Ok, I want to know. How many of you college educated cube rats

[Bluzmann57]

actually care about those of us who help you make your salaries? I mean really and truly? Those of us who are Union workers who give our blood, sweat, and tears to our jobs simply because we need to have a job? Sometimes I have to wonder. I had a talk today with an ultra lefty who was kind of snobbish because he had "six years of college" and "didn't need any Union representation". There are others like that out there too. I have met them and quite frankly, don't like them.
They are against guns, Unions, the death penalty (although I am too),anti meat eating peta types,can't deal with people liking sports, think their shit doesn't stink, think that because either they have higher IQ's or come from more "privileged" backgrounds that they are better than we are. They put down those of us who may-GASP!-drive a pickup and go fishing for fun. They are driving us "Joe six pack" types out of the Democratic Party and in my opinion, really ought to go start their own political party. Call it the elitist asshole party or something like that. To put it in a short sentence, Unions are needed more than ever today and those of you who may think otherwise should go out and try living in the real world making next to nothing. You should also quit being so idealistic and learn that the world isn't a perfect place and never will be.
Now in closing, I am not saying that all Democrats are like that, but those that are need to lighten up or just get out.

[NVMojo]

1. well, if you aren't working, neither are the rest of us ...plain truth

we are all "hoseable" by the corporations who fuck us.

[seabeyond]

2. i always figured it was on my shoulders for NOT finishing college

and never felt the need to suggest another doesnt earn their pay, or get their pay of the sweat of my work.

[electron_blue]

3. Well, I have "10 yrs of college" (PhD) and am damn glad to belong to a union!

That was a major selling point for the job when I interviewed. Don't generalize. Sounds like you got a bad apple, doesn't mean you're anti-union if you're anti-gun, anti death penalthy, vegetarian, etc.

[swag]

4. My father was military, then union, my mother was union,

my wife was union for ten years. I'm your "college educated cube rat," but I couldn't agree with you more that "unions are needed more than ever today."

Sorry whoever it was you talked to had a stick up their ass and no brain in their head.

[readmoreoften]

5. Well, as someone with eleven years of college, and multiple degrees

who just got fired for striking, I'd say the person who thinks they don't need a union because they went to college is a fool. I lost my job fighting for the right of workers to unionize and I'd do it again.

[readmoreoften]

9. Oh, and let me add that I had to move because of the strike

and now I am supporting my girlfriend who is living in the bedroom of the apartment I already share with two other people. I'm not a rich woman who had nothing to lose.

[hiaasenrocks]

6. What do you mean by this?

"Those of us who are Union workers who give our blood, sweat, and tears to our jobs simply because we need to have a job?"

Who are the people who work without needing their jobs? Who might you be referring to? Just curious, because if you think there are "cube rats" (the group you're addressing here) who don't need their jobs, I'd say you're wrong. And if you're not saying that, why make the distinction?

EDIT: Allow me to add this personal note. I'm not in a union, nor have I ever been. I did once lose a job because I stood up for people who were lower on the pay scale whom I thought were being used by the company. I helped author their written complaint to management. While that wasn't an official union action (there was no union), I think it's pretty close to an example of the need for people to have the right to organize. And I firmly believe in the right for people to organize.

My question stems from my suspicion that you're angry at this one person you met and you're generalizing another group in the workforce.

[Bluzmann57]

15. Ok I worded it wrongly

See, I'm not college educated and sometimes I may not be as eloquent as those who are, although I'd match writing skills against anybody anytime. But that's another story entirely. I realize that so called "cube rats" (what they call themselves) certainly do need jobs as much as anyone else. And overall, I have nothing against college grads, it just seems like sometimes some, both in here and in the outside world seem to think that they are better than others simply because they are more educated than some.
on edit-I may have good writing skills, but still can't type worth doodly. Corrected words now as well as punctuation.

[hiaasenrocks]

20. Please read my edit in the post above. It's important to the

discussion so you know where I'm coming from.

And I'll add one more thing: I didn't graduate from college. I left school to take a job that offered more money than I was capable of turning down at the time. I'm not talking millions, or even hundreds of thousands, so I'm not bragging. It was just a very good opportunity for me. So I left school and never went back.

I don't question peoples' intelligence based upon their formal education. I know from first-hand experience that education can occur in the most informal ways, and in many ways my informal education (outside of school) has served me well. So you and I are on the same page here, in that respect.

[flyarm]

70. college degree here and just retired life long union worker!! n/t

[Dob Bole]

113. I'm not allowed to be in a union, but I'm from a union household...

Teachers in my state are actually banned from joining unions.

[mcscajun]

7. Not all college-educated Democrats are like that certainly.

The disease you describe crosses all political lines. There are "elitist assholes" in every party, and they are not all college-educated.

I'm a college-educated Democrat raised by a Teamster father and a mom who did clerical work, and I never forget where I came from. Good thing, too, because all my college education didn't do me much good when the work my department did was shipped off to India three years ago. Coming from next-to-nothing is a big help when you have to slide down the compensation ladder.

I own a gun (but I'm not a member of the NRA), I support Unions, applaud union actions (like the one recently that stopped a union member from being flown to India for medical treatment), I eat meat, I'm against the death penalty; sorry, I *do* find sports boring, so I plead guilty on that count, and I'm no better or worse than you or anyone else because of my education or (supposed/possible) higher IQ. I certainly do not come from a privileged background (college education is not limited to the privileged, thank goodness), and don't consider myself among those against which you are ranting.

Take a deep breath, look around, and you'll find that the "elitist assholes" you've run into are the exception rather than the rule among Democrats. They certainly are, anyway, among the Democrats I know.

[Canuckistanian]

86. I like your explanation

And I'm very similar to you in both education and outlook.

I've been college-educated and belonged to three unions (even unionized one company myself).

I'd love to have the protection of a union in my job now.

As for the OP's problems, yeah, arrogant snobs are everywhere. They seem to transcend political borders.

[mcscajun]

104. Thanks.

:hi:

[Glorfindel]

8. You just met a bad apple, I think

MOST Democrats deeply appreciate the electricians, carpenters, plumbers, civil servants, communications workers, and others who belong to unions, contribute so much to the party, and actually make the country work. If they don't, shame on them. Having 6 years of college is all very well and good, but of what practical use is a master's degree in Romance languages or Medieval poetry? These people have no right to feel superior to others. However, if you want to be treated with contempt, try being from Georgia or (much worse!) Mississippi. The "elitists" sneer and turn their backs and the good ol' boys detest you for being a liberal Democrat. :toast:

[AlinPA]

10. I am college educated and believe unions are absolutely necessary.

My parents and grandparents (and my wife's) were all coal miners who belonged to unions and would have suffered more without the union support. They retired in dignity, only because of the UMWA. I was in a union in a former job and was damn glad to pay my dues. Otherwise, I would have been treated like garbage. With all due respect, you may want to think again about trashing people with colleges degrees and not lump everyone together as elites just because they don't have the same lifestyle preferences. (I love fishing for fun, and use a room deodorizer in our bathroom to "coverup" too). I see where you are coming from though.

[NRaleighLiberal]

16. ...another here who is college educated but strongly supportive of

unions. We need to keep and maintain our big tent...so sorry you ran into what seems to be the left wing version of the typical right wing jerk. My mom didn't work, dad never did finish high school - had to drop out to help make money to allow the family to eat, ended up as a mill worker/was in unions and picketed when necessary - proudly. I worked hard for my degree, including paying my way through school working at a grocery store - and in a union... and continue to work hard today. I never take anything that surrounds me for granted - and think that what we need to do is to use the compassion and brains we've been born with for whatever ends benefits our families, society, the world. We each have our preferences, but what unites the vast majority of us, I hope, is that we can feel for others and care for the world.

[charlyvi]

11. You have something against college?

I was born and raised in a working class neighborhood in Southside Chicago, worked my way through college and now belong to a union. Stereotype much? I think a college education is an admirable thing, and I won't apologize for it.

[Atman]

48. As Bush's economy left him behind, one of my friends has starts to shun me

and my wife because we don't "work." Oh, sure, we have jobs, but we don't work. You see, he WORKS. He has to get up early, and he has to sweat to earn his paycheck, which has decreased steadily since Bush took office, and his military benefits cut, and he can't afford his own health insurance. He has become noticeably bitter, and unfortunately has begun to take it out on those around him. Reverse "elitism" if you want to call it that, even though I never spent a day in college. He has to work 50-60 hours a week for barely half what my wife alone makes (who has her masters and is partners in a successful, growing practice). It really toasts his ass to have to work -- WORK! -- on Saturdays just to make ends meet, while we pointy-headed elitists coast through life getting paid to work in offices (actually, I work in my home studio and set my own hours -- even worse!).

I know much of the reason for his attitude; he watches Fox News exclusively (no newspapers or internet) and thinks Bill O'Reilly "really tells it like it is," even though he wouldn't vote for Bush in 2004 because of the cuts in his benefits. He's lied to every night that the economy is swell and life is swell and everyone is doing swell. But not him. Some people just can't spot a clue when it is dangling right in front of them.

Neither of us would agree with the op's sentiment. I think, as he stated, that unions are more important than ever. If my buddy was in one, he might not be finding himself so screwed right now.

[last1standing]

12. What an incredibly rude post.

What you're saying is that educated people can be insulted and stereo-typed but don't DARE say a disparaging word against blue-collared, gun loving, pick-up driving, Union members. You've even decided that unless everyone agrees with you completely, they should "just get out" of the Democratic Party.

I'm a high school educated guy from a Union family, but I understand that going around ridiculing and excluding others is the best way to make Damned sure they don't support us. I guess some in the elitist, asshole, gun-toting, "Joe six pack", Union groups don't quite get that.

Now in closing, I'm not saying that all Union members are ignorant assholes, because I've known too many to think that. I do, however, think that anyone telling others that they need to get out of the party needs to lighten up.

[AlinPA]

13. Check my updated post, I earlier typed "with union support" by mistake.

It should be "without" My grandfather could not be in the unions because they were not active then and he was treated terribly in the mines.

[StatGirl]

14. I have a few more years of college than he does . . .

. . . and I am not only a member of my own union, I'm an officer on its Executive Board.

Although I have a professional job title, my employer considers me to be just another expense to be minimized -- just as people like the Bushes consider me to be part of the 95% of America that belongs to the servant class -- and I'm not too hung-up on my own over-education to know who my true comrades are in the class wars. That's why I'm a Democrat.

[Mountainman]

17. I have always been a manager ever since I graduated and one thing that gets to me,

almost any industry has an industry organization that looks out for what's good for the industry. They have monthly magazines and there are always articles about how to get the most for your labor dollar. Now what I see is a united industry united by the industry organization who is faced by the individual worker who is on his own. Individually the worker has no power in this confrontation. Only if the workers are as united as the industry leaders are is there a fair playing field. The anti labor jargon is mostly anecdotal, such as you can't move a piece of trash out of your way or something like that, you have to call a union worker to do it because of the contract. You never here the anecdotal information on how bad the manager was to the worker. I am not in a union but my dad was in a union for all his working life. We had a decent life even though my dad was a factory worker. I am sure that without his union my childhood would not have been as good as it was. I am one college educated person who is not anti union. I have even said so in some anti union meetings I was forced to attend. I believe that only through collective bargaining can an individual have anywhere near the chips to play in the game that the industry leaders do. I want a world were everyone has a decent standard of living not one were there is a rich ruling class and a poor working class.

BTW, I am a vegetarian who owns a gun and drives a pickup truck. I ride a horse, wear western clothes and have to fence cows off my property though I don't fish, hunt or like sports. What kind of a fucked up Dem am I?

[sandnsea]

23. That is just an excellent point

I had absolutely never thought about the fact that every industry has some sort of advocacy organization. The California Raisins came out of an advocacy organization. It is certainly only logical that workers have the same thing and is probably the best counter-argument to all those total free market types.

[TomClash]

18. I talk and write about class issues all the time

Bread and butter issues. Few people listen.

One problem is that there is no penalty for screwing your workers. And many overeducated people couldn't give a shit about working people - white or black or brown - tyhese people annoy me because they are the first to cry when they get fired or hurt.

I think American business is shortsighted. I pay my workers well and they work reasonable hours. And their benefits are good - for example, they don't pay for their health care - I do - including the deductible. I have been called a fool - others in my business have literally laughed at me - but I think I'm smart. I get better people who are more committed to their work, so my services are better and maybe people buy more. I make a little less money than I could in the short run - so what? In the long run, I'm happier, healthier and so are the people I spend a good portion of my life with. You can't measure that in dollars.

[readmoreoften]

21. "Overeducated" people can't get jobs either and many of them are in unions.

What is "overeducated" anyway?

[TomClash]

29. People who have "multiple degrees"

and think that makes them so "educated" they no longer have to think for themselves and are better than everyone else.

[readmoreoften]

37. Oh, so because I have multiple degrees I no longer think for myself.

And I think I'm "better than everyone else". Nice.

[MountainLaurel]

53. Who knew?

And here I thought I was getting those multiple degrees to get into a field that would help other people.

:shrug:

[TomClash]

58. Who was referring to you?

Actually, since you were fired for starting a union I would imagine you would not be one of those people.

[sandnsea]

19. Gosh

Those people don't exist, it's all in your imagination. ;)

I get mad when idealists insist on single payer when I can't even see a doctor, I know what you mean.

OTOH, I also get mad when union type Dems use words like 'gun grabber', slander vegetarians, ridicule education, etc etc.

It works both ways I guess.

[Fridays Child]

22. I'm a college educated former cube rat who understands the...

...history of unions and what they've done for this country. I am the biggest supporter of unions who has never been in a union, that you will ever meet. I contribute to them financially and was made an honorary member of a local in California (it wasn't formal, by any means, but, still, I was pleased).

Anyone who says that he or she wouldn't benefit from union representation is an adversary of union members. That's not to say they should be shunned but, sometimes, even the smartest most "colleged-up" liberals need a history lesson. In all likelihood, unless their blood has been blue for generations, they enjoyed that college education plus current employment benefits such as health insurance, weekends off, vacations, and a lot of other things they take for granted, only because union members fought and even died for them.

If you've lost benefits or you work somewhere that has never offered them to you, take a look at how the Republicans have successfully gutted collective bargaining since the Reagan era--think air traffic controllers. To this day, the right wing continues to do everything it can to destroy unions and give all power over workers to the corporations who give a damn about only the bottom line and couldn't care less if the cogs in their wealth machines live or die. Only unions can protect workers.

And, for those who point to union corruption stories as a reason to give them up and cede power to corporations, I have one word: Walmart. Any entity that gets too big will grow its share of warts but we can't throw the baby out with the bath water. We need unions. Period.

[MazeRat7]

24. Yeah!!!....and I'll bet they watch South Park and own a Pitbull too....

:sarcasm:

MZr7

[Bluzmann57]

25. Ok. To all who are offended.

Maybe I didn't write the exact words that I meant to. I'm not really sorry, but I guess this post is going to be retired. Please note, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST COLLEGE, and I AM NOT TRYING TO STEREOTYPE!!!!!! I am just tired of some, both here in DU and elsewhere trying to talk about "sheeple" and being "ignorant" because we may not agree with them. One more thing before I go, try reading the entire post.

[eppur_se_muova]

40. "Ignorance" does NOT necessarily imply lack of education -- most people here use it to

refer to those who won't BOTHER to learn about what's happening NOW -- the ones who watch Fox News or other Money$tream Media and don't question what they're hearing, or don't bother to keep up with events at all. It's not what they learned (or didn't learn) in school that's the problem, it's what they THINK (or don't bother to think).

Hope you're wrong about this thread being locked, I think you are not the only one who could say "Maybe I didn't write the exact words that I meant to". Happens to all of us, sooner or later.

[charlyvi]

49. Wow. Way to make the situation worse.

Was this some kind of explanation? You say you have nothing against college, but begin your post with "How many of you college educated cube rats actually care about those of us who help you make your salaries?" Huh? We earn our salaries on the backs of people who "really" work? We don't give our blood, sweat and tears to our jobs? Oh, I get it. Our degrees allow us to sit on our asses all day and avoid "real" work.

You aren't trying to stereotype? Really? "They are against guns, Unions, the death penalty, anti meat eating peta types, can't deal with people liking sports, thinking their shit doesn't stink, think that because either they have higher IQ's or come from more "privileged" backgrounds that they are better than we are". Way not to stereotype.

I am a college educated, high IQ, meat eating, Jeep driving, cornbread loving, gun hating, ultra lefty union member. I work in the Social Services field trying to help people as best I can. I work my ass off. And your OP is incredibly insulting.

I now live in a small town in rural Alabama, surrounded by "Joe six pack" guys who drive pick-ups and go fishing. And some of them are the most elitist people I've ever met in my life. It works both ways. Joe six packhood does not automatically earn you a get out of Assholeville free card.

It's the person, not the education, money, eating habits or leisure activities. It's all about the individual.

[readmoreoften]

51. Not to mention that MANY joe six packs in the south are anti-union.

How many scabs, strikebreakers, and union busters are also "average joes"?
How many intellectuals were/are members of the IWW?

The persona means nothing.

[charlyvi]

52. Actually, many of the original union organizers and activists

back in the 20's and 30's were Socialists, some even Communists. Oops! Our education is showing!

[Occulus]

98. While I'm sure much of what you wrote is true as you see it,

there are ALSO plenty of people out there who don't lift more than 15 pounds at once on the job, sit behind a desk all day long, "make decisions", get paid two or three times what I do, and state with total confidence that unions aren't necessary because workers today would never tolerate the sort of conditions that led to unions arising in the first place.

The irony is, the businesses who depend on them to do the "hard work" of "making decisions" are, more and more, inflicting upon their workers the very same sorts of abuses that led to the rise of organized labor in the first place. But, they don't see that and, when they do, think of them as isolated cases.

They also tend to think of unions as a way for "slackers" to make "as much as I do (or would) for doing less work." And that's as far as their eyes see when it comes to unions, because "companies that don't offer benefits won't get good employees" and that those companies will "go out of business".

The quotes comes from a friend of mine, who drives trucks for a living. He "doesn't need a union" to "let people get paid for slacking off".

You would not believe how many people think that way, and yes, Reagan is directly to blame.

[Jed Dilligan]

26. PhD. here, union member

Pro-gun rights, eat meat, drink beer.

[readmoreoften]

45. Ditto.

But I don't drink beer. I do drink whiskey, though.

[boolean]

27. Anybody against unions is a RIGHTY, not a lefty

The person you describe is also known as a "freeper".

[LiberalPartisan]

39. Depends on the union

Currently janitors in Houston are working to organize and unionize because they cannot earn a wage that will support themselves, let alone a family. I'm all for that. Then you have the UAW who seem to have made it their mission to kill the US auto industry. The difference is one industry is local and one is global. In the age of globalization, to remain competive, the auto industry must divest itself of labor and automate to the Nth degree. Jobs will be lost in one industry/area while jobs will be gained in another - adapt or be left behind. The age of the unions as we once knew them is all but over, which is a travesty, because it was unions that gave the US the middle class. With globalization manufacturing must move to cheaper cost centers. The question is will this country invest in the education required to produce the technologies of the future to replace those we shed and in doing so insure the existence of the middle class?

[Occulus]

99. dupe

hit me with a wet noodle

[Occulus]

100. And the answer is, no, we won't.

And we won't because corporations are able to send jobs overseas to nations in which the cost of living is so low that the workers can be paid a tenth of what US workers are, and then those products and services are sold back to the US.

This cannot continue forever. It's happening across multiple job sectors, be it manufacturing or technoloy or tech support or whatever. It can't be stopped until and unless corporations lose the personhood they require to make autonomous decisions that have a severe negative impact on the communities in which they "reside".

The only way we can stem this tide is to end corporate personhood. Revoke their so-called "rights", and put them directly under the thumb of both the state that issued their charter and the locality in which they "reside". They are legal constructs solely geared toward maximizing the bottom line; fines are paid with a smile because they can afford the fins as a cost of doing business, for example. Regulations and laws are ignored because they only have to pay a fine when they get caught, rather than liquidate their assets to their employees' benefit (and only their employees; their investors should have to sue the ownership to get the money back, not financially murder their employees) and close their doors if they break even a single law.

I'm very, very hardline about this. Corporations should have no rights and should be very, very tightly controlled such that they don't step even the width of a toe outside their charter- and that charter should always begin with, "for the good of the People of the State of X". If they act in a way that harms the people of the state that issued their charter, it's bye-bye liquidation time.

I hate the concept of the corporation with a passion for this reason and this reason alone. They all desperately require direct public influence, if not outright control.

[philosophie_en_rose]

28. Wow. Way to be divisive.

I have more than 10 years of college, and I can tell you that unions are very important to professionals.

Your snobby friend might be anti-union, but there is no reason to assume that every educated person is the same.

[tblue]

30. Whoa! I am sorry that creep offended you with that classist crap

I apologize on that person's behalf.

Nobody is better than anybody. I think we should all have tremendous respect for Labor and blue-color workers in general. I was just explaining to my son yesterday how the Union movement started in this country, and what a hard-fought battle it was and still is to this day.

College might give people an edge in certain types of employment, but it doesn't make them superior and it sure doesn't make them wise. I guess there are elitists in every party, religion, race, and nation. Among the Repuglicans in power, there's nothing to suggest anything but contempt for Union workers or the working class in general, let alone the poor. But I'm sorry to hear that 'ultra lefty' make those stupid remarks. That was just dumb. Obviously it's someone who's been sheltered and who doesn't think before he/she speaks.

For the record, I have a graduate degree and I'm a vegetarian, but my dad was a bus driver and my mom was always a homemaker, and I am damned proud of both of them. We were poor when I was a kid, but I never knew it. My dad grew up during the Depression, a black man in Misssissippi and then Chicago, and he instilled in me certain sensibilities about what's really important. Like him, I am a huge baseball fan and I love watching basketball, too. I can hang with anybody and watch a ballgame. I always, always, always root for, and identify with, the little guy, the disenfranchised, and the underdog. Always have, always will.

[Caution]

31. throw out a few stereotypes there why don't you?

I'm not a fan of guns, the death penalty and I'm a college educated cube dwellar and frankly your post is really fucking insulting. I work my ass off, I've worked in the trades before and understand how difficult it is. Just because one asshole made you feel badly doesn't mean every college educated person behaves in the same manner. I consistently vote pro-union, my best friend from college is a long time union organizer and he regularly asks my opinion on union-related issues and how I think they will play with non-union voters. So why don't people like you who clearly are pissed off at college-educated people go start your own party. Call it the "I fucking hate educated people because they make me feel badly for not being educated myself" party.

Just keep playing towards the bullshit "elitist" liberal crap started by Rush Limbaugh.

As for a priveleged background, there are plenty of people, like myself, who grew up in the projects, whose parents worked in the trades and in union jobs who pushed and scrimped and saved to put people like me through college. I'll never forget where I came from, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try as hard as I can to not go back there. So please take your own high and mighty "working man" bullshit somewhere else.

[Lex]

60. Seriously.

That broad-brushing crap is just divisive.

[Lerkfish]

32. oddly enough, I'm a college educated cube rat UNION member

so are you saying I'm at odds with myself?

[johnaries]

33. Some great posts in this thread. I would like to add

that I am a cube-rat who never finished college and I work for a company that doesn't have a union.

We don't unionize because our company as a great HR department that takes good care of it's employees.

Now, WHY do we have a great HR department? Because they don't want us to UNIONIZE!

So, Unions have a positive impact even in industries that don't have Unions.

[hfojvt]

34. jam bluzmann

:headbang:

Congrats on 5,000.

I am a college educated janitor. Semi-retired. I have some problems with Gompers-type unions. I worked as a temp in a union factory - for six whole days before they laid off all their temps. I worked as a temp for about 3 years in a Kraft factory. A union organizer contacted some of the workers there, so management shut the factory down for a couple hours so the workers could hear from a company anti-union person. The thing is, the union would have only helped the so-called 'full time' workers, who were already making twice as much as me - plus benefits. It seems to me that the Gompers strategy made union workers into wealthier people who, many times, do not care about the rest of the working class - including, perhaps, college educated cube-rats who do not make tons of money.

But before 2004, I was part of the AFL-CIO e-activist network, and it seems like they are the closest we have to an American Association of Working People.

[eppur_se_muova]

35. Well, you sound pissed, but I'm *willing* to assume you have some reason.

But I think you need to stay pissed of at this one guy, and not generalize to others.

I'm willing to bet the guy you talked to came from a family that was well-to-do enough that he never had to work difficult jobs in college, or get saddled with ruinous student loan debt. So he's never had a bad break, and has no idea what it's like. Like all too many people, he can't (or more likely WON'T) try to see just how much of his position is due to good luck, or at least absence of bad luck. He's clueless, and can't even imagine what a clue would look like. Being raised in a comfy cocoon will do that to you.

And if he thinks he'll never need a union, now or in the future, he may be trained, but not educated. Anyone who knows enough about American history should know that it's the actions of unions which provided an alternative to the Communist movement, and reined in the excesses of the Robber Barons that controlled industry. (OK, we need a repeat now.) Of course, it's getting harder and harder to find that history taught in schools, as "pro-business" types take over the school boards and reject history books that feature unions a little too prominently, so expect ignorance about unions to increase for a while.

Don't think for a minute that guy was typical of most "white collar" workers, or educated people, or even academics. Even academic faculty, who used to think they didn't need such things, are organizing, and so are graduate students, who probably need it more than anybody.

[SeattleGirl]

36. I'm college-educated, and I totally support unions, even though

I've not worked at a company that had a union. Most of my family are union members, and I've seen the good that unions do.

I'm also a big sports fan (including NASCAR); don't own guns myself, but know lots of folks who own them and like to go hunting; I love to fish; I didn't come from a privileged background, but from a family with a blue collar dad and a pink collar mom; and I chose to go to college because I wanted to do something different than what I was doing, and I had to have a college degree to accomplish that -- I don't think I'm better than someone who doesn't have a college education. I've worked in fast-food jobs, retail jobs, and I've even been a gas jockey. Like many people, I am a compilation of many things; not a stereotype.

[msmcghee]

38. I'm hearing a lot of denials by so-called elitists that . .

. . they have anti-union, anti-working class feelings. Their message seems to be that one should not generalize about people's intentions. I wholeheartedly agree.

And the same goes for unions. College educated Dems are not necessarily bad folks - and unions aren't necessarily always the good guys either.

I started a small business several years ago that required me to travel to trade shows and display my company's wares. I did this by myself for the most part and to save money I bought some booth display backdrops and things that I could wheel in on their built-in dollies and erect myself with minimal tools.

That worked fine west of the Mississippi but on the East coast, unions hold sway. That meant I had to hire union labor to do anything in my booth. The teamsters got to put my gear on a cart and wheel it to my booth. Carpenters and riggers had to be hired to assemble it. (Since they weren't familiar with the equipment I had to show them how - but I'd get in serious trouble if a used a screwdriver to demonstrate.)

The decorators had to hang the signage and the electricians had to hook up the electricity and lights - all of which cost me several hundred extra dollars for every show.

I didn't blame the union guys that did the work. It was the silly laws that union PACs and money funneled into politics was successful at implementing.

The part that really got me angry however was the Teamsters. Invariably these were Italian guys with walkie-talkies driving around on electric carts - ordering the black guys around who actually did the work. I never saw one of those Italian guys lift a finger or get their clothes dirty - but they sure knew how to be bosses.

Unions aren't all good and college educations aren't all bad. I don't have any degrees myself and I've worked for wages as a carpenter, a commercial fisherman and an electronic tech in my life - as well as starting a business or two.

Every group has its assholes and idiots - and every group imaginable has some really good people. My experience is that no matter if a person ends up with a college education or with a union card and swinging a hammer for a living - that will have little or no bearing on the personal qualities they develop in life - FWIW.

Leave the sweeping generalizations to the right wing. They have it down cold.

[demosincebirth]

42. I agree that every group has its assholes and idiots, but

what goup has done more for workingmen/women in this country?

[msmcghee]

43. Not all unions have been good for workers.

Although many have. My point was don't generalize - about people - or unions.

[demosincebirth]

44. Name one.

[readmoreoften]

46. Tee hee. Phony, fake-o company unions.

Even the worst union is better than no union.

[msmcghee]

62. Your challenge . .

. . and your avatar indicates that you might believe that all labor unions are only good for workers and never do anything that is bad for workers.

I am generally pro-union - but I do not have religious-like beliefs about unions. My common sense and life experience tells me that wherever large amounts of money flow - that much of that money will flow into the pockets of those who have the political power to make that happen.

Throughout the seventies and eighties it was shown that almost all large labor unions were thoroughly controlled and operated by organized crime - especially the Cosa Nostra.

I have not watched labor unions closely since then and TCN has been largely shut down - so I have no firsthand current knowledge of the situation. However, I would doubt that all labor unions do only good for their workers and never take any advantage of their power to exact union dues, sign sweetheart deals with management, etc.

But if you think otherwise - that's fine with me too. :toast:

[demosincebirth]

89. It is a lot different now, not all unions were like you said,

Many have been working for the members for years. I retired on a union pension at the age of 58 with enough income to do what I want, when I want. Thanks to the Teamsters.

[demosincebirth]

41. Great rant! Thats exactly the way I feel.

The life blood of the democratic party "Union Labor". Right on, brother!

[readmoreoften]

47. Sure. But why perpetuate the myth that college educated people

don't need labor? Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you are not a completely expendible commodity to your employer. Academic labor and the publishing industry being the ultimate examples, IMO.

[readmoreoften]

50. This is a false cage match: union vs. college educated is a myth.

What about teacher's unions?
Technical writers?
Lawyers?
Communications workers?
Editors?

Etc., etc....


There are plenty of college educated people who HAVE and NEED unions. This false dichtomy between degreed and non-degreed makes it harder for certain occupations to unionize-- which saps power from the labor movement as a whole.

The only REAL dichotomy is MANAGEMENT vs WORKER.

[robinlynne]

72. And wasn't that exactly the (false) argument Bush used against Kerry?

[bluedogyellowdog]

54. I've been on both sides of that divide

at different times in my life. Blue collar union member *and* college educated cube rat. And yeah, I know what you're talking about here. Although I think it's just a few bad apples who use the term "redneck" in a racist, classist manner interchangably with republican or conservative, and make a point of loudly disparaging people who drive pickup trucks, hunt and fish, like country music or NASCAR, live in rural areas, etc. They're a few bad apples and they know who they are. Most people have an instinctive understanding of why class matters and which side of the class divide the Democratic Party stands. That's been my experience.

[Malikshah]

55. Flame away Flame away... Jeez...put out bait much?

Lighten up Francis.

[AnnInLa]

56. Uh, well, I belong to the largest union in the USA,

the National Education Association. Am college-educated. Hubby is a member of Pipeliners Local 798. He is not college-educated. We do not cross picket lines. We both pay dues.

I am of the opinion that college-educated people support unions more than non college-educated people, especially here in the South, where people have been brain-washed for many years that unions are communistic and actually hurt the working man/woman. We teachers in my parish went out on strike some years back, and our non-educated (mostly) school board (who were mostly farmers) accused us of being Communists. They were dead serious. Sigh. They called us "rebel rousers." Sigh/lol. (Should have been rabble rousers.)

[ljm2002]

57. Oh dear...

...sorry you had to deal with an anti-union so-called "leftist".

Unfortunately, a lot of anti-union stuff has crept into the general consciousness. The two main reasons for this, as I see it, are (a) the Republican, anti-New Deal forces have been working hard for the last 50 years to dismantle all advances made by Labor; and (b) the Democratic Party has largely abandoned its populist roots for a pro-corporate stance. So while the conservatives have been busy tearing down unions at every turn, there has been no consistent voice to strongly defend unions. Now, it is quite unfashionable to take an unabashed pro-union position -- which in our present shallow society, is more important than taking a reasoned position on anything political.

As far as "lighten up or just get out", right now would be a very bad time to kick people out of the party... just sayin'. ;-)

[aikoaiko]

59. Personally, I have mixed feelings about unions

While unions changed the working world for the better in many ways, it also seems like the maintain and protect mediocrity within their own ranks. I guess with the good come the bad.

[Berry Cool]

65. It's true--plenty of college-educated professionals belong to unions

or once belonged to unions.

I was one, once. Unfortunately, when my employer at that job decided it didn't want to renew my contract, the union was worse than useless at fighting for me. So there are unions, and there are unions.

It should also not be assumed that every college-educated person has had a more financially comfortable life than someone who has not been to college. I have two degrees, but I would not have been able to earn them without a truckload of scholarships, grants and loans. I make a poor example of an "elitist" born with a silver spoon in the mouth. I would also look pretty bad looking down my nose at those who are not college educated, given that a non-college-educated person raised me and that two of my siblings have only a few scattered community college classes under their belts.

The simple fact is--people just can't be categorized that easily.

[Lex]

61. Making broad-brush accusations against fellow Democrats

is counter-productive and divisive.

It sounds like you've met some people you don't like, but it's not the fact that they are Democrats that you don't like them. It's for OTHER reasons.

Sort that out first before you start trashing Dems here.

[donco6]

63. I'm an at-will employee in an at-will state.

I guess I'm evil because I have a post-grad degree. Oh well. I'm gay, too, so that means I'm going to hell anyway.

[DawgHouse]

64. Many "cube rats" are regular working stiffs.

Call center, customer service, admins, accounting clerks, etc. I think most cube rats" that I know are not college educated. Most are female, working in support positions. I just wanted to give a shout out to all those admin people who don't have the opportunity to unionize and are barely making ends meet.

[readmoreoften]

76. I would say ALL cube rats are regular working stiffs.

If they were upper management or owners, they'd have a damn office.

[Nevernose]

66. The SEIU is the fastest growing union + has a LOT of "cube rats"

College educated cube rats, at that. And the largest union in the country is the NEA -- college educated teachers, most with six year degrees. I've been in both unions, because, not being wealthy, it took me a long time to finish my college degree. I've worked as a drywaller, tilesetter, billboard-hanger, pizza guy, taxi driver, and a bunch of other things. I've been in the SEIU, and am currently an NEA member.

On the weekends, I like to drink cheap beer, fire up the barbecue smoker, and maybe work on the electrical in my house. To be fair to your caricature of educated liberals, though, it's been too long since I've been fishing, and I don't go hunting. I'm not actually opposed to hunting, but I've got very poor vision, worse coordination, and it's too damned cold during hunting season.

If it weren't for college-educated folk like me, odds are you and your children wouldn't know how to read, much less post to the Internet.

You don't have to "like them." You just have to change their way of viewing things. You won't sell the importance of unions by putting people down. The same goes for them, of course, but "change begins at home."

[yorkiemommie1]

67. I have multiple degrees

and a low paying, parttime job which I enjoy. I fought like hell to establish a union for our classification in the school district. It took YEARS and a nasty layoff during which the district eliminated our benefits and cut our hours before the union thing passed. Twenty years it took!

[Sabriel]

68. College-educated, union since 1989

And I always spell out for my students the importance of unions, both past and present.

Hey, if it weren't for unions, I could've been fired for my last pregnancy.

Go NEA/AFT/TAAUWP!

[BlooInBloo]

69. I've always been completely pro-union - regardless of whether or not....

... it benefits ME personally.

Which is not to say I won't criticize this-or-that union if/when it does something wrong. It is to say that I'm perfectly down with the union's existence, as a response to the current-and-historical causes of its existence.

[Skidmore]

71. I'm a college educated used to be cube rat until earlier in the year,

and I firmly believe in unions and the need for a new labor movement. I've had cube rat jobs and not cube rat jobs and been a union member whenever a union was available at the place of employment. In both cases, I've needed to have a job--I'm not independently wealthy. Second, some of my cube rat jobs were just as exhausting as some of my not cube rat jobs. I understand your criticism and the point you are making. It is justifiable. I just want you to know that there are those of us out here who are not so easily pegged.

[Generic Other]

73. I am a union woman with a college education and a job

A good combination!

[Nikki Stone 1]

74. I've got a master's and have always been a member of the teachers' union

I wouldn't teach without union representation.

[Mr_Spock]

75. Nice rant

I have days when I hate the seeming snobbery of some of the "liberals" here too. Don't blame the Democrats alone for the weakness of unions. Some is the unions own fault, some is the fault of non-union outfits like WalMart etc (whom I boycott), a lot has to do with the Republicans and thier corporate cronies trying to destroy unions who supported Democrats for years. Some is due to the attitudes of educated people who can't relate to unions any more, but I would say it's a very small part of the overall problem IMHO, though perhaps the easiest for you to blame. Don't blame a few idealistic liberals for todays unions problems - there is plenty of blame to go around.

[lostnotforgotten]

77. Two College Degrees Here - Pro Union All The Way!

eom

[Fovea]

78. Would you like a hammer for that wedge?

Thanks for doing Karl's work for him.

[porkrind]

79. Unions are great, but

I don't like the accusatory tone of your post. You sound intolerant and elitist while accusing others of being elitist. I'm a "college educated cube rat" AND a "joe six pack", and I'm on your side, but calling me an asshole just pisses me off. Did you ever think that your job might be made possible by the work of others? Lighten up on the self-righteousness and get over yourself.

[Vexatious Ape]

88. thanks for the Chomskey link

[smoogatz]

80. Here in WI, college professors are prohibited by law from unionizing--

and we're getting screwed by the wingnut dipshits on our state legislature, six ways 'til Tuesday. If I could legally join a union in my current job, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Before I was a college professor I worked as a touring musician, landscaper, construction worker, and in telephone sales, mail order and retail. In every job I've ever had, I've always preferred hanging out with the guys on the loading dock to the management types in the upstairs lunchroom (usually to the detriment of promotions and raises). I used to be an avid sports fan, but I got tired of paying money to root for a bunch of drug-enhanced multimillionaires who can't be bothered to leg out a grounder to 2nd base. I now generally prefer wine to beer and vodka to whiskey, but mostly because beer was making me fat, and whiskey gives me a hangover. That said, who gives a flying fuck? What makes us Democrats is that we believe that somebody has to regulate the corporations, somebody has to protect the environment, somebody has to apply a little common sense to national security matters, somebody has to see to it that the kids get an education, and somebody has to ensure that government acts for the common good, and not the exclusive benefit of the privileged few. None of the superficial stuff matters, my friend--you've got to think big picture.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. Problem Is, Not All Unions Or Union Members Give Their "blood, sweat, and tears"

to their jobs. At my place of employment, the manufacturing floor is Union and the rest is not. There are some Union members who give us their all, but overall the majority of them take advantage of every rule and loophole they can and their productivity is a half to a third of what could be done from any average Joe or Jane that came in. It is extremely frustrating.

I'll agree that many Unions are absolutely mandatory, and many of them do have members that give their blood, sweat, and tears to their jobs. It is also definitely unfair for any college educated person to think themselves superior, as college education in and of itself is meaningless in many ways towards on the job ability.

So I guess in this case, I don't agree with either side of your argument.

[Autonomy]

82. Unions, yes

Pots calling kettles black, no.

[StellaBlue]

83. I am a college-educated cube rat.

I am the first in my family to get a degree. I make $12 an hour in two part-time jobs with no benefits. I am a vegetarian who mostly walks and rides a bicycle. I think hunting is at best silly and at worst horribly cruel and pig-headed. I also love football and am considering joining the wobblies. I owe a massive, massive amount of student debt and can't find any decent work, blue or white collar.

Go suck an egg.

[trekbiker]

91. Hi Stella...

I knew I'd run into you again... $12/hr??? in New York?? what is your degree?

I was reading this thread getting ready to blast this idiot OP but why dredge up all my old hostility. In a way I suppose I should be thankfull that the "good ole boy" union system that fucked me over after I tried for a year to break into the IBEW in the early '80's directly led to my college degree and subsequent success.. I just wanted a good job but I did'nt have any relatives or even any friends in the union. There is a reason the IBEW entrance exam was about 3rd grade level.. so that any union electrician's son, no matter how retarded, could pass it. The system is rigged on all levels, union, management, corporate... It's one big game and its not fair. After the IBEW shut me down I marched over to the local state college and enrolled. That day in 1981 is forever etched in my mind. I worked a dozen shitty non-union jobs before getting my engineering degree.. and you know what? guys like this OP usually did'nt.. they lucked out with a good job right out of high school making great money and now 20+ years later are crying about it. fuck 'em

[StellaBlue]

105. Austin, Texas

BA and MA in English. Wanted to be a university professor. Decided during the MA that the job market was hopeless, as well as realized that I hated all the requisite BS. Have tried in vain to get a job in communications, admin, publishing. Now working two low-level state jobs, both part time, hence no benefits.

All my friends are in the same position. The going rate is $12 an hour. Some are lucky enough to have health insurance. It blows. This guy can kiss my white collar ass.

[survivor999]

95. Damn, is it that bad?

What area do you live in?

[buddysmellgood]

84. Please clarify: If I have my own office, am I lumped in with the "Cube rats"?

If I know several pooch-screwing union workers, do I get to generalize and go off on all union workers as you did those with a college education? Is it only possible to give blood, sweat and tears in a union job?
If your goal was to create support for unions, I'd say yours was a poor post.

[MethuenProgressive]

85. My Union sucked, bluzmann: CWA local 1365

Protected non-productive workers who got cushy high paying jobs based on seniority alone. Many of them held outdated, useless jobs that the company was contractually obligated to keep for them. Union Stewards were the biggest scam artists in the plant - doing no work at all except rigging the rules for friends and relatives. New hires were sacrificed with lowered wages, less protection, harder work for the sole reason of keeping the lifers in soft secure jobs. I paid my dues for twenty years - a complete waste of money.

[johnnie]

87. I'm a non-college educated electrical engineer

In my experience, both sides can be a pain in the ass. I was in a union at 18 and they sucked, and I deal with college heads every day and they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground half the time.

[Spiffarino]

90. I've been a union member, now live in a "right-to-work" state

Like "Clear Skies" means filthy air, like "Terrorist Surveillance" means spying on American citizens,
"Right to Work" means you have the right to be fired for any reason. This is especially true if you engage in pro-union activities.

If you're a cube rat, I would urge you to join the SEIU, CWA or any other union that can represent you. Unions aren't perfect and quite frankly there need to be some changes. Nevertheless, the only way to fight corporatist policies is to organize against them in a big way. The "New" Democrats sure aren't going to do it. All working people - "cube rats" included - must become a force too powerful to ignore.

We are seeing firsthand what the decline of union representation has wrought: a stagnant minimum wage; pensions raided with impunity; lower and lower wages; smaller yet more expensive benefits; and expendable employees.

[survivor999]

96. Could not agree more!

[JVS]

92. You don't think that the cube rats are also working?

The company just hires them to provide a market for button-down shirts and ties?

[survivor999]

93. Stop the class wars, please!

Everybody needs a Union. White and blue collars are not different in that respect. Of course, if somebody makes so much money that they don't need to work after they're 30, then I suppose those people don't need a Union. But anybody who needs to work also needs a Union.

[Blue_Tires]

94. i'm down

and i can only hope to be a college-educated cube rat at this point in time (currently i'm an unemployed college-educated something or other)

[McCamy Taylor]

97. Most Democrats arent like that. Unions are well respected by the party.

Might get an unusual number of people who are not savy about unions from a cross section of people who spend all day posting on line. My family is union where they apply. But, for instance, when I was practicing medicine, that was not allowed. Doctors can't form unions. It would be some kind of anti-trust violation if we got together the way that imsurance companies get together.

Union busting is everywhere. Nurses get hit with laws that say that because they supervise a nurse's aid this makes them management and therefore they can not organize--even though nurses are wage slaves who get exploited.

:dem:

[LearnedHand]

101. Hard to respond to this one without anger

I'm one generation off the dirt farm and first in my family to go to college -- and I went to college totally without support from my family. I grew up having to wear hand-me-down clothing and doing all the other things that go along with being poor poor poor poor. I was a high-school dropout. At 27, I decided that I'd never be able to support myself or anyone else if I DIDN'T get a college education, and I'd never be able to do the work I dreamed of doing all my life without a college education. So I started college and went straight through my Master's degree. I'm not highly paid now, but I love my work.

How DARE you imply that because I went to college instead of to the local, I don't care about Unions or about people who do manual labor. How dare you call me and people like me "elitist assholes" because we chose a path different from yours. Do you also call your Union brother or sister an "elitist asshole" because he or she is in a different Union or chose a different skill from yours?

I think what you're really saying is that you're feeling resentment because the Democratic Party no longer comprises mostly Union members and instead is full of "college-educated cube rats." By extension, then, you seem to be saying that THEREFORE, the Democratic Party no longer connects with people who "have a real job." You're right about one thing: the Democratic Party has lost its ability to connect with blue-collar workers. But you're SO WRONG to imply there's causal a connection between the makeup of the Democratic Party changing over time and its inability to connect with "ordinary folk."

Had you taken Freshman English in college, you would have learned to recognize the logical fallacy in what you posted: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc, it's called (which means, "this before that; therefore this caused that," or something similar).


Post Hoc also manifests itself as a bias towards jumping to conclusions based upon coincidences. Superstition and magical thinking include Post Hoc thinking; for instance, when a sick person is treated by a witch doctor, or a faith healer, and becomes better afterward, superstitious people conclude that the spell or prayer was effective. Since most illnesses will go away on their own eventually, any treatment will seem effective by Post Hoc thinking. This is why it is so important to test proposed remedies carefully, rather than jumping to conclusions based upon anecdotal evidence.

(explanation from http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html)

The person you talked to obviously was a troglodyte, but seriously, it wouldn't have mattered one bit what party he belonged to. He'd still have been a troglodyte. And so what you said in your OP differed from that person's attitude how?

How about you lay off the generalizing about college-educated people. I grew up with guns, I fish every moment I can get out on the stream, and I work blisters on my hands doing all the remodeling I can on my own home because I can't always pay for a craftsperson to do the more expensive jobs. I'm a huge supporter of Unions and what they have done for American labor, and I mourn the loss of organized labor's power to stop the march of corporate facism.

Oh, and I got my college education to pull myself up out of abject poverty and to realize a life-long dream, NOT to imply that other people are somehow less-than or otherwise unworthy. In fact, my college education had absolutely nothing to do with anyone else at all.

[Lindacooks]

102. Unions saved this country, and unless they are brought back

with resounding strength, we are going to turn into a third world country.

I have two college degrees and I think unions are necessary to freedom.

[beam me up scottie]

103. Hey, people, lay off, Bluzmann57 apologized in a new thread.

I don't have a dog in this fight but maybe we can let it go?

Here's the link to his apology thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2514029

[notadmblnd]

106. MY husband was a Union Man and I'd have to say....

that there were times when I thought he paid his dues for absolutely nothing. For a long time I didn't understand just what benefit it was he was paying for. It never had a thing to do with my education though. (Just enrolled in college this past spring). Over time though, I realized what good a union was and to tell you honestly, I think at this point, Union organizing is a field that I think I'd like to get involved with. Problem is, I don't know how.

[RebelOne]

107. I am a non-college educated cube rat.

And yes, I am an anti-meat-eating PETA type.

[LWolf]

108. I do.

Of course, I'm the first person on either side of my family to earn a college degree. So far, unless you count the AA my mom got after I graduated from high school, and the AA my oldest son got when he graduated from high school, both 2 year degrees at community colleges, I'm the only one.

It took me 16 years of going to school part-time and raising kids to get my degree. During that time, I cleaned peoples houses and worked as a waitress to keep a roof over my head.

I like animals better than too many people, I'm not a big sports fan, and dislike guns enough that, even though I should have one in the area that I live in, I don't. I think every last person on the earth should not only know how to read, but want to read. Want to make reading a big facet of how they inform and entertain themselves. I like correct grammar and spelling, and I like the elegant use of words.

I also drive a pickup, dislike pretension, and fully support unions. I could care less about elegant decor, dress, or other surface decorations. :shrug:

There is an interesting book about people like me:

Blue Collar Roots, White Collar Dreams

It's about the class division those blue collar people face when they manage to get through college. About the limbo between the blue collar and white collar worlds, and what it's like to live in that limbo, not fully belonging to either.

[BlueIris]

109. College educated. No cube is available to me (or a union, either).

But I'd give my right arm to be in one. GO, UNION!!!

[Connie_Corleone]

110. Maybe you need to direct your anger towards the specific

people who pissed you off, instead of pissing off people like me who happen to be college educated cube rats who share your views on unions.

I didn't come from a privileged background. I'm the only one in my family who graduated from college.

As far as you helping me make my salary, I work hard for my salary thank you very much. And yes, I need my job just like you do. You might want to save that crap for the bosses who makes millions off our work.

And I like to eat meat.

Anymore generalizations you want to make today?

[NotGivingUp]

111. blue collar workers were losing jobs long before college grads...

sad to say the problem wasn't getting the attention it deserved until it reached them. people need to get over themselves for having gone to college. doesn't make anyone 'better' than anyone else. we've been brainwashed to have this attitude by the corporations because it works for them.

[cmd]

112. Colleg educated former union president here

I walked the walk and talked the talk for more than 30 years. There is a pickup in the driveway and guns in the basement. I'm pro-choice and will celebrate the day that gays get full human rights. I don't like meat, but that comes from years of childhood in a union household where meat was a luxury item. Union people come in all sizes, shapes, colors and levels of intelligence.

[Samurai_Writer]

114. My grandfather founded the first union in St. Louis

And union jobs paid for my dad to be the first in his family to go to college. He worked union jobs off and on throughout his life, even with a college education. I have nothing but the utmost respect for blue collar workers, union and non-union. I wish all workers could be unionized.

College educations are becoming less and less valuable in today's economy. Trades are the way to go. They cannot be outsourced. They can be insourced, but there is not as much of risk of that, as we 'educated types' getting our high-tech jobs outsourced to India.

[lonestarnot]

115. That snob wasn't a liberal or left. She is one of the freeps in foxes

guarding the hen house, or she needs to spend more time in school, because she didn't learn much while there.

[Ms. Clio]

116. actually, it is in COLLEGE where most people will learn the history and value of unions

It's not something most will hear from the high school coach who also teaches U.S. history.

[Carni]

117. I sat in a cube for years and hated it -- it is WORK

I guess to some people... working in an office setting at a job which doesn't involve any physical labor would seem like a breeze...

IMO that depends on the person's personality and their perspective.

I personally found the boring factor and the politics in the *cube rat* cycle
I spent a lot of my time in (big corporation and one of the worst IMO) so excrutiatingly mindnumbingly tedious, boring and painful that I felt as though I was in hell most days for 15 years.

Granted I was not out changing the world, or solving world health issues, or making 6 figures or even doing a job that I enjoyed (that would have certainly eased my pain considerably)I like many *cube rats* was serving a function that to me didn't really seem rewarding or interesting but the pay was good and at the time it seemed like a perk to have a title and be able to call myself a professional.

I would venture to say that 75% of my coworkers probably all felt the same way about our jobs--most people were there by happen stance it was not their life's dream to work there.

Guess my point is the grass is always greener on the other side--

I have no apptitude for construction, or plumbing or HVAC work and I am afraid of electricity but I am here to tell you if I had the opportunity to be trained to do something physical such as the aforementioned -- where I could drive around and perform different jobs and deal with different people vs working in a cube...
I would not choose the cube.

I have run into jerks such as the ones you are referring to in the OP,
but they exist in both parties and a large portion of them are just spouting BS to make themselves look important. Some of the most obnoxious in your face elitist snobs that I have encountered have also turned out to be big fat liars about their level of education and compensation.

Truly educated people (whether they have attended college or not) do not need to validate their egos by putting other people down on a constant basis and I usually find those that toot their own horns all the time are typically full of crap.

Unions are essential IMO and keep in mind that many white collar professionals don't even have the opportunity to join one--that in and of itself is a disadvantage, they can be canned at any time for any reason in this climate and they are offered no protections.

I would say cut your cube friends some slack!

[Fierce]

118. I'm a UNION MEMBER who also happens to be

a college educated cube rat. I'm also married to a union carpenter. So your post both pisses me off and I nod in recognition at it at the same time.

[Ishoutandscream2]

119. Former classroom teacher, now school counselor

and union member to boot. What I have had to deal with in the classroom and my "cube" are things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I've worked my ass off at low wages myself. And I second what Fierce just stated above.

[bleedingheart]

120. I am a college educated, union loving Democrat.

My grandfather was one of the men who fought to unionize the mines of Pennsylvania.
My father was a union steelworker.

One of my earliest memories was of going to "picket" with my dad. I thought it was a picnic (mom even packed me a lunch)...

A lot of what I enjoy about my work conditions are due to the Union members who fought for a 40 hour work week, labor rights, healthcare...etc

If anything I think that we need more unions and would join one if it applied to my job (it doesn't)..

So...please do not lump me in with that fellow.

[zanne]

121. I thought that hating the college-educated went out of style...

I think there's a great deal of insecurity among those who hate the college-educated just because they managed to work their way through four years of college. I guess we should all quit school at 16 and lower our expectations so they won't resent us. There were alot of college-kid haters when I was in school in the 70's. I'd work in shoeshops and the mills in the summer and during winter break. People there only talked to me when they absolutely had to. I had to eat lunch alone. I'd hear the snickers behind my back. I've never talked about this before because I thought it was all in the past. I guess it isn't. Now, if a college-educated person tried to rub it in somebody else's face, that would be different. But I've never seen that done. Bluzmann, I think you're feeling insecure. Don't take it out on those who are pro-union and also college educated. You have a huge chip on your shoulder.

[patcox2]

122. I am voting to have my taxes go up by maybe $20,000 a year or so.

Because I believe people who earn as much as I do should shoulder more of the burden. (The Bush tax cuts save me about that much a year and I want them repealed).

I am voting for democratic appointees to the NLRB so that union member's rights will be upheld rather than ignored.

I am voting for universal health care even though I already have health care and it will certainly cost me.

I am voting for public schools even though I send my son to a catholic school and I would save thousands with vouchers.

I am voting for candidates who I hope will protect american jobs even if it means things cost more.

I am voting against my own economic interest across the board because I think the wealth should be spread around a little more equally in this country.

Is that an answer?

[soothsayer]

123. I've been a united mine worker, a teamster, and a USPS union

gal, and I've got college (since then!).

[noonwitch]

124. Well, I'm a college-educated cube rat who is also a union member

UAW 6000.

[Erechtheides]

125. I don't know anyone on the left who is against unions.

I'm one of those college-educated (working on it, anyway) elitist assholes of whom you speak. Worse, I'm going to go into the business of making MORE of them. Teachers have a very strong union, by the way.

I understand your frustration, but I need to tell you that you are working with a set of assumptions every bit as bigoted, harmful, and inaccurate as those that some snobby types may hold about you. Not everyone who's been to college holds the same set of ideas on any one of the topics you list above. Speaking for myself, "against the death penalty" is the only thing from that list that applies completely. I think people should be good to animals, but I also think PETA are a bunch of self-serving, delusional freaks who do a lot more harm than good to their cause.

The idea of a left-wing "cultural elite" is maybe the most dangerous enduring myth of the neo-con revolution. The sneering, self-entitled, anti-union, over-privileged plutocrats are, and always have been, on the right wing. It is a crying shame that they've sold this idea that ultra-rich, well-connected conservatives are populists to so much of the U.S. by cynically exploiting people's religious beliefs, all the while funneling more and more money into their own cronies' pockets. There may be some limousine liberals about, but there are a whole lot more corporate-jet conservatives.

The left needs every hand, every skill, every voice, we can get right now. We need people who speak as many languages and live in as many worlds as possible. Please don't be put off by a vocal, ignorant few who do nothing but prove over and over again that a college degree is no cure for stupid.

We're all just trying to get by without going broke or getting sick or being blown up. We all want the same things.

Peace.

[Moderator]

126. locking

This has become inflammatory and the OP
has apologized.