]

1. Absolutely! Be thankful for that which is positive. And be positive we can change what is negative.

[ninkasi]

2. I think you need to read

some of Peace Patriot's posts. Please, look for them.

[WCGreen]

3. I guess some people like to set the bar for success so high that

nothing short of total annihilation of the opponent will suffice...

This also applies to indivdual co-alitions with in the democratic party that feel anything short of total acceptance of their goals equals a rebuke by the so-called powers that be...

And mide as well throw in the constant harping about how the media is always against the progressive agenda...

That is a given as companies and organizations tend to be conservative in nature...

It is the individuals who provide the progressive spark...

[Raine]

4. I feel that way too

often I ask myself why I come here because I mostly end up feeling worse after having done so. I guess one thing I really like is that DU is up to the second on what is going on and that's what keeps me coming back.

[orleans]

5. kind of like the global orgasm ?

http://www.globalorgasm.org/ ?

(oh crap! i forgot about it!)

[truedelphi]

63. Better Late than Never! n/t

[seabeyond]

6. i played pictionary with my family tonight and we had the BEST

time. we laughed and didnt want the game to end. just a blast. everyone of my days are a blast with my family. all this world outside, all the negativity, doesnt come close to living the life that i live. you want positive. walk into my world. just a nice healthy perspective on stuff

[puebloknot]

7. Have you read Bruce Lipton's...

..."Biology of Belief"? I very recently attended a seminar with him and Greg Braden.

I heard Lipton is coming out with a new book very soon, and Braden has one just out called "The Divine Matrix."

Lipton's work, especially, gets right down to the science that backs up his claims. Of course, mainstream scientists don't cotton to some of his ideas. He seems not to care a whole lot about all that! :)

I think "positive thinkers" sometimes take on a bit of a cult-like devotion to this subject in that they begin to feel that sweeping our own doorsteps is a sign of lack of faith. I'm saving up the dust on my doorstep so some of my positive-thinking friends can zap it away for me! Those same types decry political activism as a sign of a lack of spiritual evolvement. And I say, "Tell that to Mr. Gandhi."

Seriously, though, the idea that mind creates reality, energy creates form, is a *very* intriguing arena! My own experience tells me that it is so, but I sometimes succumb to doubt, also, so thanks for the kick in the psyche tonight!

And...have you seen the film "The Secret" that talks about our universal oneness, and the law of attraction? It's been streaming online for free, but I don't know how long that will last.

Some of my favorite books on this subject:

"The Conscious Universe" and "Entangled Minds" by Dean Radin

"The Field" by Lynne McTaggart

"The Self-Aware Universe" by Amit Goswami, Ph.D

I can read all these books, but in the next incarnation I plan on studying physics so I can understand it all at a deeper level.

On the other hand, now that I think of it, I dated a physicist for seven years and, looking back, he could have learned a *lot* from me (How *did* I know, sitting next to him in a theater, that my daughter had just been in an accident when she was a thousand miles away from me?) if he hadn't been so darned educated!

Fortunately, there's a new breed of scientist who is willing to look at all these questions. That old cliche (but a true one) comes to mind again: "Science advances, funeral by funeral."

I'm positively delighted that you checked back in here in the waning hours of the year 2006! :)

(Maybe we should start a discussion group about all this stuff. Well, we don't have to discuss it. We can just think it and, voila, we're all on the same page!) :)

[suziedemocrat]

24. It's about balance. Too much positivity is just as annoying as too much negativity.

[Mythsaje]

33. Annoying, maybe.

But dangerous? No. Negativity is dangerous. Positivity is just annoying. :D

[puebloknot]

65. I didn't say anything about danger.

I've just had the experience of seeing people distort the idea of positive thinking into a fundamentalism that is childlike; that's all. :)

[Mythsaje]

46. I think that one has to balance positive thought

with positive action. Speech and action complement thought. Acting in the real world in a way that corresponds with your thinking adds another level of reality to the whole thing. Thought is not always enough.

[puebloknot]

66. My point exactly! nt

[renate]

69. I think that's the difference between the "fundamentalist" kind of thinking...

...that puebloknot mentioned about the positive-thinking and a more reality-based--yet positive--way of living one's life. Hoping for positive things or looking on the bright side isn't quite enough--the next step is to move forward with the confidence that what one wants is on its way, and behaving and thinking as if it is already so.

I wouldn't dream of saying that this always works, at least not so far, for me. My life hasn't turned into a perfect fairy tale since I learned this--not everything I've wanted has come true, at least not at the time I wanted it (hello, 2004 election, I'm talking about you)--but on a personal level, I really have seen a huge difference in all aspects of my life. All of them.

I love puebloknot's idea of a discussion group. I didn't even know there was a prayer circle group on DU till I went looking for something along those lines just now:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=237

but it doesn't seem to see a lot of action. Too bad... there are such fantastic, loving, compassionate people on DU and I wonder if maybe I wasn't alone in not being aware of this group.

(I do realize that a visualization/positive thinking group is a little different from a prayer group; this is a pretty sweeping overgeneralization, but it seems that sometimes prayer comes from hoping that something will or won't happen, whereas the focus of positive thinking or visualization tends to be on feeling gratitude in advance for the good things that are coming. Seemingly a tiny difference in approach, but a key one. Anyway, I love the idea of a discussion group oriented towards Law of Attraction-type stuff.)

[vanlassie]

64. The Secret is Cool

I just watched the 20 min version on Youtube...

And if you want to take a Weekend course about this, one that is excellent is called "More To Life."

Thanks for the tip.

vanlassie

[Celebration]

76. Astrology, spirituality and alternative healing

IS the DU group for all this.

(and I know nothing about astrology)

[puebloknot]

83. Good question. See my post: "The Universe Works that Way" below. nt

[Mythsaje]

89. The very notion that the observer affects the observed

blows a lot of the old science out the window. What good is "empirical" evidence, and peer studies, if just by assuming an answer before you start, you're affecting the outcome?

I've wondered about this a lot.

And, no, just THINKING positively isn't ever enough. That affects YOU, first and foremost. Your inner dialogue has a lot to do with how you interact with the rest of the world. Which has an effect on other people. Which returns to you in negative or positive energy. And that's even before you open your mouth. If you speak evil, you will hear evil. If you act with callous disregard for other people, you will be treated similarly. And all of this is WITHOUT even considering the power of thought beyond the most obvious, material concepts.

If you add the rest of it to the equation, it becomes all the more important to act consciously and willfully, realizing the consequences of your actions and attitudes on yourself and the world with which you interact.

I've handled fundies. Materialists are amateur assholes in comparison. ;)

[Deja Q]

8. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:applause: :yourock:

[ClayZ]

9. Whooooot!

Happy New Year! (and thanks!)

[lostnotforgotten]

10. So If We're Magical Why Do We Have To Live In Bush's Hell?

eom

[LaurenG]

11. We need more people start thinking about what they want

to come about.

You can plan your own life much more easily than the direction of the entire country. For that we'll need a mass change of consciousness. It's on it's way but it does take a while. Keep thinking about what you'd like to see happen.

[lostnotforgotten]

13. Sounds Like Praying To Me - I Will Not Enter Fundie Hell!

eom

[LaurenG]

18. Do you know how to plan for the future?

It's the same thing on a bigger scale. I resent your implication that having a positive outlook is "fundie hell". I've been to fundie hell and this is nothing like it.

Too bad your mind is so closed.

[lostnotforgotten]

26. Mind's Not Closed, Just Don't Believe In Prayer Because There Is No God

From what I can tell.

[LaurenG]

28. OK but this is about belief in

your own thinking and the ability to plan for your life. It's simple, you take a concept, something you'd like to see happen, visualize it and fill in as much detail as possible. Change details around as needed and plan to follow that course.

If you want to graduate from college you have to plan to show up and take the tests and pay the fees. It's the same principle on a grander scale.

It's rather mundane really but it works. Athletes use this all the time. It's not a guarantee but it's a plan to be successful and puts our minds into an expectant mode.

[Mythsaje]

31. Consciousness is God...

Or the closest to it we can find. The universe is a constant state of creation, and how we PERCEIVE it affects it on the sub-atomic level. That's the lesson we're getting from quantum physics. Not only that, but negativity affects our bodies and our brain chemistry in startling and significant ways. If we seek out reasons to feel hopeless, our brain produces peptides that feed that hopelessness to our very cells, which, in time, alter their very shape and design to feed more on that hopelessness than the things they're MEANT to feed on. Receptors are replaced...receptors that would ordinarily be used to receive things our bodies need.

It would seem that the mystics may have been more correct all along than science realized. Until now.

[northofdenali]

78. "Stranger in a Strange Land"

"thou art god" - I caught this fever at 15 and haven't medicated it since. You've put into words what I think. Thank you.

[renie408]

17. It's not fundie hell, it's actually science.

Google 'quantam physics'. If you can understand half of it, you are doing better than me, but it will absolutely blow your mind. It seems that the basic particles that make up...well, EVERYTHING...react differently depending on the observer. They finally figured out that the difference IS the observer. So, the observers are influencing the particles. At least, I think that's how it works.

And you start ANY mass change with the man in the mirror. Then with the person sitting next to you. If you want universal hope, you have to live it.

[Delphinus]

22. Yes,

and Gregg Braden (and possibly some others) have stated it takes only one-half of one percent of the world's population to effect change. That's not really a lot of people. I *know* we can do it!

[renie408]

25. YEE HAW!! I'm in!! n/t

[lostnotforgotten]

27. I Invested 1,000 Hours Of My Life In The Martin Frost Congressional Race

In 2004 just to watch the ES&S voting machines flip the votes in Dallas county to Republicans.

The Democrats did nothing, the machines are still in service.

I will never invest 1,000 hours of my life for political causes again when the election system is so obviously rigged.

[truedelphi]

62. Oh lost - please hang in there

Take a break if you need to - but believe me, those machines are gonna go.

I got depressed July 7th (THe day Stephenson died - Andy being like the third activist on the voting issue to die REAL FAST of an illness he did not even have before the 2004 election)

The voting issue is gonna turn around, and when it does, it will be because of people like you whose heart was broken along the way.

[seabeyond]

29. If you want universal hope, you have to live it.

i believe... hence my post above. it spreads out and becomes a collective conscience. hence what got us here in the first place. after 911 fear, anger, venegeance gripped the nation and spread instead of the uniting of the world that was a possibility and oportunity

[truedelphi]

61. Because

The culture is so corrupted - I mean even the idea that you have to go to school for endless years just to be considered "okay" as a job prospect

Money is so determining a factor - so much so that as a child of the sixties I am blown away by the importance it holds. The Nation of Bohemia - where you could be free to your beliefs and do nothing but play the guitar if that is what you wanted - that is now so elusive (OF course, for Baby Boomers who will inherit a lot of moolah real soon - there will be a lot of off key guitar plunking I suppose)

Joy is not supported very often by very many. The word "joy" has been replaced by the word "buy"

On the plus side, the internet has opened up a great deal of shared expression. And of course one of the side effects is us getting to enjoy and relate to one another

[cwydro]

12. yes

kick.

[deutsey]

14. Don't mourn, organize

If we knew our history better, we'd know no progress has ever been made by sitting around and sulking about how bad everything is.

[renie408]

15. I LOVE YOU, MAN!!

And YES, that would also be why I took a break from this place and basically from the 'real' world for awhile. The harping and sniping and negativity had me FUH-REAKING out. I learned to bake bread from scratch. It was cathartic.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Got something for you

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/122806A.shtml

P.S. Breaks are good.

[renie408]

19. Do you know what image I most strongly associate with 9/11?

It was a few minutes of film showing thousands of dirty and bedraggled New Yorkers filing silently across the Brooklyn Bridge. They looked dazed and depressed, but they were all moving along in an orderly fashion. There were people holding hands and people helping other people walk along. I dunno, it always struck me as showing how GOOD people are. If I think about it, I can call up the more horrific images, but whenever I hear '9/11', that is what pops into my head.

[Mythsaje]

32. That's the second time I read that one...

It was definitely worth a second read.

[puebloknot]

67. ...limitless possibility and potential that is humanity's astonishing birthright ...

Yes. And it's there whether we think of it as God, or the Quantum Field, or the Force. It's there if we don't think about any of these things, at all, but just have a driving personal vision which informs our actions in the world.

Beautiful and inspiring article, William Rivers Pitt!

[cyberpj]

84. "You are stronger than history, if you choose to be so."

So say we all.

[cassiepriam]

20. Time for the feel good mentality is over. Time to face reality.

And it is not a pretty one.

And it is time for Americans to feel some shame, guilt and anger. We are a stupid and morally bankrupt country,
time to feel the pain of what we have done amd what we have become.

[seabeyond]

30. i can feel good mentally and face reality. shame guilt and anger doesn't heal

only exasperates the problem. people will do everything in their power to ignore truth if they think they are going to have to feel guilt and shame, and humble themselves. i dont need or look for that for people to progress to truth and become aware. i prefer a more gentle and loving way to awareness. the right and christian coalition use this art of guilt and shame for good. that in and of itself should let us know it isn't the way.

and what we have become as a country is not who i am as an individual, so it will not be my pain to experience, i can already see. it is there for those that cannot see.... and i am hoping those of us that are beyond this will be able to help the others along.

hence the difference for change thru all the negative you suggest and a different approach to change where we all win. i think win win win is a more positive approach

[cassiepriam]

36. Without guilt and pain we are like the sociopaths in power.

And unless we face the truth we will learn nothing.

[seabeyond]

38. without love we are like sociopaths. i dont believe it is about guilt

i think we use it the same as a spanking. out of fear a child will not learn we resort to spanking, pain, fear to control. we do the same with guilt. i have found that is not the lasting and productive way to a happy ending. i suggest love will strongly out weigh the benefit in good coming ot us than guilt and pain. not a believer in pain. i feel it simply causes pain. i dont see the plus. i think love is way more effective

[cassiepriam]

41. People do not change unless they feel some discomfort.

Love is good and well, but unless Americans
can feel bad about what they have done, nothing will change.

[seabeyond]

49. not true. simply not true. the opposite. i was an athlete. you hear

no pain, no gain. back in my day. we would chant it. not true. as a matter of fact more chance for success if fitness is done without pain, the gain is massive and chance of continuing greater ergo,... success.

i grew up without having to be punished by parent. i spent three decades punishing self beyond what parents could ever do and thankfully i had parents that recognized this. it was once i let go of the self punishment that self destructions faded. it was not beating me up that kept me on the right track, though i thought it would. it was loving and accepting all of who i am in love, in my imperfection that i walked away from the destructive, that healed me.

the fundamentalist has a tough time walking the path of lite. why? firstly they have so many damn rules there is no way they can be that perfect, and every misstep is self flogging that makes it worse, but.... having been in it and watching for a handful of years i learned,.... from the youngest of age, 4, they would start the chant we are all sinners. decades of telling self you are sinner, you must become sinner to prove self right. what ego does. what if, they chanted we are all lite.... purity, peace love.... then that is what they would become. psychology 101. their guilt does not help them to be better, though they are the one professing guilt is what will make them a better person. it is the opposite.

for clarification,.... love is not lyng to self or anywhere else. it is not love if lying to self. (and that is the most important and destructive.) love is being able to speak truth and still love self. so love is not allowing people to get away with things, or not recognize truth.

[cassiepriam]

54. It would appear that America is awash in self love.

Some might call it narcissism.

Parent love is much different than the kind of work that needs to be done in this country, full of people who have lost their way intellectually and morally.

[Mythsaje]

55. Live willfully

understanding the consequences of your decisions and taking responsibility for your mistakes. That's what we're not doing.

[cassiepriam]

57. Yes but that takes strength, maturity,and wisdom. Not a lot of that in supply these days.

And usually means some pain in admitting mistakes, and trying to correct the errors.

[Mythsaje]

59. I'd say there's an awful lot of us here who are aware...

It's in larger supply than you see in the mainstream media, at least.

[cassiepriam]

71. Yes I agree. But we still have a long way to go. It is going to take

much hard work to clean up after Bush.

[seabeyond]

60. if you think what i am speaking of is narcissist, in self love

you are ignoring much all of what i am saying. so am i to take responsibility that your interpretation is lazy, or just not wanting to hear what i am saying out of personal agenda, or just a matter that thru your experiences in life you simply cannot fathom what i am saying, not that i am wrong, but in your view, and lack of understanding thru experience cannot possibly see what i see? of course i will not take responsibility for that. what i will do is understand that for whatever reason you chose, you reject what i offer, as you have the right to do.

this is basically an example of exactly what i am talking about.

you asked below, do you not feel the pain of the girl raped and murdered, or the soldiers that lose a limb or life.... all of that and more. i even feel the soldier that raped, those that cheered the execution of saddam, i even feel saddam.

we all have to take responsibility for our action. we create. what we do, we create. the repercussion that comes to those that chose to rape, whatever the reasoning for the rape, is their reality, and theirs to live. be it prison for life or death.

no where in my words do i ever take away a persons responsibility in something. further, i stress taking that responsibility. that is the only way to healing.

no, i do not take on the responsibility of someone else's actions. that would be unhealthy, unproductive, and in no way do i have control. i can only be responsible for myself, and my action and that i take very seriously. i teach my children the same. and in this we feed our world a positive.

i welcome the demise of our power as a nation. we have earned it. that is me ultimately taking responsibility for us as a whole, or a collective unit. i dont do it in shame or guilt, i do do it in knowing that is what we create as a nation. and so what. we are shamed. we are powerless. we are a laughing stock. since none of this hurts me, i can see that even if we have to start all over, even if rightly so we have lost all that we are, i know there will be opportunity for us to create. to become a better people. to learn. to create a stronger foundation of who we want to be, and what we do not want to be.

i never shy away from responsibility. i dont allow anyone around me to either. whether they accept it or not has nothing to do with me. it is beyond my powers to force it on another. it is their to accept or deny.

[Mythsaje]

34. And shame and guilt accomplish what, exactly?

They are in themselves destructive to life and the human body. Guilt is a reminder "don't do this again." We were never meant to wallow in it. Acknowledge mistakes and resolve to do better. This is the lesson we need to learn from the past.

And many of us have. As terrible as some of the things done in our name, history is full of terrible things--many at least as terrible as these, if not many times worse. A lot of us are wise enough to decry these acts, and work towards a world where everyone will do so.

Dragging guilt and shame along with us like an albatross tied around our neck isn't going to make anything any better.

[cassiepriam]

35. The first step to any healing is facing reality, facing the pain.

There can be no healing until the truth is faced.
And the mistakes are admitted.

Without guilt and shame we are like the sociopaths in power.

[seabeyond]

37. one doesnt need guilt to come to truth. my children make a mistake

i dont allow them to feel guilt, realization mistake was made and an ability to correct mistake. i dont even believe forgiveness is necessary, though some still need that to love self. i can go beyond that. no, .... i have found the best way to parent my children is not thru guilt, but love. if it is good enough for my childen, i have to figure it is for everyone else, too.

[cassiepriam]

40. Actually if you look at the extensive psych literature

on the subject like I have, you would know that guilt
plays a critical role in positive character formation.

And there are major problems with the way parents deal with their children in this day and age, hence the rise
in conduct disorders and soicopathy. A whole generation of people who see nothing wrong with torturing, raping and murdering Iraqis.

Until we can start feeling bad about what we have done as a nation, nothing will change.

A basic rule of therapy: people do not change unless they feel discomfort.

I have spent over 30 years studying this topic. If you have literature or clinical experience to the contrary I would love to see it.

[Mythsaje]

43. Feeling guilt for things we are not ourselves responsible for

is counterproductive.

And as far as it goes, SOME of the psycho-theory in this country has contributed to the problem rather than alleviating it. Our bodies restructure themselves based on the input our minds provide--all the way to the cellular level. If we feed our bodies crap, they get used to eating crap. And I'm not talking about food. I'm talking about emotions, attitudes, and perceptions. Our bodies remake themselves to suit our mental outlook.

If people learned how to live willfully, aware of the consequences of the choices they make, it would be a better thing. Guilt, in this context, is just a red light that flashes when we're about to do something we know we shouldn't. It's in no way helpful to anyone to addict our cells to the peptides it produces.

[cassiepriam]

52. I am curious, do you read about the little girl our troops raped and murdered

and feel no pain, no shame?

Or the injured US troops, missing limbs?
Or the dead troops?
Or the half million Iraqis we have killed?

No pain, no shame, no guilt, no bad feelings at all?

And you feel no responsibility for the atrocities which have
been committed in our name, and paid for with our tax dollars?

I guess in some ways I wish I could be like that, take no responsibility and
feel no pain at any of the horrors this country has committed.

And PS I agree that ed/psych community has contributed to the feel good
culture, where we can never be uncomfortable. And it is always somebody
else's fault and responsibility.

I do believe in feeling hope and feeling positive, but first we must face
reality. We must face the horrors of what we have done.

[Mythsaje]

53. I didn't do it...

Nor did I in any way support the decision and policy that made it possible.

I feel disgusted, sure, but why in the hell should I feel shame for something in which I had no say whatsoever? Or guilt, for that matter?

On edit: I certainly don't like the fact that this was done in my name...but I opposed it quite vocally from the beginning. I'm not going to take responsibility for the fact that I KNEW it was a bad idea and it's turned out to be just as bad as I expected it to be.

[cassiepriam]

56. The world did not buy that the German people were innocent,

and they will not believe that we are innocent either.

Just like all Germans were tarred with the Hitler brush,
Americans will be tainted by Bush and Iraq.
Like it or not.

And disgust is good, it is an appropriate response.
It is a good beginning.

[Mythsaje]

58. To a certain extent, sure...

But that doesn't mean we have to accept the taint and make it our own.

[cassiepriam]

72. I have a theory.

That Bush did not come to power by accident.
That to a large extent he is a reflection of the American condition.

A man with limited abilities, a very checkered past, a history of failure.
And he was able to steal the country.
He did not do it alone, he had much help from many sectors.

Says something about the country, any way you slice it.

[puebloknot]

68. I have used this same analogy, but...

...we Americans are in the same boat with the "Good Germans" (and there were many) who wanted to make change but were faced with the overwhelming force of a government gone crazy.

We can try to oust them through the ballot box, and when that doesn't work out, what is left? It comes down to a personal decision about whether sacrificng one's life will have any impact on the overall picture. In many ways, we are doing what the Germans did: We are trying to stay alive and we are waiting for this nightmare to pass.

Modern Germany has a zero tolerance policy, these days, for the kind of fascism that took over their country 60 years ago. And now we, the "lesson givers" at Nuremberg, find ourselves down the rabbit hole that we so decried back then.

I agree that we as a nation have to atone for our collective guilt, but as individuals, it serves little purpose -- and in fact can be debilitating -- to wear a hair shirt and "mea culpa" our lives into meaninglessness.

I know where I stand on the Iraq war. I did not have a personal say in the decision. I am outraged and depressed over the downward spiral of our country. I have to realize that I don't have the personal power, alone, to change world events. Rather than engaging in grandiose thinking, I have to do, in my small way, what the 60s antiwar people advocated: "Keep hope alive."

Many people in the "positivity" movement counsel focusing very strongly on what we *do* want, and eschew even a whisper of what we *don't* want. In many cases, that takes on the tone of a small child peering out between their fingers at a scary monster.

I think we have to take the very appropriate disgust we feel over Bush and Iraq and do what we *can* without getting caught in the passivity that often comes with a decision to stand only for the good (with emphasis on "stand" as opposed to "move") and not taint ourselves with the evil in the world.

I absolutely agree with your stated position. I'm just wandering around in my own head about what can be done, individually and collectively!

[cassiepriam]

70. But good Germans have been dumped into the collective pot

of all Germans who were seen as doing nothing
while a madman killed innocents.

And I am talking about productive soul searching for the purpose
of growth and attaining wisdom. We need to feel the anger, disgust,
shame as part of that process of growth.

I know it is not popular to feel uncomfortable, but feel it we must
before we can move forward.

And it takes courage to face our own
inner demons. Bush to a large extent is only a reflection of the American
condition. He did not come to power by accident.

[puebloknot]

82. I've written about this frequently over the last six years.

The Germans and the Japanese have had the quality of their questioned because they "let it happen."

And now we face that same conundrum. Yes, American has a lot 'splainin' to do. Yes, Bush is a reflection of where America is now.

I just don't think it helps for us all to get lost in guilt and not take action.

What that action is....I wish I knew. Impeachment sure as hell comes to mind!

[cassiepriam]

96. I am not talking about getting lost,,,

I am suggesting that before taking action
many Americans are going to have to take stock first.
Begin to see what we have become, what we have done,
feel the appropriate shame and guilt, and then fix it.

It is the path of any human being seeking to
repair a wrong.

Americans have had their head in the sand and want to sweep
it all away. I think if they really faced the truth the answers
would come to them.

And yes I think impeachment is going to be one way to heal,
and send a message to the world that Americans do not condone
what BushCo has done.

[puebloknot]

98. I have to say, like the OP said, "I didn't do it."

Yes, we have to take stock of our collective national character.

I just don't intend to speak out to try to make change, not "mea culpa" my life away. That's all!

[puebloknot]

106. I have a question or two for you:

What could each individual German citizen have done to stop Hitler? Would throwing themselves in front of his Jeep have done it?

It doesn't require "psyche" credentials to see that our country has gotten off the path. Yes, we have to face that, as a nation, to redeem ourselves before the world and get our democracy back. The German people have pretty much accomplished that, it would seem. They nip in the bud any fascist tendency. They aren't interested in spending their national energy on war. They can sing John Lennon's song: "We have learned, we have learned." We can't; not yet. It took Germany many years to recover, after Hitler.

Now, do you think it would help this country for each of us, impotent as we feel to effect change right now, to give up the joy of the rising sun each day in order to try to make recompense for our national character? Would that have *any* practical effect?

I submit to you that I can enjoy the sun, moon, and stars, my dogs, my daughter, my books, my extreme privilege to be living in a safe place, and *at the same time* I can work toward removing the criminals that have taken over our government.

While you have been studying psychology over the last 30 years, I have been pondering the seemingly hopeless task of bringing fundamentalist Christians out of their darkness and into light. I have *personal* experience with those people, and I can tell you that I am not personally responsible for the effect that their philosophy has had on this, my beloved country.

If we want to look a collective guilt, let's consider the hologram. We are each a small part of the whole; what we do affects the whole tapestry. We can talk in ivory-tower terms about the guilt of the whole nation, but we as individuals cannot atone for it all. We can take *positive* steps in our daily lives to make a difference, and we can only hope that that will radiate out to the whole.

A basic rule of therapy that I learned from an excellent therapist years ago: Wallowing in guilt is not healthy for children and other living things. Now, if that guilt causes change, the individual can change. Changing a whole nation is much, much more complicated. Try getting the millions on the couch at the same time.

It's 2007, there's a whole new year in front of us to try to get changes made, and.....I FEEL GOOD!

[Gregorian]

21. I'll be optimistic when we're all pulling together.

Right now the country sounds like a band with several instruments out of tune. Not worth listening to. Not enjoyable. Coming here, regardless of the attitude, gives me optimism. I can have optimism and not be happy.

There was a time when I was optimistic. Before I knew better. And when I withdraw from the world, I am optimistic. It's when I try to focus on making things better, and all I get is dull eyed looks from Fox news enthusiasts, that I want to just throw my hands in the air and give up.

We come here to solve problems. That's what this forum is, for me. It has nothing to do with whether I'm smiling or frowning.

[suziedemocrat]

23. That gets to me too! Post a hopeful story about the environment ...

people don't want to hear it. For instance - the story below is hopeful. Of course things are really bad now, but we can't JUST focus on the negative, good things are happening too. If we get too negative we'll feel like giving up.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s03-sten.html

Algae - like a breath mint for smokestacks
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
BOSTON –
...
Bolted onto the exhaust stacks of a brick-and-glass 20-megawatt power plant behind MIT's campus are rows of fat, clear tubes, each with green algae soup simmering inside.

Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40 percent less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86 percent less nitrous oxide.

After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials - one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation.

Being a good Samaritan on air quality usually costs a bundle. But Berzin's pitch is one hard-nosed utility executives and climate-change skeptics might like: It can make a tidy profit.

...

[eileen_d]

39. My sig. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

42. Nope. Nor do I care. Especially after the quantum-mechanics -alleges-magic idiocy.

[Mythsaje]

44. Hell, it's your reality...

Live it the way you want.

:evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

48. "Perception Is Reality"

:rofl:

I rather doubt there's ever been a more abused, misunderstood, and perverted maxim.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

45. Couldn't have said it better! K@R

I get sooooo tired of the negative nabobs.

[treestar]

47. Well, I guess reality can be negative at times

But we have to deal with both the negative and the positive in life. Putting one's head in the sand is for Bushco.

[dogday]

50. K & R For Positive Vibes nt

[closeupready]

51. Thank you. I said almost the exact same thing last week.

Not as well as you did, though. :)

[enigmatic]

73. Great post.

I'm about ready for a break, too.

[xultar]

74. THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

[hunter]

75. I like dark beer and red wine.

Lite beer isn't even worth drinking, I'd rather have cheap burgundy from a box.

There's a kind of negativism that puts on a mask of positivism, and your post is it.

"... go out with a fucking bang?????" Well, okay, if you want to.... Can I watch? (From a safe distance of course.) I love to watch people who use quantum physics to justify their own magical thinking self-destruct. That's what kind of negative son of a bitch I am. One less of you fucking bangers makes the world a slightly better place!

:hide:

You see, there is a kind of positive thinking that makes people do positive things, and there is a kind of positive thinking that is simply a justification for inaction.

The universe doesn't love me, the universe doesn't even distinguish between me and any other pattern of energy. As a pattern of energy I share equal billing with any other pattern of energy -- there are rocks my size floating through space that will last far longer and have more consequence in this universe than I ever have. Everything in the universe is animate, and there is nothing that distinguishes patterns modulated by human thought from patterns modulated by life or anything else; it's all one pattern we are all a part of. Reality does not bend itself around consciousness, consciousness is a pattern in the reality.

If I was a positive person I would seek something in your post to be positive about, something about your observation that I could compliment you for, but I can't. I think much of the negativity you are responding to here on DU is in your own heart. You shed that, and the negativity here will roll off you except where you can use it to feed your own positive action. If you know about something rotten you can act to clean it up.

Any hopelessness you feel is the hopelessness of the United States. The society we have built is not sustainable. We will have to build a new sort of society that is sustainable, and that's an exciting and very positive thing. But to do that we will first have to put on our hip waders and plunge into the rot, seeking to remove the blockages that caused the mess.

[Mythsaje]

87. Go ahead and feel free to decry my "magical thinking"

the same magical thinking that is seeing my writing career take off even in the face of all the people telling me all my life to "be realistic" and that it would never happen.

And I'll join the ranks of every other successful person who's heard the same thing and refused to buy into the bullshit. Which is damn near every one of them.

If you build it in your mind, speak in with your voice, and follow it with your actions, it can happen. It DOES happen.

If you sit on your ass and say "it'll never happen," guess what. You'll be right.

Magical thinking? Perhaps. But as true as anything has ever been.

[greyl]

94. Great post. nt

[northofdenali]

77. On a positive, happy, and downright BEAUTIFUL note -

:hi:
The Great Fairbanks Fireworks New Years Eve Show tonight!

C'mon up and join us! We're tailgating (who gives a shit if it's 10 below - warm for this time of year, anyway) - and since we can't fireworks on the 4th of July (too much daylight...) we do it BIG for New Year's Eve.

If y'all can't make it this year, plan for next year - I'll treat to the Chena Hot Springs outdoor pool and northern lights for any DU'er who visits!!

Happy New Year, Mythsage - your writing is beautiful, and even with the negativity, DU is worth it. :loveya::hug::loveya:

Oh, yeah - K&R

Fireworks at UAF Westridge:

Fireworks as usual in Fairbanks:

[troubleinwinter]

79. WTF?

I read your post that you were 'taking a break' because you were busy with a temporary job and writing the new book.

Then another post days later saying pretty much the same thing.

Now there is a whole new reason?! Now it isn't your job and book, but that DUers have "too much focus" that you don't care for and you are "tired of hearing " and "sick of" "harping"?

Which is it?

This is your third "I'm taking a break" thread you've started that I have read. So why not take a fucking break already?

[Mythsaje]

85. I didn't post for a week...

Though I've been keeping up with what's going on.

I just saw a lot of negative when I signed on last night and thought, maybe I CAN say something here at this point in time.

So I did.

I've got a lot of positive thoughts about this next year, personally, and I don't want to see a place with such great spirit drag itself down into the grinding wheel at the same time. So I spoke up.

I HAVE been working on my book, and my game. And didn't really intend to post much, if at all, until I reached some sort of self-imposed line. But there are times when you re-evaluate your intentions and think "well, maybe."

That's what this post was about.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

80. Interesting. You know why *I* decided to take a break from DU?

All the fucking irrational, woo-woo, faith-based group-think gets to me after a while. Too much focus on prayer, angels, writers who are "on our side" and not enough skepticism. Too many times the people respond to "think positively!" comments with an "amen!" and not with a "but that's not true".

In case you missed it, that's a parody of the opening paragraph of your OP, substituting my sentiment.

FWIW, "What the bleep do we know?" is a crock of poo. It is not scientific. It wouldn't know Quantum Theory from Homeopathy. Apparently, neither do you. It's not "magical thinking" :eyes: "What the bleep..." was produced by J.Z. Knight, who believes that she is the reincarnated spirit of a 35,000-year-old warrior named "Ramtha". She's the blond woman who features in it and "channels" "Ramtha" (I'm running out of "air-quotes") while spouting Hollywood's version of Elizabethan English in a guttural, husky voice. See earlier Doonesbury cartoons with Boopsie channeling an ancient warrior named "Hunk-Ra" (when she wants to)... that's based on Knight.

As Louis Black might say: she's "DELUUUUUUSIONAL". As you did say: "Chew on that".

I assume that your post was meant to be a rallying-cry for positivism. Sadly. it is based on watching a propaganda movie from a cult. My post is meant to be a small flag for realism.

So think realistically. The universe works that way.

/Edited for typos.

[puebloknot]

81. "The universe works that way."

There's a long and honorable scientific tradition that has devoted itself to figuring out *exactly* how the universe works, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that it's an ongoing effort, and yesterday's truth is today's heresy.

Posting in a thread like this, as I have done, can get you labeled as a tinfoil hat nut case. I'm a very mainstream person, yet I've had many "nonlocal" experiences which for a long time were confined to the realm of magical thinking by the scientific community, and possibly chalked up to mental illness. Good scientific minds are now focused on explaining how these things can come about squarely in the realm of *rationality*. As ever, the old guard will spew venom and decry the loss of quality in a new generation of minds. And the beat goes on.

I have had an interest in the question (*question*, I said) of how much and whether mind affects outer reality for a very long time. I've had some unsought "woo woo" experiences that I struggle to understand. Some of these experiences occurred when I was dating, and in some instances in the presence of, a quantum physicist.

Said physicist is retired, but back in the day, I saw his liquor bill increase exponentially every time he gave thought to some of the things he observed with his own eyes, but which did not fit the paradigm in which he was steeped when getting his Ph.D.

In spite of my years-long inquiry into what might be called "alternate" realities," I am *very* turned off by glassy-eyed positive thinkers who can't face the realities of life, and attempt to withdraw from social involvement. The negative is the other side of the mirror, and trying to live in some fairyland where our thoughts manifest into everything our hearts desire is juvenile. Living an inspired life, fueled by the marvels of our universe, leading to action in our own self-interest, is the mark of a mature person, I think. I find no difficulty in acknowledging that there is some power, some spark of genius beyond myself that informs my life in ways that I do not completely understand. I savor mystery and am mistrustful of people who are too certain of their own views.

Over time, I've grown tired of the instant skepticism that pops up from those who would be rational when a conversation like this starts. I grew up with the kind of Christian fundamentalism that is driving our country into the ground at this time, and I don't cotton to *any* faith-based creed. I just have an inquiring mind. My mantra is "Never settle." What seems reasonable today may not tomorrow.

There's a great deal we humans have to learn about our odyssey on this Earth. The physicists have learned a lot, but they've been described as the "priests of the 20th Century" (and now the 21st). I think we have to weigh their opinions with a certain skepticism, also. Yesterday's "law of nature" yields to today's revised version of what is real. That's good science.

I find it fascinating to read all of the "physics for the layman" books that are on the market these days. I always read them with full knowledge that I do not necessarily have the tools to make a critical assessment of the science involved. To some extent, I have to take the content "on faith" as I'm reading (but not necessarily in perpetuity). And I'm weighing my own experience against what they have to say as I read.

I also know that there are many reports of rock-hard scientific discoveries being made through the irrationality of a dream. The discovery of the benzene ring is said to fit into that category. There are others that I can't quote at this writing.

My greatest concern about us all is that too many of us seem to need a definite path to follow in order to feel like good people. It's much harder to live an open-ended life, weighing experience as we go. I would submit that rational thinkers and positive thinkers have the same challenge -- not to get stuck in a given paradigm. Scientists, alas, have to stick with the consensus of their community if they want publication, promotions, and invitations to all the good department dinner parties. Positive thinkers are free to be as loony as they wish, and some of them can even make money at it. It does not follow that anyone who chooses to explore material not approved by "the academy" is a dim bulb, however.

I've been on the planet for a time, and I've come to the point where I'm not willing to keep my own counsel about the compelling multi-sensory experiences I have had. Just as I feel its a good thing to discuss our political future with others, I find it interesting to discuss topics that lie outside the mainstream of "rational" thought. A point could well be made, I do acknowledge, that DU was formed to talk about politics, and a conversation like this one does not belong here. I could even support that position, frankly. I just jumped into this one in the middle of the night because there are things about the post that caught my eye, and I have come to like the writer!

Ridiculing another's journey through this life serves no good end. Contributing rational input into what may seem to some to be an irrational conversation might do some good. Unfortunately, I'm forced to acknowledge, there's too often a polarization that makes honest dialog impossible! Going back to Texas and talking New Age Physics and/or Democratic politics with my fundamentalist Christian family would be a fool's mission.

I'll end with a lyric from a Willie Nelson song: "What a wonderful world!" (I don't believe that on a constant basis, as I'm reading about the latest outrage from Bushco, or trying to throw off the image of a hanging. But I try to keep taking myself back to that thought as a way of trying to enjoy this life of mine, while still I have it. And it makes it nicer for my daughter to have a mother who is not lost in depression and fear over the future of the country, her future and that of the children she may someday have. We might as well laugh; we might as well hope.)

Positively yours, :)

Judy Barrett
Santa Fe, New Mexico **

** Tinfoilhatsville

[Mythsaje]

88. I live astride two worlds...

I'm married to a witch, yet I believe primarily in science. But, then again, I've seen things that garden-variety Newtonian and Einsteinian physics CANNOT explain. I've stood in the center of a circle cast and felt the outside world slip away. I've had glimpses of future events and then watched them transpire exactly how I've seen them. I've seen my faith in myself and my skills bring me to the verge of seeing all my dreams come true.

I maintain that the world is a FAR more complex and mysterious place than the materialists can ever realize.

And I truly believe that consciousness IS the point of it all. When I had that revelation it was like a bolt from the blue. That was exactly the single phrase I had been searching for.

I think it's the non-magical thinkers, the ones who don't truly grasp the interconnectedness of it all, who've got us into these straits in the first place. "Kill the heathen savages with all their talk of the 'Great Spirit' and all the little spirits keeping us alive."

Yeah, well. :shrug: See what THAT'S gotten us.

[puebloknot]

90. Yes, I know.

I did not set out to embrace the unseen. It embraced me.

Yes, I think that scientific materialism *has* gotten us into a mess, even though it has given us medical miracles and the practical things of our lives that make us comfortable. I am heartened that there *are* scientists (and I won't even say "a new breed" as if it's just a younger generation I'm referring to; Fred Alan Wolf is no spring chicken) who understand the role of consciousness in shaping reality. For me, the work of these "new" physicists gives a foundation to the experiences I've been having for years. I never thought for a moment that I was crazy, mentally/emotionally unbalanced, but for years I had no one to discuss it all with -- except for a physicist boyfriend who didn't mind talking about it in the dead of night, when he was in his cups, but not in the bright light of day. Suddenly he was a changed man, once the sun came up. :)

It took me some time to find my voice in this regard, and now I look back and see how very frightened that man was to look at anything outside his narrow "reality." He didn't want to give up a career he'd worked hard for to associate with the "lunatic fringe" (that would be me, some days). Now that fringe is being seriously looked at by the scientific community.

I will say that I don't think the way forward for us on this planet is to try to go back in time, and live the way aboriginal peoples lived. I think we have to apply the philosopies of native peoples, other cultures, with regard to learning to live more in harmony with the natural world, rather than raping and pillaging it and expecting no consequences. But I love bookstores and the Internet and my dishwasher. I could give them all up if I had to, however.

I see a lot of people here in New Mexico who are wannabe "Indians." It annoyes the locals, but they do accept people who show a genuine interest (not a prurient interest) in their culture and belifs.


I'm writing this immediately after just having heard Alice Walker speak on television. I'm anxious to get her latest book entitled "We are the Ones we have been Waiting for."

Just prior to Alice coming on, Michael Crichton was speaking, and he was holding forth about how it is simply impossible to be able to predict the future. We cannot see one moment into the future, he said definitively. Now he's a big name about town, and I'm nobody. But I can tell you, definitively, that he's dead wrong. I've done it; friends have done it.

As skeptics are quick to point out, I can't know absolutely that a future vision is going to come true, or exactly when. "So what's the point?" they ask. The point is that it's part of the human condition, and denying that it exists is not a way to come to understand it.

Here we are, one hour and 36 minutes into the new year here in New Mexico, and I'm looking forward to all the moving and shaking we can manage in 2007! :) Fun talking with you!

Judy

[Mythsaje]

91. Crichton is so wrong it's almost funny...

Seeing less than a minute into the future has saved my life more than once. Just a glimpse, but that was all I needed.

Sure, the future isn't set, but ANYONE can see into the future if they can grasp the variables and the pattern unfolding in front of them. Throw a big rock into the air above your head, stand under its fall, and if you can't predict a concussion, or imminent death, you're an idiot. LOL

And, no, it probably wouldn't do to emulate the aboriginal cultures...but try to grasp some of the things they understood, adapt them to our thinking these days? Maybe.

All my life I've grown up seeing weird things, things that didn't have "rational" explanations. And I don't really care if people think I'm on the fringe. I write fantasy for god's sake. Of COURSE I'm on the fringe.

But there are just so many little things we can do that make so much of a difference that few people ever both with because it's "too new agey" or whatever.

Scientists are barely cognizant of the questions to ask. They sure as hell don't have the answers yet.

[hunter]

95. My sanity is hard won.

I am a harsh skeptic by necessity, not by choice.

I've had "compelling multi-sensory experiences" that were, perhaps, positive experiences for myself, but maybe not so much for the people who love me.

Occasionally by some spark I can catch a dream and bring it to earth, but mostly it is madness. If I'm too intent upon these imaginations I am not sane.

[puebloknot]

99. I can't address your personal situation. I can only assert...

...that having "alternate reality" experiences does *not* constitute madness!

[hunter]

102. It never seems like madness to me when I'm at my very loopiest.

That's the hell of it, the damnedest things make some kind of sense, and I am especially good at rationalizing the weirdness.

I once went running without shoes in the middle of the night until my feet were bleeding. The nice policeman who stopped me looked me up and down and asked me if I knew my feet were bleeding.

I gave him a perfectly honest explanation: I forgot my shoes.

There seems to be a lot of people on this thread who forgot their shoes.

I do not think that all "alternate reality" experiences are madness -- a lot of these experiences do have some sort of meaning, perhaps even a quantum physical meaning. But the only people who are going to make anything of these meanings are people with the discipline to do the actual math. Separating the truth from the noise often takes some very serious brain sweat.

If you don't have the sort of discipline to put in that sort of brain sweat then you are simply passing the breeze. That can be fun, but that's all it is, a pleasant diversion of little consequence. If you take yourself too seriously, then you become every bit a silly ass as some rolled-over-backwards fart lighter like Michael Crichton.

I've little patience with those who are trying to saddle quantum physics with their own mythologies. Quantum physics is a very real science of practical use -- the computer you are reading this on could not be made without a keen understanding of quantum physics. But unless you are a Roger Penrose or a Stephen Hawking (and maybe not even them) quantum physics is not really something you can use to explain whatever weirdness is going on inside your head.

[puebloknot]

104. Begging your pardon, but you are trying to pull me into your...

...rather bizarre reality.

Your advice is noted, and I've consigned it to a round object, where it belongs. And do not assume that because you have weirdness going on in *your* head (you've convinced me that it is so) that others do, also.

A rather well-known and respected quantum physicist explained to a group of about 300 people that I was involved with recently that concepts of biology and quantum physics are not hard to grasp. You don't have to be a Ph.D. and/or be doing laboratory experiments to understand how certain scientific principles affect you and your life.

The Catholic Church held serious sway over the masses for a long time with their Latin Mass. You suggest that someone of my poor intellect just couldn't possibly understand the basic principles of Quantum Physics. Same deal. Sorry Charley, your days are numbered.

Let me end with this very practical observation: You can have an orgasm without having read and understood all the scientific research that has been done in the arena of human sexuality. At least *I* can. You? I don't know. If you can't even remember to put on your shoes when you go outdoors.....

I have a New Year's resolution I'll share with you: I'm going to spend a lot less of my time dealing with naysayers in 2007 than I've done in the past.

Cheers!

[hfojvt]

109. I have read some hokum though

which likes to use 'quantum physics' like it is some holy power word. I've taken senior level university classes in quantum physics as well as classical dynamics and it is very clear to me that they do not know what they are talking about.

It's one thing for a trained quantum physicist to explain that theory in simple terms. It is quite another thing for an untrained mystic guru to use physicist terminologies to add false legitimacy to his/her hokum.

So I really appreciate Hunter's contribution here. I also get tired of the 'positive thinking' ala Norman Vincent Peale which makes the primary focus of people be their own individual health and wealth rather than the health and wealth of society and the planet.

But I also appreciate the OP. Too much of what we do here IS negative - we hate Bush, we hate Republicans, we hate racists, we hate ignorance, we hate religion, we hate all other candidates for President ... and on and on. As we tear down, isn't there anything we can build? Otherwise, if global warming is going to kill us all no matter what we do, then might as well be a Republican and enjoy yourself as much as possible on the Titanic.

[puebloknot]

113. What "untrained mystic guru?"

If you're speaking of me, I'm not a guru. If you're alluding to the physicists who speak and write on this subject, they're not untrained. They, in fact, have doctorates in biology and physics. From major universities.

Know what? I get tired of some of the canned positive thinking, a la Peale, et al., too. You don't know me, so you don't know what kind of person I am. When stepping out of the closet and talking about certain unusual experiences, it's very easy to get lumped in with a whole lot of what you're not! (However, I just posted on the subject of UFO sightings, so read it and do with it what you will! :crazy: )

I think we have to consider not only what kind of physics experience people have who speak about these issues, but what kinds of spiritual/alternate reality experiences they have had. To make it a fair experiment, we'd have to be willing to at least listen, without prejudgment, to what experiencers have to say.

Taking advanced-level physics classes does not diminish or increase the likelihood of an ordinary person having (and understanding) an unusual experience. If you haven't been to Peoria....

[hfojvt]

115. as far as doctorates go

I remember an argument I had with my freshman roommate about "The Jupiter Effect" - a popular book at the time which I thought was a load of crap. He pointed out that the authors of that book had PhDs and I was a mere HS graduate.

So, even PhDs can produce hokum when they are not writing in peer-reviewed journals, and even those, at least in economics in my experience, can be suspect too.

The untrained guru I was thinking of was Deepak Chopra. He's an MD and maybe even a PhD, but I am not sure he has taken very many physics courses. In what little I read of him he bandied about the words "Einstein" and "quantum" like they were magic wands.

[puebloknot]

118. And there are MDs who will saw of the wrong leg in surgery, too.

And PhDs can produce hokum when they *are* writing in peer-reviewed journals. Something about an elephant's kneecap comes to mind, but I lack the credentials and good memory to recall the details.

To say "I had an experience that was compelling, out of the ordinary, and for which I want to find an explanation," immediately draws a response from those with *some* knowledge of physics which invariably suggests mythology, imagination, mental imbalance -- each and every must be at play.

I suggest that you get back to me when *you* have accessed information over distance and out of time that *your* physics does not explain or allow for (or your understanding of physics as you've studied it), and let me help you understand that it was "a load of crap."

I think that your phrase "in what little I read of him..." is very much at play here.

I can't argue physics with you. I learned that's a losing game a long time ago. I can tell you that it's very satisfying to have arrived on a shore that offers shelter from any necessity to have this kind of lose/lose conversation.

Perhaps we have more than once species of "human" living on this Earth, and we're communicating about as well as Dems and Repugs. Some of us hear music that others don't hear. Those who are tone deaf insist that we couldn't be hearing it because they cannot.

[hunter]

121. I hear that music, and I'm getting back to you.

My life has been rich with experiences that my physics and my biology and my math do not explain. And yes, I do extract personal meanings from those experiences. My "spirit" or personality or individuality (or whatever you want to call it) has been shaped by these experiences.

That said, I think it degrades spiritual experiences to describe them in terms of a false science.

In response to your name, "puebloknot," it's my own experience that I get along best with indigenous Mexican or Pueblo culture when I simply accept it and appreciate it and participate in it as a guest. Quite clearly there are aspects of these cultures that are very remote from my own, and it would be presumptuous of me to embrace them from any unstable footing of misunderstanding.

As a young man I traveled quite freely in the Southwest and Mexico and I think it was because I didn't have any preconceptions about the people I met. The only time I ever had trouble was when I was traveling with a guy who was looking for some kind of "authentic" Indian experience. His notions of what that should be were intensely irritating to the people we met. After a few uncomfortable encounters I ended up taking him to places that met his expectations, but were not in any way authentic.

I think if you are comfortable with your own spirituality then the need for mystical explanations diminishes. The most gentle religions have a sweet comedy to them that is alien to our Western Society. Where did people come from? Under that rock over there. Who was the first man? A guy made out of dirt. How did that smoking mountain get there? A gopher found fire.

We are too damned serious.

[puebloknot]

122. This is a beautifully-written expression of your views.

This is not a good venue for trying to make my own views clear, and seeing a random post in a particular thread does not convey who I am, at all. You are making assumptions about my world view that you lack sufficient information to make. That's just part of the drill with online exchanges like this.

I am not particularly open to claims of "false science." Maybe it's because a lot of my earlier life was colored by my experience of working with 21 physicists at a university, dating one of them for several years. I learned that they are human, that they have feet of clay, that there is a higher-than-average degree of arrogance that pervades their community, that they are very, very narrow in their views of *everything*.

I have also come to have respect for many of them, and for what they've done. It is gratifying to be in the presence of towering intellects, until you realize that ...no tickie, no laundry. No physics degree, no respect for your own, ahem, colorful thinking. (This having nothing to do with metaphysics, either!) There were already 18 ex-wives when I started working in the department. I came to have some clues as to why that might be.

I know the son of one of the main players in the Manhattan Project, and the soul-searching that the man and his whole family have gone through in their lives, after the bomb.

Sometimes, I just have to laugh the whole thing off and try not to get irritated at some of the ivory-tower stuff that seems to fall off of physics types like leaves leaving the trees in autumn. An example: The famous physicist mentioned above is my landlord, and I deal with his son. Recently, I had to ask for help with my swamp cooler. It wasn't cooling.

The famous physicist's son (not himself a physicist, but well indoctrinated in the faith) came over and diagnosed the problem: "Your air conditioner is not working as well this year as last year because the ambient temperature of the planet has risen."

The truth of the matter: The fu**ing swamp cooler wasn't working as well this summer as last because no water was getting to the fu**ing pads. Once that was corrected, the ambient temperature in my condominium went down considerably!

You make some excellent points in your post, and I appreciate your bothering to do so. I just have a feeling that you, like many others with a degree of physics knowledge, have a knee-jerk reaction to books that hit the market and make an effort to explain away experiences that fall into the general category of the paranormal, without even having read the book or attended a lecture by the author. I don't ever want to get so smart that I'm not open to new ideas. I've left a lot of lectures that I thought were rot, and I'll admit that I don't open myself to the same experience again. Who can say when we've come to the end of knowing and can just stay home and pontificate, without going out in the cold?

I must assert that I get as irritated as you and others over some of the cult-like adoration of various teachers and new ideas. I just don't accept that Old Guard physicists have all the answers, either. I read everything my heart desires, I think about and discuss ideas that come along, and I don't get caught in concrete positions because life doesn't let me.

Yes, we're too serious. I'll leave the planet without definitive answers to some or most of my quandaries, most likely. Better to spend the time enjoying New Mexico's sun. We got 27 inches of snow here a couple of days ago, and are snowbound. But the sun is working on the problem. The consciousness of the snow is saying "Melt me, melt me, ooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"! And the energy of the sun is bending itself around that mantra.

See how easy it is? :)

[hunter]

123. Mostly I hang out with biologists, geologists, and medical people.

The few physicists I interact with tend not to be brittle, and don't feel the attraction of ivory towers.

I don't think you can ever get so smart that you are not open to new ideas. If you are not open to new ideas, you are not smart, you are a fossil.

[siligut]

112. Loopiness and alternate realities

There can be a change in the balance of neurotransmitters when we have extrasensory visions, ideas, thoughts or “knowings”. The imbalance may be what makes the ESP possible in some cases. Maybe, you are sensitive to the change and associate the alternate reality experiences with the negative aspects of what occurs in other areas of your life due to the imbalance.

There are records of atropine like substances being used for astral travel by witches and egyptian priests, atropine blocks the parasympathetic response, so the catecholamines like epinephrine and dopamine take the wheel, I know dopamine can cause some mind weirdness. One study showed persons diagnosed with schizophrenia had higher levels of dopamine.

[Mythsaje]

86. I know about JZ Knight and Ramtha...

Probably a hell of a lot longer than you have.

She's a local, more or less. Owns a compound out in Yelm, some 45 miles from where I am. I've been by it a time or two.

So what?

She's not even the first to say what she says. In fact, she got her inspiration from Jane Roberts and Seth in the mid to late sixties and seventies. Which sure as FUCK said a lot of the same things that quantum physicists are saying now, long before anyone in the mainstream even had a clue what any of it was.

You mind telling me why so many people who ARE physicists were involved in that movie, if it's all bunk?

[greyl]

93. David Albert is pissed.

Cult Science
Dressing up mysticism as quantum physics

Popular Science/October 11, 2004
By Gregory Mone

...One of the few legitimate academics in the film, David Albert, a philosopher of physics at Columbia University, is outraged at the final product. He says that he spent four hours patiently explaining to the filmmakers why quantum mechanics has nothing to do with consciousness or spirituality, only to see his statements edited and cut to the point where it appears as though he and the spirit warrior are speaking with one voice. "I was taken," Albert admits. "I was really gullible, but I learned my lesson."

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/09/16/bleep

http://skepdic.com/ramtha.html#bleep

[SidDithers]

110. Great effin post...nt

:applause:

Sid

[roguevalley]

92. thank you, mythsage. this was what I needed to read right now. I

live in Alaska.

[NC_Nurse]

97. Great post!

A nice reminder for the New Year. I hope you're break isn't too long, we need your voice hear among the din
of whining and handwringing! :)

[helderheid]

100. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

:loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya::loveya:

[Clarkie1]

101. I need to get that movie on Netflix.

Saw it when it was out in theatres. Great flick.

[Mythsaje]

108. Notice no one ever tries to refute the biology angle?

Even if the rest of it is questionable, the fact that the way we approach the world sure as hell affects us , and damn sure affects other people as well.

[Zomby Woof]

103. I understand completely

Too many depressives run this place down. A break can do a lot of good.

[hunter]

111. You are an awful creature.

:rofl:

[pitohui]

105. the most magical moments don't involve consciousness

they actually involve leaving all that behind, think the orgasm

i'm also sorry that your grasp of quantum physics is so poor that you were taken in by some filmmakers, who embarrassed the physicists quoted in the film by deliberately misstating their work and selectively editing their statements

as always, the lie gets halfway round the world while truth is still putting its boots on

i don't consider being realistic negative, i consider it being realistic

that said, if a work of fiction (which is what "what the bleep do we know?" is) refreshes you and gets you back in the groove, that's the important thing and my quibbles should be brushed off for what they are -- quibbles

but in my humble opinion there is plenty of "point" without "consciousness" i don't think the earth existed for billions of years w.out a "point," it was probably actually more beautiful and pleasant for the non-evolved beings than it is today w. all our wonderfully intellect and strip malls

there are billions of stars in billions of galaxies that lack consciousness, they are not the less beautiful for that

[Mythsaje]

107. Are you sure stars have no consciousness?

I'm not...

On edit: In his book, "Contact," Carl Sagan put forth the idea that perhaps the whole purpose of consciousness was to someday explain the universe to itself.

:shrug: That resonated for me. And I say that without someone to wonder "what's all this about?" all the whole thing can possibly be is mechanics. Vast, immeasurable mechanics, but mechanics nonetheless.

[hunter]

114. What's wrong with mechanics?

To me that's a lot more satisfying than vague, shadowy, mysterious, utterly undefinable and inexpressible things somehow related to our own consciousness.

This universe is a fascinating place. Everything is written on the face of it, and we can learn to read it. A human being can see how matter is energy, E=mc², and entire new chapters are revealed clearly to us, opening up bright new possibilities for exploration. It's a sunny day and huge vistas before us, not the stuffy dark room of some swindler's seance.

We don't have to make stuff up about the universe, it's right here where we can touch it.

And the stories we tell, the myths we make, and the fine arts and the philosophies and the religions we practice? Those need no deeper justification. Art is what humans do.

[RiverStone]

116. Had the same feelings Mythsaje - and posted this 2 days ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3007091&mesg_id=3007091

Promise, it will give ya a bleeping smile!

p.s. I saw What the Bleep and enjoyed it - so here's to bending that negativity with humor. Works just about every time :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

117. Hey,- I'm all for positive thinking. And I know the universe is weirder than "common sense" as we

currently understand it operates. I fully believe an analysis of actual quantum physics will leave anyone scratching their head at the oddity of the whole deal. I think the interaction between consciousness and reality is poorly understood, if it's understood at all. I spent part of my reckless youth following the Dead around, ferchrissakes. I've experienced things I can't explain and things that defy logic--- things that I have no desire to proseltyze about to others, but whose meaning is intensely personal to me- and that were instrumental in my growth and development.

But--- that said? In my ever-so-humble opinion?

That movie blew some serious ass. It mangled the real science so badly, it was offensive.

If you're interested in something that gives a much more grounded scoop on quantum weirdness, I'd start with Nick Herbert:

http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Reality-Beyond-New-Physics/

I had good expectations for that film, but after watching it, I would say that "What the bleep do we know" should be applied first and foremost to the screenwriting team.

[The Minus World]

119. Look Before You Quantum Leap.

I agree with your statement about positivity begetting positivity. However, to abandon the oftentimes dissatisfying approach of critical thought and skepticism that constitute the foundation of modern science is a step in the wrong direction.

An unpleasant fact, but a fact nonetheless: "What the Bleep do we Know?" is considered, by the scientific community at large, nothing more than an exercise in pseudoscience and mystical thinking. It is seen as a disingenuous patchwork of misquotes and mischaracterizations intended to reaffirm one's belief in a conclusion reached long before the play button was ever pressed on his or her DVD player.

Quantum physics says nothing about "magical thinking". A small percentage of American adults understand even the basics of Calculus, so it follows that even fewer understand what is meant when "quantum physics" is being discussed, save for a few generalities and cereal-box factoids. When a new-age authority figure falsely claims an understanding of such a subject, passing off tainted beliefs to a credulous audience, people can be persuaded to believe the unbelievable, and a disservice is done to the scientific method. Carl Sagan wrote a whole book on this very subject, entitled "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark", and I strongly recommend you read it while on your break from DU.

We are all aware that charlatans use language to manipulate their audience (e.g. Fox News' headlines). Labeling an idea as being explained by "quantum physics" is a lofty assertion, but it invokes feelings of comfort in its target group. After all, it would be alleviating to know that the authority of scientists far beyond my domain of knowledge lend credence to the very ideas I simply "feel in my gut". I am sure that the minds behind "What the Bleep..." are well-intentioned, but the self-criticism and scientific rigor which make science science are simply not present in this work. Good faith cannot replace that which simply is not there.

A final note: When you say things like "we exist to make sense of it all", you are asserting a belief, not a fact. Humans do occupy a unique place in this world of ours, it's true, but our purpose exists not but in the arbitrary manuscripts of religion and spirituality, and in the dreams of philosophers. It would serve you well not to confuse science with philosophy, or either with religion.

In the end, though, it probably matters little whether it is spirituality or hard scientific fact which motivates us to create conditions in which humanity can sustain itself. Joseph Campbell argued that perhaps what humanity needs is a new mythology; a narrative which reinforces behaviours which increase mankind's chances of living on. I tend to believe that, as technology advances and we discover scientific explanations for previously inexplicable phenomena, "magical thinking" will be harder and harder to engage in. The determination whether our future is bright or dark rests solely on the shoulders of those responsible for authoring such a future. There is harm in only thinking positive--one must act positive as well.

[Lilith Velkor]

120. Being negative towards people who are suffering doesn't make one positive.

It makes one a bullying shit, in my opinion.

And it's irresponsible. America is in serious trouble because too few of it's voting poulation worries their beautiful minds about anything.

DUers are not your fucking monkeys. Chew on that.