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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:00 PM
Original message
Human Rights Watch summary on Venezuela
Since winning a national referendum on his presidency in 2004, Hugo Chávez and his majority coalition in Congress have taken steps to undermine the independence of the country’s judiciary by packing the Supreme Court with their allies. They have also enacted legislation that seriously threatens press freedoms and freedom of expression. Several high profile members of civil society have faced prosecution on highly dubious charges, and human rights defenders have been repeatedly accused by government officials of conspiring against the nation. Police violence, torture, and abusive prison conditions are also among the country’s most serious human rights problems.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. To be sure, many police forces in Venezuela aren't even pro-Chavez at all.
The worst human rights abuses have been committed by the police.

The context of laws dealing with the news media is that many of the outlets are simply guilty of treason under Venezuelan law for either supporting or blacking out information from the public during a violent military overthrow of the government.

Chavez is a lot of things, but he is not another Stalin. If that were the case, then there would be no corporate news outlets at all. They'd all be state-run operations controlled by the executive branch itself.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thank you for your thoughful response. n/t
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thingfisher Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Chavez is fighting battles onmany fronts.
Many who oppose him are the moneyed elites who have been in the pocket of corporate power for decades.
I will give him a lot of slack as he attempts to empower those who have been traditionally excluded. Time will tell if he will succumb to the corruption power so often brings. Judging by his enemies, I will stick with him.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds like what's happened in the US
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Which is why I'm planning on being a card-carrying member of the ACLU...
Edited on Thu Dec-07-06 03:08 PM by LoZoccolo
...when I get some money together to do it.

But it doesn't make it alright in other countries either.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yet many DUers cheer Chavez and jeer Bush
I suppose what Bush is doing would be ok if he were a left-winger rather than a right-winger.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Its one of life's great ironies
See you will now have people defending what Chavez does that, many think is a bit authoritarian.

Not that Chavez is the worst person by any stretch but the rationalization of his defenses are hilarious when compared to the slamming of Hillary(as a nanny state authoritarian) because she does a PSA about video game ratings.

Its why Obama saying we have to reach out to evanglicals is akin to being Judas but Chavez weaving christian themes throughout his speeches is praised as being in the Bolivarian Revolutionary tradition(which is actually true, doesn't make the guy saying he is leading you to the kingdom of christ any less of a nutjob but to each his own).







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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Don't you know that HRW and AI are neocon fronts!
At least that's what I have been told when they dare to criticize Castro or Chavez
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Human Rights Watch summary on the United States
Edited on Thu Dec-07-06 03:11 PM by Junkdrawer
The United States government has been widely condemned for violating basic human rights in the fight against terrorism. Since 2001, the Bush administration has authorized interrogation techniques widely considered torture, including by its own Department of State in its annual human rights reports. It has held an unknown number of detainees as “ghosts” beyond the reach of all monitors, including the International Committee of the Red Cross. And it has become the only government in the world to seek legislative sanction to treat detainees inhumanely.

In addition to focusing on U.S. counterterrorism practices, Human Rights Watch in 2005 continued to work on other pressing human rights concerns in the United States, including abysmal prison conditions, continued use of the death penalty, racial disparities (brought to public consciousness in 2005 by Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath), and increasingly restrictive asylum and other immigration policies.


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/usdom12292.htm

And don't even get me started on Finland and Sweden...
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. ...and? n/t
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. But what about Venezuela?
That's kind of the subject of the thread. "The U.S. is bad too" isn't really relelvant.

I once cheered Chavez on, now...I don't know. Packing courts and clamping down on free expression are the kinds of things I expect U.S. proxies to do in South America, not populist heroes.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. You can't trust anybody anymore....
How can anybody stand up for the right-wing press. It's beyond me.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Boo hoo.
There are even some FReepers who'll tell you that their free speech is yours as well.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. To Its Credit, Sir, Human Rights Watch Criticizes Just About Everyone
This report is pretty mild indeed. It would be hard to point to a country in the world that did not have some problem with lawless policemen and prison conditions.

Conspicuously absent from the report are the traditional charges of murder, "disappearance", and routine torture of Col. Chavez' political opponents. A handful of open prosecutions under established law, pressed however hard, are not an acceptable substitute to establish solid ground for high dudgeon.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Thank you!
While there are several things I'd LIKE to say in response to the OP, I'm not about to jeopardize my DU membership just to vent my spleen.

Yours is by far the better response.

My sincere appreciation and admiration,
sw
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Thank you for pointing that out. Viva Chavez!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Also missing - the OP's oft-repeated LIE that Chavez is a dictator.
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 12:08 AM by Zhade
Of course, intelligent people understand that the Carter Center, OAS and UN do NOT sign off on dictators' elections.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. Eh. Anything new?
This has been posted more than once. Is that all ya got?
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Mexico makes Venezuela look like Shangri-La right now
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. Your point being?
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The point being, as always, the ongoing campaign to discredit the Left. (nt)
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. You have no idea what my point is.
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 11:24 AM by LoZoccolo
Care to explain why I'd compare his tactics to a right-wing president here if I was trying to discredit the left before you throw this kind of accusation out?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. A Few Small Points, Mr. LoZoccolo
The question of Col. Chavez and his rule of Venezuela has several distinct components as an issue, and it seems to me wise to seperate these out when people here take stands in this matter.

One element is that of the domestic politics of the United States itself. There remains something of a hang-over among the people of our country from the Cold War, that inclines a great many to a dislike of foreign leftists, as these would have been in those days certainly enough allies sooner or later of the Soviets. The number of people readily moved in this direction is larger than the number readily moved to support of such figures, and therefore it does not bother me much if a Democratic Party politician makes occassional noises of distancing or even denunciation of Col. Chavez: that is how the game is played. The issue really has very little impact on U.S. politics, so it is a cheap way to gain some armor against standard rightist attack lines. Nor does it bother me that a Democrat does not share my views on the matter, but views Col. Chavez with disfavor: my view is that such persons are in their hearts un-reconstructed Cold War sorts, and being myself someone who viewed the Soviets as well worth fighting, this strikes me as perfectly understandable. But it is a fact that the Cold War is over. The rise of a left government, even a radical left government, in some other land is not today an added increment of power and global influence to the Soviet Union. This removes, in my view, any real legitimate interest of the United States in the matter: even if one opposes such governments on principle, the over-riding American principle that people get to hie themselves to Hell by the conveyance and route of their own choice seems to me to supercede in such a matter. Put bluntly, it simply is not our business what political choices other countries make, or what political developments they acquiesce in, providing these do not pose a real threat of violence against our country.

One element is that of whether the rule and programs of Col. Chavez are good for the people of Venezuela or not, or popular with the people of Venezuela or not. It seems to me that the answer is yes on both counts. Venezuela is a country that has long been afflicted with grotesque disparities of wealth, with a great majority of its people mired in circumstances that offer no prospect of anything hard work in life-long poverty. There is no doubt that Col. Chavez has in some small but measureable degree improved the condition of this poverty-mired mass of his country's people. Both diet and education among the poor of Venezuela have improved under his rule, and there is every prospect this will continue. It is abundantly clear that he enjoys the deep allegiance of the greatest proportion of Venezuela's people, by every available measure from the loyalty of conscripts in the armed forces durng an attempted coup against him to the total of votes in his various campaigns for office. Even if one were to accept for purposes of arguement a characterization of him as a dictator, it could still not be denied that he is a very popular dictator, and it is an interesting point for debate whether a genuinely and widely popular dictator is in fact an anti-democratic phenomenon: if one accepts as a base definition of democracy that the will of the majority of the people is the animating element of their government, an excellent case could be made that such a dictator is not an anti-democratic figure, though he might not be the best possible expression of democracy.

One element is the actual state of political and social affairs in Venezuela. There is no doubt that Col. Chavez is a revoutionist, and that the alterations he seeks to make in Venezuela's social and economic life are revolutionary ones. Where-ever there is revolution, there will be counter-revolution, for revolution cannot be made to the of the benefit of some without stripping existing advantage from others, and these latter naturally will resist losing advantages they possess, and owing to these very advantages, they will be well placed to make effective resistance in their own interest. It is, therefore, a mistake to read political events in Venezuela today as if they were about the same thing as, say, a parliamentary election in Europe, or the next Presidential cycle in the United States. They have no more similarity to these things than negotiations by diplomats have to combat on a battlefield. That both the revolutionary and the counter-revolutionaries in Venezuela are conducting themselves in an unusually civil fashion, so that the process has been a largely bloodless one over the past several years, should not blind any observer to the fact that it is indeed a revolutionary struggle, and both sides are pressing it with full awareness that is what it is. Either the revolution will prevail, and the old order be overthrown to be remade into something the mass of Venezuela's disadvantaged desire, or the counter-revolution will prevail, and the old order be re-imposed in a manner removing any potential threat to the priviliges and prerogatives of the small slice of persons that has traditionally held the reins, and reaped the profits, of its economic structure.

"Revolution is not a tea party."
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. Have you checked out their summary of US ally Colombia lately?
Edited on Thu Dec-07-06 09:29 PM by 0rganism
The reason I ask is your vendetta against Chavez seems disproportionate. If all you want to do is point to flaws in the "sacred cows" of the left, I doubt you'll have difficulty establishing the fact that Chavez isn't a saint. Heck, I don't like any of that shit when it happens here, why would I approve of it in Venezuela?

But what any halfway fair, quick analysis would consider is where Venezuela is now compared to pre-Chavez, and compared to US proxies like Uribe's Colombia -- which is right next door to Venezuela!

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/colomb12206.htm

Colombia

Colombia presents the most serious human rights and humanitarian situation in the region. Battered by an internal armed conflict involving government forces, guerrilla groups, and paramilitaries, the country has one of the largest populations of internally displaced persons in the world.

Colombia’s irregular armed groups, both guerrillas and paramilitaries, are responsible for the bulk of the human rights violations, which in 2005 included massacres, killings, forced disappearances, kidnappings, torture, and extortion. Despite ongoing negotiations with the government, paramilitary groups repeatedly committed abuses in breach of their cease-fire declaration.

Members of the armed forces have at times been implicated in abuses, independently or in collaboration with paramilitaries. Impunity for such crimes, particularly when they involve high-ranking military officers, remains a serious problem. Ties between military units and paramilitary groups persist, and the government has yet to take credible action to break the
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. I wonder if that HRW summary was written before February 2006.
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 02:57 AM by ronnie624
Venezuelan Opposition Case Thrown Out of International Criminal Court

By: Alex Holland – Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, Venezuela, February 17, 2006—The International Criminal Court (ICC) rejected an appeal by Venezuelan opposition groups to prosecute the Venezuelan government for human rights violations. Chief Prosecutor for the ICC, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said the charges had a, “lack of precision as well as internal and external inconsistencies in the information.”

The ICC was set up by international treaty in 1998. Its purpose is to deal with the most serious human rights violations such as war crimes or crimes against humanity. Venezuela signed up to the ICC in June 2000.

Charges were first brought to the court in 2003 by Venezuelan lawyers representing Venezuelans associated with the opposition. The lawyers argued that they had suffered crimes against humanity at the hands of the Venezuelan government.

Most of the crimes they say they suffered were during the April 2002 coup, when Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his government were briefly removed from power before being restored days later by the military and popular protests.

On February 9, the ICC issued a statement saying the court was unable to move forward with a formal investigation. This was because the information provided did not match the allegations.
<http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1900>


(Edited for clarity)
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