I have to give Haggard some credit...

[CoffeeCat]

The man didn't continue his lies. He admitted that he is a "liar and a deceiver", and
he recognized that the male prostitute was telling the truth.

I'm certainly not condoning what the man did. He cheated on his wife and he lived his life
as a hypocrite.

However, usually these types usually lie their faces off and behave destructively when their
hypocrisy and lies are revealed. Furthermore, they usually leave their victims twisting in the
wind and will sacrifice them at every turn---proclaiming that the truth tellers are really the liars.

It's rare to see a public figure take full responsibility for his behavior and to acknowledge their
actions--and the lies.

It depends on his future actions and words--but I have a great deal of respect for this man
because he told the truth about himself and stepped away from the lies.

[Catherine Vincent]

1. I don't think there was no way he could prolong this.

How are ya? :hi:

[CoffeeCat]

3. Hey cat!

I agree...at this point, it was difficult for Haggard to continue to deny.

When he said that he put in an order for some meth, but then threw it away--I started cracking
up. Oh sure...sounds likely! :eyes:

I'm doing great. Very optimistic about Tues. How 'bout yourself? :)

[drb]

2. Absolutely correct.

All of us Christians are a bunch of bums anyway. If we weren't, we wouldn't be so darn happy to be forgiven!

[Bluerthanblue]

4. I agree- it's a ...'refreshing' change from

those like Guliani, Livingston, Hyde, Gingrich et al who could easily condemn Bill, but excuse their own f- ups as 'youthfull indscretions' and any manner of other fancy words to avoid facing the music-

I admired Bill, when he faced the world, and admitted his affair, and the suffering he'd brought his family-

While I like you don't 'condone' what Haggard did- I'm surprised, and grateful that he at least didn't try to weasel out of his situation.

[Skittles]

5. I'm impressed he confessed so quickly

I'm disappointed, however, that he thinks it's his sexual orientation that is the problem, and not the world of hatred and intolerance he not only was forced to live in, but actively participated in and profited from

[AntiFascist]

7. It would be interesting to follow his story in the long run...

will he ever come around to the fact that some people can't choose their sexual orientation and will he ever come to terms with it?

[Skittles]

9. my guess is he has a very deep self-hatred within himself

honestly, I believe it would take some extreme therapy to help him deal with it......it's sad that this trauma was the way to make him finally be honest

[madmusic]

6. Riddle me this...

What if instead of being outed he outed himself. Same timing, just before the election, but that would be the only difference. Do you think the reaction would be the same? Wouldn't DUers be just as venomous? Would his career and family still be over and ruined?

In short, though he only committed consensual crimes, it wouldn't make much difference if he were even more honest and outed himself.

Or maybe as Bill Clinton put it the other day: "It is better to be wrong and strong, than right and weak."

Just asking, because I suspect honesty would not have saved him one bit.

On the other hand, you make a good point. That is rare and for probably the above reasons. People are hen peckers. First a feather, then cannibalize.

[Disturbed]

10. "though he only committed consensual crimes"

Buying Meth isn't a "consenual crime". It is a Felony in most states.

I do not admire him at all. He got caught and he was forced to face his actions. I feel sympathy for his wife and children but not him.

Will he now become a heterosexual? Will he stop being either a Bi-Sexual or Homo-Sexual? :sarcasm:

If he is either, I don't care. What is relevant is the anti-Gay msg. that the has preached and his influence with the Bush Regime and over millions of children regarding the agenda that he preached for years.

[jus_the_facts]

13. His wife blames HERSELF for "..letting myself GO?!"

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326185&secid=1

"This whole ordeal must ultimately be placed on my shoulders. Yes, it is my fault for letting myself go so that Ted was so easily tempted into such an ungodly lifestyle. All I can do now is ask for God's and your forgiveness and order, "Thinner Thighs in 30 Days," from Amazon.com and hope that I will never cause something like this to happen again."

....I pitty the children borne from these two idiots...but can't muster any for their parents.
:nopity:

[pnwmom]

And where did you find that quote? Not in the link

that you posted, which is her letter.

[TroglodyteScholar]

35. Umm, the letter says no such thing...

Where did you get that "quote," jus_the_facts?

[madmusic]

17. Sigh, felony or not, still consensual.

He didn't force anyone to sell it to him and on top of that, no one seems to care that his snitch was the DEALER. He is in fact a hero. There's more hypocrisy. Meth is the new moral panic and mandatory laws as bad as for crack are in the works. But the guy who outed him is a hero. Man, laws and morality are all twisted here in the States.

And the rest of your post I agree with. Except for one thing: he only practiced free speech, and not only free speech, he practiced his religion. That is the real crime here for DUers, and the Constitution protects him for that. I won't say "if you don't like it change the Constitution" because too many mobs are all too happy to try - the gay marriage amendment, for example. I don't feel sympathy for him either but am only trying to "look closer."

So what do we really have here that is so outrageous?

1. Free speech: not only legal, but fundamental to the Constitution.
2. Practice of religion: not only legal, but fundamental to the Constitution.
3. Gay sex: not a crime.
4. Adultery: not a crime.
5. A recording saying he wants to buy something, maybe meth. Not a crime, or least not one he can be convicted of.

So, he is not a convicted criminal and his major crimes here at DU are not the meth or the gay sex, but that he was living as an American and exercising his fundamental rights! Yes, he can do that, and even be a hypocrite! It's not against the law.

I don't have any pity for the guy and even celebrated, but there is something very scary about this extreme desire to punish him despite the Constitution. It's as if a lot people could not debate the merits of the issue and jumped at the chance when he was on his knees, heh-heh.

Do I blame the wacko right and him for this mess, for this morbid desire to get even even if it costs us the Constitution? Sure, but then I think of BushCo and his excuses to dump the Bill of Rights. They aren't all that much different. There is the Axis of Evil I tell ya, and Haggard is one!

True, no one said make a law against his religion, but there is a great desire to punish, and laws soon follow.

Or maybe I just feel like debating some bullshit.

[last1standing]

24. LOL! I think you feel like debating some bullshit.

But you've found the right place for it, so it's all good. :)

I don't care that he cheated on his wife, has a meth habit, gave a guy blow-jobs, or that he thought that all of the above things were sinful. None of those things affected me or anyone else other than those directly involved - him, his wife, the prostitute and the dealer. If he had been able to work out a happy closeted life for himself I wouldn't give a Damn. My problem is that he wasn't content with that. Instead he had to attack the very rights of people just like him who don't live in the closet. He lobbied the government to install bigotry and hatred into our Constitution and for draconian drug laws that fill our prisons with non-violent offenders and ruin the futures of countless people. Yet he engaged in the very "sins" he worked so hard to keep others from practicing as though he was entitled to some sort of privilege the rest of us weren't. Yes, he has the right of free speech and no one here has seriously suggested taking that right away from him. However, we also have that right, and to imply that we are somehow wrong to use it to castigate someone who has attacked us for years is a specious argument at best.

You state "no one said make a law against his religion, but there is a great desire to punish, and laws soon follow". That's only half right. There is a great desire to punish him here. After his attempts and successes in legalizing hatred and ignorance many of us do have a desire to see Haggard castigated by the very minions he suckled with his bile. We very much want to watch as he becomes a figure of derision and ridicule as he has worked so hard to do so to us on the left. Mostly, though, I think we want people like Haggard to stop using the power of faith to create wealth and power for themselves at the expense of those in the minority. When we see someone like him fall from grace we feel vindicated in our own morals and ethics, and maybe a little smug that we were right all along. We are human after all. However, you'll find very few members of DU who would want to ban his right to religious assembly or try to stifle what he can say to his congregation so long as he doesn't venture into endorsing political candidates. I think you're setting up a straw-man argument there so why don't we knock it down before it tries to stand on its own?

[madmusic]

29. Mm, I think you just kicked my ass.

Well said, well argued.

There could be more to it though:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2587860&mesg_id=2587860

Maybe Dems and Repugs should start from there. When both sides are under attack and defensive, there is little inclination to dig into the heart of the matter.

[last1standing]

40. It's about time I won something. Maybe I'll play the lotto tonight. :-)

Thanks for linking that blog. It is nice to see some on the left already forgiving haggard out of the goodness of their hearts. However, the blog forgets an essential element in this story that seems to indicate that haggard isn't merely the product of his religion's repressive fervor, but also an elitist who felt that the rules he espoused for others did not apply to him. Of course I'm speaking about his drug use.

The only way he could have possibly been predisposed toward meth is if his mother had been a meth-addict herself, which seems very doubtful. No, haggard made a conscious choice to step outside his social and religious circles to try a drug he felt would increase his pleasure during sex. While purchasing and using this drug, he lobbied the government to increase the punishment for other people who did the same thing. He could have refused to judge drug users just as he could have refused to judge homosexuals, but for the sake of his desire for wealth and power he did not.

Look, we're all hypocrites. I am very pro-animal rights, but just finished a lunch of roast chicken. The difference between haggard and myself, however, is that I haven't castigated, ridiculed or worked to make criminals of meat eaters. Also, it should be noted that haggard hasn't asked for our forgiveness. He still calls homosexuality a "dark sin" and at this time has not reached out to the left or the gay community in any way. He has a long way to go before he rates our sympathy, I think.

Anyway, it's been good debating with you. I like to be able to discuss differing opinions without veering into insults. Thanks.

[madmusic]

41. You convinced me.

And I can be a pretty stubborn jerk. And I didn't know he called for tougher drugs laws.

Where will it go from here?

Since the right thrives on sin and decadence, since these evils are the foundations of their power, my guess is they will blame homosexuality and drugs as evil temptations and call for even more restrictions and draconian laws.

[genie_weenie]

34. I agree, what the man does with his

body is not my concern. He can ingest what ever he likes and can engage in consenual relations with whomever he likes...

[last1standing]

11. That question doesn't make sense.

I'm not trying to attack, I just want to point out that our anger here isn't directed at his honesty but his hypocrisy. The question you pose doesn't make sense in that if he had outed himself he would have most likely announced that he was changing his belief system and was urging others to do the same. We at DU would applaud him for having the courage to make such a statement. How likely would it be for him to come out of the closet, voluntarily, and tell his followers to hate people like himself? Not very.

I will admit that if he had come out and still supported the discrimination of gay people and the criminalization of the love, I would still attack him. I'd attack him for not only being a hatemonger, but a very, very stupid hatemonger. But once again, it's not a likely scenario.

[madmusic]

18. Good point, "outed" was the wrong word.

What I had in mind was a confession and a begging of forgiveness and a stern promise that he would, with God's help, return himself to the fold and quit his evil ways. Remember, the attack on him is not really from DU. He probably doesn't even know about that. And that's the real point about honesty: no matter which way he went, he was going to get attacked. Granted, being up front and taking one's bruises is a noble thing, but in the extreme culture wars we live in, it could also be masochistic at best and suicidal at worst. That's because both sides are so intolerant!

As my other post that quotes from balkin.blogspot.com reveals, it is a complex, not a simple issue.

[last1standing]

26. It's not as complex an issue as you seem to believe.

It's really rather simple. Ted Haggard built an empire based on telling other people that the very things he was doing was sinful and should be made illegal. That's called hypocrisy. If he didn't want to be attacked by the left, he could have not tried to make it illegal for two loving people to be married. If he didn't want to get attacked by the right, he could have just not set himself up as an example of Godly virtue. Instead he decided to do both things and now is reaping his bitter harvest.

The bible says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Haggard cast that first stone years ago. Now he's finding out why Jesus made that suggestion in the first place.

[madmusic]

28. See, but now you're casting stones.

How will you find out why Jesus made that statement? Indeed, the main point of my question is, "Are the Democrats traveling down the same road of hubris?" The party at one time was the party of tolerance and compassion. We seem more like the Republicans now.

Maybe that's a good thing to a degree, maybe not, but when it becomes hubris the same downfall is inevitable.

[last1standing]

39. I don't worry about casting stones as I'm not a Christian. :-)

But to answer your question about hubris, no. I don't think the average Democrat or DUer is suffering from hubris at all. We are feeling a great sense of karmic vengence, but not hubris. Also, we are in no way acting like the current incarnation of the repub party. We are not lying about haggard, we are not slandering him in any way, we are not using misleading statements to engender the creation of false impressions. We are merely enjoying the truth.

What about that don't you like?

[DURHAM D]

8. What are you talking about. He started by denying and

talking crap to the public. For some reason not known to us the board of his church requested his resignation. Unless you were in that meeting you don't know what they were told.

He is still parsing his words and has confessed around the edges to problems with his sexuality. He is still not revealing what he has really done. He has admitted some mistake because he got caught - not because he had a moment of clarity or christian goodness.

For the gay kids in his 30 million following he needs to speak out and support their rights and lives.

For the gay kids that used to be part of his 30 million and have been kicked out of the house and banished from their families he needs to take responsibility.

For the gay kids from his 30 million member family who have committed suicide - damm him forever.

He has by no measure taken full responsibility.

[wholetruth00]

16. I agree with you. He lied until he couldn't any longer.

We are all hypocrites to some degree. The diff between most of us bastards like Ted Haggard is that most of us do not try to condemn the rest of us to hell for being who we are.

[soothsayer]

27. lol! Poor bastard STILL hasn't come clean, and is dragging it out

like crazy instead of ripping it off like a bandaid in one quick yank. Just cracks me up!

[last1standing]

12. Yep, he admitted it......just as soon as he was proved to be lying.

To this point he's only admitted the bare amount necessary due to indisputable proof. He's had his legions call this guy a liar and a shill for the Democratic party, he's insulted the intelligence of his congregation (hard to do), and he's used his own children as a shield to protect him from direct questioning. Even now, that he's been caught, he calls his orientation a dark sin and something perverted and wrong, thereby tarring all other homosexuals and bisexuals when he could have used this as an opportunity to make some amends for his despicable past.

This guy owes a lot of people restitution for his actions both past and present. I can't respect that.

[William Bloode]

14. I feel sorry for him and others like him.

I have no hate for what he has done. He is as much a victim as anything. He most likely grew up being bombarded with anti gay crap. thus making him think there was something wrong with him. This man has most likely beat himself to death during his life over this. He most likely got married thinking it would 'fix' him, and may have genuine feelings for his wife. As for cheating on her, well it's not hard to see if you consider he is really gay and not attracted to women.

I sincerely wish the best for him and his family. I don't have time to waste hating him for any reason. I know what it's like to feel strange and out of place, trying hard to fit in and be 'normal'. In some ways i've been in his shoes, and it's not pretty.

[upi402]

15. he made a half measure confession

trying to maintain his self-delusion and remain in control of all those xtians.

he didn't buy narcotics and not use them

he didn't get a massage from a guy prostitute and not get ... well... maybe technically a rectum can massage a penis. Oh he's just a beacon of light and truth:sarcasm:

These people are phonies and he has not had his dose of pain yet, but he will. And at that point he has my absolute compassion. He ain't close yet.

[FoxNewsSucks]

19. Hadn't thought about that, but

I agree. Maybe he did lie at first, until he couldn't keep lying. But he did finally just come clean.

Compare that with that shitbag Tom DeLay (R-Indicted TX). Just this week on Hannity & Colmes he stated "I never had any ethical problems" and is STILL denying he is a liar and a cheat.

I guess you do have to give credit to Haggard for that.

[JI7]

20. huh ? he lied at first , only told the truth when he had to

[Garbo 2004]

21. Ah, but he still maintains that not all the allegations are true.

Hardly a full admission.

In his statement he also characterizes what evidently are his homosexual urges (he can't even bring himself to say it outright) as "repulsive and dark," "dirt." Think he's going to change his anti-gay stance?

[casus belli]

23. Closets normally are dark. Maybe he should be who he is and embrace the light. n/t

[casus belli]

22. There'a a difference between "being truthful" and realizing that people are buying a lie. n/t

[Fleshdancer]

25. He stopped lying when the audio tapes came out

I'm glad he didn't drag it out much longer since the whole "I only propositioned the prostitute for a massage" story was so very pathetic and embarrassing. Then again, the "I bought meth one time and then threw it out" story was ridiculous as well.

Having said that, I have mixed feelings about Haggard. On one hand, fuck him. I know and love so many wonderful people who deserve to have the same rights as every other American and yet people like Haggard spent millions to make sure that didn't happen. Hell, Haggard talked to the President on a regular basis for crying out loud! The hate, hypocrisy and political influence is disgusting. On the other hand, I am saddened by the fact that we live in a society where people like Haggard feel more safe in the closet. He has to look at himself in the mirror every day and my guess is that has been a hard thing to do for many years now.

As much as wish I could go back in time and wash away his (I'm assuming) decades of pain and self hatred, I can not forgive what he has done to the gay community. I wish him well though if he is willing to accept who he is and not blame his sexual infidelity on "satan" or his wife or any other excuse the weak come up with in order to lie to themselves. To make a short story long, I guess ultimately time will tell how I feel about Haggard.

[malaise]

30. He lied Wednesday, Thursday and Friday

but Jones' voice mail were made public. Do you think he was coming clean if his voice wasn't on tape? Fugg Haggard. Expose all hypocrites.

[Chomp]

31. I agree with the OP

The line: "I am a deceiver and a liar" is absolutely shocking because it is so rare to hear something even approaching honesty from RWers in these circmstances.

Still, hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha...etc...

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

32. Thus far no Jimmy Swaggart moment

[Rockstone]

33. He has honored his congregation, at least

by finally living up to the truth.

Not to excuse his choices.

[joeunderdog]

36. His LIFE is a lie. No quarter here.

Have we lowered our pathetic expectations this far? No offense to the OP, but if this is a moral victory, we've already lost.

[Carni]

37. I'll bet he frequented SEVERAL male prostitutes

I have a feeling that if he didn't come clean that others would have come flying out of the woodwork--I believe the only reason he copped to what he did was he figured he had no choice.

[Marie26]

...

[Marie26]

38. I feel some pity for him

At least Haggard came put & admitted it (eventually), and he looked devastated. Foley, meanwhile, is currently partying at some fake rehab center & hasn't expressed any remorse at all.

[yellowcanine]

42. I don't. He only admitted as much as he had to. And he "explained it"

in a very self hating way. No admission that he is probably gay and no apologies to the gay community for his gay bashing. Also he has not talked about where he got the money to pay for sex and drugs. If his wife did not know he must have been getting some cash somewhere to support that level of activity. He has told some truth that we already knew. He has not come clean so the lie continues.