Heteros don't know what marriage means

[Tyo]

Marriage is a body of law that has accrued over the years and addresses the practical questions of how two people who choose to spend their lives together handle their shared property, their children, if any, their money, and most importantly health care issues.

There is also a whole bunch of other stuff that doesn't even occur to you until you are suddenly forced to deal with it and you realize how much easier it would be if you were married. It is the State, not the Church, that is a not so silent partner in marriage because it's the State that has to define, enforce and adjudicate the whole thing. As for religious sanctification, it is simply optional window dressing.

Speaking for my partner and I, our lives would be so much more materially secure and more predictable in so many ways if we were allowed to marry. But more important than all of that is that we would have the right to take care of each other if/when sickness or age or accident put us into the hospital. Or the mortuary. Heteros have no idea what marriage really means.

[Ksec]

1. So yea, were all big dumb people

duh.

[Tyo]

4. You just don't know what you've got, man.

Or more specifically, what you can have or not have as you choose.

[Ksec]

5. Would you be OK with civil unions?

Does it have to be called marriage?

I dont see why the label is so important. IMO we should legalise civil unions and move on to more important things.
I just think this debate is really unimportant in the grand scheme of serious problems we need to deal with.

[Tyo]

15. The term "marriage" means nothing to me.

As long as we can have the exact legal equivalent I don't care what you call it. It's not a religious issue for us. We are both atheists. What religious people do is whatever religious people do. We are talking strictly civil law here.

And yeah, right. Human rights are kind of a drag huh? You got our vote and now we need to shut the fuck up and just be there when you need us in 2008. Sorry pal. We can find other things to do on election day.

[readmoreoften]

22. As if GLBT people are being argumentative over a damn word.

If everyone in America was given the legal ability to "fishbean" and "fishbean" meant all the things that legal marital rights do, then GLBT people would be "fishbeaning". The word means nothing to us. The word means everything to the State and the letter of the law.

[readmoreoften]

20. The label is only important to those who seek to deny GLBT people rights.

Gays don't give a damn about the label, but they know that Civil Unions will not tackle many of the economic and legal issues. He's the breakdown:

http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/WhyCivilUnionsAreNotEnough.pdf#search='why%20civil%20unions%20are%20not%20the%20same%20as%20marriage'

[Lindacooks]

2. Yep, you're right.

It's a lot like people who have never lived under a dictatorship. They don't know what it means to have freedom.

[Hissyspit]

3. I do. That's why...

I'm not married.

:P

[crim son]

6. I know what marriage is.

It's when two people cling together like a pair of drowning rats, through thick and thin, disgust and distaste, anger and hatred, acrimony and reproach, abuse and indifference, forever and ever amen, and feel good about it. Just because. :wtf:

[Tyo]

9. Well apparently you have had some issues...

Glad you're not bitter though. Nevertheless, based on your post I would say that being single is probably the best option for you.

[crim son]

11. I agree with you.

Although I wasn't referring to my issues :)

[EllenZ]

7. Marriage

A brief visit with a lawyer will settle any of the problems you mentioned. Wills, powers of attorney and other legal instruments are there for your use. Being in a legal marriage just means that the state has decided how everything gets split up or handled. In a non-conventional relationship, you just have to take the time to do it all yourself ahead of time.

[Tyo]

12. Ah, No

We've been to the lawyer's office. Multiple times. And we will keep on going to the lawyer's to keep everything updated. And it's because we are having to re-create the wheel. If you are married, just get divorced. Simple enough, right? And then go to a lawyer and ask that lawyer to reconstruct all the protections, obligations, and legal bullshit that is marriage. And then pull out your checkbook and see how you like it.

[EllenZ]

17. Ah,yes

My domestic partner and I have filed powers of attorney for each other that enable either one of us to make whatever decisions are necessary (medical/whatever) if the other is unable to. We are also each others executors and principle beneficiary's of our wills.

With ones wishes signed/sealed/notarized and on file, if a situation does occur, we are ready for it.

[Rosemary2205]

46. Good luck on that.

All too often those powers of attorney and legal document are either challenged in court or else are completely ignored by medical providers should something happen. -- What happens when your partner drops at the gym and you don't have the paper on you right at the moment?? You gonna be happy about losing the last hour of life, miss being there when they pass on, just to run home and grab that legal document?

IMHO all the legal documents are a stupid system to deal with a very simple problem. A marriage equivalent for gays is just so easy.

[readmoreoften]

21. Absolutely not true. Completely ignorant of the realities.

http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/WhyCivilUnionsAreNotEnough.pdf#search='why%20civil%20unions%20are%20not%20the%20same%20as%20marriage'

[snot]

8. Every marriage is different, but

I'll certainly grant that anyone who thinks it depends on what bits of flesh folks have between their legs do NOT understand what it SHOULD mean.

[renate]

30. EXACTLY!

Sorry to shout.

Humans are more than the "bits of flesh folks have between their legs." And I say this from the legal etc safety of a heterosexual marriage.

If you commit yourself and your life to someone, you are married. DAMMIT. What more could anyone ask or expect?

The marriage vows are all about "in sickness and through health," etc.
When people who don't have that legal obligation commit themselves to each other through hard times... that is MORE than marriage.

[American Jesus]

10. Well, it's defintely true that SOME heteros don't know what it means.

This breeder comes to mind almost immediately....

[hlthe2b]

13. I support gay marriage...

I am not gay, but I do support gay marriage.

But what you wrote could apply just as much to many types of people, regardless of their sexual preference... I'll leave it there, because the gross generalization is really "off-putting"--even for those who generally support your views.

[TimeChaser]

14. Marriage for everyone or civil unions for everyone

Personally, I think the term "marrage" shouldn't be applied to the legal contract and such, and that it should only be used in a religious context. But that's just me.

[porphyrian]

16. You should amend that to include heteros who've lost their marriages.

If you didn't know what you had before, you realize it when it's gone.

[Kerrytravelers]

18. Well we do, but we don't know what it's like to have it "legally" denied.

[DiverDave]

19. huh, first time I've been dissed for being straight

had to happen sometime, I guess...

[alittlelark]

23. I fully understand what it is

Hubby and I were together for 15 years before we got married. Well, it was a civil service - but it was still way fun and cool w/60% of a hundred or so guests having to get taxis home.



We got married because we wanted children, and the economic benefits were too sweet to be dismissed

[REP]

24. Bull-Fucking-Shit. That's Why I Refuse To Marry

I'm not property to be sold to the highest bidder. I am anti-marriage for ALL. If we're going to have this archaic system, though, might as well have it for all.

[readmoreoften]

25. Sold to the highest bidder? So THAT's why I can't get married.

I thought it was the damn laws. My girlfriend is homeless and lives with me. She doesn't have a pot to piss in, let alone pay a dowry. And I don't have any money cuz I'm too broke from supporting her.

If I was straight I probably wouldn't get married either. But then again, how do I know? I'm not straight.

[Syrinx]

26. is "heteros" considered an epithet?

Just asking.

[American Jesus]

29. Technically, it's just a Latin derived prefix

But then, so is "homos". The words themselves in their literal meaning are harmless, but they may be taken as "offensive" due to the fact that some morons insist on classifying people by categories such as gender, level of skin pigmentation, or in this case, sexual orientation.

[Syrinx]

31. thanks. that's what I thought.

;)

[Tyo]

37. "Breeders" is an epithet

I don't use it, but some of us do (okay I did use it once and got righteously and deservedly slapped down for it). If you are referred to as a "breeder" you have every right to be offended and gays who use it should be ashamed.

As far as I know, "heteros" is not an epithet but if it is or if it causes offence I apologize. I used it because I get tired of using "straights" all the time.

[American Jesus]

40. I never took offense to the term "breeder" myself.

First time one of my gay friends referred to me as such, my reaction was more or less "Huh" and then when it was explained, I thought it was more funny than offensive, especially in my case since I haven't done any literal "breeding" that I know of. But you gotta admit, in the case of someone like Britney Spears, it seems appropriate, since two babies seems to be the only reason for her second marriage which was otherwise as pointless as her first.

She might as well have gone to the sperm bank and probably would have been able to find better genetic stock than K-Fool.

[Tyo]

44. Man, you've got that right

About Britney Spears I mean. As far as "breeder" goes, I guess it boils down to who's using it in reference to whom. Me? I'm staying away from it. Learned my lesson. B-)

[Syrinx]

48. no offense taken

I was just thinking that if "homo" is bad, then "hetero" would be too. And the Breeders were an okay band. (I don't know if they still exist.)

[petronius]

27. Do you really think this post serves any useful purpose at all?

:shrug:

(No, seriously, I'm really asking. I can't figure it out for myself 'cause I'm just a big dumb hetero who can't grasp any concept more complex than changing the channel on my TV... :sarcasm:)

[Tyo]

38. Well I probably could have worded it better

My point was not that straight folks are dense, at least not any denser than the rest of us. But in my view (and we know you guys pretty well. Hell, my own parents are straight) you kind of take marriage for granted and don't really think about what your family life would be like without it. Because of this a lot of straight folks don't seem to understand why having the marriage option is such a big deal to people like me and my partner.

[petronius]

41. Indeed, the wording could have been improved a little :-)

In fact, my only disagreement with your post was some of the phrasing at the beginning and end...

I completely agree with you that marriage is about far more than tax breaks, children, and 'the bedroom.' For example, as a married straight person, I know that if my wife was in a car wreck right now, this little ring on my finger would be an all-access pass to the hospital and medical decision making. No amount of ad hoc contracts and lawyer visits will provide that level of security...

I think that the issues you point out should be at the very center of arguments in favor of equal marriage rights, and I think you're correct that a lot of people have not been exposed to this part of the question. There is a need for education - even of pro-equality heterosexuals - but despite all the anger and frustration that has built up over the years that education can be done in a less contentious way...

(One of the pitfalls of the internet, I think, is the way it reaches such a large audience from the privacy of our own desks. Ten years ago, when we needed to vent some anger, frustration, irritation, etc. through words that were not as politic as our real feelings, we would do it in private with a bottle and some close friends, and we could count on our friends to see through the parts of the spiel that were less than PC. Now, that huge audience sees our words in emotionless text, and it's harder to let off steam without some stranger focusing in on the less-desirable phrasing.)

:toast:

[Tyo]

42. Your points are well made

Thanks. I WAS a little worked up when I wrote that. Thinking before I speak is something I've always had a problem doing.
:toast: Cheers back atcha.

[demobabe]

28. Well, maybe there are benefits, but there are also pitfalls

In fact, after seeing what Family Court actually does for families, I seriously wondered that gays/lesbians would WANT to invite the state into their lives. I can understand the want for a ceremony, a way to express love - that's easy to comprehend. But unless you've done a bunch of legal work ahead of time, if there are any children involved in the marriage and the divorce turns nasty, look out!

Legally you can structure most of what a marriage provides (and I'm sure there are some things marriage may provide legally that might not be able to be set up by contract). The best thing about doing it this way is that you can revoke these contracts (wills, trusts, etc) and change them at any time. You are in control of your life, instead of some judge who deals out rulings based on legal requirements instead of the interests of the parties.

How many times have I seen fathers be kicked out of their own house, then as homeless dads be forced to deal with the emotional strain of divorce, set up a new place to live, and live off the same income they had before but now pay half of it over to the ex-wife, leaving them to live in poverty or on the street? Of course I know dads must support their children, but the court system in America is a cottage industry and isn't really designed with the best interests of anybody involved (other than lawyers).

I've seen second wives essentially be ordered to pay child support for children that aren't even theirs - one example was one couple living in poverty paying more child support than their combined yearly income, while the ex-wife is remarried and makes in excess of $100K herself and her husband was making $40K.

Divorce/Family court has it's own special charm, and in a lot of ways you guys don't know how lucky you are to have not been subjected to this horror! I say this gingerly, but maybe our gay/lesbian friends don't have an idea of what marriage really means - and I'm not saying this to be mean or argumentative, I'm saying it out of my own first hand experiences witnessing this hell!

But of course, if that's what you guys really want, I'm all for it (and I've been a big advocate of gay rights in general) - just don't say I didn't warn you. ;)

[Tyo]

39. Believe me we know about the negatives

We've been hanging out in the same world as you straight folks for quite a while :p

Marriage is obviously not right for everyone as a few posters have pointed out here. But gays, like straights, deserve to have the option and I'll guarantee you that when gays are allowed to marry the reading at the supermarket checkout line will get a whole lot more interesting.

[demobabe]

43. ROFL

I'll guarantee you that when gays are allowed to marry the reading at the supermarket checkout line will get a whole lot more interesting.

Indeed! ;)

I am sure we will get there in time with perseverence.

[Skittles]

32. this hetero doesn't want to know what it means

I have never cared for the idea of being married

[Vidar]

34. More power to you. I should have avoided that heartache.

[pnwmom]

33. Sure they do.

But a married couple still has to worry about legal issues. Yes, a spouse could die without a will and there are inheritance laws that deal with that. But the state's plan for your estate, if you're married and die without a will, is probably not the same plan that you'd choose. You're much better off having a lawyer draft a simple will. And if you have children, you need a will to provide for guardians, whether you are married or not.

And there can also be financial advantages to NOT being married. For example, in a bankruptcy situation. One person's debts don't become the other's. Also, social security payments may be higher to two single people than to a married couple.

[neebob]

35. Or maybe we just don't fully appreciate it

because we're too busy realizing we're stuck with each other and trying to decide whether or not we want out. And those of who went to the trouble to get out are too busy trying to either re-entangle ourselves or get comfortable being single.

Don't get me wrong - I think everyone should have the same right to get sucked into the machine and discover the old saying about the grass is true.

[buddhamama]

36. i think i know what it means

and it why i fight for equality. I am hardliner on this issue, i'll admit, but "Civil Unions" don't cut it for me. When a hetero couple gets married in a non-religious ceremony, it is referred to by the State as a Civil Union? no, it is called marriage/married.

if States were to use Civil Union to refer to All non-religious ceremonies/marriages than I wouldn't have an issue.
In this case the language IS the InEquality.

the other big issue is Common Law Marriage; most States have Laws that recognize CLM. the GLBT community is also excluded from this.

[gollygee]

45. I know what it means

and my life would be a lot harder without it. We would be living on different continents, for starters. If we somehow managed to get some kind of immigration thing going without marriage, I'd have no health care, and no protection if anything happened to our relationship.

It's very sad that any two people in love can't have the rights associated with marriage.

[Skidmore]

47. Well, if you've ever been female and married, it hasn't always been

so ducky--and for lots of women it still isn't. There has traditionally been a power dynamic in marriage that until recently was pretty much the norm. It meant being financially dependent on someone else and being left to hold things together when hubby decides to jettison his cumbersome load for greener pastures. And many men who leave want to leave the responsibility for children behind--all responsibility. Given the divorce rate and number of women electing to become single parents over marrying, there is a statement in there about the legal status of marriage that should be heeded. When no faault divorce came along, it resolved some of these issues, but not all. The material security and predictability you refer to only exists when there is a stable relationship.

[The Straight Story]

49. Sure we do - THAT is why we are fighting this issue with you

And now we are one step closer to getting you the right to marriage. We see the problem, and we aim to fix it. Many of us straight folk want you to have the same rights because we love you and care.

[BlooInBloo]

50. Interesting thought. How much more of the English language are breeders...

... unfamiliar with? Just outta curiosity. I'd like to know just because it would behoove me to stop using words and concepts for which I don't know the meaning.

Thanks!

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

51. Yes, I know all that and more

and I won't go into exactly why my understanding of it is so acute because it's very personal, but if you think it's a cakewalk for all heteros, you haven't considered all the possibilities yourself.

That's why I am in favor of legalizing marriage between consenting adults, period. No other qualifiers.