Even if you excuse the TASER, you can't excuse the torture.

[LoZoccolo]

We can argue all night about what would happen if cops didn't have TASERs and whether or not you think it's better than beating someone with a club.

But what can't be excused here is the entirely separate issue that it was clearly being used as an instrument of torture.

If the student had attacked the cops and they zapped him, they would be defending themselves.

But what was happening here was that they were using it to get him to comply with a request, one that if not carried out, would have harmed no one. On top of that, he was zapped even after he was handcuffed; no case can be made that the TASER was being used in self-defense at that point. And there's the medical proof that someone can be immobilized for up to fifteen minutes after being shocked with one of these guns; I have repeatedly seen video of people not getting up after being shocked, and getting shocked again and again. No sane person would do that willingly with a TASER pointed at them; think of how few people resist with a firearm pointed at them, and try to think of why a TASER would be different.

If you excuse this act of torture, there is nothing stopping them from torturing you for anything else they want you to do, even if you are not harming anyone by not doing it.

Assert yourselves now or risk being asserted on later.

[JeffR]

1. Damn right.

:kick:

[MnFats]

2. umm....perhaps I've been out of it..

...or just pretend I'm stupid...what incident are you talking about?
I'm interested because some police departments around here are planning to add tasers to their arsenal...while others have said no dice.

[dubykc]

6. UCLA Police Officers...

Tasering a student who refused to leave the library.

[we can do it]

30. He Didn't Refuse To Leave, He Forgot His ID - They Were "Randomly Checking"

after 11pm

[mondo joe]

36. He didn't refuse. He WAS leaving.

Please check your facts.

[crikkett]

38. He was leaving TOO SLOWLY.

Probably had to save the paper he was working on.

[mom cat]

43. Exactamundo! He was on his way out when the machokins began

their cruel and unusual punishment!
All that pain and suffering over a lousy library card, or was it the color of his skin?

[pnwmom]

19. The police used a taser on a woman in my suburban area,

after she rear-ended someone's car. The woman, a former Microsoft employee, was slumped over the wheel and police assumed she was drunk. So they ordered her to get out of the car and when she didn't comply, they broke her car window and tasered her through the opening. When she still just lay there, slumped over the steering wheel, they dragged her out of the car.

When the Fire Dept arrived, they immediately recognized that the woman wasn't drunk -- she was in diabetic shock. Sure enough, a blood test revealed no alcohol in her system. To make matters worse, the taser landed close to her kidney transplant.

I believe the woman's name was something like Linda Fuch's, if you want more info. And she's suing the town of Redmond, Washington.

[athena]

24. That's horrible beyond words. I hope many people hear about this.

Cops shouldn't be using tasers just because someone refuses to get out of his/her car. Would they fire a gun? If not, they shouldn't use a taser.

[pnwmom]

25. Maybe I'll start a thread about it tomorrow, Athena.

When more people are awake.

:hi:

[athena]

26. That cop was suspended for one week without pay. That's all he got.

(I did a google search using the information you provided.:hi:)

One week without pay for tasering a person who is nearly in a coma:
http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4186156.html (look at the last paragraph)

Leila Fuchs is suing the officers, the police chief, and the city of Redmond for $1M.

Even the freepers are disturbed by this one.

[Bonobo]

28. Here it is.

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_050806WABtaserfoloKC.21cc2c17.html

[Pithlet]

40. It's awful. Here's a link to the story you're talking about:

http://nodonut.egoweblog.com/blog/bad_cop_no_donut/taser/2006/05/07/redmond_taser_lawsuit

[dubykc]

3. Exactly!

[uppityperson]

4. Had a policeman stop by me recently, call "can I talk with you"

I was polite and went over. Turns out I pulled out too close to someone and said cop followed me for 6-8 blocks hoping to get me for a moving violation but I stopped so he couldn't. He scolded me for pulling out too close to someone, then got mad when I didn't remember or know the street names. I "yes sir" "no sir" "sorry sir I will try to be more careful sir" and wanted to just turn and walk away except some of our (small town) cops have tased and threatened to tase in situations that didn't need it and I was scared. Pissed me off. I've been reluctant to approach police headquarters and complain as I didn't get name of the policeman, would probably recognize him but then he would recognize me and be on the look out. I hate this. Middle aged female, scared to walk away from a cop in a small town because of tasering.

[file83]

12. You did what you needed to do...

...it wasn't wrong nor right...just functional. This kid at UCLA wasn't having it...wasn't wrong nor right...just functional. Cops got dysfunctional.

And that's what they want you (and all of us) to do - be afraid. Taser International is making SO MUCH MONEY selling these Brave New World products everywhere from private security, to Correctional Facilities, to Police forces.... If the cops don't find a reason to use them, then it's bad business for TASER. Get it?

So, in a way, you backing down is a good thing - you are denying Taser profits. :thumbsup:

[pnwmom]

20. I would have done the same thing, uppityperson

but in the clear light of day, I might have decided that the best thing to say would have been "Am I under arrest or is it all right if I leave now, sir?"

[uppityperson]

44. Yeah, it was a bit of a shock to me, better prepared for next time.

OK, I'll admit it, I have gone through my 50+ yrs getting by and not being harassed because I am a peachy skin colored female. Next time I'm better prepared to just stand up for myself, politely of course, and see what happens.

[4morewars]

5. I excuse neither sir !

fuck the police and that goes double for campus rent-a-cops.

[file83]

7. The people that think the tasering was "okay" have no business here on the DU...

...because you have obviously missed the entire point of the last 5 years. This isn't a "grey" area. Tasers are for defense against VIOLENT suspects. END OF STORY. This guy was not violent, he was only DISOBEDIENT.

Would it be okay for you to be tasered at a war protest?
Would it be okay for Cindy Sheehan to get tasered while waiting for her answer from Bush?
Would it be okay for Ghandi to have been tasered?
Would it be okay for MLK to have been tasered?


If you even have to think for a second about any of those answers, then you are obviously at the wrong forum. You meant to click your way to FreeRepublic.com

[midnight]

10. I'm so thankful you bring this up. I agree with you on this.

Stop this taser business. I guess we should follow the money on this one. Who profits?

[file83]

13. TASER profits. Based in Arizona. I used to know a Taser salesman....

...he was a hard-core right winger. Pro Bush 100%. Thought people getting tased was FUNNY. I knew him threw a mutual acquaintance.

The hypocritical thing? He smoked dope like it was going out of style. :silly:

Point is, this fascist bullshit is ALL tied together buy one common thread: IGNORANCE

And money. Taser needs to continue getting the shit sued out of them. So do the Police that abuse the use of that weapon.

[pnwmom]

21. Not only do they profit, they want to expand into the CONSUMER market.

I posted a thread about that earlier today.

[file83]

53. Yup, they call it 'Citizen Taser'. The catch is that these Citizen Tasers

have little microbeads with serial numbers - so that when you fire it, the cops will be able to detect who fired it and who the Citizen Taser is registered to (you have to give Taser International all your particulars just to buy it).

It's the stupidest self defense weapon I can think of. If you miss on the first shot, you only have a "stun gun" left. That means hand to hand combat, assuming your opponent doesn't have a fire arm.

Have a link to that thread of yours?

[951-Riverside]

11. Here in California the police routinely use tasers on people who run from them

IMO a taser should not be used as an everyday tool for police officers, like their side arms it should only be used in EXTREME cases. No one should be tased for simply "sassing" or "back talking" a cop.

[file83]

14. They do that shit because the Police Chiefs are probably getting kickbacks from Taser.

Those Taser guns go for about $500 a pop. Of course the price varies, but you get the idea. The salesmen are "training" the cops by voluteering themselves to get tased as to "desensitize" the cops from feeling bad about using them.

This is BIG business. It's a domestic fascist industrial complex.

[readmoreoften]

15. I agree 500%

I'm not willing to share a big tent with fascists. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. If we can't draw it at "no torturing students who forget their library cards with weapons" then we've jumped the shark.

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. !!

:thumbsup:

[shanti]

45. yeah!

:thumbsup: (waiting for liberalnurse to jump in and defend these moran cops)

[lies and propaganda]

8. they just kept doin it over and over

when clearly THAT was th reason why he wasnt standing up.

[file83]

9. It's Abu-Ghraib at UCLA....they are disableling the guy with electro-shock weapons

and simultaneously demanding he stand up. The weapon insures that he won't stand up, but they are psychologically FUCKING with him and US by claiming some unrealistic expectation that he should stand up.

That's like blindfolding you and they demand you tell them how many fingers they are holding up. You say "I can't see!!!!" and they beat you for not answering correctly.

There should have been a fucking riot. Sometimes I wonder if the folks in Iraq know what they are fighting against...sometimes...

[Horse with no Name]

39. You know what it reminds me of?

Abusive parents who beat their children mercilessly and then demand they quit crying or they will "get some more".
Muscles rely on electrical impulses to work. The TASER interrupts the electrical impulses. You cannot expect to short-circuit someone then demand they do what they are unable.
TASERS need to be eliminated. The good they do is far surpassed by the bad.

[pnwmom]

22. That's exactly what I thought.

And clearly the other students thought so, too. None of them were begging the student to stand up, which at least some would have done if they thought he was capable.

[entanglement]

16. Kicked and recommended

It was TORTURE, plain and simple.

[Mythsaje]

17. I'm really getting tired of this "law and order" shit...

And I'm not talking about the TV show.

We should be CIVIL enough to acquiesce to any reasonable request from a police officer, but we should NOT be expected to simply obey anything they tell us to do. It's fucking nonsense that there are so many people who think we should.

And the fact that they'd taser a handcuffed person for NOT obeying them?

WTF is wrong with these people?

Cops are getting WAY too big for their britches. I've been saying it for years. And, yes, I blame a lot of it on the Drug War. It's put police in the position of being at war with the American people, and promotes the mindset that everyone's a possible criminal rather than another citizen that deserves respect.

Fuck that shit.

[pnwmom]

18. And just think -- if they're doing this to UCLA kids w/out ID's,

in the middle of crowds with cameras, what are they doing in little dark rooms to terrorist suspects? Who have no witnesses or attorneys or courts to turn to?

[athena]

23. The taser was used to torture AND humiliate the student.

I watched several more taser videos on youtube, and it seems that cops are routinely using tasers to humiliate people. That's an abuse of power, since the job of the police is to protect, not to humiliate.

[athena]

27. It's shows like 24, Alias and CSI that desensitize people to the idea of torture.

Too many episodes, and people start saying things like, "He should have complied with orders; he deserved what he got." The plots of TV dramas are carefully constructed, and they give people the impression that nothing bad will happen to them as long as they're not terrorists/murderers/spies, etc.

I've been concerned for a long time about the popularity of shows like CSI. I've seen a few episodes of Alias, which was rather addictive, but I had to turn the TV off during torture scenes. Such shows are now multiplying like rabbits.

[screembloodymurder]

29. There is no excuse.

With a bad ticker, one shock could kill me.

[we can do it]

31. This Is An Illustration of Why We Need TO REPEAL the Patriot Act NOW

First order of business, get our rights back first, worry about Impeachment later.

[indepat]

32. Sadly torture is a national policy, priority and past-time since the Congress figuratively jumped

through their collective assholes to bless it. :mad:

[kdpeters]

33. There's no defending these cops. They'd have been killed in a dangerous incident

Cops are trained to keep cool under stress. These boobs nearly incited a prestigious university library to riot. They could not have handled the situation any worse if they'd been trying to. Luckily no one was armed and no one was harmed. Next time they may not be so lucky. They should be fired before someone gets killed.

[mondo joe]

34. And NO excuse for telling other students to go back or they'd be tased too!

That's one of the most outrageous parts of the whole thing.

[goddess40]

35. the atmosphere of bullying that is all american

and under the rethuglicans it has been really ramped up to a frenzy pace.

(When you spell check rethuglican comes up republican - even the computers know the truth)

[ArmchairMeme]

41. Video

In watching the YouTube video someone was heard saying "I have a medical condition."

I also wondered why the officers repeatedly yelled at the victim to stand up even though they knew that by tasering him they had rendered him unable to respond in the manner they were asking for. Were they afraid that they had gone too far? Tasering a person with a medical condition has the possibility of more than they could be certain of.

Isn't it the method of officers to demand that someone drop to the ground in order to put them in a place of non-resistence in order for them to be more easily cuffed and carried away. Why were they demanding that he do the opposite?

[LoZoccolo]

42. Because they're sadistic cowards. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

46. Kick. n/t

[0rganism]

47. watch "Fire in the Eyes" sometime

It's a video of, among other things, the lockdown protests in Humboldt county, where non-violent environmentalists protesting Hurwitz's raping of old growth forest to pay for his junk bond trading fines were subjected to direct eyeball-swabbing with pepper spray fluid.

They couldn't move. They couldn't do anything. They didn't have a terrorist agenda. It was just torture, pure and simple.

[BlueStorm]

55. Eyeball swabbing... what the hell is that?

Where can you get this video? It just sickens me that people would do that to others.

Blue

[0rganism]

57. cops took q-tips dipped in pepper spray, and rubbed them in protestors' eyes

In three separate incidents that fall, activists as young as 16 were assaulted as they were chained and helpless. Here is what happened in the words of activist Spring Lundberg: "Humboldt County Sheriff deputies grabbed me by the head and dragged a Q-tip drenched in pepper spray across my eyes. I was completely nonviolent that day, rooted to the floor of Pacific Lumber's lobby like one of the ancient redwoods we defend. PL employees, mingling with law enforcement, told us that we 'had an education coming.' In the lobby of company headquarters in a company town in northern California, they covered the windows with butcher paper so no one could see what they did to us. But the world saw into that room when police videotape of the incident and two others aired on television internationally."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/090704A.shtml

You can get the "Fire in the Eyes" documentary film from Headwaters Action Video Collective.
http://www.kmud.org/support/video/fireintheeyes/index.html

[BlueStorm]

58. Ok that is just plain sick.....

What the hell was their reason for putting pepper spray in the eyes of non-violent protestors. Are protestors that much despised or something?

Blue

[0rganism]

59. intimidation, plain and simple, intimidation and cruelty

on behalf of Charles Hurwitz, junk bond king and corporate master of Pacific Lumber.

[BlueStorm]

60. Wow... I will have to get the video if I can

I can't imagine the pain that these protestors went through. I knew that most corps hate protestors but damn, do they have to torture them too?

Blue

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. One poster said you can't get up, when you've been tasered.

All your coordination's gone. If that's the case, the cop must have known it, and his repeated calls for the lad to stand up would have been plain sadism.

[Pachamama]

50. Even if those Cops didn't know that the taser disables the person from responding to their request

for him to get up (because they weren't properly trained on its use and what it actually does) that still didn't justify them repeatedly tasering him - the victim was handcuffed and was of no threat to them. He wasn't running away and he was incapable of hurting them. Just like the nightstick and mace isn't to be used on a handcuffed person who is of no danger to the cop, then the same rules should apply to the use of the taser.

I am so disgusted having watched that video....I have thought about what I would have done had I been there....I think I would have gone running up and thrown myself on the handcuffed man and tried to shield him. My hope being ofcourse that others would have followed and the cops would have stopped or that the cops would have been reluctant to taser me too. Then again, seeing how sadistic and aggressive they were to this man, I think they would have tasered and done god knows what to people there.

[Joe Chi Minh]

54. He was already handcuffed, too??!! Why do I get the feeling they'd

have tasered him if he'd been shackled, as well?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

51. I thought the video was kind of confusing, it's hard to tell

from that what led to the first tasering. So I don't know if I have enough information there... but the stuff that happened afterwards was just completely over the top. I think those officers are going to be in some trouble here shortly.

[Jokinomx]

52. Very well put....

This was clearly abuse of power.... but it isn't the first time a taser was used in such a manner.

I saw a video on one of the daily talk shows that showed a police officer tasering a GRANDMOTHER who was asked to stand up from sitting in a chair. It was in the police station lobby and she refused to stand at the demand of the officer. He pulled out the taser and shot her. She immediately fell to the ground in pain.

The police dept determined he didn't use excessive force.

peace...

[hedgehog]

56. One of the threads last night says there was a library video cam

visible in the footage on YouTube. I wonder if that's true and if so, whether that video will ever turn up?

The Free Speech demonstrations at Berkley forty some years ago seemed pretty trivial at the time, but I think they may have been an early indication that people were mad as hell and weren't going to take it any more. With luck, history will repeat itself!