Ford wasn't a perfect man

[dsc]

Gee what a shock. Ford's despicable treatment of the man who saved his life surely doesn't enamour me toward him. But his honorable and courageous decision to pardon Nixon does. And his choice of wife surely does.

Any person can be trashed at any time. I sure wouldn't want to be eulogized by my enemies. You would hear of a drunken liar unfit for human company. Ford wasn't perfect. So what. It is two days past Christmas and the man is dead. He did do some good things. If we can't reflect on that then maybe we should be quiet for a respectable period.

I choose to reflect on Betty today. She is probably the third most important person in the treatment of alcoholism after Bill W and Dr. Bob. There are millions of people who owe their sobriety, in part, to her. As one who enjoys that gift on a daily basis, I know what an important gift it is. Women alcoholics especially owe a great debt to her. For her alone, I would be respectful today.

No one here is perfect. We all have at least a few people who could quite rightfully tell awful tales about us when we are gone. One thing they won't be able to say about me is that I went around telling awful tales about the departed.

[antiimperialist]

1. Pardoning Nixon courageous?

How?

[dsc]

3. He lost because of it

[antiimperialist]

8. Hitler was courageous

I don't think being courageous in a bad way is flattering to anyone. Hit ler was courageous. He lost Germany and his lives becasue of his actions.

[dsc]

11. I think he was also correct

Watergate was over and needed to stay over. Carter's or more likely Ford's entire term would have been taken over by it had Nixon not been pardoned.

[antiimperialist]

13. Exaggeration

It's like those who say impeachment procedures against Bush are not advisable because there will be no time to take care of other issues. Congressmen make too much money to not be able to multitask.

[dsc]

15. There is only so much political capital out there

spending it on Impeachment means we can't spend it on beneficial legislation. In the era Nixon would have been the first former President to set foot in a courtroom as a defendent. It would have taken all the attention that the press has to pay to politics.

[antiimperialist]

19. Don't worry, congressmen work 5 days a week now

as compared to 2 days a week before, that's a 150% increase in work hours. I imagine they did this in order to have time to multitask, or am I wrong?

I wish I were a congress person. So little is expected of them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Read between the lines

and if you understood how an organic impeachment works, you'd get it. Now that WE have the gavel, we are moving down the I road... actions speak louder than words

[dsc]

22. I am not claiming that Congress could do nothing else

but I am saying they can only do so many things requiring political capital. I would rather burn that capital on passing universal health care, raising taxes on the rich and other such things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. You really do not understand this little fact

there was no unbiased JURY in the land that could try Nixon.

An unbiased jury is a requirement in US Law for a fair trial to occurr.

You do KNOW this, don't you?

And yes tricky dick should have been tried, find a court that could have taken the case

That was one of the reasons for that pardon... that man, tricky dick, was guilty before the gavel fell down on any judge's chamber... you cannot do that in the US.

[Zhade]

48. So, despite Constitutional lawyers knowing more on this than you...

...you've decided it's okay to basically give ANY president a pass, because of your assumption that there are no Americans dedicated enough to justice who could put aside their feelings to serve on a jury.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. No, I understand why he did it

I also suspect he did not expect the horrors that we are living through

But answer this honestly... do you think Nixon would have been tried by an unbiased jury?

Now be honest here.

[Zhade]

50. First off, FUCK your assertion that I would answer any way but honestly.

That's extremely insulting, and it's completely unwarranted.

Second, I can't answer if he WOULD have been fairly tried, just as you can't (honestly!) say that he wouldn't, because there's no way either of us can know.

But I do know this: honest citizens put aside what they've heard on the news to try criminals every single day in this country. You don't seem to understand that fact.

Bottom line - Ford pardoned a man who belonged in prison and also helped set up such people as Rumsfeld and Cheney into positions of power.

That alone (and that's not even counting the whole East Timor thing) is enough to condemn the man.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Served in jury duty lately?

if you have you'd know the answer to your question.

The first question the judge asks is.. do you know anything about this case from the media or otherwise?

As a student of history I can answer the question... in both the theoretical and realistic manner. Those alive in 1974 could not honestly say that they did not know anything about the Watergate scandal

Finding a jury pool that was not contaminated would have been almost impossible

Now if you cannot see that... please at least keep the language fit for the yards outside the discussion.

And once again, our standard of laws requires an unbiased jury... or as close as you can come to that ideal. I sincerely doubt that in 1974 you could have assembled such a jury.

And we will have the same problem with Junior, incidentally

If judge asked me right now, if I could be impartial and give George W Bush a fair hearing, I would have to ask to be excused from that jury.

[Zhade]

57. Served, no, called yes.

I firmly disagree with your unsupported assertions that there could be no fair jury. And let me ask you this: are you thus likewise concluding that we won't be able to try b*s* for the same reasons?

(As to your call for censoring my language, fuck THAT, too. You don't set the terms of the discussion.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Then we can agree to disagree

if this was an ideal world Nixon should have been tried

Alas we don't live in such a world

And I am sure that the chances of finding an unbiased jury were pretty low. In fact a snow ball had a far better chance in hell. Sorry, I do happen to know that history, and over the last six years I have studied that history in even more detail... and it was the least of the bad options that ford had. Yes, he could have gone for the trial, (and 20 \20 hindsight he should have), but that would have kept that scab open for how many years? And I am betting it would have challenged all the way to the Supreme Court and even if ONE of those jurors had been found to be contaminated the whole thing would have been thrown out.

When you move to that ideal world where your ideal of what should happen please let me know.

As is I may not agree with the pardon, but for god sakes I UNDERSTAND why it was done... and it was the least of the ugly options.

In an ideal world Nixon and the rest should have faced the music... alas we don't live in such a world

And we must get ready for the day that Junior may have to face the music... personally I don't believe you will be able to find an unbiased jury either, not after all the crap is revealed.

So what do you do? My least of the ugly in george's turn is the Hague by the way.

Mob justice? String up the rope.

[Zhade]

59. Your argument boils down to "uncover the evidence and we can't try them".

Sorry, I happen to know we can do better than that.

And Nixon should have been tried, ideal world or no - his crimes demanded it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. No my argument comes down to

Ford had very smelly choices, and he took the least smelly of them all

I am willing to bet that he did not expect Junior to go the way he went

I am also betting he was not counting on a DEMOCRATIC Congress on not going for the ninth degree over Iran Contra

If he was a seer and saw that coming down the pike... he might (I suspect he would) have taken a different route.

But he was a creature of his era...

If you cannot see that, I cannot help you.

As I said, we can agree to disagree, I can understand the complexity and I also realize why Junior will have to face the music at the Hague and NOT the US, most likely than not.

[Zhade]

61. Despite your continued condescension, I see the complexity myself.

I just don't excuse Ford's ethical weakness because of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. There is no condescention here

either you get or you don't

I get it.

I am not so sure you do

[Zhade]

65. LOL! It's right there in the post I'm replying to!

Man, you sure have a high opinion of your own opinions, huh?

This is getting hilarious.

[Richardo]

56. HAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA

You kill me.

[WI_DEM]

4. obviously the easy choice at the time was not to pardon Nixon

he lost the election in '76 due to the pardon. He decided, and rightly so I think, that the country needed to put Watergate behind it and concentrate on other problems. He was spending a quarter of his time on Nixon issues and congress would be doing the same. He was denounced at the time, but today, according to polls, most people think he made the right decision. Even Sen. Edward Kennedy who criticized him at the time said he has come around to Ford's way of thinking on the Nixon pardon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. He knew it would cost him the presidency

and ultimately he was correct

he also knew he was going against the grain of public opinion, that to a point takes courage

he understood a couple things AT THE TIME, and he truly could not foresee the future, that you do not

There was no jury in the land that could try Nixon and be a fair jury. that is a small, smidgen of a requirement under US Law

He was spending upward of one quarter of his time dealing with Watergate and what to do with it instead of the needs of the country. But I am sure you understood that

Now the consequences of his decision... but chiefly our unwillingness to Impeach Reagan\Bush over Iran Contra, are the reasons we are where we are today.

But yes, it took courage to pardon Nixon...

And I do hope though that the next President of the US learns the lesson that Ford could not foresee... Junior and the cabal need to see the insides of a Court of Law... yet, they will have the same problem that Nixon had... find an unbiased jury... I suggest the Hague for them for International Crimes, and only AFTER some years have passed under the prosecution in an International court, should they be tried for crimes in the US...

[roguevalley]

67. I agree. How? Pardoning that fucker made clear that there are

always going to be two systems of justice in this country. You can commit genocide and walk but if you steal a car ...

[BuyingThyme]

2. The "by association"

argument couldn't be applied to a more inappropriate target.

[MrCoffee]

5. Does "don't speak ill of the dead" still apply

if i never had anything good to say about the dead when they were alive?

[dsc]

9. for a week or so

I say yes. I am not saying we have to invent nice things to say, merely refrain from saying things for a short time.

[MrCoffee]

12. fair enough, i suppose.

thank you, btw. it was an honest question. i appreciate your input.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. So when the official line is that Ford was a Great President

we are supposed to shut up and sit down while they lie their asses off? Sorry, won't play.

[shain from kane]

26. This from someone who calls himself MrCoffee, one of the biggest

jokes perpetuated by the now deceased Joe DiMaggio.

[Pathwalker]

6. Betty Ford was the first woman to publicly discuss

her breast cancer. Until she spoke up, the subject was taboo. Today, no one acts as if it's too shocking to discuss - imagine that.

[dsc]

7. I had honestly forgotten that

and you are quite right.

[riderinthestorm]

14. And yet another thread scolding and lecturing anyone who wants to explore truths about Ford...

:eyes: What is this, number 4 or 5?

[MrCoffee]

17. you're keeping score?

[riderinthestorm]

25. Heh. No, but I probably should so I can be really accurate

There's at least 3 on the front page alone plus numerous other individual posts within other threads calling anyone a jerk (or "uncouth"?!) who might want to discuss Ford's less than stellar, may I say even criminal, record.

I'm of the belief that this is an educable moment - this kind of information about Ford's real record, not the whitewashed one that so many want to present - and presenting honest facts isn't "bashing" or being disrepectful. It's discussing the truth of a very public figure.

This amount of information about Ford will never be examined and perhaps even remembered by so many DUers as right now (and there are other threads dealing with public deaths to back me up on this point). If one waits a week before Ford's entire service records is "allowed" to be discussed it will never generate the same level of discussion or discourse. And scrutinizing our public figures' performance and record is a good thing. Ford would know that, he would understand that. I don't understand, nor do I agree with those who want to squelch dissemination of truth at any time.

[shain from kane]

32. There is Ford's truth, and then there is the real truth.

[riderinthestorm]

36. I live in Dupage, my farm is in Kane.

:hi: I just replaced Hyde with Roskam while Hastert persists in Batavia, alas. I volunteered for both Duckworth and did a bit for Laesch. I will say I think I had the biggest Laesch sign on the planet on the parkway out at the farm (my road has become the not-so-secret path to 1-88 so I capitalized on visibility), even if most of my time was spent working for Duckworth!

Anyway, I agree, why is it so important to participate in spinning Ford's legacy? Why can't there be truthful discussion? Especially on an anonymous message board? There are ignore and hide functions on DU, people should just use them.
:shrug:

[shain from kane]

44. Sorry to disappoint you, but it is not Kane County. To reveal more would

open the Doors to my identity.

As the saying goes, "The rain in Kane falls mainly on the Shains."

[dsc]

18. We have literally all the time in the world

to explore the truth about Ford. He will be dead for years and years to come. For one week, can we just not be uncooth?

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Personally I am looking forwards to his memoirs

to be released after his death.

I am sure he will reveal quite a bit in them about the pardon and his reasoning behind it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. You don't really expect the truth, do you?

From Gerald "Warren Commision" Ford?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. No I epxect one more piece to the puzzle

but then again Historians are trained to look at PRIMARY sources, and his memoirs happen to be part of that primary source puzzle

[riderinthestorm]

29. No time like the present. Noone will explore the truth about Ford in a week from now

That thread will die an instant death.

And discussing a public president's record isn't "uncouth" in the least. I'm finding it really bizarre that the discussion of truths about his service is somehow an untouchable subject. This isn't "bashing", it's discussing history.

[sandnsea]

30. But now is when the story is cemented

If people don't point out his place on the Warren Commission, the people he surrounded himself with, decisions made - then we end up with the sanitized version and people don't have a complete picture of how we got here. I think that can be done without some of the vitriol I've seen here, that stuff is ugly no matter when it's done. Don't kid yourself, they'd be doing the same thing if it were Clinton or Carter. Republicans did say ugly things after JFK was shot, don't forget.

[hfojvt]

37. explore truths?

Or issue broadside condemnations? Because 'rest is pi$$' does not explore any truths. Some people seem to think that when they hawk a loogey that they have contributed to a discussion.

[riderinthestorm]

42. Guess you didn't read the posts discussing his whitewashing of the Warren Commission

on that thread, or Ford's bogus attempt to impeach one of our finest jurists, or his pardon of Nixon and how that has facilitated Rethug crimes that echo to this day or any of the numerous other factual, truthful discussions of Ford's legacy on that thread. So the OP was strong, and that's different than how many other OP's on DU?

Why do you feel you need to contribute to spinning Ford? This thread's OP wants to put a moratorium for a WEEK on discussing Ford, by then the whitewash will be cemented in place, including here on DU.

[hfojvt]

51. the OP was not strong

it was without substance. If other posters added substance, perhaps they should have done so in their own, or some other thread.

If I am spinning Ford, I have yet to see any of Ford's detractors respond with any substance. I say that discussion is just fine by me, but spewing of vile bile is something completely different.

[riderinthestorm]

54. The OP offered two points for discussion and then gave his opinion.

1. Ford covered up Kennedy's assassination.
2. He pardoned Nixon.

That doesn't seem too different than pretty much every single other OP on DU. A premise is posited, an opinion is stated, the debate/discussion is launched.

Yet since this is about a dead politician, there's supposed to be some kind of arbitrary moratorium?? Every single thread trying to discuss Ford's record with any degree of honesty has it's percentage of posters who are trying to stifle discussion by crying "bashing!". There's no "substance" on this thread about Ford's legacy but there are on plenty of others (if you cared to actually participate instead of jumping in with "vile bile"! accusations ad infinitum).

[MonkeyFunk]

23. What was despicable about his treatment

of Bill Sipple?

From what I read, Ford thanked him, and on Sipple's death, sent flowers and a nice letter to his friends.

[dsc]

33. Sipple saved the man's life

He didn't get a metal and Ford didn't even attend his funeral.

[MonkeyFunk]

40. well

he MAY have saved his life. Sara Jane Moore was across a wide street, and Ford was surrounded by people, AND behind his limo. No guarantees she would have hit him, much less killed him.

However, Sipple acted bravely and honorably. Ford thanked him. Sent a nice letter and flowers to his funeral. I'm not sure I'd call it despicable not to attend his funeral personally.

Sipple also HATED the attention the Ford incident brought to him. I'm not sure he'd want Ford to attend his funeral.

[leftofthedial]

24. politically, he was the RW authoritarian repuke's go-go guy

whenever they needed a whitewash

-spit-

[kstewart33]

27. dsc is right.

It took courage to pardon Nixon. The public had completely turned against him, and many, many people wanted him tried and convicted. But Ford had the wisdom to see that the country had to move on. Nixon paid the ultimate price - he resigned in total disgrace.

Ford greatly paid for making that decision.

He was a good and decent man. Not perfect of course, but a truly decent guy. I voted for Carter in '76 and still would today. But I'm much wiser about Ford now. I guess that comes over a few decades of observing politics.

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. Nixon did not pay the ultimate price, by a long shot.

He was rehabilitated, and became a republican elder statesman precisely because he did not face criminal charges, due to Ford's pardon. Nixonian, also not prosecuted, showed up in Ford's, Reagan's, Bush I's and Bush II's administrations. The ramifications of that pre-empitve pardon have been with us for 30 years, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Don't think he didn't know that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I don't think Ford expected the pardon to lead to

Junior.

Don't forget we failed to prosecute the Iran contra criminals as well

So this record is no limited to one.

And as I said above... show me a jury that was capable of trying Nixon and had not already decided on his guilt.

We will face the same problem with Junior... and this time we have to try them... but the temptation for a pardon will be very high.

[Imagevision]

28. Ford agreed to pardon Nixon before he was chosen to replace him, this was

clearly understood and agreed to by Ford which would then make him President Of The United States.

[hfojvt]

39. and you know this how?

God told it to you in a dream? Do you think you could prove it in a court of law?

[Old and In the Way]

41. Ford applied a band-aid to the cancerous tumor.

25 years later it has metastasized to the deadly form of government we have today.

[Hav]

43. .

I didn't know about the tragic story of Bill Sipple...really sad.

http://thesnapblog.blogspot.com/2006/03/gay-man-that-saved-presidents-life.html

[Zhade]

45. "honorable and courageous decision to pardon Nixon"

Are you insane?

I ask this seriously, because sane people do not usually espouse pardoning criminals who spy on the American public and escalate wars based on lies.

Get checked out, I think the air might be thin where you are.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

46. sadly, I was the first to recommend this

Good post dsc. I would hope others would recognize it just for the mention of Betty Ford.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Third most important person in the treatment of alcoholism - if you're a 12 stepper.

There are other paths that work for other folks. I'm sure some would argue that Jack Trimpey is the most important person in the treatment of alcoholism, not Bill Wilson.

[uppityperson]

52. thank you.

[Sparkly]

63. Thanks for posting this.

I didn't and don't agree with the pardon, but I understand the reasons for it.

I'm honestly surprised about the level of venom here against Ford. I think it must have something to do with the national zeitgeist around impeachment, corruption, accountability, and the carryovers from his administration to this one. But it seems way out of perspective for what President Ford himself actually did and didn't do; and I agree, on the day of his death, it strikes me as showing remarkable lack of decency. Just my humble reaction.

[Solon]

64. Are Presidents kings now?

Oh hell, forget that, even Sweden's king can get a fucking speeding ticket, but apparently our presidents are above the law, by default, regardless of what the Constitution says. Really, we are no more a country of laws than the Soviet Union was.

This is a guy who gave the go ahead for a massacre in East Timor, and materially supported Pinochet, he deserves nothing but contempt.

[JI7]

66. i think overall he was a good person

it's not about whether i agreed with him or liked certain things he did or about him.

but in the end i think he is a good person. and he cared about the country. and of course i agree with everything you say about Betty Ford.