Judge tells couple they can't smoke in thier own home

[proud2BlibKansan]

HOA Rule Forbids Couple To Smoke In Their Own Home
Judge Upholds Homeowners' Association Order

GOLDEN, Colo. -- A judge has upheld a homeowners association's order barring a couple from smoking in the town house they own.

Colleen and Rodger Sauve, both smokers, filed a lawsuit in March after their condominium association amended its bylaws last December to prohibit smoking.

"We argued that the HOA was not being reasonable in restricting smoking in our own unit, nowhere on the premises, not in the parking lot or on our patio," Colleen Sauve said.
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The Heritage Hills #1 Condominium Owners Association was responding to complaints from the Sauves' neighbors who said cigarette smoke was seeping into their units, representing a nuisance to others in the building.

more . . .
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/10336501/detail.html

[Mythsaje]

1. "We're well within our rights to change the rules

any time we fucking like. And fuck you if you have a problem with that."

The judge agrees, saying only "tough shit if you don't like it."

Great. Just great.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. .

:popcorn:

This should be fun...

[JeffR]

5. Is it OK to smoke while we wait?

:shrug:

[Fuzz]

8. :::lights one up:::

[Cooley Hurd]

12. *smoke*munch*smoke*munch*

:smoke::popcorn::smoke::popcorn:

[davidinalameda]

28. I think they were talking about cigarettes

not the kind of smoking that gives you (and me) the munchies

:bounce:

[Cooley Hurd]

33. If it was the "smoking-munchie" kind, I'd buy a unit there!

:rofl::smoke:

[davidinalameda]

44. those are called college dorms

[Cooley Hurd]

55. But you can't live there forever, unless you're...

[davidinalameda]

56. or me

did way too long in the dorms

at one point, I was the go-to guy for underaged kids who wanted beer

[Fuzz]

3. Well, this thread should get a couple responses

;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Meh.

:shrug:

[nam78_two]

6. Groan/nt

[karlrschneider]

7. I'd start grilling dogshit in the bathtub. Presumably there's no rule against that.

...

[EllenZ]

9. They need a better lawyer

Nothing will make you more upset than an out-of-control HOA.

[Vorta]

49. They need to go to ACLJ or Liberty Counsel- win win

Cost Pat Robertson money and beat up your HOA at the same time. I'd do it in a heartbeat

[William769]

10. My first reaction is.

Condominium Owners Association is the first problem. We sold our Condo in Florida because of the Association. And I'm going to stop right there.

[TheCowsCameHome]

11. Were their oxygen bottles in danger of exploding?

That could make a difference

[Jed Dilligan]

13. Ugh

People should boycott HOA developments. You know there are ones that tell you what color drapes you can have, what breed of dog you can have, and how long you can leave your garage door open? I wonder if the fascist attitudes spreading throughout the country derive from people growing up in these nightmares of conformity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Sounds like a socialist commune

[Jed Dilligan]

65. I read an article once that made exactly that point

I'll try to dig it up and PM you

[Green Mountain Dem]

14. Then the HOA should

not allow any cars in any area within the no smoking ban because of the exhaust fumes. Just sayin....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. I'd imagine...

they already require cars to have catalytic converters and mufflers.

[Clark2008]

25. Doesn't stop all the pollution though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. No.

And still, the smoking/cars analogy remains as bad an analogy as the guns/cars analogy.

[TheCowsCameHome]

20. I think they are banned in the living areas, if I'm not mistaken

More silly rules, eh?

[Virginia Dare]

34. Many HOA's go way too far...

restricting personal liberties, and many of them, especially the condo assn.'s are political. I've lived in a community like that, was glad to get out, and would think long and hard before I ever went back to one.

I'm a non smoker, but really, what in the hell would those people have done in a New York tenament 100 years ago?

[LonelyLRLiberal]

16. I'm not defending the condo association's decision, but . . .

I do believe that this story illustrates the importance of reading and understanding all of the legal documents governing any condo you want to buy. The condo documents no doubt allow the board to set the rules, so you have to watch out who you elect to the condo board.

Sounds like lousy construction to me. Cigarette smoke is able to leak from one condo to an adjacent condo? Wow.

[SoCalDem]

17. Yep.. If you want to play your music the volume you want, or have pets

os smoke, you better consider avoiding "connected" housing of any kind..

The do-gooders are out there ready to tell you how to live your life so it does not offend them.

[Gwerlain]

22. HOAs are not restricted...

to connected housing. I am a member of one, and I'm on my way out as quick as I can git.

[SoCalDem]

29. True, BUT you are more likely to have issues like this in connected housing.

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Damn right. My dog smokes, sings way too loud and farts in public

and that's the way I like it. Screw the HOA.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

48. LOL! You owe me a new laptop!

And my dog does the same and I can't keep her off of Ebay.

[TheCowsCameHome]

52. Maybe she'll snag a Play Station 3 - better watch her closely!

[Jed Dilligan]

71. Just had kind of a touching memory

A few years back I used to see this young kid (about 20 years old) in my apartment parking lot at night, smoking and reading motorcycle magazines. He lived across the street in these yuppie apartments that didn't allow smoking, even outside. I used to talk to him sometimes about politics and whatnot. He was a non-freeperish but conservative Christian, married too young, obviously unsatisfied...

Now he's riding his bike around town flying the Lebanese flag, organizing protests and screenings of progressive films. He's budded into a great graphic artist with a signature political-poster style. I'm not the main person responsible for his conversion... But I think it's interesting that the process might have started with restrictions ejecting him from the place where he lived.

[melissinha]

58. not bylaws to begin with, residens for 5 years THEN HOA amends bylaws

to go after them specifically:

Colleen and Rodger Sauve, both smokers, filed a lawsuit in March after their condominium association amended its bylaws last December to prohibit smoking.

some other excerpts:

For five years the couple has smoked in their living room and that had neighbors fuming.

"I don't understand. If I was here and I was doing a lawful act in my home when they got here, why can they say, 'OK, now you have to change,'" said Colleen Suave. "We're not arguing the right to smoke as much as we're arguing the right to privacy in our home."

[stepnw1f]

18. fuck that!

That's just ridiculous..... that judge can go to hell. And I'm an EX-SMOKER.

[Vorta]

19. If smoke is "seeping through the walls" then there is something wrong with the house.

[devilgrrl]

21. Is it me or are houses built really poorly these days?

I swear the BIG bad wolf could blow most new houses down with little or no effort.

[Karenina]

24. What next? CURRY????

:shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

32. Liebling!

:hi: :hug:

[Karenina]

42. Na, DUUUU!!!

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

Gestern, hab' ich das Wort "hinterwelterlich" gelernt. :rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

62. "Behind" something?

:shrug: :D

By the way, I just joined an international honors society and am considering Germany for Fulbright work. If I can finish the work I am doing now, by mid December, I am going to Spain to visit family and I will take a short trip to Portugal to check out research possibilities there. If you happen to go to Spain to escape the cold weather in Köln let me know. ;) :hug:

[Karenina]

67. Behind the rest of the world!

"Provincial" comes close. ;-)

[Richard Steele]

35. Exactly. The neighbors may have a case against the CONTRACTOR...

...who built it, but certainly NOT against the smokers.

I'm pretty sure that smoking tobacco inside would qualify
as a "reasonable expectation of use" for a home that someone
actually OWNS. This case sounds like some seriously messed-up
HOA-run-amok NONSENSE.

[Vorta]

43. The article said "town house" but people misuse terms, especially in marketing.

I would think they meant a row-house, but I have never seen a row-house, even a poorly built one like my condo 'townhouse' in San Mateo, that had central ventilation for the entire building.

Frankly the whole condo thing amazes me. I have been in some incredibly expensive buildings, and the elevator smells like pizza and chinese food, and you can smell bacon in the hallway, just like any apartment building.

[Virginia Dare]

37. Good point...

how much will the HOA spend in legal fees, as opposed to how much it would cost to fix the ventilation/and or insulation? :shrug:

[Crowdance]

27. I lived in a condo like this once. Neighbor's smoke filled our livingroom and

kitchen, we could smell what they were having for dinner each night,and the nightime activity in the master bedroom was, um, audially inspirational. We were just renting. If I'd bought the stinky condo, I'm sure I'd have wanted them to quit smoking.

[SoCalDem]

38. My neighbors barbeque in their FRONT yard, so I cannot even open up my house

on nice cool days...and they stick Grandpa out on the front porch all day long in a ratty ole chair..

It;s a eyesore, I tell ya..

I guess if i had a homeowners' assoc behind me I could make 'em move :)

[TheCowsCameHome]

45. See post #7. It could be worse...........

[pretzel4gore]

53. jeez, maybe they should bury him....

herebouts, if an ole stiff left in the yard too long, they send the fire truck!

[kiahzero]

30. It seems like this is not as dramatic a ruling as some are making it out to be

If, because of the circumstances of the properties, smoking constitutes a nuisance (similar to any other lawful use of the property which would similarly affect the "use and enjoyment" of the neighboring properties), the court would in fact have the power to injoin the smoking or force the smokers to pay monetary damages (such as paying for the changes necessary in order for their smoking to no longer cause a nuisance).

"I don't understand. If I was here and I was doing a lawful act in my home when they got here, why can they say, 'OK, now you have to change,'" said Colleen Suave. "We're not arguing the right to smoke as much as we're arguing the right to privacy in our home."

That would be because there is no "Coming to the nuisance" rule - in short, such a rule would amount to the seizure of property value by the creator of the nuisance.

[Mythsaje]

39. Oh, right...

The purchasers of the property are held liable for the bad design and/or poor construction that makes their personal habits a problem for others? Like smoking in their own goddam home?

That's bullshit.

Of course, I think anyone who'd buy into a place like this needs to have his or her head examined, but that's just me. I'd rather live in a hundred-year old house with plumbing and electrical problems that have my neighbors up my ass.

[kiahzero]

76. It's the law of nuisance, as I understand it.

Don't blame me, I'm just a law student.

[SoCalDem]

40. Near where I live is a community that sprang up decades ago

It was a "countrified" area near Corona.. People moved there so they could have horses, goats, chickens, unpaved roads (better for horsie feet)..and now they are experiencing a boom, and the "newcomers" , who now outnumber the people who founded the community, want to OUTLAW the "rural" aspects of the town.

It's how places change... and a case for "be careful what you ask for".. You want growth to enhance the tax base,??...well.. you might just get folks to move near you, who want YOU to change..

[Ms. Toad]

46. On the other hand,

prohibiting the Suave's from smoking in their own home amounts to a seizure of their property.

I am all in favor of banning smoking in public places, but their home is not public property.

(FWIW, I agree with the general negative comments about HOAs - run from any property tied to a HOA.)

[kiahzero]

77. Yes, however

Courts seem to side for the parties harmed by the nuisance, rather than the person creating the nuisance.

[gratuitous]

31. Try to remember

That living in a condominium or other homeowner's association place is strictly voluntary. The Sauves do not have to live in Heritage Hills. And the folks making the rules for the Condominium are not a bunch of out-of-control yahoos, they are other owners of units in the Condominium. The owners have decided amongst themselves to be responsible to one another for the common areas of the Condominium, which includes the air they breathe.

[Virginia Dare]

36. That's true...

which is exactly why I will think long and hard before I ever move into one of those types of communities again. They can be political too, they pick and choose what they enforce and how they enforce it.

[seabeyond]

84. AFTER they buy the property. that is bullshit. gonna defend them

they need to at LEAST, the very least be up front before they spend the money. but to sell it then tell them is pure bullshit and undefensible

[pretzel4gore]

41. from a democracy to a demonocracy in one generation!

this is what we get for tuning in, turning on and (thinking about) dropping out back in the late 60's early 70's!
'goddam the pusherman' eh? this'll teach us!

[BlackVelvet04]

47. I absolutely HATE what this country has become.....

a bunch of offended, frightened whiny ass pains in the ass.

[Vorta]

50. That's what I hear about Britain

[TheCowsCameHome]

57. Yeah, *gasp* I know *hack* what *cough* *gaak* you *wheeze* mean...

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

64. I absolutely hate the idea of a homeowner's association

I'm too much of an individualist to conform in this way and it's why I have avoided these types of places like the plaque. I'd rather live in a dirt-floored cabin in the mountains. But even then, there would probably be a local county government ordinance requiring me to tear it down because the ceiling is too low or some other similar nonsense.

[MrSlayer]

51. Well I'd start frying liver every night with no oil.

See how much they like that. I'd never abide by this anyway. I do what I want in my own home.

[melissinha]

60. I was going to say cook Indian Curry food

that got my wench roommate so upset... it bugs lots of people.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

72. Or frying strong Corsican goat cheese - you can smell it for miles

There are goat cheeses from Corsica so strong you think they'll melt through the roof of your mouth. On the island of Corsica, when people fry goat cheese on their stove together with a type of pork sausage called figatelli, you can smell it from one end of the village to the other.

[adamblast]

54. Makes me grateful I'm too poor to ever live in a place with...

...a homeowner's or condo association. Bunch of yuppie scum busybodies. :evilgrin:

I swear smoking tobacco is gonna be reviled about as bad as pedophilia if we keep this up; it's certainly subject to as much hysteria. If people can smell it, they think they're having an attack. Everyone magically became allergic in about 1995.

Next up: sorry, my son's deathly allergic to peanuts, so you can't have any in your house either.

[liberalhistorian]

68. Don't laugh, there are already

school systems that forbid ALL students to bring any kind of peanut products in their lunches due to the allergies of some of the students.

[SoCalDem]

78. Oh the HUMANITY.. Killer peanut fumes..film at 11 n/t

[RetroLounge]

59. I'd tell them to fuck off

and light up anyhow...

and I'd have my wife breast feed on the front porch.

And have my kids make all the fucking noise they could.

and buy a dog that barks a lot.

and BBQ right on the property line with real stinky food.

I'd make them so miserable they would move. Fascist fucks.

RL

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. I like your style

Will you be my neighbor? :)

[RetroLounge]

80. anytime...

:hi:

RL

[liberalhistorian]

61. I hate smoking, but this is crazy,

and that damned HOA is even crazier. People need to think very long and very hard about moving into an HOA-controlled area, and they need to read every single word of the HOA bylaws and amendments. EVERY WORD.

I used to work for a real estate attorney; I saw firsthand just how crazy, controlling and micro-managerial many of these HOA's really are. And, unfortunately, once you've signed the documents and are living there, you have agreed to be under the control of the HOA whether you've actually read the bylaws or not and they maintain TIGHT control, believe you me.

Why in the hell anyone would want to pay beacoup bucks for a condo only to be told what they can and cannot do right down to the color of their drapes and the types of plants they can have on their window, etc., and to have neighbors who complain about every little goddamn thing in the book, I really don't know. It would be like living in a college dorm all over again, where you always have to worry about everything you do and say. Fuck that, I had enough of that in college itself.

Living in an HOA-controlled area is absolutely suffocating, for the most part, and I would really, highly recommend against it. Because you just might find yourself in the position that this couple is in, forbidden from doing something perfectly legal in the privacy of your own home that you OWN because you're under the control of anal-retentive micromanagerial idiots and there won't be a damn thing you can legally do about it.

[melissinha]

69. parents' HOA prohibited their elf decoration in the window year round

Thing is that the elves are kept in windows year round back home in Iowa but some uppity jerk in Vegas was offended by stupid elves in the window....

[don954]

81. that's where you put a big pent in the window

and its allowed by federal religious freedom laws & the 1st amendment, and theres not a dam thing they can do about it! :evilgrin:

[EllenZ]

82. changes

The point is, there was nothing about smoking when they moved in. When a rule is changed like that, they are changing the value and marketability of the property. A good lawyer should be able to win a damage suit against the HOA.

Me being me, I would start a campaign of continuously complaining about the neighbors that complained about my smoking. Their car has too loud a color,their yard has weeds, and anything else I could think of. I know a lawyer who hates HOAs who would love to be able to make them for me. I see no sense in being reasonable and polite to people who are trying to tell me what I can/cannot do in the privacy of my home.

[gollygee]

66. There is no way them smoking in their home could be

that much of a nuisance to their neighbors. No way. I've lived in an apartment with smoking neighbors. Smoke doesn't seep through the walls.

[liberalhistorian]

70. Considering how badly many condos are

constructed nowadays, somehow I wouldn't be surprised. But that's the contractor's fault and problem and this couple shouldn't have to pay because of it.

[DemBones DemBones]

73. If you read the entire article, one neighbor said

that at times it is like someone is sitting in her living room smoking. That's bad.

The article also says that the Sauves (the smokers) have tried to seal off their condo somehow and another neighbor has spent thousands of dollars trying to keep the smoke odor out of his/her condo.

[liberalhistorian]

74. I certainly agree that that would be

very bad for the neighbors, but, again, that's bad/faulty construction on the part of the contractor/builder. The builder is the one at fault and it should be held responsible, not the couple.

[DemBones DemBones]

83. That would seem to be the case. The builder should have

to buy the Sauve's condo; then they can buy a home where smoking is permitted.

[TheCowsCameHome]

75. You haven't see some of the dumps they build these days.

Maybe not actually thru the walls, but thru lots of other places into adjoining units.