CNN : Mini-Cars "Unsafe"

[Bonobo]

They are doing a segment right now about how Mini-Cars are unsafe. They had a sleazy looking insurance guy talking about how if they are hit from behind they will be crushed because of all the bigger cars. CNN said there is a double chance of being killed in a serious accident.

This made me recall a burning question I have had since the advent of SUVs. That is, why has there not been a trial lawyer clever or tough enough to try to make a case that an SUV is a danger to "normal" sized cars because of its higher bumper which can penetrate right into a standard-sized cars interior in a side-impact or otherwise undermine the safety device that is commonly known as the "bumper"?

[hippiechick]

1. Probably because the SUV legal defense team is gi-normous

... and would eat anyone who challenges it alive.

[KittyWampus]

5. that's why, IMO, the onus should be on the drivers of SUV's. I'm a bit different than many Liberals

as I don't discount the import of personal responsibility.

IMO, people should be held responsible finacially for serious errors in judgement that result in things like devastating fires and massive manhunts.

[leftofthedial]

17. discounting personal repsonsibility is NOT different from most liberals

it is repukes who have no commitment to the concept of personal responsibility--it is just a propaganda talking point for them that they use to attack social programs and Presidents who lie about consensual sex

[LittleClarkie]

87. That would be a myth

I think.

I don't discount personal responsibility either, and that fact never ceases to freak out my Conservative friends. They think it means that I'm a closet Conservative. But it really means that they get their info about what a Liberal is from Rush Limbaugh.

[treestar]

31. Exactly, they will be papered to death, and the "reform" of court

rules has proceeded apace for the past 20 years unmolested by the media or any citizens group. So that said case will be dismissed for failure to comply with discovery demands before you can crank out the paperwork, some of which will be deemed wrong.

Only the richest trial lawyer could even attempt it. And the tort law theory behind it would be very novel, and the said trial lawyer would be punished under Rule 11 for trying it (said novel theories never being punished when huge firm insurance defense lawyers come up with them).

[AngryAmish]

47. Like all those guys who sued in the Bronco cases for rollovers?

With respect, your post is wrong.

The SUV legal defense team is not all it is cracked up to be. People sued carmakers all the time. See (this is an appellate court case saying a $27 million verdict was too high, but people do sue carmakers).

In fact auto/SUV makers usually try to settle their cases because the industry has such a bad reputation.

BTW, the Plaintiff's bar has information exchanges. For a few hundred buck you can buy a litigation package from the American Trial Lawyers Assoc. with most products liability cases against automakers.

The problem this sort of suit is bumper height is mandated by the government and the SUV cannot be sold that violates the standard. Now suing the manufacturers of lift kits -- now there you go.

[unpossibles]

2. I agree. Of course that won't happen - it is the victim's fault, remember?

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Sure. Gotta promote that "personal responsibility"

So buy a little car risk-taker, but don't be surprised when you have to pay for firemen to extract you with the jaws of life. Just be grateful that the SUV driver that hit you set down her latte and ended her cellphone conversation to call 911. It's more than you deserve.

:sarcasm:

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Hi there, Jeff.

I take offense that you chose "her" both times when talking about SUV owners. I take it men don't drink lattes or use their cell phones while driving their SUV's? :hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. I try to offend on an equal opportunity basis.

I've been using the male pronoun a lot recently. I try to mix it up.

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

3. Absolutely, SUV owners should be forced to spend more for higher insurance

SUV's were designed NOT to be crash compatible.

[Mist]

4. Actually, I thought SUV owners did pay higher rates for more coverage--

due to the much higher cost of their accidents and damage to other vehicles.

On edit: Re: the concern w/mini-cars, aren't Volkswagons sort of a mini-car? Are their accident rates higher or more costly? I honestly don't know, but VW's have been around a long time, and are about the same size as a mini-car, aren't they?

[SheilaT]

6. If they do, that's a recent development.

The book "High and Mighty" by Keith Brasher which came out several years ago talks qute specifically how insurance companies made a deliberate decision not to charge the mostly upper-middle class owners of SUVs the rates they should have been charging. I also believe that small cars are less likely to get into accidents in the first place simply because they can more nimbly avoid them, unlike big, sluggish SUVs, although I can't point to a source for that.

[Mist]

10. It was about a year ago or so that I read a reference to insurers giving

serious thought to charging SUV owners higher insurance. Maybe they're "still looking into it." I guess my thought was: when do insurers let a chance to charge more get by them?

[rebel with a cause]

18. As I remember it, and I could be wrong,

there was a media attack on the amount of volkswagon beetles involved in fatal accidents. Of course the sited accidents were with trucks and were usually not the driver of the beetles fault, but their deaths were seen as the result of the beetle not offering them enough protection since the car had no extending front and back. It was not long after that that the beetle basically disappeared off the market.

[ComerPerro]

56. only because of the value of the car

[michreject]

92. Full coverage for my TrailBlazer

and PU is 1100.00 per year for full coverage. 300.00 deductable. It might go up a little in Jan. because i'm getting a new 3/4 PU to pull the 30ft. travel trailer.

[Atman]

7. Funny how the headline wasn't "GIANT SUV'S DANGEROUS"

The message was clear...keep buying big giant gas-guzzling Suburban Assault Vehicles or else you're putting your family at risk.

*sigh*

Corporate media to the rescue!

.

[benEzra]

105. That's because the IHHS report wasn't about SUV's...

it was about how minicars are considerably more dangerous than compacts and midsize models, in every type of collision, including single-vehicle crashes.

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html

[spanone]

8. My solution? Take the big fuckers off the road.

[seabeyond]

9. my pc oh so perfect liberal in laws tell me i should have suv for safety

of my children. this was one of the biggest reasons i did not buy an suv. in my thinking i felt i had to put myself and my children in danger. i could afford an suv. yet in my ability to protect my family, i am in essence putting a lot of peopple in danger. and the majority of the people put in danger are the poor that cannot afford these vehicles to keep their children and family safe.

i could not put my family above all others

[rebel with a cause]

24. The ads tell us that

we need a Hummer to up our self esteem. Makes a mans feel like a man, and a woman feel like a....well,I guess their idea of a man.
For me, I would just like a car that I could afford and that could be counted on to run. That would up my self esteem just fine, thank you. :D

[seabeyond]

27. i hear ya. you would not be surprised, i am sure, the number of hummers

here in the panhandle of texas. where being a man seems to be such a challenge. all about how ones looks on the outside, forget who he is.... huge sarcasm

walking into grocery store parking lot the other day, i saw a "man", you know that bush walk lookin a bit like an ape. caught my eye with all hs preening and recognized him from the country club. never did like the man. knew him before when he was a customer in the dry cleaner i worked. lol lol what an ass, after all, a dry cleaner employee. anyway....

sure enough there sits his hummer he is walking away from. it is all over who he is.

i cant fathom buying a vehicle that is the cost of a small, comfortable house. the first i bought at a very good price was 32k. every time i think of a vehicle that hits that amount i cannot do it, no want or desire is great enough.

what i look for is a car that wont leave me stranded. that is my only demand

[GoneOffShore]

70. Bumper sticker for Hummers

"Couldn't get one, had to buy one."

[0rganism]

89. Hummer? That's soooo 2004! Main battle tanks are where it's at

Nothing loosens up a rush hour traffic jam like some high explosive rounds from a 120mm smoothbore, ya know? and you hardly notice if you "accidently" drive over some hippy tree-hugger's Prius.

(obligatory :sarcasm: disclaimer)

[LeftyMom]

86. They're actually wrong about that.

The kids are safer in a minivan or decent sized sedan. Big SUVs, especially the truck based models, generally lack basic safety features and are built on rigid frames that transfer crash forces to occupants rather than flexing to absorb the force as car and van frames do.

[seabeyond]

91. i did read about a year ago prone to roll overs they are not

safer than a car, if i remember correctly. but they will put people in a car at a greater risk.

[benEzra]

106. Full-size sedan beats an SUV for safety...

decent mass (helps minimize delta-V in a crash); better acceleration, handling and braking (SUV's handle like pigs); rollover is way less of a problem; good-sized crush zones; etc. etc. And they're much more efficient, to boot. But even a midsize sedan probably is, on the whole, just as safe as the average SUV.

I drive a car that can seat six passengers (five very comfortably), has an enormous trunk, goes 0-60 in less than 8 seconds, pulls .72g on the skidpad with all-season tires, gets 34 mpg at 60 mph and 27 mpg at 80, and can tow a trailer to carry anything I want. Viva la sedan!

[alfredo]

12. They did say the Nissan Versa

did well in the safety tests.

[benEzra]

101. That's because it's not a minicar, per IHHS:

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html

Versa is best: Bigger than the other cars the Institute tested this time around, the Nissan Versa is classified a small car, the next size class up from minis. But this car is marketed to compete with minicars, so the Institute is releasing its ratings along with those of competing models.

None of the minicars did well.

[alfredo]

110. It also appears you don't get higher gas milage

with the minis.

[shain from kane]

13. Some of these SUVs have cowcatchers on the front. An accident would

be like getting hit by a freight train.

[Grateful for Hope]

14. I own a Mini Cooper

Last May, I was hit in the rear by an SUV (Dodge). I was not hurt, and, while there needed to be extensive body work to the rear of my car, there was no frame damage. Meanwhile the SUV suffered significant front end and engine damage. The driver of the SUV kept saying that "he couldn't believe that his car had so much damage from hitting a little Mini".

SUV's do not always win.


On edit: I got some pleasure out of watching the SUV being towed off as I got into my car to drive home.

:rofl:

[lebkuchen]

107. The 2007 Mini is supposed to be four inches longer

I'd love to get one...to include the door sensor, which unlocks just by touching the handle, GPS, MP3, sun roof, best sound system offered in 2007, but, I wish more colors were available. For a cute car, it needs better color options, like the classic sport cars.

[Double T]

15. Ban SUVs..........

safety problem in numbers solved, along with our excessive use and abuse of the oil and gasoline supply.

[MindPilot]

16. Easy answer, but there are a lot of people who need big vehicles

Big families, big dogs, etc. If you own a house, you pretty much need a truck of some kind.

What are YOU willing give up to obtain a nice perfect pc liberal utopia?

[seabeyond]

19. wait a minute. they put others at risk. i am suppose to trash smokers

vilify them, criminalize them, call them non progressive, speak as ugly to a smoker as my imagination will allow cause after all, agenda driven, bias reports suggest people sucking in second hand smoke are dropping like flies

but

i am suppose to understand there are reasons for suvs, a person gets to make an individual choice and not harbor hard feelings toward them even though they may put my family, my children in absolutely real time dangers way

i see

good thing i am that good and can do it, with out resentment and take precautions to lessen the risk to my children.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Well Done, seabeyond!

Good way to point out the rational disconnect. We've been doing a lot of selective ox goring around here, lately.
The Professor

[seabeyond]

32. thank you, but not a single anti smoking suv driving "progressive"

will touch it. i know this because most all my pc intellectual elitist in laws wont either.

now....i will get off the snide and snarky cause it does not suit me well. thank you for your recognition of selective ox goring and rational disconnect. i do appreciate it.

[MindPilot]

35. I never said anything about smokers

But I see your point. However the SUV has become the sin eater for all the problems that can't be blamed on second-hand smoke or mountain climbers.

Most of us grew up in a world where a dad's right arm was a restraint system and nobody even thought of wearing a helmet on anything without an engine. And we lived to tell the tale.

If SUVs are inherently dangerous, then should everything bigger than an SUV be banned too? How about pickup trucks? They have the same chassis configuration. Station wagons were big and heavy too; so are vans.

[seabeyond]

42. sin eater for all the problems that can't be blamed on second-hand smoke or mountain climbers.

god... you are refreshing. just a friggin breath of mountain air.

no, you never did say a thing about smokers. i used you as the spring to jump of the high dive. but you played with me so well. another thank you

your second sentence is even better

i personally do not judge others in the choice regardless of what it is. i do find more precautions needed around the suvs because they block my view. though i get pissed periodically, it is mine to deal with, not the suv drivers.

thank you for your post.

[Double T]

36. Self Delete. Sorry I posted to the wrong REPLY.

[seabeyond]

43. i dont have a clue what the hell you are talking about. so i guess you didnt

[Double T]

45. Self Delete. Sorry I posted to the wrong REPLY.

[seabeyond]

46. sorry i was snarky. wink. n/t

[Tesha]

21. SUVs, of course, are an impractical answer to "need more room"

Minivans hold as many passengers (or more), have more
interior volume for cargo, get better fuel economy,
and usually are more compatible with the safety and
air polution regs applied to cars (even though many
minivans could skate by as "light trucks", they
typically don't).

SUVs were a manufactured "fashion statement", nothing more;
pickup trucks made cushy for yuppy commuters.

Tesha

[Strelnikov_]

28. And How About A Minivan, As You Say, Constructed With Weight, Aerodynamics

as design goals and with a powertrain to maximize efficiency (re: as small as practicable).

The 'Exciting Driving Experince' ends with the oil age (and the climate we grew up with). A small, underpowered automobile is better than walking. Believe me, I know, as I battle the 'Empire of the Auto' on my bicycle daily.

[slackmaster]

41. I drive my SUV off road

It's not just a fashion statement for me.

[Tesha]

55. Uh-huh. (NT)

[rebel with a cause]

26. Buy a van.

Enough said.

[Xithras]

73. Vans are worse than SUV's

When it comes to full size vans, try this on for comparison. The GMC Yukon weighs in at 7300 lbs and gets no more than 16MPG around the city. By comparison, the GMC Savana weighs in at 9600 lbs and can't do any better than 15MPG. Full sized vans actually get the same poor mileage as SUV's, and are MORE dangerous in collisions.

And lest you think a minivan will save you: My wifes Caravan gets 19MPG. That's just as bad as most SUV's, and she only has a 4 Cylinder. Her minivan is much lighter at a comparatively paltry 4100lbs, but in a collision with a 2200 pound Toyota Yaris, a car literally half its weight, the Yaris would be crushed. Mass is on her side, and bumper position isn't going to help that. In a 50MPH head on collision, 2/3rds of the impact energy will be absorbed by the smaller car (which would literally be thrown backwards by the larger vehicle).

This is a simple fact of cars. Unless all vehicles are the same size, the smaller car always comes out on the losing end. Always. There is no engineering around the laws of physics.

[rebel with a cause]

74. Okay, buy a bike.

[Tesha]

77. That's funny...

> My wifes Caravan gets 19MPG. That's just as bad as most SUV's, and she only has a 4 Cylinder.

That's funny -- our 3.3 litre V6 Caravan easily manages 25 mpg commuting
in the Boston-area traffic to Mr. Tesha's job and has managed as much as
29 MPG once in a while.

Tesha

[Xithras]

82. Don't take my word for it...

Dodge's own published MPG ratings for a 2005 Dodge Caravan with the 4-cyl rate it at 20MPG city/26 highway. It's usually around 19 city, and if my wife is in a leadfoot mood I've seen it drop as low as 14. We take it on thousand mile roadtrips somewhat regularly (I have family in other states) and have NEVER seen highway MPG over 24.

Here's a link to the Dodge website with the MPG specs: http://www.dodge.com/en/performance/#mpg_caravan This is for the '07, but Dodge hasn't redesigned the Caravan in quite a few years and is the same as ours.

My Subaru Forester, an SUV, gets much better mileage than that. Heck, the Durango that the Caravan replaced had mileage ratings that weren't all that different.

If it weren't for the fact that the Caravan's resale value sucks and we're in the hole on it, my wife would have sold the thing two years ago. She wanted to replace it with a Nissan Quest a short while ago, but I pointed out that it's mileage ratings were even worse. The Mazda MPV? Worse as well. Toyota Sienna? Beats the Caravan by 2mpg on the highway, and ties it in the city.

At this point, we'd really like to trade it in for a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, but the $32,000 starting price for a stripped model is a bit steep (a well equipped Highlander Hybrid Limited with upgrades can easily climb over $50,000). It's kind of a non-point anyway, since our local dealerships have none to sell and a waiting list when they come in. Until the prices come down or something better comes onto the market, she'll continue to drive the slow polluter as long as she has to (7 passenger seating is a requirement for us).

[Tesha]

90. Your Forester *ISN'T* an SUV, except to the Subaru marketing department.

> Dodge's own published MPG ratings for a 2005 Dodge Caravan
> with the 4-cyl rate it at 20MPG city/26 highway.

Wow -- that's pathetic! No wonder Dodge sales are in the shitter!
That and the fact that Caravans have appalling reliability would
be enough to make anyone buy a Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna!


> My Subaru Forester, an SUV, gets much better mileage than that.

Your Forester *ISN'T* an SUV, except to the Subaru marketing
department. It's a model derived from Subaru's standard car
line, and styled to look rugged and SUV-like. (Betcha it
doesn't even qualify as a "light truck" and must, instead,
by law, meet car safety and CAFE standards.) It's in that
same category as Volvo XCs, Audi AllRoads, etc.

Real SUVs, the kind the debate is about, are derived from
pickup trucks and don't need to meet car standards. The
biggest SUVs don't have to meet *ANY* fuel economy standards!

Tesha

[benEzra]

94. That's an important distinction...

Your Forester *ISN'T* an SUV, except to the Subaru marketing department. It's a model derived from Subaru's standard car
line, and styled to look rugged and SUV-like. (Betcha it
doesn't even qualify as a "light truck" and must, instead,
by law, meet car safety and CAFE standards.) It's in that
same category as Volvo XCs, Audi AllRoads, etc.

Real SUVs, the kind the debate is about, are derived from
pickup trucks and don't need to meet car standards. The
biggest SUVs don't have to meet *ANY* fuel economy standards!

That's an important distinction, IMHO. A lot of people say "minivan good, SUV bad," but a number of car-derived SUV's offer better mileage (and performance, and handling) than most minivans.

Not all SUV's are Expeditions/Excursions/Explorers/Navigators/Hummers.

FWIW, our Plymouth Voyager gets low 20's on the highway, but it's an older model (1993, 3.0/3-speed). And I hear you about the reliability--I replaced the transmission (myself, @#$%! job) this past January, at only 120,000 miles or so. A K-car-derived transmission gets worked HARD moving a 3800-pound vehicle with the aerodynamics of a brick.

[InvisibleTouch]

97. My Caravan gets about 27 mpg.

I pulled the heavy seats out of the back (I needed the space to transport stuff), and I use the cruise control on highway trips. More space and better gas mileage than an SUV - which admittedly I like the look of, but it just wasn't as practical for me.

[Double T]

29. I drive a Toyota Corolla 95% of the time, UNLESS I need to take........

equipment somewhere that requires the use of my truck. Big families with big dogs that own a house ONLY think they need an SUV or truck, when a smaller car with a detachable trailer works just as well. I hardly live a nice perfect pc liberal utopia life (freeper description?), But I know MOST Americans THINK they need MORE than they actually do and until THEY realize that less is required, the country and the world will continue in decline.

[Strelnikov_]

33. I Went The Trailer Route With My Small Car

Small 5'x8.5' aluminum trailer. Works well.

Another option is keeping around a beater truck for the occasional haul. I think there is going to be a glut of pickups on the market soon, probably pick one up for a song.

[Double T]

34. I have the same aluminum trailer for my Corolla.............

works well for 90% of my hauling uses.

[Porcupine]

38. Bullshit!!! Minivans do all of that better.

They hold more people and more cargo. They come with full time 4wd. They are safer in accidents.

I drive a working truck, a Chevy S10 with a camper top and loaded with tools. I could not replace my truck with an SUV. Most pickups are NOT driven as working trucks but as show pieces for people with social dysfunctions. I know a lot of guys who work with Toyota Tacomas or Nissan Frontiers, small trucks. Plumbers and electricians are moving to Isuzu boxtop vans if they can afford them. If people could get replacements for the little Isuzu diesels they would snap them up in a heartbeat.

People who have Ford 250's and their monster ilk who use them to haul horse trailers are just showing off their ability to piss away money.

[SheilaT]

69. If you own a house you pretty much

need a truck? No.

Speaking as a homeowner of several decades' standing, I can assure you that it is perfectly possible to be a happy and successful homeowner without a truck.

And if you have a big family, a minivan or a full-sized van (if you have a really large family) will transport more people than the average SUV, and definitely more than a Hummer, which only seats 4.

[gollygee]

71. My minivan seats 8 !!

talk about carpool potential :D

And it has tons of capacity for moving stuff because the back two rows of seats fold down flat.

[Maru Kitteh]

84. Need"? I would give that a generous 4% of the general populous.

GENEROUS.

The problem lies not in that tiny, tiny percentage of people who have genuine need, it lies in the other 51+% that have no real need, only excuses and egos. I hope life becomes very different for them.

[Strelnikov_]

23. Vehicles That Get Less Than, Say, 40 Mi/Gal Are Going To Be Self-Limited

anyway, fairly soon, if the direction things seem to be going doesn't change.

I am detecting panic from GM/Ford. GM is so worried, they are even talking about electric cars again.

[San Diego]

20. Watch this video of Smart Cars being crash tested.

Perhaps somebody should send it to CNN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s

[Strelnikov_]

30. The 'Smart Car' Is Fairly Safe, From What I Recall.

The driver is essentially located in a high strength cage.

My VW Jetta TDI also has fairly good crash test ratings.

I think our FUD detector is flashing red.

[LostinVA]

37. My Golf TDI also has a great crash ranting

And that's a little car.

[benEzra]

103. Not nearly as small as the ones IHHS is criticizing...

My Golf TDI also has a great crash rating And that's a little car.

Not nearly as small as the ones IHHS is criticizing. Curb weight for a Golf is in the neighborhood of 2900 pounds. The minicars IHHS is talking about weigh 2000-2500 pounds.

IHHS is saying that the minicars are considerably less safe than cars like your Golf, as I read it:

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html

[benEzra]

102. In single-vehicle accidents yes; in multiple-vehicle collisions, no

The 'Smart Car' Is Fairly Safe, From What I Recall. The driver is essentially located in a high strength cage.

That gives you good protection in single-vehicle crashes, but the Smart's low mass (close to 2000 lb) makes it pretty bad in multiple-vehicle collisions. Not because the safety systems don't work, but because the mass difference between the Smart and a regular car means that the Smart sees up to twice the delta-V and up to four times the crash severity (in terms of KE) than a full-sized car. Even if the Smart's safety systems could manage twice the occupant KE as the systems of a larger car (not likely), there is a large range of collisions in which the Smart driver would die and the driver of the other car would walk away with bruises. That's not to say that the Smart is a bad car; it's just a very light car, with the collision physics that quality entails.

Look at this video, of a head-on crash test between a Mercedes sedan and a Smart, in which the Smart gets tossed like a beer can, and the Mercedes driver would likely walk away unscathed. Notice that the Mercedes keeps moving forward (delta-V is smaller than the car's original speed), and the Smart flies off backward (delta-V is considerably more than the car's original speed), keeping in mind that crash severity you experience is proportional to delta-V squared.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/06/12/video-mercedes-s-class-vs-smart/

In the other video--the 70-mph crash into the wall--the occupants would almost certainly have died from the collision forces, even though the safety cage remained intact. We humans are pretty fragile.

My VW Jetta TDI also has fairly good crash test ratings.

I think our FUD detector is flashing red.

Your Jetta is about two size classes bigger than the minicars the IHHS is critizing. I'm seeing a curb weight for a Jetta in the range of 3250 to 3300 pounds, whereas the IHHS is criticizing cars weighing less than 2500. In your Jetta, you have about a thousand pounds more mass around you than the driver of a Smart does.

[ReadTomPaine]

76. Bingo - the dynamics here are far more complex than most think...

as things such as energy transfer, inertia, chassis rigidity and more often have unexpected results in actual crash scenarios.

As an example, in many cases a much smaller car will have excellent results against larger vehicles simply by virtue of being designed around a recent set of crash test standards. The compact cars of today outperform the mid sized and luxury sedans of the 90's and the 80's handily in modern crash testing. Even 5 years make a big difference.

[Little Wing]

25. Sell all new cars completly free of gasoline. Make the new owners

push it to the gas station.

Problem solved.

[slackmaster]

40. I drive an SUV and have a spotless driving record

I don't crash into things.

If you don't like the fact that my bumper is too high for you to safely crash into it, then don't crash into it.

[seabeyond]

44. but even if you did have an "accident" which i think still exists

i wouldnt have the need to make you feel guilt over your choice of vehicle, even though it may automatically cause more damage to me and mine. it would be the point of shit happens. even if you are at fault, yet, without intent.

[slackmaster]

50. Genuine accidents are very, very rare

Most collisions are caused by negligence, or by aggressive driving.

All I ask you to do is take some responsibility for your behavior.

;-)

[seabeyond]

51. accidents in and of themselves suggest some type of distractions.

ergo a possibility of avoidance. but....since all people at al times can not be perfectly aware, hence the arrival of the word accident. the intent not to hurt, but through reason, shit happened.

i can easily take responsibility. as i hope you do. but i cannot state perfection, as i know you equally cannot do.

[rebel with a cause]

48. Drive what you will,

But I would like to drive behind you with a vehicle that is higher, like yours is to my sedan, and have you blinded by the headlights hitting the real view mirror. Something that use to happen to me all the time when I drove more.

[slackmaster]

49. You aren't supposed to look in the mirror if there's a blinding light in it

Jeez, learn some driving skills already.

;-)

[seabeyond]

53. right and i am not suppose to look forward as your raised head lights meet

my eyes perfectly cause in a car i sit lower. nothing like taking personal responsibility huh.

[slackmaster]

60. I get headlights shining toward my face all the time

My SUV isn't a large one. There are plenty of vans, pickups, larger SUVs, buses, and trucks on the road. Not to mention twits who drive with their high beams on in the city.

nothing like taking personal responsibility huh.

I have the sense not to look into the light. You should take some responsibility and learn to do the same.

[seabeyond]

64. i handle it well. but that isnt what we were talking about, me turning

head to not be blinded. no.... i dont get a cars light in my eyes. yes the other big vehicles beam hits into the drivers window. of course i handle it. gotta remember, i am the one embracing you making your choice regardless of the difficulty it may cause a car driver. you are the one saying take personal responsiblity. yet you continue to deny any responsiblity for the hardship your vehicle may cause others.

easier just to say, ya.... but i love my suv. cant do it can you?

[slackmaster]

65. I have a love-hate relationship with my SUV

It's great to drive on and off the road, but costs a lot of money to keep running.

[seabeyond]

66. i say enjoy. nothin like spending a lot of money

to only feel guilty about it. i am not into that either. hubby likes to drive off road too and i understand why he enjoys it. my oldest brother gets those huge ass trucks and i know that is as much a part of him as anything else. i really am not into people feeling guilt.

[rebel with a cause]

79. Okay, lets talk about it

Are you a city dweller? Then you have no idea, probably, what I am talking about. I live in pick up truck (four wheel drive)country. Guys who think they are toby keith or other "so called" country boys/cowboys. I live in red neck country.

This area is made up of towns separated by rural areas, farms and such. Here if you do not have a car, then you are in trouble. We have to drive almost every where we go. I live in a tiny town that is located square between two larger towns. We have to drive to one of these towns for most of our needs including jobs. I live in this town because the rent is about half of what it is in the larger towns. Seven miles of four lane highway is what takes me to the grocery store and fifteen miles takes me to the doctor.

Four lane highways mean that you can pass anyone who is not driving fast enough to please you, but it is nothing unusual for one of these SUV or pick up trucks to get on your bumper and stay there: mile after mile. It is a game. A dick measuring game perhaps, but it is still a game to them. I seldom drive anymore due to my health, but let me tell you, my children have the same problem. Other people here also complain of having this problem. I cannot take responsibility for what these idiots do, and I won't.

If I could afford to buy a mini van I would because it would make transporting a wheel chair a lot easier, and entering and exiting the vehicle less painful for me. I wouldn't even mind having a small suv for wheel chair transportation, but I think they are harder to enter. It is not the smaller vans and SUVs that bother me, it is the drivers who have the attitude that their 'wheels' make them superior to the rest of us and show no concern for the others that have to share the road with them.

[slackmaster]

98. I live in a suburb and drive on country roads frequently

,,,it is nothing unusual for one of these SUV or pick up trucks to get on your bumper and stay there: mile after mile. It is a game. A dick measuring game perhaps, but it is still a game to them.

I never drive like that. I am very courteous, take driving seriously, and do not play childish games behind the wheel.

...It is not the smaller vans and SUVs that bother me, it is the drivers who have the attitude that their 'wheels' make them superior to the rest of us and show no concern for the others that have to share the road with them.

I know what you mean. We have plenty of asshole drivers in the city, too. They don't all drive vans or SUVs; many are in large pickup trucks or fancy passenger cars.

[rebel with a cause]

75. I wear my sunglasses at night, I wear my sunglasses at night.

You don't have to look in the mirror to have it reflect back in to your face when a SUV or truck with huge tires is riding your bumper. Jeez, you don't know much about reflection of light do you.

It is not me that needs driving skills. It is dummies like you that think you own the road and try to intimidate people in smaller vehicles by riding their bumpers.

[slackmaster]

99. Again, there are plenty of vehicles large enough to get light in my face

Large SUVs, some vans, big pickup trucks, buses, and trucks.

It is not me that needs driving skills. It is dummies like you that think you own the road and try to intimidate people in smaller vehicles by riding their bumpers.

How rude. Argumentum ad hominem makes a poor substitute for reasoned debate, and you don't know jack shit about my driving habits - I do not tailgate!

But your response is typical of the kind of bigotry one finds on DU: I tell you only that I drive an SUV, so you assume I drive like an asshole.

[rebel with a cause]

108. Sorry about that but

my rudeness was a direct response to your rudeness to me in an earlier post where you accused me of being a bad driver. But I should have been the bigger person and resisted answering back.

As for the bigotry. Even if I hated you for driving a SUV, which I don't, I would not be a bigot. I would be prejudice against SUV drivers. Bigotry is something entirely different.

You said "I tell you only that I drive an SUV, so you assume I drive like an asshole."

Perhaps, in my haste to get a short response posted, I did not make myself clear. When I stated (in my original post) that I was blinded by the lights reflecting in my rear view mirror because of SUVs (and pick up trucks with big wheels)riding my bumper, I did not mean you personally. I did not assume you were an asshole, or drove like one, I meant that drivers of these vehicles should be aware of this problem and be considerate enough to keep a safe space between their vehicle and the car ahead of them. I know I did not say that exactly, but I have taken almost an hour to do this one as I try to be clear in everything I write.

Edited to add: Okay, went back and read all the post and do apoligize for the wording of my post, because I definately didn't say what I meant. I was a bit harsh in my original post.

We have been looking for a used vehicle and SUVs are almost all there is in our price range. We can't afford one because of the gas, but then I guess that is why there are so many of them up for sale. If I could afford one, a smaller one would probably be my choice after a mini-van due to needing room for transporting a wheel chair and other medical equipment necessary for me to go anywhere for more than a few hours.

As far as I'm concerned this is over with. I am not angry at you and I really don't hate anyone over their vehicle choice. I am more intelligent than that. Peace to you and have a Happy Holiday.

[lectrobyte]

52. Do you have one of these bumper stickers?

[slackmaster]

58. No, I drive a medium size SUV

And have no shortage of penis.

[lectrobyte]

62. Sorry, I had to ask, you did seem to go out of your way to add

in a comment about your bumper height.

[slackmaster]

63. Your lack of bumper height, or penis size, is not MY problem

;-)

[lectrobyte]

67. Too funny, thanks!

[ComerPerro]

54. Ironic, isn't it? The only thing that makes them unsafe is assholes in large cars

[slackmaster]

61. So, everyone who drives a large car is automatically an asshole?

What kinds of cars do your Senators and Representative drive?

[benEzra]

104. Less safe in collisions with Corollas and Civics, too...

as well as less safe in single-vehicle collisions, per IHHS. In other words, less safe across the board, and you don't get much more efficiency in return:

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html

Crash test results indicate which vehicles in each weight category afford the best protection in real-world crashes, and this round of tests reveals big differences among the smallest cars. But results of real crashes show that any car that's very small and light isn't the best choice in terms of safety. Driver death rates in minicars are higher than in any other vehicle category. They're more than double the death rates in midsize and large cars.

"People traveling in small, light cars are at a disadvantage, especially when they collide with bigger, heavier vehicles. The laws of physics dictate this," says Institute president Adrian Lund. Death rates in single-vehicle crashes also are higher in smaller vehicles than in bigger ones.

. . .

People often choose to buy very light cars for fuel economy but "you don't have to buy the smallest, lightest car to get one that's easy on fuel consumption," Lund points out. "Models including the Honda Civic, not even the hybrid version, and Toyota Corolla are bigger than the minicars we tested and weigh more, so we would expect better occupant protection in serious crashes. At the same time, these and other small car models get nearly as good fuel economy as minicars."

. . .

FUEL ECONOMY
Miles per gallon: minicars versus small and midsize cars


Minicars

Toyota Yaris 34/39
Honda Fit 31/37
Scion xB 30/34
Hyundai Accent 28/37
Chevrolet Aveo 26/34
Mini Cooper 26/34


Small cars

Toyota Prius (hybrid) 60/51
Honda Civic (hybrid) 49/51
Honda Civic 30/40
Toyota Corolla 30/38
Nissan Versa 30/36
Nissan Sentra 29/36
Hyundai Elantra 28/36
Chevrolet Cobalt 24/32


Midsize cars

Honda Accord 24/34
Hyundai Sonata 24/33
Toyota Camry 24/33

[devilgrrl]

59. Even worse... They're fuel efficient!

Oh the humanity!:sarcasm:

What a pile of crap! :eyes:

[Strelnikov_]

68. Considering That Each Of These SUV's That Hit The Road Today

will be there for 16 years, is it too much to ask that we are a little proactive?

Once the crises hits, each year we will only be able to replace 17 M of the 210 M cars and light trucks currently on the road (assuming the factories have the resources to produce).

[mainegreen]

72. Yet almost all accidents I see involve mostly SUVs.

Could it be because SUVs drive like shit and couldn't handle their way out of a wet paper bag let alone avoid an accident? I know my tiny little car has avoided many an accident just by virtue of it's wonderful ability to rapidly change direction, start, stop and avoid flipping over like some form of four wheeled mexican jumping bean. Maybe you're safer in an accident in a SUV, but that does *not* mean you're safer in an SUV.

[ContraBass Black]

78. Which cars?

[kestrel91316]

80. Wrong. Giant SUV's unsafe - for everyone who's not in one.

[lonestarnot]

81. It's been done.

[aikoaiko]

83. My Scion XB got 4 out of 5. phew.

[lynne]

85. How would 18 wheel tractor & trailers and fully loaded dump trucks -

- fit into your equation? Loaded trucks are certainly far heavier than any SUV and bumper height is much higher. As trucks cannot be eliminated from using the highway, anyone choosing to drive/ride in a mini-car does so knowing that there is a possibility of an accident with a larger vehicle and a greater chance of serious injury and death. It stands to reason that an occupant in a mini-car will sustain greater bodily injury when involved in a collision with ANY vehicle than will an occupant in a larger vehicle.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has been doing crash tests on vehicles for years. Their findings for mini-cars can be found here: http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html

[NV1962]

88. It's precisely the OTHER way round...

SUVs are more prone to accidents, that are also more lethal.

And that's pure and simple a matter of driver stupidity - because the danged thing is taken out on the road as a "fort on wheels" that confers some imaginary invulnerability.

Ask the host of killed pedestrians.

So, if ultra-compacts are more vulnerable to onstorming SUVs and crashing down homes dropping from hurricanes, yet strangely it's the SUVs that do the lethal damage, it's time to look at the SUVs.

They may be major advertisers - but imagine how many more products you can market to a LIVE audience...

Effing morons.

[benEzra]

95. From the report...

In every vehicle category (car, SUV, or pickup truck), the risk of crash death is higher in the smaller, lighter models.

It's not just SUV's, and not just collisions with SUV's. A 2000-pound car will not protect you as well in a collision with a 3500-pound minivan or sedan as a 2500- or 3000-pound car will.

In terms of mileage, the tiny cars don't have much of an advantage over heavier compacts and midsize cars, if you look at the IHHS fuel mileage table in the link above.

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html

FUEL ECONOMY
Miles per gallon: minicars versus small and midsize cars


Minicars

Toyota Yaris 34/39
Honda Fit 31/37
Scion xB 30/34
Hyundai Accent 28/37
Chevrolet Aveo 26/34
Mini Cooper 26/34


Small cars

Toyota Prius (hybrid) 60/51
Honda Civic (hybrid) 49/51
Honda Civic 30/40
Toyota Corolla 30/38
Nissan Versa 30/36
Nissan Sentra 29/36
Hyundai Elantra 28/36
Chevrolet Cobalt 24/32


Midsize cars

Honda Accord 24/34
Hyundai Sonata 24/33
Toyota Camry 24/33

Notes: Miles per gallon are for cars with automatic or continuously variable transmissions. Midsize cars have 4-cylinder engines.

[benEzra]

93. Three issues here--bumper height, cost, and mass.

Bumper height (and headlight height) could easily be addressed by simply requiring that SUV's, pickups, minivans, and everything else have bumpers at car height. Be nice to require that their low-beam HEADLIGHTS (and the damn DRL's, #@?&!) be at car height also. That is the DOT's fault. If it's possible to make a KENWORTH (T2000) with car-height bumpers and lights, then there's no excuse for SUV's/pickups/vans having non-car-compatible bumpers and lights.

Second, small cars are often positioned by carmakers as CHEAP cars. Underpowered, flimsy structure, lousy brakes, skinny tires, fewer safety features. There's no reason a small car can't be made with adequate power, good brakes, grippy tires, and more safety features (see Volvo S40T5) except cost. And that's the rub--the target market for the Kia Rio and similar vehicles is people who can't afford a nicer car, so it's a catch-22.

One thing that IS incontrovertible, though, is mass. It doesn't matter how good your safety features are, if you hit another vehicle head-on at 30 mph, and that vehicle weighs twice as much as yours (minivan, SUV, large car, doesn't matter), then your vehicle will have twice the delta-V as theirs. Due to the conservation of momentum, you will experience the equivalent of a 40-mph impact into a brick wall, and they will experience the equivalent of a 20-mph impact into a brick wall, assuming an inelastic collision. Because kinetic energy is an exponential function, the safety systems in the small car will have to safely dissipate FOUR TIMES the occupant kinetic energy as the safety systems in the larger vehicle--meaning that super-lightweight cars, even ones with excellent safety systems, will generally not protect their occupants as well as heavier cars, even cars with second-rate systems. And as you go lighter, there comes a point where even the best safety systems in the world won't allow you to survive a collision with a 3800-pound vehicle that the other driver could walk away from. There is just no way to make a 1600-pound vehicle as safe as a 3200-pound vehicle in a multiple-vehicle collision.

My previous car weighed ~2800 pounds; my current car weighs just under 3800. Thanks to ten years of technology improvements, the mileage isn't much worse (30-35 mpg on the highway/low 20's around town, compared to 34/25) but the bigger one will do a HECK of a lot better if some yahoo in a 4500-pound pickup hits me, due to simple physics, not to mention the better safety systems.

[Bonobo]

96. Thanks for that great, informative post!

But it does not directly address the one I intended which is:

Shouldn't someone be held liable for building a dangerous vehicle with an inappropriate bumper height, cowcatcher-like extensions, dangerous mass, etc. that is in OPPOSITION to the (at that time) (de facto) accepted standard size for automobiles?

[benEzra]

100. Possibly...

but the IHHS report you cited was about the relative lack of safety of minicars compared to traditional compact and midsize cars, which would be just as true if every SUV in the U.S. vanished tomorrow. Minicars are just less safe in collisions with normal-sized vehicles than regular compact and midsize cars, which I believe was the IHHS's main point. Yes, that also makes them less safe in collisions with supersized SUV's, but those are (thankfully) a smaller and smaller part of the market.

FWIW, IHHS is anything but a schill for the auto industry.

As far as bumper height problems, that problem didn't start with SUV's, it started with pickups. It goes back to whatever genius (at DOT?) decided that pickups and vans should have higher bumpers and lights than cars--which in retrospect was idiotic.

[lies and propaganda]

109. well, when theyre compared to our Hummer driving idiots

I would say that less safe goes without saying when the car next to you is literally 5 or 6 times your size.

I wish we drove cute dorky little Euro cars, i love em.