Why Americans Will Believe Almost Anything

[madmusic]

by Dr. Tim O'Shea (http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/)

We are the most conditioned, programmed beings the world has ever known. Not only are our thoughts and attitudes continually being shaped and molded; our very awareness of the whole design seems like it is being subtly and inexorably erased.

The doors of our perception are carefully and precisely regulated. Who cares, right?

It is an exhausting and endless task to keep explaining to people how most issues of conventional wisdom are scientifically implanted in the public consciousness by a thousand media clips per day. In an effort to save time, I would like to provide just a little background on the handling of information in this country.

Once the basic principles are illustrated about how our current system of media control arose historically, the reader might be more apt to question any given story in today's news.

If everybody believes something, it's probably wrong.
We call that Conventional Wisdom.

In America, conventional wisdom that has mass acceptance is usually contrived: somebody paid for it. Examples:

* Pharmaceuticals restore health
* Vaccination brings immunity
* The cure for cancer is just around the corner
* When a child is sick, he needs immediate antibiotics
* When a child has a fever he needs Tylenol
* Hospitals are safe and clean.
* America has the best health care in the world.
* And many many more

This is a list of illusions, that have cost billions and billions to conjure up. Did you ever wonder why you never see the President speaking publicly unless he is reading? Or why most people in this country think generally the same about most of the above issues?

more: http://country-liberal-party.com/pages/mob-psychology.htm

More good stuff. How were women convinced smoking was good for them? What's the deal with "Make the World Safe for Democracy"? How did bacon for breakfast become popular?

[patrice]

1. Pavlov's dogs.

[phoebe]

32. and Edward Bernays

there was a very good series of videos on You Tube re: Edward Bernays - it's worth a look unless it's been removed due to copyright issues.

[madmusic]

37. Thanks! Found one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ8ZvYNlxiM

Not sure if that's all.

[madmusic]

39. How to Brainwash a Nation The whole series!

http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/09sep/ebernays.html

[madmusic]

77. Just wondering. Did anyone check out this Documentary at Google Video?

Were you as shocked as I was? What shocked me was that what I always thought was true, WAS/IS TRUE!

I can put the tin foil away now.

No kidding.

[MoseyWalker]

2. I don't agree with everything here, but

intriguing.

[madmusic]

18. Compare these two:

From p. 1 of this link:

Characteristics Of Good Propaganda

As the science of mass control evolved, PR firms developed further guidelines for effective copy. Here are some of the gems:

* dehumanize the attacked party by labeling and name calling
* speak in glittering generalities using emotionally positive words
* when covering something up, don't use plain English; stall for time; distract
* get endorsements from celebrities, churches, sports figures, street people - anyone who has no expertise in the subject at hand
* the 'plain folks' ruse: us billionaires are just like you
* when minimizing outrage, don't say anything memorable, point out the benefits of what just happened, and avoid moral issues

Keep this list. Start watching for these techniques. Not hard to find - look at today's paper or tonight's TV news. See what they're doing; these guys are good!

With this:

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/examples.newt.html">How Newt Gingrich used these techniques

This example occurred more than ten years ago, but it is one of the most striking applications of propaganda techniques in recent memory. A popular Republican politician on his way to the top, Newt Gingrich clearly understood the power of propaganda. His political action committee (GOPAC) mailed a pamphlet entitled Language, A Key Mechanism of Control to Republicans across the country. The booklet offered rhetorical advice to Republican candidates who wanted to "speak like Newt." It was subsequently awarded a Doublespeak Award by the National Conference of Teachers of English in 1990.

The booklet contained two lists of words. GOP candidates were instructed to use one set of "positive, governing words," (glittering generalities) when speaking about themselves. A second set of negative words (name-calling words) were to be used against their opponents.

* View the glittering generalities.
* View the name-calling words.

A brief glance at the words on Gingrich's lists suggests that they continue to be powerful tools in American political discourse. Words such as "vision, courage, lead, learn, commitment, empower, and freedom" are common to politicians on all sides of the political spectrum. Call-in radio hosts regularly use words like "ideological, liberal, bureaucracy, crisis, endanger, and lie" to discredit certain ideas.

Newt thought it would work, and it did.

[novalib]

3. OTHERS!!!

GREAT POST, madmusic!!

Here are some OTHER THINGS Americans are conditioned to believe:

Microwave cooking is safe!

You NEED a Car.

You NEED an SUV.

You GOTTA HAVE a GREEN LAWN!!

Your DREAM is to OWN A HOUSE WITH A THREE-CAR GARAGE!!

Use DETERGENT to clean your clothes or they will not be clean!!!

Use DETERGENT to clean your dishes, or you will get SICK!!!

YOU NEED A DISHWASHER!!!!!!

and on and on and on........

[madmusic]

7. I believed these two...

Use DETERGENT to clean your clothes or they will not be clean!!!

Use DETERGENT to clean your dishes, or you will get SICK!!!

If not, how to do it?

[novalib]

22. Alternatives to Detergent

Alternatives to detergents include

Baking Soda.

Soap (which is different from detergents).

Detergents are CHEMICALS that POLLUTE the water supplies!!

Those LONG-LASTING bubbles REALLY DO last a LONG, LONG TIME -- right into the water supply!!!

[madmusic]

23. Thanks, I'll google and improve, promise. n/t

[Odin2005]

27. soap is technically a type of detergent, that is, a surfactant chemical

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detergent

Sometimes the word "detergent" is used in distinction to "soap". For a while during the infancy of other surfactants as commercial detergent products, the term "syndet", short for "synthetic detergent" was promoted to indicate this, but never caught on very well, and is incorrect in any event because soap is itself synthesized via saponification of glycerides. The term "soapless soap" also saw a brief vogue. Unfortunately there is no accurate term for detergents not made of soap other than "soapless detergent" or "non-soap detergent".

Also, the term "detergent" is sometimes used for surfactants in general, even when they are not used for cleaning. As can be seen above, this too is terminology that should be avoided as long as the term "surfactant" itself is available.

Technically plain water, if used for cleaning, is a detergent. Probably the most widely used detergents other than water are soaps or mixtures composed chiefly of soaps. However, not all soaps have significant detergency. Often the word "soap" is used to indicate any detergent, especially those that have characteristics similar to those of soap. It contains a glycrine molecule.




IMO the problem is that we just use TOO MUCH detergent. My mom gave me the advice of always using half the amount the directions say.

[phoebe]

29. detergent isn't needed unless one has some heavy soiling other than sweat

on the clothing. Sweat is usually why most of us wash our clothes - simple cold/warm water will wash it right out.

[lonestarnot]

38. eeek! What about the stank?

[phoebe]

68. and the "stank" too..!! Put a couple of drops of 7th generation in there

if you must but it's not necessary and if you can, line dry clothes to slightly damp stage in sunlight and then iron..

[Odin2005]

17. Microwave cooking isn't safe? Bull.

All a microwave oven does is using radio waves to heat the water in the food, therefore cooking it, I don't see how that is unsafe.

Why don't you anti-technology absolutists quit telling people how to live?

[novalib]

21. WTF???!!!

Just WHO IN THE HELL is telling ANYONE how to live????!!!!

I certainly AM NOT!!!!

If you want to use microwaves (which are UNSAFE!!), be my guest.

[madmusic]

24. I use them and don't want to know how they are dangerous.

I'd starve to death. That's more dangerous.

[Odin2005]

28. Someone needs to take a chill pill.

:eyes:

[Alexander]

47. Got evidence that microwaves are unsafe?

You're two posts into your definite, exclamatory stance that microwaves can cause health problems, and your Caps Lock button seems to be broken.

Any evidence for this, or should we DUers just treat this as unsupported ranting?

[NashVegas]

73. I Don't Know About Microwaved Food, In Itself

But I do know these things:

Microwaved food is generally inferior to other cooking methods. For sauces that demand constant or regular stirring, microwaves suck.

For reheating meat, microwaves suck (rubbery).

For reheating pasta, microwaves suck.

Frozen or other foods designed for microwave cooking generally have way more synthesized chemicals than anything you can fix by traditional methods.

[boolean]

52. LOL!

Maybe if you stick your head in one and get it to cook....

What do you think, they're radioactive or something?

:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

36. it's not unsafe, but it destroys nutrients...

well, at least in broccoli:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/106558884/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Clear disadvantages were detected when broccoli was microwaved, namely high losses of flavonoids (97%), sinapic acid derivatives (74%) and caffeoyl-quinic acid derivatives (87%). Conventional boiling led to a significant loss of flavonoids (66%) from fresh raw broccoli, while high-pressure boiling caused considerable leaching (47%) of caffeoyl-quinic acid derivatives into the cooking water. On the other hand, steaming had minimal effects, in terms of loss, on both flavonoid and hydroxycinnamoyl derivative contents.

[NobleCynic]

54. Aye, most forms of cooking destroy nutrients

Some of us just can't stand steaming everything.

Variety in cuisine is the most important key to good health. Vitamins can't do it all. That and not eating restaurant sized portions in one siting. Good god portion size has become inflated.

[lonestarnot]

40. 3 square meals per day another.

[QuestionAll...]

76. looks like some mass consumpters of corporate talk showed up here...

of all places.

teehee (re: the blasts about microwave ovens)

:rofl:

[Mythsaje]

4. And, yes, before vaccinations

people actually DIED of smallpox, measles, and polio. And influenza.

More anti-medical luddite bullshit.

I can counter some of these stupid ass assertions one at a time.

* Pharmaceuticals restore health (Usually drugs just deal with the symptoms, but, in many cases, this is STILL better than leaving the victim to suffer).

* Vaccination brings immunity (It sure the FUCK does something).

* The cure for cancer is just around the corner (Maybe. I think we're getting closer all the time).

* When a child is sick, he needs immediate antibiotics (Depends on the illness. You can't treat viruses with anti-biotics. Well, you can, but that would mean you were an idiot).

* When a child has a fever he needs Tylenol (It's useful if you're concerned about TOO high a fever, or to relieve pain. Of course, you could just stand there and laugh at the child for having a headache, but then I'd have to give YOU a headache).

* Hospitals are safe and clean. (Diseases are all over hospitals, which leads me to believe we should have separate Trauma Centers, Disease Centers, and Birth Centers).

* America has the best health care in the world. (If you can PAY for it, sure).

[jgraz]

6. Plus bacon is yummy

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[madmusic]

8. That better be a breakfast plate, or...

It'll be something else.

[Mythsaje]

9. Usually too salty...for me eom

[jgraz]

12. Try Niman Ranch Uncured -- awesome [eom]

[madmusic]

10. See, he's talking about absolutist propaganda,

And you saying that might not always be true supports his point. The article itself doesn't dwell on the truth of these, but explores how they became popular.

[Mythsaje]

13. It probably doesn't help that I don't believe in absolutes

to begin with, so that just confuses me...

[madmusic]

14. Oh, well...

Not sure what to tell ya. Here, have a piece of bacon.

[NashVegas]

74. That's Too Bad

Not all that long ago, "conventional wisdom" was that Hormone Replacement Therapy was the best thing to happen to women since the vibrator.

And yet, as far back as 1989/1990 or so, alternative weeklies (this was when they were still alternative and hadn't consolidated up the ying-yang) were carrying reports that it was bad news and there were cancer links.

Conventional wisdom propagandists said, "hogwash," right up until about four years ago when the link was so indisputable the NIH studies were halted in progress, due to cancer AND heart risks.

Anytime an "absolute" goes on the attack against a challenge to conventional wisdom, it's safe to assume there's corporate income at risk.

[KitSileya]

67. Actually, when it comes to antibiotics,

he's got a point. In many cases of infections in children, the use of antibiotics won't shorten the progress of the illness. I'm not saying that no cases of ear infections and other infections like them should be treated with antibiotics, but in most, it isn't necessary. I think the UK has had great success in giving out wait and see prescriptions - i.e., they give prescriptions for antibiotics, but also instruct them to only use them if they're not better in 3 days. They cut the antibiotic use by 70%, IIRC. The trouble is with parents who demand that the doctors give medication to their sick children, just so that something is being done, while doctors cave to them. This has led to reduced efficiency in many strains of antibiotics, and the development of resistent strains of bacteria. If we can't turn the trend, we'll end up in a pre-penicillin state before long.

[Richard Steele]

5. There is no spoon.

[AZCat]

11. Plus, it's finger food.

Not like those slippery scrambled eggs...

[niallmac]

15. Putting 'Dr' in front of your name when you are a chiropractor is another

propaganda trick too! How many people will look to see what kind of 'doctor' your are.
I have been googling Tim O'Shea and see that he has been very active in the fight against
vaccinations. See, Apparently Tim mixes his real axes in with the general peeves of man
to get the crowds sympathy. Good propaganda trick that.

I unfortunately did not find a treatise by Tim on Polio and how it works against the general
interest of society. I haven't found anything very positiver about small pox either but
then with these diseases having been nearly eradicated by uh, magic, I guess I'll just
concentrate on the near hysterical climate of anti vaccination sites on the web.

[madmusic]

19. Ad Hominem fallacy

What does that have to do with it? If he said he was a heart specialist in the article then you could call him a liar. That still wouldn't prove the thesis on propaganda was wrong.

[niallmac]

58. I think it has a lot to do with it.

The CDC is not run by chiropractors. No recognized authorities in the field of immunology,
infectious disease for example are chiropractors.

Chiropracty is not based on science. It claims to have discovered a connection with
almost any malady and 'spondylotherapy' or spinal manipulation.

Since 'Dr' in this case means 'doctor in a field that I am not alone in viewing as
legalized charlatanism then 'what kind of Dr' he is has a lot to do with it.

On the other side of the coin. What do you call a medical student who graduates
with a 'D' average?..Doctor. If I am on the floor at the Mall suffering from a heart
attack I do not want an ophthalmologist working on me. I want the Junior College
grad who is a professional paramedic taking care of me.

If it is 'proven' that vaccines do more harm than good and that the experiences
of the past are all false then I will be the first to say I am wrong but for now
when one espouses non vaccination whole cloth to the public, well, I would
not want the responsibility for being wrong.

[madmusic]

64. Point taken.

And it's a good one. However, the article is about brainwashing and propaganda, not medical advise. This is my fault because I left the link to his site in even though his medical views really have nothing to do with the thread.

Even if he is a terrible doctor of any kind, his research on propaganda seems sound, and has been confirmed overall from other sources, such as the Edward Bernays links above (and thanks again, phoebe, I knew nothing of him before).

So I chalk this misunderstanding up to my bad OP that didn't make the focus of the subject clear enough. My bad.

[niallmac]

70. Well...thanks!

;) Seriously I do appreciate your understanding on this
one aspect of your post that covered many other intriguing subjects and in return
I have to say I am no drum beater of 'traditional medicine'. I think there
is a lot our deductive approach misses in the realm of cure and
promotion of health.
Some days I get up regretting the previous nights posting frenzy
and sort of wince when I look to see what the replies are.

Regards to you
Niall

[madmusic]

75. You had every right to post as you did...

Based on your understanding of the OP. And you aren't the only one who understood it that way.

No hard feelings and no reason to regret anything. That's what debate is all about!

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Odin2005]

16. Riiiiight, and people were just fine and dandy before vaccines...

:eyes:

You anti-modern medicine fools need to talk with my grandmother, who had five siblings who died of TB before thier 1st birthday.

[madmusic]

20. The article is not about vaccines.

Did you read it? And there still isn't a safe, reliable vaccine for TB. Sorry to hear about your grandmother's siblings, but we still need to concentrate on TB like we did with AIDS. TB kills far more people. In fact, is it a major killer of those with AIDS.

[Odin2005]

26. Your post said "vaccines bring immunity" was an illusion.

[madmusic]

31. That would depend on the definition of "immunity"

I'm not sure if vaccine antibodies are technically the same as immunity or not, so that sentence may or may not be factual.

But the article is about the creation of these ideas. It's really about critical thinking. So the real point of the article would be to Google "vaccine" and "immune" and find out rather than take anyone's word for it. That's why I Googled first before saying there isn't a good vaccine for TB yet. Thought not, but wasn't positive. :) Some TB strains are themselves building an immunity to the TB medicines. It's getting worse, not better.

[WindRavenX]

69. well, for starters...

I'm not sure if vaccine antibodies are technically the same as immunity or not, so that sentence may or may not be factual.


Vaccines are either live or weakened viruses or antigens that stimulate the immune system. TB is building immunity due to natural selection because we are using anti-biotics-- NOT vaccines.

on edit:

Here's a good link on how vaccines and immunity work: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/ID00023

[madmusic]

71. Thanks. It's been a long while since reading any of that.

A good refresher should, well, refresh the ol' memory.

[WindRavenX]

25. don't bother

Their heads are deep in the sand....

[madmusic]

33. Did you read the article?

The funny thing is, this article was a hit when Googling "mob psychology." The irony!

The mob jumps before checking.

[WindRavenX]

49. sorry, the Dr. in question is a quack

He isn't to be taken seriously.

Further, some people in the thread are insuating that microwaves are dangerous-- which is completely false.

[madmusic]

53. Understood... and that kind of threw the thread off..

It happens. Quack or not, he's right about the brainwashing. Even Quacks, like broken clocks, can be right once a day.

[treestar]

30. I don't think those are the illusions

The illusions are more like:

You have to be thin, to a point where you need to spend money to be able to get there - the whole diet and cosmetic surgery industry.

You have to be wearing certain clothes - fashion as dictated by whoever it is who dictates it.

You have to buy a house.

You have to go to college.

You have to drive a car.

If you are a woman, you cannot have grey hair ($$$ for another industry).

Your kids have to have certain toys. (Sells a lot of junk).

Your kids have to have certain clothes or objects or society will reject them.

You have to get a job working for someone else (it occurs to only a small minority to even think of trying to start a business).

[dalaigh lllama]

34. Fascinating reading

One of the courses I took in college included a book called "How to Lie With Statistics," and ever since I've looked at what's presented to us in the news as "fact" with a jaundiced eye.

Take B$sh's carefully prepared presentation of words whenever he spoke of 9/11 and Saddam. Not once did they ever say that they had proof that Iraq attacked us on 9/11, and yet the wording in his and others' speeches convinced a majority of Americans that such was the case.

There is enough truth in the examples listed in the article to trigger responses of outrage from people that of course vaccines, pharma, hospitals, etc. are modern miracles; how dare we criticize and call it propaganda? Of course these are wonderful, but it doesn't necessarily follow that there might not also be a downside to these that isn't being discussed. What about the theory that the mercury added to vaccines has caused autism? Has this been thoroughly researched with transparency? What about those pharma ads we see ad nauseam (pun intended) on T.V? My mind boggles, thinking about folks going to their doctors and asking for these drugs, rather than having the doctor prescribe what he/she thinks is best or perhaps prescribing nothing at all.

Here's a recent example of successful p.r. reshaping of public opinion: smoking. Twenty years ago, smoking was pervasive. Now, smokers are almost social pariahs, banned from all public areas. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but consider this: when I visit my daughter in New York and fly into the city, it's very easy to see the brown cloud of pollution blanketing he city, and impossible to escape the car fumes as you traverse the city streets. New Yorkers are now "protected" from "secondhand smoke" in bars and restaurants. Yet, no indignation about the fumes from cars and industry. Why is that? Shaping of public perception?

Anywho, thanks for the interesting post. And as t'gaffer used ter say, "Keep an open mind, but not so open the wind can blow thru."

[madmusic]

35. The course I took was practical logic.

Logic for every day use, including commercials and political ads and speeches. Just about everything. It made me a skeptic to the point of being an ass sometimes. But it was a great course and was probably more useful than any other.

You make a very good point about commercials and the pharma ads. They may even create some of the illnesses the drugs require. That's how powerful the mind can be. Then the patients go to the doctor and say, sell me this! What a racket. Mercury in vaccines is another one that not enough people know about. It has caused damage we are only starting to measure.

Have to LOL about the smoke over NY and secondhand cigarette smoke. If it were somehow possible to suck all that smog out of the sky and pump it into bars and restaurants on a Friday night, someone might stop and think... if they lived through it.

Thanks for the fun post.

[earth mom]

55. The pharma giants are doing everything in their power to NOT measure the mercury

found in the preservative Thimerosal that was used in infant vaccines. Instead they've used the propaganda tactics of ridicule and fear to convince some people that they did no wrong and that giving that much mercury to infants with developing brains is just fine and dandy. They might as well be saying ; "Here have a spoonful!" :grr:

p.s. Thanks for the eye opening & thought provoking thread! :thumbsup:

[madmusic]

62. Thanks for reading and commenting.

I'm seriously obsessed with this propaganda thing and am more and more amazed at how powerful and pervasive it is.

If mercury is bad in the air, it has to be bad in vaccines, I would think:

Study Links Air Pollutants With Autism

Bay Area children with the disorder are 50% likelier to be from areas high in several toxic substances. Scientists say more research is needed.
By Marla Cone, LA Times Staff Writer
June 23, 2006

Children with autism disorders in the San Francisco Bay Area were 50% more likely to be born in neighborhoods with high amounts of several toxic air contaminants, particularly mercury, according to a first-of-its-kind study by the California Department of Health Services.

The new findings, which surprised the researchers, suggest that a mother's exposure to industrial air pollutants while pregnant might increase her child's risk of autism, a neurological condition increasingly diagnosed in the last 10 years.

more: http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2006/10/lat-study-links-air-pollutants-with.html

[Strawman]

41. Yep. Read Leon Samson's Americanism as Surrogate Socialism

Published in 1935 I think

[madmusic]

43. You lost me, Strawman.

And I can't find a summary or book review of this book. What's it about? How does socialism fit in this picture?

[Strawman]

44. He argues that we're the most conformist, easily led culture on Earth

Despite all our bogus claims of "rugged individualism."

[madmusic]

46. That's probably true, but why the "socialism" in the title?

Still trying to Google more.

[Strawman]

48. Why socialism never took root here is a big question in political science

The socialism point is tangential to my use of his observations here about conformity in America, but central to the article obviously.

Essentially, "Americanism" subsumes many of the warrants for socialism, e.g. Americans already think they are equal. Americans understand class as an adjective for some consumer object they might want to buy, e.g. "that is a very classy car."

It's kind of an interesting aticle. I can't find it on the internet either. I recently read it for a class.

[madmusic]

51. Thanks. I keep an eye out and post it or link if found. Sounds interesting.

[soothsayer]

42. It's the fluoride in the water! Makes us passive.

[Minnesota_Lib]

59. Yes, it's part of the worldwide communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids.

:)

[Jcrowley]

45. Must be

the hydrofluosilisicic (sp?) acid that comes from the scrubbers at the Cargill phosphate fertilizer plant in Hillsborough Bay, Fla. I mean the fluoride.

Could it be the same reason that Americans think that fluoride is good for their teeth while the rest of the world has banned it and the state that is the most heavily fluoridated has the 2nd worst rate of dental caries?

http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/spring98/sp98b_fe.htm

Oh well, now must pay homage to the military-medical-pharmaceutical complex that the media promotes.

[Imagevision]

50. Because The Repukes are professionally better liars, Dems aren't performers...

WMD's - mushroom clouds - mushroom clouds from Cheney Rumsfeld, Rice and even George, they obviously need to score going the mushroom cloud bit scenario, - now we'll never hear this tripe from a Dem so at least, we should learn from the play characters out of the west wing currently be used by Alfred Hitchcock

[FernBell]

56. k&r

[jpwhite]

57. information overload

The reason it seems that people will believe almost anything is because there is so much information out there from cable news, regular news, and the internet that people are tending to block out stuff. It takes work to be an informed citizen.

What we have to do is people here (yes, the wonderful people of democratic underground) is to be able to bring these subjects up to our coworkers and talk about politics in a casual way. Don't be so intense about it. Just make your point quickly and back off so that they have time to think about it. We need to as liberals/progressives influence the people around us.

If you are waiting for the media to do it, you're wasting your time. Don't argue, but share ideas. Be ready to listen, then they will listen to you. Trust me, there are very few conservatives out there that can actually defend their point of view.

James
[e-mail]

[patrice]

60. Right On!!!

[madmusic]

61. Overall, I agree, except...

The brainwashing was alive and well and very effective when there were only 3 network channels and no internet or cable. Even before TV with radio. The propaganda machine may have to work harder to remain pervasive because there are so many "tubes" (including TV stations), but it is still fundamentally the same.

On a side note, arguing can be fun and educational. Sometimes I'm glad to "lose" an argument/debate because I learn so much from it. A little passion is always a little part of the equation, I think.

That said, sometimes I'm a little too passionate, but don't usually hold it against anyone else if they are.

[EstimatedProphet]

63. Thank you!

This is, without the conventional wisdom, the truth. I've always held that no one is ever more wrong than when they start a sentence with "Everyone knows..."

[madmusic]

65. Love your sig!

90% of life is just showing up, and Bush hasn't even done that!

:rofl:

[EstimatedProphet]

66. Thank you! That came to me while in a traffic jam, as I remember

Weird thoughts often do...

[madmusic]

72. Don't tell us you're going to start a pro-traffic jam movment...

Some would start a shower movement instead.

Maybe best would be from the traffic jam and into the shower. Best of both.

Funny how that works. Some research suggests ideas come more easily when we are slightly active and the mind is in neutral, so to speak. Maybe it is then that we don't try so heard to control our thoughts and they are free to germinate.