Please Read This If You Believe You ARE NOT Prejudiced...

[Radio_Lady]

What kind of reaction do you have to women from Saudi Arabia?



At Logan Airport in Boston, many years ago, I saw one of these women. She was covered in black from head to toe, with only her eyes barely showing through two slits. What kind of a culture would dare to put a woman in such a situation and in such demeaning garb?

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/06/18/19n_veil,0.jpg

She walked behind a man, who carried her bags but ignored her completely. I assume it was her husband, but I could have been wrong. I saw her get into the back seat of a limousine, then the man climbed in the front passenger seat, joining another man. The men were actively conversing with each other, while the woman sat silent.



My blood rose up into my cheeks, and I raged inside. This was in the 1970s. I was a dedicated feminist supporting two small children. I had my own daily radio program, two ex-husbands who had decided to seek their lives elsewhere -- and a brand new husband who loved and accepted me.

Yesterday, in the Dallas/Ft. Worth airport, there was another Arab couple. The dark-skinned man was in regular pants and a shirt, with a small, square, white hat on his head. The couple was wheeling two toddlers, a boy and a girl, in a double stroller. And there she was -- another "black ghost" in black everywhere, with only those soulful eyes. This must be their mother, and I could only think about her children. I wanted to scoop them up and take them away. Maybe the boy will escape this fate, but the girl? She will be indoctrinated that everything about her, her hair, her face, her midriff, her navel, her legs, her arms, as well as her genitals -- would have to be covered FOREVER, and never shown again except for her enraptured husband.

How many generations will come and go before this custom is accepted for what it is -- the perfect denigration of women of another religion and ethnicity?

I want to believe I am not racist and I hope I do not look down on any other religion. But the image of last evening is still burning in my mind.

Your comments would be appreciated.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[Ellis Wyatt]

1. your point?

are you saying that you are predjudiced against their religion? They should be able freely practice their religion, raise their children however they way, and dress however they want without strangers telling them (or even thinking) "the way you live your life is wrong and I feel your children should be rescued from you"

[Radio_Lady]

11. Welcome to the DU, Ellis Wyatt! The gut feeling of seeing women in

subservient and demeaning situations gives me a great deal of anguish.



You are male? You are from New York? How would you feel if some woman in authority told you to cover up your WHOLE BODY in black and keep it that way?

Perhaps you're not prejudiced, but you also don't seem particularly sensitive to another human's honest reactions.

In peace,

Radio_Lady in Oregon

[focusfan]

245. Didn`t the puritans in america treat women the same way?

[Matariki]

28. sure and it descriminating against gays is part of some people's religions too

you okay with THAT? or is it just women?

[Radio_Lady]

31. I dislike any kind of prejudice. I have no problem with gays and lesbians, because

I believe we are born with our sexual proclivities.

However, I don't believe we are born with our religious beliefs.

Thank you for posting.

[Matariki]

50. You could be born into a family or country where religious belief is forced on you

It seems pretty much a no-brainer that FUNDAMENTALIST Islam is sexist. Same for Fundamentalist Christianity for that matter. Childhood indoctrination and cultural norms become internalized and you will find many women in fundamentalist religions advocating the same sexist tenets as the men. That doesn't make it right. It takes away opportunity for their female children. And I DO think it's a human rights issue. If a class of people weren't afforded basic rights in a country - say for instance if blacks weren't allowed to drive in South Africa or something - there would be sanctions and outcry. But when it's women, people suddenly become apologists, saying it's a cultural or religious freedom issue. I call bullshit.

And btw, it is because of religion that gays are discriminated against and unable to marry in america. Many laws come from the puritan foundations of this country, or 'biblical law' - like 'sodomy' laws for instance.

[meow2u3]

366. Fundamentalism PERIOD is sexist

No matter what the belief is, fundies will overreact in a sexist way and oppress women (except for fundamentalist feminists, who try to oppress men).

[Radio_Lady]

390. "Fundamentalist feminists"? I've never heard of that before.

Just who would be in that category, for argument's sake?

[Irreverend IX]

53. You know what?

The way they live their lives _is_ wrong. Their culture needs to be subverted by liberal, foreign influences and eroded away until nothing remains of it. Do you think it's OK for women to be made to follow their male "keepers" like animals on a leash? Do you think female genital mutilation and child castration (as performed in India) is OK? What about the gang-rape legal penalties applied in Pakistan? Some cultures are nothing more than barbaric anachronisms that must be wiped from the human consciousness as quickly as possible.

[Radio_Lady]

57. Clearly hit a nerve with Nabeshin...

I don't have the time left or the energy to fight these battles. At age 67, I've done all I can for five children and ten grandchildren.

But I admire your fervor! Stay tuned...

[JuniperLea]

64. We should all be as holy as wise as you

:sarcasm:

No one human being or culture should be allowed to tell another how to live their lives. One man's ceiling is another man's floor...

I bet you thought those dirty savages, the American Indians and/or the Native Africans, needed to put more clothes on and quit their sexual practices too!

How fortunate you are to be so wise that you feel you have the power to dictate how others should live. There's this guy who lives in a great big white house on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC who feels the same way you do.


:eyes:

[Ron Green]

96. Actually, some shopkeepers in the South in 1964 were told how they could

and couldn't operate their businesses in certain ways, and our country, although still struggling with this, is better for it. I think there are certain cases in which hurtful practices, although part of a long tradition, must be replaced with less-hurtful ones.

[JuniperLea]

100. That is different... it is change within ones own culture

I'm talking about forcing other cultures to make changes based on feelings born in a different culture.

[Matariki]

124. So we're not allowed to care about human right's issues in other countries?

That's news to me. probably news to a lot of people on this board. probably news to Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other human rights organizations.

[JuniperLea]

270. You don't get it... not even close... you fail to see your own folly

You cannot label something in another culture a human rights issue until you are completely versed and in total understanding of said culture. Clearly that is not the case.

[Matariki]

280. Oh that's utter bullshit

You don't have to live in a culture to see that one group of individuals are not afforded the same rights as another group of individuals. I suspect you're just a misogynist.

[JuniperLea]

285. That is laughable since not only am I a woman

But I come from a very long line of very strong women... starting with Mary Chilton who rode the Mayflower over here... to my Great-Grandmother who was the first telephone operator in Omaha, Nebraska... long before it was cool for women to have careers.

You are grasping for straws and you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Some cultures may look at us and think our women are being tortured by those high heeled shoes, pancake makeup, false eyelashes, fake boobs and tight clothing! We are forced to do all that in order to feel accepted. Bullshit yourself.

Get a grip.

[Name removed]

286. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Matariki]

291. Can you post without being rude?

you toss around insults and ignore the point. you might want to look to see where your own head is at.

are you really incapable of noticing oppression just because it's outside what you consider your own culture? maybe you're not well read? or just not very bright. at any rate you're on my ignore list.

[JuniperLea]

294. You suspected me of misogyny and you have the nerve to say I'm being rude?

I'd pit my IQ against yours any day of the week... you just don't get it. Try live and let live. Don't you think some of those women cherish their history? Cherish their roles in their culture? Don't you see how offensive you are to those who choose that life?

Get a freaking grip...

[Howardx]

287. thats Miss Ogony to you

n/t

[JuniperLea]

288. ROFLMFAO!!!

You rule:)

[progressivebydesign]

290. Oh.. so you're in support of gang rapes in Pakistan?

Or is that genital mutilation that you're good with? Just wondering, because you seem completely incapable of understanding that just because things are done a certain way in a culture, that it is a just thing. It is not.

The original poster was having a hard time seeing a woman treated so subserviently, like a non-entity. What's the problem with that?

[JuniperLea]

296. Don't put words in my mouth

I never said any such thing. That is ignorant. We're talking about veils! Not mutilation!!!

Some people are proud of who they are even though you don't think they should be.

Do you think we should save today's youth from themselves and outlaw tattoos and body piercing? That is mutilation, and a lot of the time it is very painful!

[Lurking Dem]

315. Have you ever protested whaling?

[JuniperLea]

323. What does whaling have to do with women's clothing? n/t

[Lurking Dem]

332. You said

You cannot label something in another culture a human rights issue until you are completely versed and in total understanding of said culture.

I addressed the issue here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2489835&mesg_id=2494345

and no one can give me a reasonable explanation. Or, even, any explanation.

[JuniperLea]

338. READ THE OP!!!

We are talking about clothing here. We are not talking about everything about any one culture. Not all things in every culture are good things, and not all are bad. We need to learn to live and let live and accept other peoples form of dress. Their manner of dress does not kill whales!!! The whales of the Earth belong to no one and to everyone. That is a completely different subject.

[riderinthestorm]

348. The status of women should concern everyone, just like the whales

It is all of the same subject. Whale status under a different culture, women's status under a different culture.... I don't see a whole hell of a lot of difference.

That form of dress means the women are chattel, it means they can be stoned for their "sins", it means they can be raped for their "sins", it means they can't vote or drive or hold a job that might require them to work with men.

IMHO you need to learn that "live and let live" would mean that FGM shouldn't ever be challenged since it's "cultural", or that whale hunting is just fine since it's "cultural".

The wearing of a veil means much more than just a piece of clothing.

[JuniperLea]

358. From your perspective, yes I can see what you are saying

You cannot just go in and start fucking around with another culture without causing a domino effect you had no intention of causing.

That is why I brought up the Christian missionaries who saw fit to clothe the naked natives and force Christianity upon them. They thought it was a noble cause, when in reality, it killed a culture that should have been left well enough alone.

You cannot just barge in on another people's way of life without first learning everything there is to know about those people. Period. It causes disaster.

The wearing of a veil is not the same for all women who wear a veil. To assume that is just plain wrong. To say that I'm for female genital mutilation because I see culture differently than you do is disgusting and narrow minded.

[Irreverend IX]

165. So all those foreign Bush protesters should just shut up, right? nt

[JuniperLea]

269. I don't know where you get that from all I've said

on this thread or anywhere on DU. That's absurd.

I believe all people of all nations should have free speech. I fail to see what that has to do with the prices of apples in April.

[immoderate]

326. Does the woman in the veil have free speech?

Do you think she should have it? I'm wondering how you know where to draw the line.

--IMM

[JuniperLea]

341. The line is very clear!!!

We are talking about CLOTHING IN THIS THREAD!!! If you want to talk about free speech, torture or anything else, start another thread!

[riderinthestorm]

349. The veil means that women in that culture don't have free speech

and they can be tortured (raped for their "sins", or stoned for their "sins" etc.)

The clothing means that women in those cultures are chattel, second status, less than equal...

If you DON'T want to talk about everything else that this piece of clothing means, then you aren't really participating in the OP's topic.

[JuniperLea]

359. Bullshit

You are making broad stroke assumptions. Not all women feel forced to wear a veil. Some see it as beautiful way to pay homage to their race, religion and culture. You cannot say "all" women who wear veils are any of the things you mention. To say it is completely wrong is to belittle the feelings and the rights of many women who choose to participate in that particular dress code.

There are many veiled women here in the US. They cannot be killed, tortured or any of those things if they choose to stop wearing the veils.

Do yourself a favor and go to one of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of shops here in the US where such things are sold and ask some questions. You might learn something.

Not all veils are bad. Not all veiled women are chattel. That is just ignorant.

[smirkymonkey]

335. You are taking a cultural relativist position, and in essence saying

that an individual's beliefs and practices need to interpreted in terms of that persons particular culture and that cultural outsiders haven't any right to interfere or judged based upon that notion.

Therefore, it is hypocritical to invoke cultural relativism when it comes to one culture and not another. If you say that non-veil mandating cultures should back off when it comes to veil-mandating cultures, then as a matter of logical consistency you should take the same postion when it comes to whaling cultures, child slavery cultures, animal abusing cultures, cultures that practice aparthied, etc., etc.

If we should "live and live" when it comes to the veil (which many of us see as a human rights issue, however culturally ingrained - btw, do some research and you will find there are just as many women within the culture who despise the oppressive veil as those who claim to like it) then you should adopt the same attitude when it comes to any other "cultural practice" that you may find abhorrent.

[JuniperLea]

339. Bullshit strawman arguments! We are talking about clothing here!

And you want to throw in everything else about a culture! Bullshit!

I can see the difference between wearing a freaking veil and torturing a child, fcol! And the two do not belong in one argument. We are talking clothing here.

Yes, I do understand that there are some women you are pro-veil and some who are anti-veil. That is their business. I am not going to take sides in what amounts to a private issue within another culture. That is for those women to work out in their own minds and in their own culture and in their own countries. I am certainly NOT going to help get rid of a practice that some women hold dear just because others don't like it! Remember, we are talking about clothing here. My great-grandmother wore a corset, a bustle and button top shoes. I'm not. But if someone wants to forbid me from wearing those things, they can kiss my ass.

[smirkymonkey]

346. You know, I don't even think you know what a 'strawman' is,

other than a term you like to throw into the conversation whenever someone points out the gaping holes in your reasoning.

I don't know how you could have spent so much time on this thread and STILL not get that we aren't talking about fashion here. You are the one who is setting up the strawman in that the OP is talking about cultural practices that demean and dehumanize women, whereas you are taking her position and twisting into some kind of fashion mandate and then arguing against that.

My argument simply pointed out the fact that your argument ( "I'm talking about forcing other cultures to make changes based on feelings born in a different culture." ) is the very definition of cultural relativism. So it's not about comparing "fashion" to "child abuse" as you seem to think, it's about questioning the validity of the "cultural relativism" argument when you seem to think that it is ok in some cases and not in others.

It doesn't matter what the cultural practice is, if it is wrong to "force other culture to make changes based on feelings born in a different culture" then it applies across the board. Otherwise you simply have to admit that your argument is based upon your own personal feelings about this particular issue and not logic.

[JuniperLea]

347. Read the OP

It started with seeing women dressed a certain way in an American airport... your attempt to use my logic that I based on a fashion statement to include other things is a strawman. Look it up. You were the one to combine other cultural aspects, now you are saying it's not about that.

I won't argue in your ever-changing circles. You can't seem to stick to a subject, so forget it.

[riderinthestorm]

350. The OP was specifically talking about how the garb denigrates women

You re-read it, please.

Radio Lady was specifically talking about the indoctrination and negative acculturation vs. her horror at the obvious subjugation of women that accompanies that kind of clothing.

You are the one trying to separate the cultural aspects of that clothing and simply make it a matter of "choice" or "our" lack of understanding (ah yes, the terrible amorphous "west" and our utter inability to be receptive to multiculturalism ie. bigotry)

[JuniperLea]

360. She was specifically asking if she were a bigot

to which I say... yes. She was making a lot of assumptions. As are you. As do most peoples who think they know better and are out to change the cultures of others to make things better for them. A noble cause, some would say. It was considered a noble cause to clothe American Indians and force them to loose their pagan, blasphemous religion and force them into Christianity. We have not learned much since then. We cannot force religion, attire, culture, or anything else on others. The war in Iraq is a perfect example of forcing something upon a culture that is not ready for such drastic change. The horrors of rising drug abuse and suicide in Russia after they were "set free" is another. And look closely at India now that they have been thrust into a very western civilization via all the money that is being pumped into that country too quickly. We don't do anyone a favor by rushing in and making decisions for them.

[Irreverend IX]

375. Now you say "we're talking about clothing..."

But earlier in this thread you said:

"You cannot label something in another culture a human rights issue until you are completely versed and in total understanding of said culture."

So which is it? Per the statement above, female genital mutilation, wife-burning, camel jockey child slavery and many other vile practices can't be criticized because the critics are not "completely versed in said culture." And I never said that veils should be forbidden. The culture that promotes such things should be subverted and eroded away by Western culture, because that is the only approach that works. Attacking a culture directly only encourages its adherents to cling to it.

[orleans]

238. and how much do people have to suffer before you're willing to speak out?

start with this paragraph:
"Concern for human rights in Saudi Arabia has ranked extremely low on the agenda of the U.S., although Washington has long been well aware that the country remains a veritable wasteland when it comes to respect for the fundamental human rights of its 22 million residents, including some six to seven million foreign workers and their families. Saudi Arabia's diversity, in terms of geographic regions and various schools of Islamic law, is not represented in the governing structure of the country. "

http://hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/saudi/


you said, in a previous post:

"I bet you thought those dirty savages, the American Indians and/or the Native Africans, needed to put more clothes on and quit their sexual practices too!

"How fortunate you are to be so wise that you feel you have the power to dictate how others should live. There's this guy who lives in a great big white house on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC who feels the same way you do."

"dirty savages"? who the hell was even thinking of such a thing? did i miss something in this thread for you to post that? amnesty international and human rights watch does a bit more than merely go about meddling in other cultures.

and by the way--the guy in the white house that you mentioned could give a rats ass about human suffering, degradation and abuse of women, gays, other minorities or anyone for that matter.

(also, i have a MAJOR problem with the use of the word "savages". i understand you were trying to make a point, but the point could have been made without using this slur. "While specific words are not automatically forbidden, members should avoid using racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted terminology"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html )

[JuniperLea]

268. You clearly cannot see the sarcasm, nor do you get the point

Obviously I do not think of any people as savages! Get a grip!

You are measuring the culture of another based on what you know about your own culture. You totally miss the point. We were not talking of a specific country, but of a religious belief. Your bringing Saudi Arabia and their treatment of women into this conversation is a straw man.

[orleans]

334. trust me. i got your point. that's why i posted back to you to begin with

maybe you could try being sarcastic without throwing racial slurs into the mix. eh? (or maybe when it comes to using sarcasm you should "get a grip" as you apparently enjoy telling others to do)

read my post again. according to you Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International must be "measuring the culture of another based on what
(they) know about (their) own culture" (which would mean that torture is subjective, degradation is subjective because some women think it's wonderful to be treated like second class citizens/chattel/property)

it's interesting you think me bringing up saudi arabia is a straw man--i would think the straw man here is religion

so you never answered my question:
HOW MUCH DO PEOPLE HAVE TO SUFFER BEFORE YOU'RE WILLING TO SPEAK OUT?

[JuniperLea]

337. No, you don't get it

Read the OP again, then read my post again. We are talking about clothing here. We are not talking about mutilation, pain, or torture. We are talking about clothing and the chosen clothing of certain cultures. You show me one person who is suffering because of their clothing and I'll answer your misplaced question.

What I'm saying is that many here, clearly including you, feel you are above people's rights and you want to force them to wear clothing other than that type deemed appropriate by the wearer... hence my relating it to Christian missionaries who deemed it their business to "cover" American Indians and Native Africans. Those Christians saw it as their duty to save these peoples from themselves, cover their beautiful bodies with what those Native peoples felt were hideous clothing, and discarding the loincloths and partial, sometimes full, nudity that those cultures felt appropriate. THAT is bullshit. THAT is what YOU are trying to do here and I say you are ludicrous!!! You are holding your own mindset above another, effectively showing that you are prejudiced and bigoted!!! Those Native peoples should have been left alone. Their souls and their choice in clothing were perfectly safe and sound and no one had the right to force change upon them. I have more right to talk about such things than most! My people met my people at Plymouth Rock and I'll be damned if anyone is going to say I've used racial slurs against my own people! That is just plain ignorant and absurd.

You may feel some women are being treated a certain way due to the manner of their dress. Unless you are clairvoyant or an empath, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. It takes years and years of study to understand other cultures. My eldest son has been studying Japanese and the Japanese culture for over eight years now and with all the stellar grades, the more he learns, the more he realizes that he doesn't know near enough. Tell me, how many years and what fine grades have you received? Hmmm?

Are you going to forbid the women in my area from wearing saris too? Should they feel lesser beings because their culture dictates they should all dress alike? Or are saris ok because you think they are cute? Are you going to forbid the teenagers in my neighborhood to stop tattooing and body piercing? Now THAT is painful mutilation!!! Yet it is an acceptable behavior in OUR culture. I'm sure there are many cultures in the world that would not only eschew the practice, but look upon those who partake in disgust.

You really do need to get a grip, and you absolutely should take a course in reading with understanding. Then perhaps you should take a course in liberalism and learn to live and let live. If people are being tortured by clothing, you let me know, mmmkay?

Egad.

[I Have A Dream]

354. However, the post to which you responded was the following...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2489835&mesg_id=2490359

You say that your response was in reference to dress. This post was discussing gang rape, female genital mutilation, and forced child castration. Your response to this post was the following:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2489835&mesg_id=2490447

Now you're saying that it was about clothing. That was not what the post to which you responded was discussing.

[JuniperLea]

357. I was redirecting to the OP

The OP was about clothing. I was objecting to all the other rubbish being thrown into the conversation about clothing. I was also objecting to people who think it is their call to disrupt another culture with regard to clothing.

[orleans]

362. dear "egad"

oh, silly me. i didn't realize the conversation had to do with only the way people dressed.

in that case: i love black!

black clothes are simply wonderful (and so slimming!)

i thought we were talking about what the clothing REPRESENTED!


and no, egad, i wouldn't try to stop the teens in YOUR neighborhood from getting a tat.

however i did report the father of my daughter's best friend when his daughter informed me that he had been raping her since she was six years old. she also went on to explain to me that it was part of their "culture" (her parents are not from this country). and her uncle had been having sex with her as well.

the way you sounded--i got the impression you would have not gotten involved because, after all, who the hell are you to interfere with other people's cultural mores. "father raping daughter for years? well, that's their business, not mine. besides, that's what they DO. if it bothered the little girl so much she would have spoken up and reported it herself." (that's the impression i got from you)

but shit! we're only talking about the CLOTHES? THE APPEARANCE? nothing more important? i didn't know. otherwise, i wouldn't have bothered reading and posting on this thread at all.

[JuniperLea]

373. You should read more, assume less...

You just don't get it. Stop trying. Stop trying to be witty too. Doesn't work.

All you need to know is that not all veils are a symbol of bad things happening to women and not all women want your help and not all little old ladies standing on a street corner want help crossing the street. Just like the American Indians and the Native Africans would have been far better off without the well-meaning help of others. Not one person posting on this thread has enough information to make a judgment, that's all I'm saying. Interjecting one's own values or beliefs into another's culture without lengthy and thorough research is foolhardy at best, disastrous in a worse-case scenario. If you want to rush in and make a fool of yourself and a quagmire of another's life, go for it. I can only hope there is a more intelligent and well read person waiting to give your actions the smack-down. Just like your assumption about what I would or would not do in the case of a child being raped, the whole idea of interfering without pure and absolute knowledge is absurd.

Oh, and a little hint... Merriam Webster is your friend.

egad

Main Entry: egad
Pronunciation: i-'gad
Variant(s): or egads /-'gadz/
Function: interjection
Etymology: probably euphemism for oh God -- used as a mild oath

What about tattoos and body piercings in YOUR neighborhood? If you could only get past your own angst... jeez...

[orleans]

374. blablabla get over yourself.

you're the first person i'm blocking. byebye egad!

[JuniperLea]

378. Considering your lack of comprehension, I'm honored!

99% of those who put me on ignore have been tombstoned within a month's time.

TTFN!

[T Town Jake]

367. "That is different..." Ummm, no, it 'taint: It's PRECISELY...

...the same thing. It gets tiresome to hear this chatter about how one cannot offer criticism about practices that repress people in general and women in particular because they supposedly belong to "different cultures."

Didn't you read the OP? She saw a woman so veiled in BOSTON LOGAN AIRPORT, U.S. OF A. And another one in Dallas, Texas.

"I'm talking about forcing other cultures to make changes based on feelings born in a different culture"

Ummm, per the poster who first challenged you on this: Bull Connor, of fire-hoses and attack dogs fame, would've given you a big "AMEN, BROTHER!" in about 1963. He, and his Southern compatriots, felt that they belonged to a "different culture," one that was unique and should be left alone without all that meddling Yankee interference. He was wrong: it was right to force his culture to change. And if you are going to live in the Western World, you should be forced to give women the same rights as their husbands and fathers, period.

[JuniperLea]

379. GWB felt the same way when he rushed into Iraq

All I'm saying is that there needs to be a lot more research before people go spouting off. And even more research before people go putting their noses where they don't belong.

Not all Triggs are Garbs...

[pitohui]

219. i like this post

thank you, ron, as a southerner, it is something i have often thought but perhaps have not well expressed

hurting other people is wrong

the same folks who would shout and holler at an animal sacrifice don't care if a woman is sacrificed to ancient cultural practice? *sigh*

[spoony]

84. Spreading freedom and democracy eh?

[Thickasabrick]

139. What about Jewish guys who wear that hat? Does that offend

anyone? Is he hiding his head in shame? Scared about a bald spot? What's up with that? I think we need to outlaw those little hats.

It's my understanding the Koran doesn't dictate that mode of dress. It's just some people's customs and beliefs. I think people need to chill about stuff they don't know anything about and let people do what they want. If people are uncomfortable looking at a woman all covered up - that is a personal problem for the viewer - not the covered up person.

Just my two cents.

[Matariki]

149. only if he gets beaten or raped for not wearing it.

[Thickasabrick]

156. There are many Muslim women who wear it because they WANT

to. Just because some are forced to wear them shouldn't make it wrong for the ones who are doing it out of choice.

[Irreverend IX]

164. "It's my understanding the Koran doesn't dictate that mode of dress."

No, it doesn't. Religion is not the true issue--backwards culture is the issue. And trying to legislate those customs away won't work. Turkey tried to do it, but now religious fundamentalism is boiling up from beneath the surface of their society. The effort has to be cultural. Egalitarian cultures must wash away insular cultures in which women are seen as chattel and other abuses are allowed. One of the cultures that most direly needs to be eliminated is the self-destructive consumer culture of the US. And for those posters who balk at any critique of the burqa-wearers, how do you justify criticizing George W. Bush? Or the Rapture Readies? Or the Stepford suburbanites? The cultures those people come from are as different from those of many posters here as the Arabs' culture is. I feel more at ease walking down the street in Tokyo or pushing through Third World crowds than I do in a white-flight subdivision. You can't change the world without changing people's minds.

[Thickasabrick]

196. Interesting post. Looking at it from a strictly cultural viewpoint how

many of these women cover themselves because they want to please their husbands? Is that so wrong? Especially in light of millions of women each year who subject themselves to unnecessary surgery for boob jobs to please men? Which culture is more fucked up?

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Thickasabrick]

204. Uh....she looks like she exercises alot.

[Radio_Lady]

206. So THAT'S it!!! I'm going right to the gym -----

Maybe I can change that sow's ear back into a silk purse...

[Irreverend IX]

230. Deleted?

C'mon, mods, DU is supposed to be fun.

[Name removed]

231. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pitohui]

220. my neighbor was beaten and her arm broken

they cover up to please their husbands? really? not the women i've met, true, the women i've met have been the intelligent ones with soul and spirit

i guess i don't care about the stupid women who will do whatever they're told and i see you feel the same

the difference is, not having met middle eastern women in your formative years, you just assume they are all stupid animals happy to do as they are instructed

they aren't

they are real, they have feelings

and plenty of them are not covering out of choice but because they have no choice

else i would not know so many who have fled asia

to assume they are all wearing that miserable crap out of "choice" is fairly rude if you ask me, i'm sorry

[Thickasabrick]

274. I never assumed all wear it out of choice. Your assumption that

I assumed that is "fairly rude". Where in the fuck did you get that they are all stupid animals?

[Canuckistanian]

237. That's a narrow view of purdah

And how many Arab men would do such restrictive things just to please their women?

And to compare this with plastic surgery is just absurd. Since when does one shallow and vain practice validate another?

[Thickasabrick]

273. You missed my point. My point was they are both fucked up.

[JuniperLea]

293. We should all wear the same thing!

How about brown shirts and pants?? \


Black suits?



I kind of like the Whirling Dervish outfits.


<>







It is really sick that some people just can't live and let live. They don't realize how offensive they are to people who actually CHOOSE to wear those veils, etc.

FCOL!!!

[smirkymonkey]

340. You are the one who doesn't get it.

It's not about clothes. It's not about MAKING them wear what we want them to wear. It's about quetioning a practice that dehumnaizes women and keeps them in a powerless and subserviant postion. It's about the the violence they will invite if they CHOSE not to wear the niqab, which therefore clearly indicates that they really don't have much of a "Choice" after all.

I am not going to reiterate what I have said in my other posts, because you seem incapable of getting it. For someone with such a "superior IQ" to make statements with such gaping logical holes, makes me think that you have some kind of personal issue with this matter; which would account for the flaws in your reasoning.

[JuniperLea]

342. Your assumptions are crude

This is about clothing. It's about choice in clothing. I live in a very racially diverse neighborhood. About half a mile from my home is a neighborhood called "Little India" where you can buy saris and other veiled, middle eastern attire. Clearly 90% of the women who live in that area wear the traditional attire. Some don't. No one is forcing them.

Clothing is not the issue in the torture you cite. Torture is the issue.

There is another perspective to those "gaping logical holes" you speak of... you are failing to make a connection.

[JuniperLea]

345. Uh huh... edit your post after the response

n/t

[I Have A Dream]

355. That's his decision as to whether he wants to wear it. For many...

Islamic women, they really do not have a choice. If they don't do it, they are beaten or worse. Have you seen the discussion this week about the Muslim cleric in Australia who basically called women who were not dressed like this "uncovered meat" and who could only blame themselves if they were gang raped? This is not choice; this is complete and utter coercion.

If a woman truly chooses to dress this way and society allows her daughters to truly make their own decisions as to how they want to dress, then it's a personal decision that I support because I'm pro-choice. However, it rarely works that way.

[Quantess]

202. I can't tell if you are serious, Nabeshin

but if you are serious, I sort of agree with a couple of your points.
:hide:

[Irreverend IX]

208. Serious as a heart attack. nt

[Jim Sagle]

211. Fuckin' A.

[bigwillq]

94. Hi!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[bigwillq]

95. dupe

please delete

[smirkymonkey]

114. How many times does it have to be said.....

this is not mandated by Islam, the religion, only certain extremist sects. This is cultural and it is based upon a backward, sexist, idiotic premise. Here - read about it for yourself:

http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/women/albani_niqab.htm

[Radio_Lady]

152. Thanks for posting, SmirkyMonkey! Excellent link...

Just for my information, what is this?

Every time Muhammed's name is mentioned, the gif is added. The overstrike says, "May Peace be upon Him."

That's very much like other religions notations of the Highest Being.

[smirkymonkey]

163. There is much debate over the interpretation of religious texts

over the ages and a lot of evidence to prove that men have twisted the "words" of the prophets to suit their own political ambitions and personal prejudices.

BTW, I have the same reaction you do to seeing a woman covered head to toe in black with only the eyes showing; and I would find it offensive to have to communicate with someone who hid their face from me, just as I would be frightened and offended by having to communicate with someone in a ski mask or with a hood over their face.

In this culture, hiding one's face is associated with aggression and dishonesty. I think many of us have a visceral reaction to anyone whose features are completely covered by a piece of cloth, but only some of us will admit it.

[Radio_Lady]

190. You've hit on an important point. I never thought of it that way.

A covered face is like a ski mask or a hood.

Thank you for the post.

[JuniperLea]

325. In that context

I would wear that attire because I'm too damn sexy to be seen by anyone but my immediate family.

What's wrong with that? Maybe it makes those women feel special. Maybe it's a statement... much like my first statement in this post.

[Megahurtz]

131. Oh Yeah?

How do you know women aren't threatened by the men in some way if they don't dress like this?

[JuniperLea]

2. I would have to hear what the women in question had to say

About the situation before I passed judgment. Their's is a very old society and I don't pretend to understand any of it. What we perceive and a put-down could very well be deemed as an honor. I've never heard a word from anyone in that position, so there is nothing to base a thought on.

[Radio_Lady]

13. Of course.

I have spoken to Turkish women in modern dress, and to some of the covered women in the Jewish religion.

I have a daughter who is a conservative Jew -- and a son who is a Mormon.

Certainly I hope I am not prejudiced.

But how do you quell those feelings?

[JuniperLea]

54. I have a cousin who is a Christian missionary in Israel

I've thought about this subject quite a bit.

I wonder if all those missionaries who went to Africa and "put clothes on those naked savages" or those who did the same "for" American Indians really did those peoples a service. I think not.

I wonder if every woman in the world truly wants to be "equal" to her husband, have the right to drive, vote, etc. Just because those things are treasured in our culture is no guarantee they are treasured everywhere.

Did Iraq really and truly want democracy? Did the American Indians and Native Africans really want to put so many clothes on? Not all cultures are alike, nor should they be. We need to respect other cultures and quit trying to change the world and make it look like us. We aren't doing that great a job that we should want the whole world to be like us!

It's called live and let live. I think there is far too little of that in the world. Human beings must find their own happiness, it cannot be forced upon them.

I don't think there are any real answers to your question. But I believe there is great value in asking that question, and for asking many other questions. Maybe if we ask them enough, the answer will come.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XemaSab]

309. I've heard from Muslim girls wearing only the head scarf

and modest, loose clothes that it keeps men from treating them as sex objects.

Some of them definitely have positive feelings about it, but as an outsider, what does it say about the men that they can't control their thoughts enough to deal with a woman who might possibly look attractive?

[MrCoffee]

3. sounds prejudiced to me.

flame me if you must.

[Radio_Lady]

14. I don't flame people, and I didn't act on any of my feelings or thoughts.

My nephew married a woman who attends the Assembly of God services. She was born a Catholic, but found her way into the current church. (She's also a Republican, but I tried very hard not to try to convince her otherwise...)

As much as she tried to convince me, I couldn't accept her views that the Bible was the word of God, written down by men.

I politely had to disagree, but I respect her right to believe whatever she wants.

[distantearlywarning]

4. I share your feelings.

I saw a couple like this at the zoo. It bothered me more than I can say that the woman was covered from head to toe and walking several steps behind her husband.

I do not think I am racist, but rather "culturalist". I don't care about the color of someone's skin. I do care if they demean their spouse. That bothers me a lot. If it had been a white, black, purple, green polka dotted you name it man with his silent shrouded wife trailing behind, it would have bothered me a lot.

In my worldview, some things are just plain wrong. And it doesn't matter if someone's culture demands it. I don't think women should be treated that way. I wouldn't like it if I were treated that way. And that's more important to me than the golden idol of "culture".

Flame away. Call me a racist or a bigot or a false feminist or just an ignorant bitch. Names won't change my opinion. :-)

[Radio_Lady]

19. Beautifully stated. And a new word -- we're "culturalists"!

Thanks for your post.

[Wilber_Stool]

82. I think a more accurate description

would be cultural supremacist.

[distantearlywarning]

108. If you want to say that, ok.

I'm not afraid of names, and maybe I am a cultural supremacist (assuming my own culture supports feminist ideals for women, which is debatable - see my post below re: Paris Hilton). Regardless, I still think forcing women to wear a full length burka is wrong.

[Wilber_Stool]

177. In light of the laws being passed in Europe

forbidding the wearing of bukas and veils, I hardly think that all women are forced to ware their cultural garb. You may see it as being demeaned by a man but she is just as likely to be wearing it to honor her god.

[smirkymonkey]

118. What you call a cultural practice, some of us call a human rights

abuse. Should we just let the mistreatment of human beings go on wherever it occurs because, "Hey, it's just their culture."

It was the "culture" of Nazi Germany to consider Jews, Homosexuals, Liberals et al. inferior human beings who needed to be purged in order to "save" the "Aryan" race. I suppose we should have just let that be too, because who are we to tell them their cultural beliefs are wrong.

[Wilber_Stool]

183. I fail to see how you can compare mass

murder and wars of aggression to simple cultural identity. Had the Germans only deported their lessors and simply repressed their own people, I dought if anything much would have been said.

[distantearlywarning]

192. Simple cultural identity?

Perhaps you haven't heard of the human rights abuses against women in some Islamic countries. It isn't about the veil, just in the same way that it wasn't about the yellow star in Nazi Germany. The veil just represents a multitude of horrors perpetuated against a portion of a population.

And would you have thought it was ok if the Germans only oppressed their own?

[Nikia]

278. But isn't it a human right to cover up just as much as to expose ourselves

I know that veiling has been an enforced dress code in some areas that are associated with women not having other rights, but other cultures subjugate women too. Should we be against dresses and high heels because they have been tools of oppression?

[smirkymonkey]

317. I agree - there are many different things going on here. In a way,

all women are oppressed by cultural expections of how we should present ourselves, and often it revolves around what pleases the men in whatever culture you happen to be a member of.

However, in most parts of the world - if we choose NOT to dress a certain way (in our culture, it would be dressing for comfort instead of wearing sexy or fashionable clothing) we aren't severely punished for chosing to "opt out", although there may be a subtle shift in how we are percieved by others.

The problem I see with the veil or niqab is that it almost entirely erases personhood from the women - there is no room for individual expression and it is much easier to continue to look at "women" as non-persons (on a societal level) because they are all covered head to toe in clothing that completely disguises anything that would give them an individual identity. It's a way of making them "invisible" and therefore without power in that society.

[Lurking Dem]

318. Well said.

"Invisible" is exactly right.

[I Have A Dream]

356. Thank you for this post. I think that you've hit the nail on the head. n/t

[JuniperLea]

79. Perspective is everything

What if the women wear those things because they are so beautiful they would drive men mad if they let themselves be seen? What if women walk behind their husbands because the man couldn't be trusted to control himself because his wife's back-side was so beautiful? What if those women walk around feeling absolutely wonderful about themselves and their attire?

You can't judge other cultures by a yardstick that only measures your own. You can't assume that what you perceive as a put down isn't actually an honor.

[JerseygirlCT]

137. All of those examples insist that *women* subjugate themselves

because *men* can't control themselves. Think about that.

If he would be driven mad, shouldn't that be HIS problem to control, not hers?

No, these cultural imperatives that put women in bondage are just sick. And the result of a twisted culture wherein women are really just chattel.

As I said elsewhere in the thread, I guess if a woman *freely* chooses to be a part of such a system, then it's her choice.

But I don't have to like what underpins it, and I won't disquise it or consider myself somehow prejudiced if I refuse to do so.

[JuniperLea]

267. You're still measuring by our cultures yardstick

It may not be literally that the men cannot control themselves. What if it's a compliment to the women? You can't look at other cultures through the perspective of ours. And I've yet to see anyone on this thread that has enough first-hand information on the subject to pass credible judgment.

[JerseygirlCT]

305. I think some things are wrong by any yardstick

treating women like possessions is wrong. Whatever cultural tradition you want to wrap it in.

Slavery was wrong -- regardless of its cultural history.

My family lived in the Gulf for a few years. So I have seen, up close and personal if you like, how women are treated in that culture. And how they're spoken of (the same men who were perfectly charming b/c they worked for my father could speak of women in a way that would make your blood curdle). I knew how *I* was treated, for the crime of appearing in public with exposed lower arms or blonde hair.

Sorry, however you want to put it, it's wrong.

And as I said, if a woman *chooses* to subject herself to that treatment, that's one thing. And that choice is only to be found in more westernized cultures. There is no choice in Saudi culture, or many of the Gulf states.

[XemaSab]

311. If it was just the clothes it would be one thing,

but the restrictions in what women can and can't do is to me the awful part about strict Islamic dress codes.

Women can't work, can't drive, can't go anywhere alone... it's virtually impossible for me to believe that most women in Saudi really WANT to stay home all the time, and by that I mean STAY HOME ALL THE TIME, unless they are with their husband, father, brother, or another male. It's not about wearing modest but uncomfortable clothing, it's being treated like a slave that I cringe at.

[Marie26]

179. Yeah, right. nt

[progressivebydesign]

295. That's ridiculous. Those cultures treat women like cattle...

They are belongings. They are told that they must cover up because other men may look at them and have sexual thoughts. It's religious fundamentalism (which ALWAYS FAVORS MEN!).

It would be really great if you'd read up on the cultures you are so vehemently defending. You'll find gang rapes of girls and women, genital mutilation, stonings, beatings.

I'm not a culturist.. I'm a HUMANIST.

[JerseygirlCT]

306. "honor" killings...

Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of our lack of understanding, I really don't.

[smirkymonkey]

86. Here's a quote that puts it into perspective....

"When Men are oppressed, it's a tragedy; when Women are oppressed, it's tradition."

If there was a culture that was white and they practiced a religion that said brown people were inferior and needed to walk behind them, and be subserviant and cover themselves from head to toe in order to obliterate their identity and humanity, most of the people here defending "culture" and "religious freedom" would be singing quite a different tune.

For some reason, when those being oppressed are women, it's perfectly A.O.K on DU.

[Coexist]

112. Nice analogy.

Thank you.

[Megahurtz]

138. Ha ha! Perfect. n/t

[nicknameless]

241. That quote deserves attribution.

-- Bernadette Mosala (South African teacher)

[Mad_Dem_X]

261. Sad, but true

You hit the nail right on the head. Unfortunately, many turn a blind eye when women are being victimized and oppressed. I truly do not understand this mindset, especially on a progressive message board!

[progressivebydesign]

297. You've got it right, Smirkymonkey. Perfectly put!

It's apparently easy for people to accept women being mistreated and miminized. And even people here at DU are condoning it. Wonder if the people defending this are good with polygamy, wherein young girls are forced to marry older men.. etc... that's a culture and religion too.

[JuniperLea]

298. When a woman says she doesn't like her culture's ways

Then I'll be upset. You have no idea what is in the minds of those women. Some could very well be happy to wear the traditional clothing. And you are willing to make her feel bad for her choice because you think it's wrong for her to cover up. What is right about that?

[JerseygirlCT]

308. If she makes a choice to wear that clothing, a freely made choice

then that's fine. I don't have to like it, but it's her choice.

If she's compelled to wear that clothing and behave in a submissive way by law or the demands of the dominant culture, that's another thing entirely.

I can't tell you how many smashingly well-dressed women I saw on flights to Saudi Arabia scurrying as we approached, to cover up.

Their *choice* was western clothing. Their compulsion, under law, was to be completely covered.

[JuniperLea]

322. Can you see that your perspective may be an assumption?

Maybe they were enjoying "While in Rome, do as the Roman's do". Were they complaining? Or did you assume their "scurrying" was a complaint? As I child, I remember Catholic women "scurrying" to put a piece of lace on their heads "to cover their glory" before going into the church. They were compelled, yes, but they also took great pride in those little patches of lace... and they wouldn't be caught dead in the grocery store wearing them.

[JerseygirlCT]

327. I think there's something psychological going on that might make

it hard to tell, to be honest.

When you're thoroughly indoctrinated into a tradition that considers you secondary, how free is your choice? It's the indoctrination I dislike, not necessarily the choice.

It's like the weird contortions that must go on with women involved in some radical fundamentalist Christian sects. They glory in their submission to their husbands. There's nothing and no way that I will be convinced there's anything healthy in that -- but they've been completely convinced. As I said, their choice I suppose (although it is hard to tell where choice ends and compulsion begins) but I don't have to like or respect it.

And treating any group of human beings as lesser b/c of their gender or race or ethnic background or sexual orientation is wrong -- across the board, and culture be damned.

[JuniperLea]

344. I agree about Christian women... I was raised in that "culture"

And I agree it is wrong to treat any woman as a lesser being, but it's not my place to tell the Christian women, or the Muslim women that they are wrong to allow it to happen to them.

This conversation reminds me of an old joke about a Boy Scout helping a little old lady across the street... and the little old lady beat the crap out of him with her cane. Just because she was standing on the corner of the street and looking across to the other side is not proof she wanted to cross the street. She didn't. The Boy Scout was forcing her to cross the street.

Perspective is everything.

If any woman were to reach out to me and say, please! Help me! I HATE wearing this and they are forcing me to wear it! I'd help her. Likewise, if a woman were to come to me and say, I love my traditional attire and they are trying to take it away from me... I'd help her keep it.

We all thought it was a wonderful thing when Russian communism fell. We didn't consider that the people of Russia knew nothing else and they were not prepared to change that quickly. The drug and suicide rate rose exponentially because the people could not deal emotionally and intellectually with the abrupt change. There were similar problems when Christians came to America and to Africa and "saved" the naked natives... we need to be very careful. Some things need to be halted immediately, no question. Child slavery, torture, mutilation... you betcha. But a veil? Give me a break. Some like it and some don't. It does not draw blood, mutilate or kill. Don't we have bigger issues to face?

[JerseygirlCT]

361. We do, but in many cases (and more especially

not in the west) the veil isn't just a veil. It's a symptom of a whole cultural outlook toward women that's just wrong, and shouldn't be accepted, any more than slavery, torture, etc. In fact, treatment of women can often devolve into those things.

More than likely, a veiled woman in the US is that way b/c she chooses to be. I don't like the religious underpinnings that tell her that's necessary, but I don't have to like it -- it's not my business.

But I think we must still be very aware of the situation women face under fundamentalist Islamic cultures (along with others, of course). Do you remember the fuss years ago, during the first gulf war, when the Saudis tried to insist that our servicewomen dress to their standards? My local paper ran an editorial that said since that was their tradition, we ought to comply. Like bowing instead of shaking hands in Japan. I heartily disagreed, and wrote to say so. Forcing women into an abaya against their wishes isn't about respecting another culture, it's about negating the value of women as human beings.

[alarimer]

113. I agree with you

Human rights are human rights the world over, culture be damned. Equality of the sexes is paramount in there. Now I disagree that we can force it on other countries but we can certainly lead by example (although I do not believe we currently do, given our own human rights issues: i.e. torture and loss of habeas corpus).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

130. Ditto

Call me a 'culturalist' too. If your culture dictates treating women as second class citizens, restricting their movements, and covering them as though their faces and bodies are shameful then face it, your culture sucks. And bullshit on the argument that it's about 'respecting' women. If that were the case, then men would be equally covered. After all, guys have sexy physical attributes, do they not?

Inequality is inequality. Period. Here in the Western world, we expect women to wear formfitting clothing and shoes that hobble the feet while guys dress comfortably (for the most part with neckties being a possible exception). In some Eastern cultures women are shrouded in mounds of fabric and have their vision obscured by veils.

The patriarchy sucks ass and can kiss my ass!

[Quantess]

5. Great. This subject again?

Anyway, the Middle East can take their burqas and shove it. The western world doesn't need any of that fundie nonsense.

However, this subject seems a tensy trivial, so close to the elections.

[Radio_Lady]

12. Pass us by if it's too trivial -- seeking honest reactions.

Thanks for posting.

I didn't link it to the elections at all, only juxtapositioned because I saw this family last night.

[Quantess]

217. Now I'm all worked up again, thanks to YOU, Radio Lady.

You got us started back up tonight on this sore topic. Just kidding! :hug:

This BS makes me mad. I get high blood pressure, or anxiety, or something, about this particular issue. When I said it was a distraction, I meant (for me)!

[Radio_Lady]

223. I apologize if I've adversely impacted your life today, Quantessd.

Please quiet yourself with slow, rhythmic breathing and some soft music. I'm burning a couple of candles with a lovely fruity smell... I hope your day tomorrow will be better.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Another episode came to mind after posting.

I was swimming in some delightful indoor pool in a hotel in Boston when I had just moved there in 1972. A dark haired, dark eyed man caught my eye, and we struck up a conversation. He was very handsome -- the only person I might compare him with would be Omar Sharif, the Egyptian actor, in his younger days.

I asked this man what country he was from and what he was doing in the United States. He said he was studying at a local college, and he was from Saudi Arabia.

At that time, I must have known at least a little about the Middle Eastern women who covered themselves, since I had a minor in World Religions in college. But I don't recall ever seeing them.

"Do you go out on dates with American women?" I inquired.

"Absolutely. I date often now that I'm living here. American women are delightful and happy and sexy and very tender," he demured.

"But, would you marry one?" I parried.

"No, my wife will be a Saudi Arabian woman, and she will be completely covered and completely mine, from head to toe, from now until forever."

I still remember his sweet and suggestive response. I wonder where that man is today, and whether his life worked out as he had planned.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[Quantess]

236. No , he wouldn't marry an American woman

because he just wants to have sex with them.

[Radio_Lady]

282. We didn't talk about sex at all. It was a very innocent discussion

and I would not agree with your supposition.

[Warpy]

6. They're uncovered in the home and with extended families

It's only the males they're unrelated to by blood or marriage that they feel they have to hide themselves away from.

The thing is that I've gotten to know some of these shrouded women in my career in health care. They say they find the abaya a very feminine garment and feel protected by it.

FWIW, none of those women were doormats.

There is no way I could exist in that thing or in that culture, but I don't have a huge extended family to protect me from isolation. Women in that culture look at things differently, though. They don't have to be veiled in the west and many choose not to be. Apparently the women you saw chose to be veiled.

[Radio_Lady]

24. Thank you, Warpy. If it's just a choice, that's fine.

But don't little girls honor their mothers and want to emulate them?

[Warpy]

253. I rebelled against mine!

In fact, most of us who grew up in the 50s and early 60s rebelled against our mothers. The LAST thing we wanted to be was June Cleaver, unless Ward had his dink in a million bucks and we could be assured of tearing him a new one via a favorable divorce settlement.

We wanted our own lives. Most little girls of shrouded women living in the west will want the same.

[Radio_Lady]

283. Yes, I'm beginning to see rebellion brewing with my 8-year-old grandgirl

against her mother's strong Judaism. I wonder what's up ahead for my daughter. Strap in for a bumpy ride in adolescence!!!!

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[annabanana]

75. They feel protected

from the uncontrollable sexual urges of strange men? Why are men in these societies not expected to control themselves, or to be unable to control themselves? Or should the subject of sexual self control never "distract" them from "men's work"...?

[Warpy]

99. You'd have to ask THEM that

I'm just reporting what they told me.

[Nikia]

189. Sometimes, I'd like to be protected too

I don't know why men stare at me provocatively when I wear most dresses, shorts, or anything form fitting. It is though showing a little bit of skin gives them the right to sexually harass me even when the clothing is functional, like wearing shorts while running.
I understand why some women might want to cover up.
For whatever reason, men and women are not equal in their culture or our culture in this way. In every culture, more women get raped by men than men get raped by women a huge margin. We should not pretend that this is not the case.

[JuniperLea]

83. did they give any indication that they didn't enjoy being

a doormat?

Good post, btw...

[Cornus]

7. What does this have to do with prejudice?

ABC Nightly News did a segment on women wearing the veil as I was reading your post. One woman from Detroit said that she finds wearing the veil to be liberating. I don't understand a woman living in the American culture wanting to do this, but if it's her choice, who cares? I certainly don't.

[Radio_Lady]

26. Thank you, Cornus.

You have no personal profile. I don't know if you're a man or a woman.

I think that may have some bearing on your position, or am I wrong?

Welcome to the DU.

[notadmblnd]

8. sympathy

nt

[Radio_Lady]

33. You are suggesting this is sympathy? I don't understand.

[notadmblnd]

249. I feel sympathy for the woman.

nt

[Blue_in_CA]

9. Prejudice?

You see that and assume a "rapacious" husband. As if all muslim men who have wives that wear burkas are dishonorable beasts who deserve to have their children taken from them. Yes, you are prejudiced.

[Radio_Lady]

35. The use of the word "rapacious" is regrettable. I have edited it out.

He could be adoring, but that doesn't change the feelings.

[spoony]

90. Some other regrettable things

"one of these women"
"The dark-skinned man"
and
"black ghosts"

[Radio_Lady]

160. I don't regret those expressions and therefore didn't change them.

"One of these women..." what the heck is wrong with that? I'm defending my own writing here.

"The dark-skinned man..." just an expression of what I saw. He was lighter than a Nigerian and darker than a Caucasian. Give me a break.

"Black ghosts" was an expression that my granddaughter came up with -- not my original phrase, but I found it acceptable in this commentary. Sorry you didn't agree.

Here's the backstory:

We were at a yard sale when my granddaughter was about four years old. She had never seen anyone like that Saudi woman, who was poking around in the items on the table. My granddaughter was frightened, and she backed away and tucked herself into my skirt. I bent over to talk with her, and she whispered the question in my ear, "Grandma, is she a black ghost?"

We talked about the covering of women, and she was somewhat acquainted with the concept, since her mother was sending her to an Orthodox Jewish day school where women wore wigs to cover their natural hair, dresses down to the floor, and long sleeves, even in summer. Now she goes to public school and she has a much different perspective at age eight.

Thank you for your opinions.

[spoony]

275. If I were you I wouldn't brag

that my style of commentary regarding the differences between cultures was lifted from a four-year-old. Thankfully some adults here get it.

[Radio_Lady]

279. Pardon me, but I am not "bragging" -- only "reporting" what a four year old said.

If you want to turn this into nit-picking over a description of a woman dressed all in black as a "black ghost" -- I will not participate in the discussion.

Please read this thread thoroughly. Other writers have referred to people with their faces covered and dressed in black as being sinister and threatening to us in our society.

I really don't know what you are driving at by twice questioning my use of language in this commentary, but this is our last exchange on the subject.

Good night and good luck.

[KoKo]

10. What they wear is their business......not mine. We have invaded two

countries to (according to Idiot Bush/PNAC/NEOCONS to bring them DEMOCRACY!

They need to fight for their OWN RIGHTS...WE FOUGHT FOR OURS.

It's her problem ...and not mine. Mine is to keep my own family "above water" under the Bush Crime Family...I'm already paying money to try to support her rights. I don't think this is fair. I want to support my OWN RIGHTS! Let her fight for her own. I'm fighting every day for my FAMILIES RIGHTS in a country that I thought I helped BUILD.

[Phillycat]

15. I see burqas every day in Philly.

There are lots of Muslims here. And I have to say the majority of the time, the woman is alone - not trailing behind a man. Also, they always have cool shoes on underneath - today's lady had Adidas Samba's poking out from under hers.

They seem happy. :shrug: Who am I to judge?

[Radio_Lady]

45. Great post. Thanks for your viewpoint.

[Critters2]

55. The photos shown are of abayas, not burqas. The burqa covers everything

including the eyes.

[Phillycat]

62. I see both here.

The ones with the "mail slot" eye slits, and the ones with the mesh like beekeepers outfits. Also tons of headscarves and robes. There is a huge muslim population here.

[LSdemocrat]

16. Have you considered it was HER choice to dress that way?

Many Muslim women, especially in western countries, choose themselves to dress in that manner as an expression of who they are. Who are you to tell someone what she can and can't wear?

And don't get me started on your desire to take her kids away.

[Matariki]

32. there are also women who support the tradition of clitorectomies

just because it's part of the culture. i don't have to like it. because i see it as a human rights issue i can even work to change it, even though i'm outside the culture.

[Phillycat]

40. The comparison of a style of dress to genital mutilation is repellent.

Understatement of the year: NOT THE SAME THING.

[distantearlywarning]

46. Not the same thing?

The intent feels the same to me - making a woman into less of a human, making her nothing more than an object for her husband to use, taking away some critical part of her. For me, wearing a full length burka would be like cutting away part of my soul. Is that better or worse than cutting away part of my genitals?

[Phillycat]

48. Oh, boy...

As I said in this thread, I see women every day on the streets of Philadelphia who choose to wear a burqa. When you try to convince me that these women, who are comfortable in their clothing and their skin, can be compared to a victim of genital mutilation, I am going to laugh in your face.

[distantearlywarning]

59. Laugh if you want.

To me, they are more or less extreme manifestations of the same idea.

[Phillycat]

60. They don't need your help, honey.

It's their choice.

[distantearlywarning]

66. Choice is a relative term.

I do not believe that women trained to submission from birth have a "choice" in the same way that I have a "choice". And in some countries, exercising their "choice" to take off the burka may get women beaten, imprisoned, or killed.

And please don't call me honey. We don't know one another that well. :-)

[Phillycat]

69. The OP was about seeing a woman in Muslim dress here in the US

Your argument about what happens in other countries is outside of the scope of this conversation.

Is "Cupcake" better? :D

[distantearlywarning]

181. Choice is a relative term.

Here and there. See my post down thread about Mormon fundamentalists.

[kath]

185. How do you know if the woman *chooses* to wear it, or if the husband or

father forces or pressures her to??
Can a free "choice" actually be made in the face of intense social/cultural pressure??

[JuniperLea]

91. How do you know those women feel that way?

Aren't you projecting your own feelings? Feeling based on your own culture, not theirs?

[Phillycat]

102. Well, I interact with them.

They talk, they laugh, they play with their children. I don't know, they seem normal and at peace. :shrug:

[Phillycat]

103. Whoops, I thought you were replying to me.

We are in agreement. :)

[Matariki]

63. My POINT - which you completely missed

whether inadventently or argumentatively - is that just because women in a culture advocates it doesn't make it any less sexist - or any less of a human rights issue.

while i believe a person can dress any way they want - and i think that should include running down the beach naked - i find forcing women to cover themselves from head to toe or risk being stoned, beaten, spit on, jailed and flogged, or put to death, ABSOLUTELY REPREHENSIBLE. All those things happen in fundementalist countries. So do you find THAT somehow more acceptable than a clitorectomy?

[Phillycat]

65. The OP was about seeing a woman in Muslim dress in the US

Your argument has nothing to do with the post.

[Matariki]

71. the OP was about what that mode of dress brings to mind

and all those things i mentioned are what it brings to mind for me. your milage may vary.

[Phillycat]

73. Well, I suppose to the uninformed that might be the case.

But anyone who bothers to understand Muslim culture knows that anyone who is veiled in the West has CHOSEN to be veiled. Women are not required to wear the traditional dress over here. So the difference between seeing a woman in Saudi Arabia in a burqa and a woman in Boston (or wherever) is quite significant.

[Matariki]

89. You know what - I just don't like fundamentalism in general

I don't think it's healthy and I think 'choice' is a misleading word. But I agree, people in *this* country have the right to wear pretty much what they want - and I would defend that right even if I think the attire represents something that's sort of misguided.

[Phillycat]

101. Then we are in agreement. nt

[Radio_Lady]

200. Yes, we are. By the way, I've had feelings about inappropriateness

of extensive tattoos, piercings in various parts of the body, excessive and garish make-up, grossly overdone facial surgery in both men and women, the "Goth" look, and anything denim for dressy wear.

But I respect your right to dress and look any way you want, as long as it is not forced on you because you are a woman and judged to be a "second class" citizen in whatever fundamentalist society you happen to be born into...

That about covers it.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[guinivere]

68. Good grief!

Mutilation is NOT even CLOSE to wearing a burqa.

If Muslim women wish to change how they appear in public, they will change their lives themselves. Being outside the culture, I think you or I have little to say in a Muslim woman's life.

[Matariki]

74. How did you feel about Apartheid in South Africa?

Assuming you find one class of people forced to live as second class citizens - even though your are outside of that culture - why do you think it's okay when it's women?

[distantearlywarning]

78. Agreed.

I was thinking about Nazi Germany. It was German culture of the time to oppress Jewish people, make them live in ghettos, and so forth. Should the appropriate response from anyone not living in Nazi Germany have been "well, they'll take care of it themselves, I'm not living there so I have no right to say anything"?

We all have the right and the duty to speak out against injustice wherever we find it.

[JuniperLea]

105. That's different

There were people within that culture working to change it! It wasn't about someone from the outside trying to make a change for them, without their agreement.

Change and evolution within ones own culture is a natural process and is a perfectly good thing. Forcing change from without is bad regardless of intent.

[distantearlywarning]

109. Are you suggesting that there are no women in the Middle East

working to change these aspects of their own culture? How many of them should there be before someone in the West is allowed to help or have an opinion?

[JuniperLea]

271. I never suggested, implied or alluded to anything like that

You are grasping at straws, putting words in my mouth and you clearly do not get the gist of the situation. All women all over the world have the right to change their lives if they so desire. And there are women in those same cultures who love their way of life and do not care to change it. The women who want change have no right to force other women within the same culture to change.

[Matariki]

132. what distantearlywarning said!

[pitohui]

222. good post, kineta

i too am tired of the idea that it's ok when it's a woman

[Nikia]

193. Dress can be changed at any time, mutalation is pretty permanent

And not all women may find covering up to be degrading. If it is a choice that she makes and can choose to change at any time, I don't have a problem with it. I do think that forcing women to wear it is oppressive, but not if it is truly a choice.

[Radio_Lady]

52. I have considered those points. However, we can't get away from

the fact that we women are TRAINED this way, rather than CHOOSING it. Am I not correct?

The children are another story. I just thought about the little girl and her future. Would it be better with a Grandma who takes her grandkids to movies, theater, swimming, on travel, etc. -- who teaches that the world is her oyster and the last thing she might want to do is cover herself up?

Was this the same reason that might have driven Madonna to try and adopt a boy from a third world country? For a "better" life?

[woo me with science]

174. What do you think of that choice?

and of raising little girls in that environment?

[MariaS]

17. I understand where you are coming from

but we live in a society where woman not that long ago were treated very badly. My own mother was not allowed a hysterectomy when her health was in danger because my father wouldn't give his permission and that was in the 1950s. But we over came because we are a democracy and we as woman fought to be equal and even though we are not quite there yet we will be someday I hope. The women of Islam are steeped in a culture thousands of years old and face dire consequences for any act deemed inappropriate. They actually can face death for rebellious acts. I am sure there are Islamic woman who are content with their role in society just as I am sure there are Islamic woman that hate it. But just like us they must decide when the time is right to stand up for what they want. IMHO.

[Cleita]

18. I empathize with your sentiments, but that kind of change will

have to come from within their culture. I have noticed among strict Muslims, who immigrate here, that they loosen the strictures with their American born children. Many of these women are accustomed to this life and would probably have to go through some type of counseling to change their beliefs.

All of us are brainwashed to a certain degree and usually come around to our feminism when shocked out of it, like by an unhappy marriage or a husband who leaves you unexpectedly with the children or when you reach the glass ceiling at a job.

[Nikia]

194. Maybe, they get comfortable wearing the veil

If they have worn it their whole life, they might feel that going without is sort of like how many American women might feel about going topless in public.

[Cleita]

197. Actually, they do.

I have worked alongside Muslim women and they tell me that their moms and aunts feel this way.

[melissinha]

20. personally when I see one, I am curious about where she is from

I've had muslim friends though non wore burkas... I have had friends from many countries... I see these women and just wonder what her life is about... I try not to judge...

Whats weird is... that I think I am a classist... I was brought up in an American COmmunity abroad... We are used to seeing people from different cultures but I find myself having judgmental feelings about red-necks and the affulent hypocrits on the 700 club... I know its wrong cause almost always a contact with a person completely dissolves any stupid preconception of that other person... Its a hard thing dealing iwth your prejudices... just work through it and try to understand yourself and the other person.

[Radio_Lady]

198. Thank you for your post. I have been on travel in many countries of

the world. We have seen nine-year-old girls weaving rugs in Egypt. We've been offered "Chicklets" chewing gum by the Mexican beggar children. We've seen the bright faces of Chinese children in Canton at the zoo -- who had probably never seen a "round eyed" Caucasian person in their lives. Some of them smiled and said, "Thank you" when we handed them small wrapped candies on our tour. Some were too frightened to even come over to us.

I believe I have a good grip on reality and I don't really like to admit to prejudices. However, the clothing and covering issues seem simple, but they are still deeply disturbing to my feminine soul.

[Annces]

21. I read something today by Martin Prechtel in a book called

Long Life, Honey in the Heart.

He was talking about male initiation and how it really had to do with dueling with death in order to convince death to release the female principle of the Universe, as well as the boy's soul, which was his spirit bride.

If there is no true initiation, then death will still have their souls and they become makers of death, and destroyers of all that is female.

This woman hidden in black, is like a person perpetually in mourning. Repressed feminine.

[smirkymonkey]

129. Interesting way to look at it...

Sounds like an engaging book. I think I will look into it. Thanks for sharing :)

[Annces]

153. He is a very poetic writer - easy to read

I highly recommend. He was raised on an indian reservation in New Mexico but was drawn to the Mayans and was initiated by them. He came back to US and teaches.

[Radio_Lady]

203. Someone objected to the expression "black ghosts" -- but that phrase

came from my granddaughter who was shocked when she saw a woman with only eye slits and dressed completely in black at a yard sale here in Portland.

[guinivere]

22. You may think it demeaning, but maybe the veiled woman

does not.

I really don't see what the big deal is. This is an entirely different culture, that we know little about. People are free to practice their faith and dress in whatever manner they want in this country. Americanizing/westernizing everything and everyone on earth is wrong. Until we walk a mile in the veiled ladies shoes, we shouldn't assume anything about them, their relationships or their children.

[KoKo]

39. Agree..........n/t

[dogday]

51. I too agree with this statement...

I don't like it, but that is their culture.

[JuniperLea]

324. I agree

How would we like it if another culture were to descend on us and tell us we can no longer wear blue jeans, t-shirts, tennis shoes... or whatever your common attire is... and further, if they were to say that manner of dress that you feel comfortable in, that is how you have dressed all your life, is very bad in some way?

People need to take a step back and learn a little liberal live and let live. Just because some people perceive that others are being hurt in some way by the manner of their dress is absurd. It's an assumption.

Perhaps we should all rally to save the youth of today from themselves! Outlaw painful and mutilating practices such as tattoos and body piercings! :sarcasm:

[casus belli]

380. X4 n/t

[casus belli]

382. n/t please delete

[HardRocker05]

23. not being prejudiced doesn't mean you have accept anything done by another

another culture. why the heck would it? we sure don't have to accept everything done in american culture as being right.

[ck4829]

25. I saw a young woman who dressed like that this morning

I treated her the same way I treat everybody else.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. I Find Nothing Wrong With It. That's Their Culture And Their Way. They're Entitled And I

don't look down on them whatsoever for it. It may seem odd to us and stand out because it is different then what we are used to, but I respect their culture and their way of life, and if that incorporates them wearing such outfits then so be it.

As far as your statement of wanting to take the children goes, I found that to be pretty sick of a sentiment. Wanting to deprive someone of their children because you are of a different culture is definitely a mindset I can't support. You need to open your mind more to different cultures and their beliefs, and not be so self-arrogant and self-righteous to think that your morals and ethics are so superior that you have the right to declare parents of other cultures unfit. I found that line in your OP to be fairly sickening in its premise.

[MazeRat7]

29. The same thing I think when I see most women....

I wonder what she looks like naked ? (well you ask...:))

MZr7

[KoKo]

38. "I wonder what she looks like naked." Well....what can one say to a

statment like that. Methinks you were doing a "joke?" :eyes:

[MazeRat7]

43. You "thinks" right *grin.

[Throwing Stones]

30. It's not racist

to look at the rules and rituals of another and think to yourself "that is not for me."

That being said, I do and will continue to "look down" on all religions that preach intolerance; be it through sexism, racism, homophobism (is that a word?), or any other dogma that strips individuals of their inalienable rights and installs certain "leaders" who presume to know God's wishes.

If it looks like a snake-oil salesman, and walks like a snake-oil salesman ...

[KoKo]

41. I just don't get "imposing" my culture (which is rotten) onto other folks...

who am "I" to tell other cultures how to dress and what to think? The intelligensia of their group will seek and force the change. It's not MY VIEWS or my TAX MONEY that will ENFORCE IT!

[KoKo]

34. It's a choice between: Paris Hilton "Strut your Stuff" (Silicone Breasts)

or the Burqa.. There's not much inbetween these days is there?

[distantearlywarning]

42. In my mind,

Paris Hilton and her ilk are just as bad. That way of life teaches little girls that their sole value in the universe is as a sexual object for a man. Oh, and the skinnier the better.

So...we have the choice of disappearing behind the veil or disappearing (except for the fake boobs) because we don't eat. Not good either way.

How about a middle ground where women are people?

[WildEyedLiberal]

256. "How about a middle ground where women are people?"

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Thank you.

[Uncle Joe]

36. I thought this was an interesting story

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/opinion/23abdrabboh.html?ex=1277179200&en=7a85219a503e9074&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss


http://www.algore.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=273&topic=2322.0

By FATINA ABDRABBOH
Published: June 23, 2005
Cambridge, Mass.

I CONSIDER my appearance quite unremarkable. I'm 5 feet 8 inches, 150 pounds, fresh-faced and comfortably trendy - hardly, in my view, a look that should draw stares. Still, the Muslim headscarf, or hijab, that I wear makes me feel as if I am under a microscope.


Forum: Op-Ed Contributors
I try to go to the gym just about every morning. Because I work out with my scarf on, people stare - just as they do on the streets of Cambridge.

The other day, though, I felt more self-conscious than usual. Every television in the gym highlighted some aspect of America's conflict with the Muslim world: the war in Iraq, allegations that American soldiers had desecrated the Koran, prisoner abuse at Guantánamo Bay, President Bush urging support of the Patriot Act. The stares just intensified my alienation as an Arab Muslim in what is supposed to be my country. I was not sure if the blood rushing to my head was caused by the elliptical trainer or by the news coverage.

Frustrated and angry, I moved to another part of the gym. I got on a treadmill and started running as hard as I could. As sweat dripped down my face, I reached for my towel, accidentally dropping my keys in the process. It was a small thing, I know, but as they slid down the rolling belt and fell to the carpet, my faith in the United States seemed to fall with them. I did not care to pick them up. I wanted to keep running.

Suddenly a man, out of breath, but still smiling and friendly, tapped me on my shoulder and said, "Ma'am, here are your keys." It was Al Gore, former vice president of the United States. Mr. Gore had gotten off his machine behind me, picked up my keys, handed them to me and then resumed his workout.

It was nothing more than a kind gesture, but at that moment Mr. Gore's act represented all that I yearned for - acceptance and acknowledgment.
There in front of me, he stood for a part of America that has not made itself well known to 10 million Arab and Muslim-Americans, many of whom are becoming increasingly withdrawn and reclusive because of the everyday hostility they feel.

It is up to us as Americans to change how the rest of the world views us by changing how we view some of our own citizens. Mr. Gore's act reminded me that rather than running away on my treadmill, I needed to keep my feet on the soil in this country. I left the gym with a renewed sense of spirit, reassured that I belong to America and that America belongs to me.

Fatina Abdrabboh is a student at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.

[Radio_Lady]

44. Thank you for sharing that story. Especially since I miss Boston so much!

We have Muslim women in our neighborhood, but their head scarves don't seem to bring out my feelings.

It's only the women dressed all in black from head to toe. Unless I'm mistaken, that is mostly the women of Saudi Arabia. I have never seen a woman in a burqa.

I do feel grateful I am not one of them. That's because I suffer so much in the heat!

[Uncle Joe]

47. I agree, the burqa is a bigger cultural adjustment than

the head scarf and veil, however I believe in France, they are now having cultural divisions with the head scarf.

[distantearlywarning]

56. Interestingly, the head scarves only don't bother me.

There are many female students at my university who wear the head scarf. I have sat next to those women in my classes, and I have had them in my classes as students. My first reaction to the head scarf is that it makes their faces look lovely. I think the head scarves convey an air of modesty and femininity that is appealing and attractive. I would wear one myself if it were appropriate in my own culture to do so. Those don't bother me at all. And I do perceive the women who wear them as having made a "choice".

The full length burkas on the other hand - those are different. They don't feel the same. They feel very, very wrong to me. And I have no tolerance for men who make their wives walk behind them in public. That's not right.

[Jamastiene]

140. The ones with the scarfs

tend to be friendlier and more open too. That could play a role. They seem more sociable.

[Radio_Lady]

228. Hi Jamastiene! Funny thing is, I used to wear a scarf all the time

in Florida when I was growing up. My boyfriend had an Oldsmobile convertible, and the other reason was -- I had acne then and thought it would hide the blemishes.

Haven't thought about all those scarves (which were quite fashionable) in a LONG time!

[Ron Green]

37. I think it's extreme.

I think complete coverage is extreme, and hope that it fades over time. I think pole dancing is extreme at the other end, and I wish the market for it would diminish. There is something to be said for the "middle way," and that is why I would avoid the following extremes:

Fundamentalist religion
Violent video games for children
Uncontrolled international trade
Pornography
Win-at-all-cost sports
Atheism
Eating contests

and so on.

[StellaBlue]

141. I don't think atheism is an extreme

Religion is extreme.

:shrug:

[Ron Green]

233. I think tolerant, charitable and spiritual religion is in the middle.

Hateful and warlike religion is at one extreme, and atheism is at the other.

[StellaBlue]

300. I totally and respectfully disagree.

atheism = a the ism = apathetic/no god/diety ism

This is not on a spectrum. All belief is a spectrum, perhaps, according to what you have set up here, with Unitarian Universalism on one end and, oh, hell, Wahabi Islam on the other. Or something like that. Atheism is a different plane altogether.

I am sorry, but I find your post demeaning to my nontheism. I generally follow what the Buddha called the "middle way", and this is totally independent of the edifice of religion.

:shrug:

Atheism is not an extreme, opposed to fanatical or devoted religion. It is just the lack of belief in unprovable supernaturalism. I think most atheists would agree with me, and also be perplexed/amused/offended by your post.

Peace.

[Ron Green]

314. I don't mean any offense.

In my somewhat long life, I've been at many points on the spectrum from no belief to fairly doctrinaire belief. My very liberal belief in a very all-encompassing God is, for me, the "middle way."

Peace to you as well.

:)

[Radio_Lady]

229. PLEASE... please don't eliminate tug-of-war or Sumo wrestling...

Those are proper sports.

But I do agree about those EATING CONTESTS. They ARE gross!

Nice to hear from you.

Good night and good luck, Ron_Green.

[Jamastiene]

258. Sounds like something similar to what the Buddha said.

The middle way being the best way is exactly what he said. Compromise is an art form that has been pushed by the wayside in our current world, unfortunately.

[SmokingJacket]

49. There's a difference between recognizing your prejudices and acting

on them.

I admit I am unnerved by seeing women in burkas. It's not something I'm used to seeing, and it seems strange for someone to hide their bodies so totally.

That said... I'm *aware* of my thoughts and try hard not to act on them. I believe that a person has the right to practice their religion as long as they don't hurt anyone, so I tell myself that.

We're not responsible for our passing thoughts or for the prejudices we're taught by our culture, but we ARE responsible for our actions.

[Radio_Lady]

225. Thanks for contributing your kind and generous opinions, Smoking Jacket.

These were only passing thoughts and, of course, I did not act on them at all.

I didn't even share these thoughts with my husband, only you folks here at the DU.

I am totally surprised at the level of discourse -- and also saddened by the discord.

And, frankly, I was amazed tonight to find that people had voted this for the "Greatest" page!

Good night and good luck!

[cool user name]

58. I understand your concern ...

As a progressive, seeing women covered from head to toe offends me ....

yet ... You should take care to avoid generalizing all Arabs and/or Muslims doing this. There are Muslims who do not practice this barbaric tradition.

If you realize the distinction, then you won't have to be worried about being called a racist.

[Critters2]

70. And there are Muslim women who practice this form of dress of their

own free will, and find it liberating.

Maybe we should give all women choices.

[guinivere]

88. Ding - ding - ding!

We have a winner!

[Radio_Lady]

201. I'd like to take those Muslim women swimming in the nude, under

the stars and the moon, on a warm and beautiful night -- and they might have some idea of what I believe is liberating.

[StoryTeller]

61. I think you are a little prejudiced...

...but not racially or culturally. You see the coverings and the walking behind as a sign of male domination over the lives of these women. You would be correct in that interpretation. The women--whether through out and out coercion or just simply through the process of cultural socialization--are not themselves *choosing* to cover. It doesn't mean that they all hate it or want to fight against it. Some, like others have posted, find a certain amount of freedom or security in it. But I would assume that the majority of them are not waking up in the morning with the conscious decision of whether or not they will cover that day. And it is a custom that has its origins in the decisions of men, not women.

It's also a custom that assumes that the bodies of women are a source of corruption and immorality to men. It places the burden of maintaining societal virtue on women. (For the record, we have in our American culture the very same oppressive views and tendencies--they just are exhibited in different ways.)

So I can see why it disturbs you so much. Perhaps if it were truly a choice originating with the woman for her own reasons, it wouldn't trouble you. But no matter how much we want to respect all cultures, there are parts of every culture (including our own) that are unjust and oppressive. It's okay, I think, to be bothered by this.

However, it becomes prejudice when we make value judgments about individual people we don't know, or broadly assigning members of a group a particular quality or trait. Like assuming all Muslim men are "rapacious" or mysogynists. Or when we wish we could take children away from their families so that they won't have to grow up in such an unjust situation. Or when we assume that the women are unhappy or long for freedom because they wear veils and coverings.

There's a fine line between being honest about the darker sides of any culture and becoming prejudiced against that culture because of it. I would encourage you to continue acknowledging the problems, but find positive ways to address it. Just becoming friends with some of these women, and learning to appreciate the positive aspects of their culture, would go a long way in achieving this sort of balance.

Like others have said, you can't be the one to "fix" it from outside the culture. We need to provide love and compassion and true friendship, without an agenda. And we need to stay humble enough to recognize that the same oppression and darkness is evident in our own culture--though it may take different forms. We don't have any right to point fingers. But we can extend our hands in friendship, and that is what will ultimately bring justice and freedom.

[annabanana]

93. Thank you for this well reasoned post.

The difference between noting the differences in cultural habits and applying specific personality traits to individuals encompassed by those cultural habits is where we tend to get in trouble. When it comes to interacting with individuals, I try to take people as they wish to be taken, regardless of what they're wearing or their accent etc etc

[Radio_Lady]

212. StoryTeller and AnnaBanana, thanks for both of your posts.

[Critters2]

67. My Middle East history professor explained the abaya this way:

Muhamad thought men were too motivated by their sexual urges to be trusted around women they didn't know--or even those they did! The abaya kept these uncontrollable men from seeing the form of a woman's body and being moved to behave inabppropriately (violently or otherwise) toward her. So, the abaya and burqa are there NOT because Muhamad thought badly of women, but of men--just lust-driven scum, really.

This is also why women are at the back of a mosque during prayers. Men looking up from prostrations to see the derrieres of women would be distracted from their prayers. Muhamad believed women had better self-control and could be trusted to keep praying while looking at men's butts. Me, it would depend on the butt.

We assume this has to do with oppression of women, when it may come from distrust of men.

[JuniperLea]

72. I would think it would make the women feel very special

They are so beautiful and so sexy, they cannot allow men to see them:) It could very well be that the women LOVE wearing that stuff! Who are we to judge? We know nothing about their culture!!!

Very cool! Thanks for posting that.

Perspective is everything! We should not judge other cultures from our perspective! GWB does enough of that for all of us!

[Matariki]

81. The best cure for this is for us all to go naked

have you ever been to a nudist camp? it is SO completely unerotic. Or have you ever read Joyce's Ulysses? There's a scene where the main character sees a bit of calf (back when women didn't show leg above the ankle) and has a spontaneous ejaculation! So you see, the less women wear, the less men are distracted by the familiar.

[Radio_Lady]

195. Orthodox and Hassidic Jews do the same thing. They separate the

men from the women, and put up a screen so they can't even see each other. Women cannot have sex when they are menstruating, nor can they touch the Torah on "those days."

I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I think this is all absolutely rigid and stupid. I raised my children as Reform Jews, in a synagogue in which the prayers were in Hebrew and English, so we could understand what was being said!

My daughter has taken another path. She once invited me to a Hillel High Holy Day service in Boston. My husband had to sit with the men, and I could not be with him. The whole service was conducted in Hebrew, a language which I was never trained to understand. I fell asleep during the service, not a usual thing for me to do! We also went down to Newport, Rhode Island, where we went in to the oldest synagogue in the U.S. My daughter and I had to be satisfied with "looking down" on the service, as we were relegated to the balcony. The men were on the first floor handling the liturgy. Ridiculous! My daughter went to school in Israel for a whole year. She was thoroughly brainwashed when she arrived back in the United States. She has modified some of her beliefs because she married a man for whom the whole business was not that important. I'm glad she didn't take up the Muslim religion or put herself into a nunnery. She might have joined a cult, given them all of her money, shaved her head, or tramped off to Tibet.

When I was a teenager, Conservative Judaism only offered "confirmation" to women, not Bat Mitzvah ("Daughter of the Commandments"). I was a second-class citizen and I have pretty much turned my back on the religion of my birth. Sorry for the rant.

[cali]

247. If you don't see why

what you just wrote is incredibly sexist and demeaning to women, you're hopeless. That said, this is not a topic I particularly care about. It's not something I, or anyone else outside the culture, can change.

[JerseygirlCT]

329. Except, as I've said elsewhere, the culture's patriachical

response is to curtail *women's* behavior. That IS oppressing women.

Because men would be tempted or distracted, women's behavior is limited. Their very view of the world is lessened -- literally -- to a small square. Their ability to move freely in the world is constrained. Their ability to control their lives.

Seems to me it might be better for the men to have to take responsibility for themselves and their own weaknesses and behavior.

[Arugula Latte]

330. Well, isn't that special that women have to suffer 'cuz men can't keep it zipped.

.

[Coexist]

76. Have you ever read: Reading Lolita in Tehran?

I am going to copy and paste from a post I wrote a long time ago on that book:

"One of the things that really struck me was that they were fairly westernized. They had what we are trying to bomb Iraq into.

And slowly, but relentlessly, their freedoms were chipped away. People always say that free people will not submit to tyranny, but this book proves, sadly, that it is possible to be "pecked to death by a duck".

One denied right, one forsaken privilege, one firmly held belief let go of at a time, these people were thrown into the fearful life that comes with the rise of the State. And it changed them inside.

When she give in and wears the veil to teach, I cried. She writes "it seems I had to constantly remind people that the University was not a grocery store." I felt such a loss then, and again when Mahtab shows up in her black chador, once "the leftist student in her trademark khakis pants"."

When they being to HAVE to wear the veil, and how they rebelled by wearing red nailpolish (that was hidden) or colorful dresses under their robes, it made me so incredibly sad - I actually have tears in my eyes right now typing this, the memories from that book still affect me that much.

So I guess I harbor a prejudice against cultures that subjugate 50% of their citizens.

[distantearlywarning]

87. But here I thought all these women had a "choice"!

And they were all perfectly happy with wearing the burka. You mean some of them find it *gasp* oppressive??? Say it isn't so!!! How can we worship at the altar of culture if these women keep insisting that they don't like it?

:sarcasm:

[Phillycat]

110. As I (and others) have stated several times on this thread

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between seeing a woman in Saudi Arabia (or Teheran) in a burqa, and seeing one in the US, which is what the OP was about.

One more time, for the cheap seats: In the West, Muslim women are not required to wear traditional garb. Therefore, they are, in fact, CHOOSING to wear the burqa, or headscarf, or whatever.

I don't think anyone is arguing that women who are stoned to death in a foreign country for not wearing a burqa aren't opressed. They most certainly are. But I do think people are arguing against the OP's point of view - when she encountered a Muslim woman HERE, in the States, and made assumptions about the woman's level of opression.

[Matariki]

115. just curious what you think about the Slate article mentioned in post 77?

[Phillycat]

125. It was an interesting read.

But ultimately, I disagree. We are tolerant of yarmulkes on Jews, giant cross pendants on Christians, prayer beads on Buddhists. We can tolerate a veil on Muslims. We are supposed to be the country of tolerance and acceptance for all, right? Or at least the political party? :shrug:

[Matariki]

142. the point of the article wasn't religious garb

but how this culture views people masking their faces. So the comparison to yarmulkes isn't really a apt one.

Personally I have ambivalent feelings about it. I don't think anyone should be forced to dress - or not dress - in a certain way. On the other hand I tend to agree with the article. There is something disturbing about interacting with someone whose face I can't see. It's true that within *this* culture, hiding one's face has lots of negative connotations. But I wouldn't propose a law against it. Actually though, I believe there might be laws against wearing masks in certain situations.

[Phillycat]

147. Maybe in a bank, huh?

:D

[Radio_Lady]

213. FLDem5, my aunt suggested the book to me, but I didn't get to read it.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. Perhaps I can scan some excerpts of it on amazon.com -- or pick up a used copy at Powell's book store!

[Nikia]

277. I read the book too, but I don't know if she'd agree with you

One of her arguements against requiring the veil was the mindset of her grandmother who chose to wear the veil as a sign of her religious devotion and thought that requiring it for everyone took away something from choosing to wear the veil.
I also took the "University was not a grocery store" to mean that there might be some places where women might be more comfortable veiling (in a public place with strangers who might have different values) and less comfortable veiling(in a place where the values and interpersonal dynamics are established).

[Coexist]

319. I disagree - the veil was a symbol throughout the book,

to me, it is clear that she had an intense dislike of it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_Lolita_in_Tehran

"The issue of veiling in Iranian society is a running theme in the book.<8> In Nafisi's words: "My constant obsession with the veil had made me buy a very wide black robe with kimonolike sleeves, wide and long. I had gotten to the habit of withdrawing my hands into the sleeves and pretending that I had no hands." Ayatollah Khomeini decreed Iranian women must follow the Islamic dress code on March 7th, 1979. In Nafisi’s view, this was the icon of oppression in the aftermath of the revolution. Nafisi wrote in her book referring to Khomeini's funeral: "The day women did not wear the scarf in public would be the real day of his death and the end of his revolution." Ayatollah Khomeini established the new regime after a referendum (March 30 and 31, 1979) in which more than 98% of the Iranian people voted for the creation of the republic.<9> Before the revolution, Iranian women were not obligated to wear the veil for almost fifty years.<10>"

to me there is a strong suggestion that the reason that her grandmother had CHOSEN to wear the veil become sullied and muddied by the political hijacking of that religious symbol.

from an interview with Azar
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_nafisi.html
<snip>
AZAR NAFISI: This image was definitely dishonest. And the other ones, like a Satanic power, was trying to come out of this one. You know? So I would show a strand of hair. Or I would kiss a male colleague in the hall, you know? Just because I guess I wanted to prove to myself that the real me is really this, you know? It's not gone away forever.

DAVID BRANCACCIO: Yeah, the strand of hair that might peep out from behind a veil comes up a lot actually in the book. What is the threat of a strand of hair, for heaven's sake?

AZAR NAFISI: Well, first of all, I want to mention that the regime used the idea of the veil, the fact that women's hair is supposed to tempt men. Now what kind of men would be tempted by my strand of hair? I mean, they really have got problems they should be thinking about.

But that's beside the point. They use it as an ideology, in fact, to impose a uniformity upon the population in the same way that in China people had to wear Mao jackets. And women couldn't wear makeup. And they had to wear their hair short. This was not really religion. This was ideology — using religion as an ideology.

DAVID BRANCACCIO: Used as a tool of oppression.

AZAR NAFISI: Yes, as a tool of control. Because you would all look alike. And you would all look the way that the guy who was ruling your country told you to look. This was extreme form of control. And you see it in all totalitarian states.

,snip>
DAVID BRANCACCIO: I want to fully understand your attitude toward Islam. You talk about, you find wearing the veil offensive to you. But what about the notion of Islam itself?

AZAR NAFISI: You know, I think today, and that again is why Iran is so important. I think Islam is in a sense, in crisis. It needs to question and re-question itself. And it is undergoing-- a period of turmoil and crisis, because it is in this process of transition.

Now, the point about religion is that this religion is going to undergo transformation. And you see many of the clerics and religious people in Iran discussing it, and being self-reflective and self-critical.

What I'm saying is that if you live in a country which the majority of people are Muslim, that doesn't mean that there should be one version of Islam, and that no other version should be practiced. People talk about Islamic democracy. I don't understand it. It's like saying Christian democracy, Judaic democracy. There is only one form of democracy which protects the life and the right of all citizens. To worship, to realize their fullest potentials.

[KamaAina]

77. This came up in Slate just the other day

The verdict: "Removing a full-face veil at work is simply a matter of politeness."

http://www.slate.com/id/2152031/

Quite a long time ago, having briefly joined the herd of twentysomething backpackers who eternally roam Southeast Asia, I found myself in Bali. Like all the other twentysomethings, I carefully read the Lonely Planet backpacker's guide to Indonesia and learned, among other things, that it was considered improper for women to wear shorts or trousers when entering Balinese temples. I dutifully purchased a Balinese sarong and, looking awkward and foreign, wore it while visiting temples. I didn't want to cause offense.

I thought of that long-ago incident while in London last week, where a full-fledged shouting match has broken out over Islamic women who choose to wear the veil. This particular argument began when a Yorkshire teaching assistant refused to remove her full-face veil—a niqab, which covers the whole face except for the eyes—in the presence of male teachers, which was much of the time. She was fired, she went to court, and a clutch of senior British politicians entered the fray....

And yet, at a much simpler level, surely it is also true that the full-face veil—the niqab, burqa, or chador—causes such deep reactions in the West not so much because of its political or religious symbolism, but because it is extremely impolite. Just as it is considered rude to enter a Balinese temple wearing shorts, so, too, is it considered rude, in a Western country, to hide one's face. We wear masks when we want to frighten, when we are in mourning, or when we want to conceal our identities. To a Western child—or even an adult—a woman clad from head to toe in black looks like a ghost. Thieves and actors hide their faces in the West; honest people look you straight in the eye.

Given that polite behavior is required of schoolteachers or civil servants in other facets of their jobs, it doesn't seem to me in the least offensive to ask them to show their faces when dealing with children or the public. If Western tourists can wear sarongs in Balinese temples to show respect for the locals, so, too, can religious Islamic women show respect for the children they teach and for the customers they serve by leaving their head scarves on but removing their full-face veils.

[Coexist]

98. very good argument.

that is a new way to think about it.

[marions ghost]

145. sounds good in theory

but not quite as simple. A western woman having to wear a sarong out of respect for another tradition does not violate her religious beliefs or involve an uncomfortable act of unveiling.

On the other hand I do agree that we in the west view masks as impolite and threatening. We would find masks harder to tolerate on men than on women, and would expect that men remove them, so maybe it is fair to expect women not to wear them either.

It seems to me that if a person has a job as a schoolteacher or public servant in the west, as the article points out, she needs to omit the veil. A lot of communication happens through facial expression. There are other jobs she could do while wearing the veil--nobody would care if she were in a cubicle at a computer, for example.

I think that the limitations imposed by the veil do cause problems in certain areas where communication with strangers is necessary. The woman wearing the veil in western culture has to accept that.

[Radio_Lady]

205. KamaAina, thank you so much for that interesting post.

Perhaps if the complete covering was in all white (which makes more sense because of the reflectivity factor) instead of all black, maybe I wouldn't have the reaction. The women would look like soaring angels!

This image is a little bit over the top, but you get the idea!



In peace,

Radio_Lady

[earth mom]

80. Don't judge.

Would you feel the same way about an amish woman who has no career to speak of and who devotes her life to her family?! Probably not. IMO, religion is such a personal thing that I don't think anyone should impose their religous beliefs on anyone else. I have severe knee jerk reactions when christian fundies try to foist their beliefs on everyone else because it's just so invasive not to mention none of their damn business what other people believe!

One of the best documentaries I've ever seen is one I saw on PBS called "Inside Mecca" (it's available on DVD from both PBS & Amazon.) It really helped me to understand just how much the muslim faith means to it's followers and how much their lives are centered around their faith which in turn helped me to understand womens roles in that culture. I highly recommend it.

As for your question...I'd say the real question is:
Why do you feel the need to impose your western belief system and lifestyle on eastern muslim women?

[JuniperLea]

97. Best! Post! On! This! Thread!

"Why do you feel the need to impose your western belief system and lifestyle on eastern muslim women?"


Brilliant and perfect!


We cannot measure others with a yardstick that indicates our own cultural points.

Why do people have so much trouble with basic live and let live mentality?

[earth mom]

119. Thank you, but your posts wowed me first!

:blush:

[KoKo]

104. A good post by YOU, TOO! n/t

[earth mom]

123. Your posts wowed me too!

:hi:

[distantearlywarning]

116. I used to live in Arizona.

I have posted on DU before about my experiences as a social worker serving fundamentalist Mormon communities.

I disapproved of that lifestyle for the same reason, and in the same degree as I do fundamentalist Islamic sects that force their women to don the burka and be subservient to men. When the women would come into my office wearing their long shapeless dresses, I was troubled. Do women from Colorado City, UT have a "choice" to dress that way? Yes, if you take into consideration many years of cultural conditioning, no transportation, education, or money, and the possibility that they may face punishment or have to leave their children behind if they leave. So few women have been able to "choose" to leave that lifestyle that the ones who have write books about it. It's not the norm. The norm is being married at 14 to a man the church chooses for you, spending your youth bearing many children, and being the property of a man. And that's something that happens here in the U.S., a nation where women have "freedom".

I despise fundamentalist Mormonism. I did what I could to help those women in the capacity of my state job. And I would argue that Mormonism is just about as Western a religion as you can get. So where's the "forcing of western belief system and lifestyle" in this example?

I don't know much about the Amish. If they oppress their women in a similar way to fundamentalist Mormonism and fundamentalist Islam, then I would condemn them also.

[Coexist]

321. From an Iranian woman - her thoughts on "oh, its their culture":

AN: I very much resent it in the West when people from—maybe with all the good intentions or from a progressive point of view—keep telling me,"It's their culture." It's like telling people—actually, we are in Boston—it's like saying, the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches. First of all, there are aspects of culture which are really reprehensible, and we should fight against it. We shouldn't accept them. Second of all, women in Iran and in Saudi Arabia don't like to be stoned to death.

RB:

AN: It's not part of their culture. There are other things that are part of their culture that should be cherished and exchanged and it makes me very angry. Or people tell you, "Oh but you're Western." Why, because I don't wear the veil? Is there a formula for all women who are Christians? Should they all look the same? Or Jewish women? So, it is a very fundamentalist discourse, and many people buy into it—which is very condescending, about people in my country.


http://www.identitytheory.com/interviews/birnbaum139.php

[Cleita]

387. So should we run about snatching abayas and hajibs off the

Arab women we encounter? I don't think they would be grateful.

[Jed Dilligan]

85. As long as the law provides that no one is forced to do this,

and public education ensures that no one believes this is the only way to live, I see no problem with people choosing this lifestyle.

[Coexist]

92. I will Google it, but I believe that women are punished

if they are dressed "unchastely".

[Phillycat]

106. Not in America, which is what the OP was about. nt

[distantearlywarning]

117. Do you know this for sure?

n/t

[Phillycat]

126. She says it was in Dallas/Fort Worth

I mean, she might be lying, but it seems clear that it was in the US. :shrug:

[Radio_Lady]

227. Hello? I'm the OP. These observations took place in two US airports.

Boston's Logan Airport a few decades ago, and then last night at DFW (Dallas Ft. Worth) -- our interim stop at American Airline's hub city on our return flights from Orlando, Florida to Portland, Oregon.

These are women who may be Saudi Arabian citizens on travel, or Americans observing their religious dress, but all of my sightings of them were in the United States.

Although we have been to Turkey and Egypt and France, and more recently to London and Scotland. I don't recall ever giving the head scarves a thought when we were in Europe or the Middle East.

Appreciate the chance to clarify this discussion for you.

Good night and good luck!

[smirkymonkey]

155. You don't know the dynamics of their family or their relations

with the men in their community. How will she be treated if she tosses off the veil and decides to go "western" in public? She probably wouldn't be stoned to death, but she would most likely be ostracised and perhaps even disowned or abused by her husband. Who would support her? Would she be willing to leave all she has ever known behind for the freedom of wearing whatever she pleased?

Can you see why it's not really a "choice". Besides, nowhere in the Quran does it mandate wearing of the veil or covering the face for women. It is not about their religion, the REASON behind making women cover themselves head to toe is rooted in patriarchy and sexism. It has nothing to do with god, and everything to do with man.

[Jed Dilligan]

133. I'm punished if I dress unchastely too...

If I whip it out in a bar I'll be 86'd and arrested.

The question is whether the punishment is legal or illegal--it's not legal to beat your spouse, but shaming and cold shoulders are part of any normal relationship...

I'm willing to be culturally relative up to the point where people are actually hurt, imprisoned, etc. I don't think simply wearing the veil is direct evidence of any such thing.

[Matariki]

107. I don't understand how any so-called liberals can support

treating a whole class of people as second class citizens. And say shit like 'they like it' or they 'choose it'. If it were any other group than women you would be all over yourselves with indignation.

If a whole class of people was stoned or beaten for showing their faces I'm assuming you would all be good liberals and be very upset - so WHY in the world do you call it a 'cultural thing' when it's women? If a whole class of people were singled out and not allowed to vote, or drive, or go anywhere with someone else's permission I'm assuming you all would have a problem with that. So are you just sexist or what?

[Phillycat]

111. See post 110.

And I am a feminist liberal female type person. So...no. :D

[Matariki]

122. so what then?

I've noticed that you keep differentiating between burkas in the US vs the middle east. I can understand the point - sort of like when the ACLU defends the ku klux klan's right to free speech.

What is your feeling about how women are treated there - you okay with that? Or do you think it's 'cultural sensitivity' to not be offended by it?

[Phillycat]

128. Yikes.

Would you do me a favor and go back and read post 110 again? I think I answer all your questions clearly in it. :shrug:

[smirkymonkey]

148. Thank you - I have been trying to make that point here until I am

blue in the face, but to no avail. Apparently, a lot of people here just don't give a shit about female oppression, or in some cases I think they are secretly rooting for it.

Proponents of slavery used to say that enslaved populations "chose" slavery, or even enjoyed it, because it was widely thought that "dark" people were lesser human beings and therefore incapable of functioning independently of a slave owner. Some of them even "chose" to stay on the plantations after they were freed, not because they liked slavery but because it was all they knew. I think it's the same with women living in extremist Muslim sects (or Christian sects) - the oppression has been internalized and the fear of change feels too threatening.

[HardRocker05]

234. what you said. nt

[Jamastiene]

120. It irks me too, but what irks me even more is that

even when these women come to America to live, they still choose to cover their entire bodies like that. I can't understand it. I don't get the logic behind it. How is it not against women? Men have never been forced to cover themselves like that nor would anyone or any religion ever ask them to either. It's just anti-women to me all the way around.

I am prejudiced toward that certain sect of that religion. I do know women who dress moderately in that religion and do not feel the need to turn into practically ghost like creatures. I have no problem with them because they are being reasonable, IMO. But, If they get to a point where they are free to feel the sunshine on their skin and still insist on never feeling that sunshine, I just will never understand.

[Rex]

121. People get scared of different cultures.

Some handle it with hatred and fear, others are tolerant to a point, some people just don't have a problem with it. It just takes time.

[AnnieBW]

127. My Feelings About it,

This is America, not Saudi Arabia. You're free to remove your veil if you want to.

[JerseygirlCT]

134. I have an admittedly viceral reaction to ANY religion that

requires women to cover themselves b/c men apparently can't be trusted to behave themselves.

If a woman *freely* chooses to be a part of such system, then it's her choice, and my reaction is my problem.

HOWEVER, there are many places in the world where women really have no such choice. It's conform or be harrassed at best, raped and killed quite likely. That pisses me off entirely.

[Megahurtz]

135. The Saudi men are prejudiced against women.

Obviously.

I find it disgusting.

[EstimatedProphet]

136. My feelings

I don't have the authority to tell people that are part of another culture/religion/etc. that they are wrong because they don't do things the way I think they should.

[Matariki]

146. So you're another person on this thread who didn't oppose Apartheid?

[EstimatedProphet]

254. Hardly

and trying to compare women wearing a burqa to a white minority conquering a black majority and forcing them to live as slave labor, often at the expense of their lives, is not exactly an equal comparison. It's more of a laughable comparison, actually.

I don't feel like I should have the authority to stop Muslims and tell them that I don't like the way they treat women, in part because the situation is much more complex than is commonly reported, and in part just because I don' believe I should be able to interfere in people's lives. I would also remind the board that a lot of the backing of invading Afghanistan and Iraq in the media was centered around the 'we're liberating them from oppressive Islam.' It's done wonders for them so far, hasn't it?

Feel free to continue your crusade. Just don't count on me (or a lot of us, apparently) to try and forcibly convert the heathens.

[WildEyedLiberal]

263. Just a question...

Is there really that big a difference between whites oppressing blacks and men oppressing women?

I really could care less what the rationale for oppression is... "cultural"... "religious"... when one group of people oppresses another and turns them into legal second-class citizens, that is wrong. Period. Why is it less wrong when done to women in certain Islamic countries than when done to blacks in South Africa?

[EstimatedProphet]

331. No there isn't

The difference isn't in the group being oppressed, it's in the level of oppression. Saying that Islam is the same as Apartheid because some (SOME) women wear burqas is ridiculous. apartheid was real oppression - blacks weren't allowed any share at all in society, and were effectively slaves. If women are treated the same way under Islam, then I would be just as strongly opposed to it, but it is my understanding (gathered from Muslims, and experts on Islam, not paranoia peddlers like so much of US media has become) that the women-as-slaves story of Islam is pretty much propaganda.

[WildEyedLiberal]

333. Well, any culture that stones women to death for adultery.

requires that they cover themselves entirely to prevent them from "tempting" men, or rapes and murders them for the "honor" of the family is a pretty fucking oppressive culture in my book. Do you really think the status of women in Saudi Arabia is less "severe" than in apartheid Africa? Women can't drive or pratice a profession that requires them to deal with men - HOW is that different from apartheid? Sounds to me like they're not "allowed any share at all in society." How can you seriously argue that women have anything remotely resembling equality or dignity in these cultures?

It's ridiculous to dismiss radical Islam's degradation of women as "Bush propaganda." I was disgusted by the treatment of women by the Taliban and Saudi Arabia in the 90s when Clinton was president - it's not like the West magically started hearing of their oppression after 9/11 - such a suggestion is in and of itself propaganda.

I know full well that ALL Islamic nations are not like this, but to deny that this treatment even exists at all in the Islamic world is dangerously blind.

[EstimatedProphet]

363. In a case like that, of course I'm against it

That's barbaric, and a practice that should be stopped immediately.

But, do you know that it's going on? Document it, and you'll win me over. Please inform me. Because if you know it's going on the same way that most Americans "know" that Islamic fundamentalists are taught they will get 72 virgins if they kill someone and die, then I will be sceptical.

The paranoid disinformation that has come out in the last 30 years about Islam makes me entirely sceptical of most everything I hear. If you can provide something that verifies your claims, then you will win me over.

[smirkymonkey]

351. Thank you! Why is this simple idea so difficult for some to grasp?

The very REASON that women in certain Islamic sects (note, this is not mandated according to Quran or Mohammad)wear the burqua or niqab is rooted in patriarchy, sexism and the need to keep women oppressed and invisible.

Apparently, female oppression is ok with a lot of people, so they try to defend it claiming "cultural relativism". It's not about the f-ing outfit, it's about what it represents.

[EstimatedProphet]

364. That's all well and good

Yet it isn't anywhere the same thing as Apartheid. Not just wearing a burqa.

[smirkymonkey]

368. It's gender apartheid.

It's a symbol of their second-class citizen status.

:banghead:

[EstimatedProphet]

371. As I stated above, prove it

You want me to believe you? Show me. Give me some evidence that the philosophy behind Arabic dress for women is sexist by design. I'm afraid it doesn't cut it to say that it is just because anymore - not since Christian fundamentalism has declared a war on Islam, and has made "facts" so "obvious" to the American people, such as:

-Muslims who kill people in a holy war go straight to heaven and get 72 virgins to rape;
-Islam is not a true religion, but a pagan hangover of worshipping the Moon God;
-Muslims wipe their asses with their left hands;
-Middle Eastern food is made of stray cats;
-Arabs jumped for joy on 9/11 all over the Middle East;
-Islam's stated goal is to convert or kill anyone who doesn't believe in Allah;
etc.

I have heard so much patently jingoistic rhetoric about how evil and subhuman Arabic people are in the last several years that I have no choice but to reject all of it anymore, in the absence of documentation. My default assumption is nw that Muslims are blank slates, because I am told every day it seems that they are demons in human form, and I know that that isn't true. So, if you want me to believe that Middle Eastern women are being kept as slaves, show me. There's no other way I can believe you in this climate. The truth is buried under hatred and racism. If I am wrong, prove me wrong and I will agree with you. Until then, a burqa is a black sari that has a mask attached.

[stillcool]

143. people who live in glass houses...

who am I to judge your life?.., and who are you to judge mine?

[Matariki]

144. Well, if you are systematically repressing a whole class of people

then i'm going to judge you and work to stop you.

like someone else said upthread "when men are oppressed it's tragedy. when women are oppressed it's tradition."

[stillcool]

154. you must be more knowledgeable than I...

about the customs, and culture of different stratas of society in the Middle-east...I have a hard enough time navigating the one's I've lived in here.

[Matariki]

158. I've read a lot about women's issues, including in the middle east

although your sarcasm is duly noted. As someone else suggested, try reading 'Reading Lolita in Tehran' to get a perspective on what women are facing there. Or if you don't care, please don't criticize those of us who do. I realize we can all only work on a handful of issues important to us. I happen to care deeply about women's issues.

[stillcool]

166. I care deeply about women's issues right here...

the one's I am intimate with. I certainly would not criticize anyone's legitimate 'concerns'...I do criticize what knowledge, if any, fuels that concern.

[Nihil]

167. Just a thought ...

> if you are systematically repressing a whole class of people
> then i'm going to judge you and work to stop you.

I trust you are working twice as hard to stop GWB as he is systematically
repressing a whole lot more people in the USA than are wearing burqas ...

From reading this thread, this really is a hot button for you but it does
appear that you have lost objectivity here ... which means that you have
also lost your credibility to anyone who is not already convinced of your
"right" ...

[Matariki]

173. yeah - systematized sexism IS a 'hot button'

a hot-button also that too many so-called progressives on this board don't seem to think it's a problem. Sort of like the old belief that problems (ie child and spousal abuse) in a family are nobody else's business.

what exactly is the difference between my 'objectivity' and the 'objectivity' of people who think cultural sexism is acceptable? You think my view is opinion and theirs is fact?

[distantearlywarning]

178. Sorry, but that's not fair.

You've run out of arguments against her, so now you accuse Kineta of losing her objectivity? Yes, she obviously cares a lot about this topic. Deeply caring doesn't = wrong. And it doesn't = losing credibility.

[malaise]

150. The nuns who taught me didn't look

too different.

[Thickasabrick]

157. Awesome point.

[Catherine Vincent]

151. I hate the fact they have to dress that way.

It's a shame because the reason for that is because their men don't trust themselves seeing a woman's body.

How backwards is that?

[smirkymonkey]

159. It makes me think that Muslim men must be the weakest men in

the world. Imagine being so completely unable to control yourself that you had to force your women to wear such a get-up.

Also, I think all religious fundamentalists are idiots. Dangerous idiots.

[muriel_volestrangler]

172. Remember it's only a minority of Muslims who use it

While headscarves are more common, it's only a couple of cultures in the Muslim world that use a face veil. Whether headscarves are themselves a double standard is debatable, but at least they don't hide the human face.

[smirkymonkey]

176. True, I suppose I should have said radical muslim fundamental-

ist men. Thanks for the correction. :)

[Matariki]

161. Aussie cleric likens unveiled women to "uncovered meat."

I would like to direct your attention to THIS post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2490591

it's all about "tradition", huh?

[LeftHander]

162. And how does the black garb differ from the gobs of makeup?

And overtly sexually exploitive clothing and submissive behavior our popular culture and religions demand of western women..?

[ACK]

175. Because is it different! Muslim world its often the law. Both religious and legally.

We do not force women to dress in a certain manner or wear a certain type of makeup.

Society places pressure to do so but that is not the same.

You are making excuses.

Its opressive. And when woman here in America are pressured legally or through religious dogma to do the things you talk about I will be damn well against it here.

I have no right to ever tell that woman she cannot practice her religion and do what she wants.

But !!! I still don't have to believe its right because its not and its an oppressive example of a paternal society exerting its control over women.

[bluestateguy]

168. The difficult thing for us to come to terms with is this:

many people on the Left are reluctant to criticize non-Western cultures. They either think it's a racist, bigoted thing to do, or it's just not a priority for them, because they prefer to criticize Western culture instead. Many of aspects of Western culture DO deserve criticism, but we should not be afraid to criticize non-Western cultures when the criticisms are deserved.

[distantearlywarning]

188. I think this is the crux of it.

I was trying to think of a way to say this exact thing, but couldn't do it without being deeply offensive to some people here.

I posted upthread about how I have similar feelings about Mormon fundamentalism. When Jeffords was caught a month or so ago, there were several threads about fundamentalist communities in AZ and UT, and the role of women in those communities (very similar to how women are treated in fundamentalist Islam). I posted my feelings about those sects in those threads several times, and was never called a "cultural supremacist", told that I needed to mind my own business, or anything similar. In fact, I was praised by several people for my attitudes about how the men treated the women in that world.

I say pretty much the same things here about fundamentalist Islam (which sometimes *executes* women for breaking social norms), and the attitudes are completely different. Why?

Folks, I call it like I see it. Nobody gets a free pass on oppression with me, and I don't care who they are or what the color of their skin is or if G.W. likes them or if we are at war with them or if they live next door to me. If it's bad for western Mormon women, it's bad for middle eastern Islamic women and vice-versa. It's just bad.

And if you think that people should overlook human rights violations because "culture" is more important than stopping oppression, then you better think twice about posting negative comments in future threads about institutionalized racism in the American South, Christian fundamentalist rejection of gay Americans, any thread in the Lounge regarding the Christian fundamentalist viewpoint on the proper behavior of women, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the viewpoint that dissent is anti-American, and about a million other topics I can't even think of right now but come up every day on DU.

[HardRocker05]

235. yep; no "cultural tradition" is immune from rational criticism. nt

[smirkymonkey]

352. Good point.

It's the lockstep "progressive" idea that we must respect other cultures unless that other culture happens to be violating an ethical standard that is near and dear to our own heart (i.e., forcing women into second-class citizenship is OK, but whaling is not OK...etc.) is where the extreme left gets a reputation for being illogical and silly.

Some of us happen to believe human rights for ALL is more important than bullshit PC "cultural sensitivity."

[kerry-is-my-prez]

169. I think everyone has a prejudice of some kind. Mine is towards Republicans.

n/t

[YellowRubberDuckie]

170. I always smile and try to be friendly.

When I see a woman in a regular scarf with her head covered, the scarves are usually very beautiful, and I tell them so. And their kids are usually very well behaved, and I play peek a boo with them. I treat them like every other person I meet in the grocery store. :shrug: They don't know any different. Who am I to judge if they're happy or not? Some women like being taken care of and treated as they are. It's not my place to judge. It's no one's place to judge. I don't agree with the way they treat their women in their culture, but it's none of my business. If one of them were to ask me for help, I'd extend it to her, but unless she makes it my business, I won't stick my nose where it doesn't belong.
And that woman in the second picture has BEAUTIFUL eyes.
Duckie

[mdmc]

171. is there a way to transform your emotional response ?

Turn away from anger and toward compassion.

I see nobility in that Burka, similar to a Catholic nun.

[distantearlywarning]

180. Would you see nobility

in yellow stars and pink triangles?

Compassion is good. So is action. How about action and compassion?

[mdmc]

191. perhaps if my family and society had instilled those values

sure.

Actually, I find those get ups sexy, in a African tribe nudity (like in Nat. Geo. magazine) kinda way.

[WestSeattle2]

182. Any group of humans who subjugate other humans

are simply weak, fearful, reprehensible creatures. Racism has nothing to do with it. They can try to hide behind "history" or their bible all they want. Nothing they say or point to negates the fact that they are simply weak human beings who must dominate others in order to feel worthy.

[applegrove]

184. Any idea how old the burka is? The covering of all except eyes? Was

it mentioned in the Koran? Is it from the time of mohammed? Was it a rural thing or a palace thing? Is it polygamist in origin? I just realized I know nothing about it.

[Radio_Lady]

207. You might try this link from Smirky Monkey earlier in the day.

How many times does it have to be said..... this is not mandated by Islam, the religion, only certain extremist sects. This is cultural and it is based upon a backward, sexist, idiotic premise. Here - read about it for yourself:

http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/women/albani_niqab.htm

http://islamicweb.com/beliefs

Particularly interesting articles at:

http://islamicweb.com/index.asp?folder=beliefs

[Grebrook]

186. I dislike basically everyone religion in the world other than Catholicism and Judaism

Because Catholics and Jews seem to be the only people who don't go god damned overboard. But don't worry, I'm being sarcastic. I think they should drop the veils. They have a right to wear them if they want, and I'm certainly never going to heckle them for it or fear them. I just think it's silly. Most religious practices are silly, but the veil thing really is silly.

[ACK]

187. I am not prejudiced I can respect muslims and still know the burka is misogynistic

What I am not even allowed to have my own morals and beliefs?

I am just supposed to ignore all that and clap when people from another culture praise say female circumsicion performed in some African societies right?

Bullshit. That is a load of crap.

The burka is just a damn tool of a paternal society to keep women in their place there is no nobility in subjucation.

I can respect a culture and religion enough to understand it is not my place or role to tell someone else what to believe or do but at the same time know in my heart that what they are doing is wrong.

That shit ain't right and everyone here knows it.

[snot]

209. I'd find it easier to accept this or any other practice IF

it were imposed equally on men and women.

[mcg]

210. My reaction to the women from Saudi Arabia - compassion.

I consider this treatment to be human rights abuse
born of a cultish mentality. These people didn't freely
choose to live this way, they've been indoctrinated.
Of course, there are similar concerns in other cultures
as well.

[treestar]

214. It's hard not to conclude that they are more behind the times

than we are in this way - they are roughly at what for us might have been the Victorian age, though even there, women's faces were able to be shown.

Rather strange for the men: if they have a beautiful wife, the other men won't know it. Weird, but it relieves women somewhat from that kind of pressure. We have to worry about our appearance to a point where it is almost unhealthy. We have men who want to show off to other men. Weird that the Muslims who wear these don't seem to feel that need as to male competition.

One wonders what do they think will happen if women's faces are seen? Other men will run off with her?

[Hippo_Tron]

215. IMO, if she wants to do that it's fine, but no law in any country shold force her to

[pitohui]

216. you have a right to be against the oppression of women

that ain't racism, i've met women from saudi arabia who don't even wear a head scarf -- because they're in vegas or new orleans, it is a costume that they don when they travel to their homes because of the way life is and you have to go along to get along -- it is not a religious belief because, really, they know religion is just a story, they are just as intelligent and skeptical as you or i

long story short, my personal experience is that many women from middle east or indonesia come here to get away from that crap, one of our neighbors in the 70s was from a wealthy family in syria who ran from an abusive husband (broke her arm) and a family that couldn't understand her need for freedom, she wasn't just slumming, she willingly gave up wealth to be free, now i have an in-law from indonesia who, same thing, basically had to flee this anti-woman crap or she could not be who she was -- she couldn't be a woman getting an education just for "fun" (and i'll give these nations credit, they'll educate the women, they just won't let 'em work it), she wanted to do serious work

i don't think not wanting to see a woman imprisoned or oppressed is racism or bigotry, it's the call of like to like, you are a woman and you want to be free and you have sympathy in your heart

don't be so hard on yourself

[SlavesandBulldozers]

218. it's a conflict

between the etic and emic view.

notice that each side accuses the other of over-imposing their culture on them. there is no easy answer that concludes the argument in my opinion.

there are easy answers though, however unconclusive: who cares what other people wear as long as it isn't forced? (and the flipside) Take the silly mask off, youre in the west now.

In any event: typically its difficult to shake the first generation's ties to their particular cultural dogmas, religions, fashions, language etc which they bring from whence they come. the 2nd and 3rd generations quickly shed a lot of these things. by the 4th generation they are entirely assimilated.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

224. I do look down on certain aspects of certain religions.

Those elements which encourage and condone disrespect for other people serve no good purpose.

Would we excuse someone who would kill their child because their god "told" them to?
If someone kept slaves since the practice was condoned in the Old Testament, would we accept it?
No?

Then why should we accept the denigration of women in the name of somebody's god?

[pitohui]

226. because women don't matter

that's it in a nutshell

the most important story of the old testament is abraham being willing to sacrifice isaac, today, the person who sacrifices his child because god sed so is andrea yates and she's locked up

but this world doesn't quite consider women to be real people so it's quite ok to mistreat them, we're not really equal you see, that's all just humoring us because we do the shopping

[GoddessOfGuinness]

232. Sometimes women are the worst offenders...

I guess there's a comfort factor in clinging to the notions of womanhood that were handed down through the generations. There's no need to think for one's self, because all the thinking was done years ago.

It's scary to be your true self.

[Matariki]

284. Nutshell, indeed - how men treat "their" women isn't our business.

sheesh.

[frustrated_lefty]

239. I'm hesitant to speak with them because

I'm not sure what statements would be perceived as an offense.

I don't feel sorry for them. From a superficial view, the Muslim women I have encountered tend to be happier than their western counterparts.

[AlienGirl]

240. I tend to think that mode of dress looks very elegant, and that the men are acting deferential

A woman dressed in yards of material, preceded by a man who is carrying stuff, looks to me like a very high-status woman with a servant. Look how rich she is, she can afford all that cloth! Look how well the man serves her, walking in front in case there is danger, carrying her bags for her, and allowing her the privacy of her own thoughts instead of bothering her with idle chatter!

If this parses so differently to other Americans and me, even though we were raised in the same culture, how different might the interpretation be *between* cultures?

The government should neither mandate nor forbid any type of clothing, and should (obviously) prosecute any assault, including those motivated by someone thinking a woman should wear "black ghost" clothing. But it is a mistake to assume that just because you think something looks degrading through your cultural lens, it must feel degrading to the person doing it.

Tucker

[Poll_Blind]

312. I have been introduced to a number of very different cultures...

...in the last few years and it can be very difficult to recognize that one even has a cultural lens. Outside of the topic entirely, I appreciate your ability to describe a situation without that lens or how it would or could be viewed through another's lens.

  Outside of aspects of Orthodox Jewish or Islamic cultures, for instance, which can seem pretty "different", I have noticed that the lens as you put it, affects everything I view even though I'm not always consciously aware of it. Recently I have found myself dipped by the heels into Latino culture which also has it's share of differences and things which, when viewed through my cultural lens can seem strange, disorienting or even a little offensive.

  It's really tough to just pull off the spectacles, of course, but when I read your post for the first time last night I couldn't help but take a moment to recognize how difficult it can be to do such a thing, even when I consider myself "culturally competent" within a number of different cultures.

  There are a pretty fair number of responses in this thread which assume that the women are coerced into it and would, if given the choice, rather not wear the garment. Speaking of "cultural coercion", though, it's interesting that one group of people might consider it cultural coercion when they view a foreign group but not even thing about those things which they do, or do not do, in their own culture because of their own "cultural coercion".

  For a country which seems to have a collective problem with a women pulling out her breast to feed a baby in a public place, I'm sometimes not convinced we really are speaking from a position of authority when we judge the way other cultures do things.

Just a thought, and thanks for sharing that viewpoint,

PB

[bonito]

242. Religion is made by people who want to control

People, look-ie here Gods over here come and get you some, this is what you do...
In a world where people are viewed as a commodity some neglected, starved, others sent to kill or be killed no wonder people go looking for a higher power to put some sense in there lives, to save them, even got chaplains in the military one hand washes the other from their sins.
I'm not an atheist, but I got no religion.

[intheflow]

243. I have spoken with Muslim women who say they prefer this type of clothing.

When fully covered, they believe they are more liberated because men are forced to engage them as women, not as sexual objects. In other words, they feel free because they don't have to worry about measuring up to some kind of societal ideal of feminine beauty.

This isn't to say that the custom didn't arise out of sexist societies, or that it is a good thing for all women. I never talked with a woman wearing a burka who was living in and confined to a fundamentalist Muslim country. However, to impose a blanket assumption about a person's way of dressing based on our Western culture strikes me as just as dangerous as imposing Western democracy on another culture.

Personally, I think I could just as easily see this post without burkas but with the make-up masks that so many women feel they have to wear to be socially accepted in Western culture. Isn't that just a different kind of burka? A Western type of female enslavement?

[latebloomer]

248. Interesting point

In a burka, you don't have to worry that your thighs are too fat, or your neck is sagging. You're not judged or ogled for your physical appearance. There is a certain freedom in that, as compared to the way every woman in our culture feels she can never measure up to some perceived standard.

On the other hand, I too have a visceral reaction to the burka because it seems to be a symbol of oppression. Why should a woman have to cover herself in that way, and not a man? It goes along with many other ways women are denied the same rights as men-- eg., driving a car in Saudi Arabia.

[intheflow]

272. Yes, I have the same reaction to burkas.

But the longer I work in the field of anti-racism/anti-oppression, the more aware I become of the need to differentiate between my own perceptions, my own world view, and the world views of others. I can be respectful of feminists who think all porn should be banned, for instance, and also be respectful of women who believe that for some women engaging in porn can be empowering. Their lives have shaped their perceptions and experience, just as Arab women's lives have shaped their world view. Who is right? What is right? Am I right because I perceive the world through my white, educated, progressive, Western, female lens? More and more, that answer feels uncomfortably arrogant.

So on a gut emotional level, burkas do bug me. Still I have to remember that sometimes it isn't about me. :)

[LostinVA]

244. You're not prejudiced -- you are against seeing women subjugated

And, considering most of this isn't even part of Islam, you certainly aren't against their religion. However, I think it is okay to be against someone's religion and cultural if they hurt people within that cultural and religion... that's not accepting "multiculturalism," it's being a good protector of those who are the most vulnerable. FLDS making little girls marry, honor killings, burquas, etc.

No worries, RL -- you're one of the good "guys."

[Radio_Lady]

388. Thanks for your support, LostinVA. This thread has taken on a life of its own!

However, it's been a long time since I've been mistaken for a "guy"! :sarcasm:

[BoneDaddy]

246. The Liberal Dilemma

I have seen many posts about this issue and it comes down to two basic areas of conflict.

1. The battle of multiculturalism vs. common sense. Many liberals consider themselves "multicultural" and I think they may be way off the spectrum on this issue. Multiculturalism is good when it opens people to other ethnicities so that we may develop a common ground of understanding. But I think this gets carried way too far. Multiculturalism does NOT mean that we need to agree with or accept every single practice from another culture. Take this to an extreme: Female genital mutilation. From some people in here you would think that being multicultural means accepting such a barbaric practice. I think not.

2. Feminism vs. Islamic repression. The other point of conflict I see is really really interesting and often it is between two people who consider themselves both to be feminists. ON one hand, like the OP, there is outrage about the repressive, subordinate position of women in Islam vs. the feminists who say things like "how dare you tell a woman what to wear" referring to Islamic women who CHOOSE (really a choice?) to wear a hijab or other headwear.

[Matariki]

289. I see it very much in the same way as the ACLU defending the KKK

Freedom of Expression is a highly important value. I would defend the ku klux klan's RIGHT to say what they want, to get a protest permit like anyone else. But that doesn't mean I don't despise their message and everything they represent. That doesn't mean I wouldn't actively work to defeat any sort of racist legislature they tried to enact or press for very harsh shipment of actual hate crimes they committed. It's possible the have both those views at the same time.

[Lurking Dem]

250. I don't understand something.

Other cultures do things they have done for centuries that we don't like and we protest it/try to get international law changed/boycott, etc. Japanese, Icelandic, and Makah whaling have all been protested.

Why is whaling considered more abysmal than mistreatment of women? Why are women's rights not considered inherent? Why are liberals seemingly becoming so reactionary? When do cultural mores supercede human rights?

[Lurking Dem]

264. Anyone?

[smirkymonkey]

370. Don't hold your breath - when you pose a logical question,

it often goes unanswered because nobody can really offer a LOGICAL answer. You might get the usual relativist claptrap, but don't expect a direct answer to a perfectly sensible question. Sorry :shrug:

[wryter2000]

251. As a feminist

I dislike any image of a woman being subservient to anyone. However, this one isn't totally black and white. Many women who dress this way say they feel more comfortable in the veil. They may have been programmed to feel that way, but it's absolutely the case that no one is going to stare at their breasts or ass. In that sense, it can be liberating not to expose your body. Of course, if they're ordered to dress like that, that's quite another story.

I guess I'd rather work on other anti-woman aspects of the culture and allow the women to dress as they want.

[Swede]

252. I posted this anecdote awhile back.

A muslim family moved in next door. The women were all veiled,as a bunch of young men helped them move in. A couple of days later three gorgeous young middle eastern girls,make up,mini skirts, we're going clubbing,ladies jumped into their car and zoomed off.

[Radio_Lady]

257. Same girls, different day! Very interesting... thanks for sharing, Swede.

Do you think they were veiled because of the men who moved them in? Did you ever have a conversation with them about this event?

[Swede]

259. My impression is that the parents are renting this house for the girls as

they go to university. They are living in two different cultures and have obviously picked the one they prefer. I havn't had an oppurtunity to speak with them yet.

[InvisibleTouch]

255. I guess I would want to know how the women themselves feel...

...and that's a tricky question too, because if they've been raised their whole lives without an alternative, they may not even question it, and therefore they may be entirely comfortable. (I think this is your concern, Radio_Lady, about the fate of the young daughters.) At the same time, if they're living in or travelling in our country, they're exposed to alternatives since they see how things are in another culture. I guess I'd want to know whether the veiled women view us with longing and envy, or with relief that their culture is not like ours.

I haven't read all the responses in this thread, so I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but I noticed in the picture showing the lady's face/head, she's wearing eye makeup, and her eyes are very beautiful. That indicates she may feel good about herself, rather than feeling downtrodden. Truthfully, from a purely visual point of view, the shrouded black figure looks very mysterious and alluring, and there may be a certain silent power in that attire. I am female, btw, and I can see a certain beauty in it. I couldn't imagine being limited to wearing only this outfit in public every time, but that's because in our culture we use clothing and hairstyle to express our individuality - and looking the same as everyone else would negate such personal expression. I just don't know enough about the mindset of Islamic women, to be able to judge whether "personal expression" is even something they care about in public. Maybe it's far more important to have a positive influence on one's family.

The key, as usual for women, is education - the knowledge of alternatives, and the right to pursue them if they want to. It's a little bit like being raised in a fundie household, I imagine - if you've only ever learned one viewpoint, you may be content with your life, but you're definitely limited. If someone comes along and offers you other options, and assures you that you do have the right to make your own choices - only then can you be considered to be making a fully-informed decision. (Which is why I'm a big advocate of exposing kids to all sorts of spiritual traditions and worldviews, so they can choose what's right for them, or choose none, but have some knowledge of how others see the world, instead of being told by some authority that there's only one correct way.)

The other issue, to my mind, is dependency. Any time a woman is dependent upon a man for her survival (be that in Islamic cultures or in this country or any other), her choices are severely limited. She may want to pursue another path, but feels she can't. What options does she have, in Saudi Arabia, to survive on her own? Can she hold a job, live on her own, raise her children? Even if she could, would she be ostracized from her family? If women are empowered to make their way on their own, then they can truly make their own choices. They can say to their husbands, "I can choose to stay with you if I want to, but I don't need you for my survival." That alone will bring about much more respect for the woman as an individual, rather than something to be taken for granted because she has no other choice.

[Spinoza]

260. On the one hand,

every human being should have the right to dress any way they wish. (So long as they "don't frighten the horses.") On the other hand, it is hard to believe that--without intimidation or indoctrination--large numbers of women would actually CHOSE to wear the equivalent of a Bee keepers (in Maher's phrase) protective garb and never be able to even feel the sun on their face when they are outdoors in public. Never be able to communicate by a frown or a smile.

And the idea that hundreds of thousands of women actually LIKE wearing garb that HAS to be almost unbearable in 100 degree + heat, such as is common in many Middle Eastern countries, is preposterous. Who LIKES being completely confined in garments wnen it is so hot it feels like a furnace? Certainly we don't see any MEN ever chosing to dress in such fashion. Why only women?

And even when we hear muslim women proclaiming how much they love being covered from head to toe, how do we know they are not speaking out of fear? Why are we sure that this is their real feeling? Based on the large number of 'shame' killings of women and rapes in some traditional Islamic countries doesn't it seem likely that many of these women have fathers, or husbands, or brothers or uncles who they are afraid of? Who would harm them if they don't say the 'right' words in public?

The pictures shown, and the reality they depict, make me want to cry in fury and compassion. TALK ABOUT VICTIMS!

[MacDo]

262. I've always

wanted to ask them how they felt about this. Unfortunately, talking to women here in Iraq is all but forbidden.

[Evoman]

265. Burkas are stupid.

Am I prejudiced against muslim people...no. Do I hate their religion and think its stupid, yes. But then, I hate all religions and think they are all stupid, so don't flame me on that account.

I think that one of the best, and one of the worst, things about us liberals is our fear of being ethnocentric. We don't like to criticize other cultures, because we don't want to seem superior...like we are better than other cultures.

But you know what? We are. A culture where homosexuality is illegal is bad. A culture where women are indoctrinated to WANT to wear a beekeeper suit is bad. A culture where you may get acid thrown in your face because your too alluring, or said no to some man, is BAD.

Are there redeeeming features of every culture? Probably. Its also important to note some muslem countries are more progressive than others, so they definitely aren't some monolithic culture. And its not like western culture is criticism free...god no. But something we do right, in my opinion, is at least make pretenses that everyone is equal and free (although in practice, sometimes things aren't so equal).

One of my unique preferences would be that children should be free to choose or reject religion, although not many people truly share it. Children can be led to believe anything....72 virgins await you if you blow yourself up, burkas are good, Jesus came to North America, your going to live forever.
You can't really be free with that shit being forced into your brain. Parents should refrain from talking about religion unless asked directly, and should let the child make up his own mind. Lol..not that it would really happen.

The thing that makes me feel better is that any children these people in the OP have, will have to go to school. There almost no way that any daughter this couple has will wear a burka, "Mom, none of my friends has to wear a beekeeper suit.". I have a close muslem friend who has basically done just that...her parents want to take her to Pakistan so she will meet someone to marry. She absolutely refuses, does not wear a veil (lol..shes obsessed with her hair..it is kind of nice though), and irks her parents often by not being married (shes 26 and still single..what a travesty!!).

So flame away..haha. I'm just waiting for some very passionate responses.

[MamaBear]

266. Radio_Lady ...

Thank you for posting this. I live in New York City, and this is an everyday sight: a man in a tank top and shorts and flip-flops, a young boy similarly dressed, and a woman draped from chin to toes with a scarf covering her head ... in the middle of August.

I try to understand, but I have a very hard time.

For me the ironic note is that I may be almost as completely covered as the woman, although I'll probably be wearing slacks. I'm not into showing a lot of skin to the sun and I often wear a hat, even if it is a baseball cap. Except it's my choice to dress so, and has nothing to do with whether or not the sight of my ankles might *excite* anybody.

The people who decided that the deity was unitary and masculine and enforced their view more by the sword than by gentler persuasion were the true openers of pandora's box; they loosed the evils of sexism on society and we can't seem to figure out how to deal with it.

In short, I'm very torn between a visceral hatred of the way women are portrayed in *holy* (jeez!) writ and the societies based thereon, and wanting to live and let live.

[Radio_Lady]

299. MamaBear --- I like your writing style and completely agree with you.

Excellent post.

You said, "I'm very torn between a visceral hatred of the way women are portrayed in *holy* (jeez!) writ and the societies based thereon, and wanting to live and let live."

My husband and I have the same feeling about organized religion as a whole. How much pain and death and other terrible flaws are exacerbated by religion, instead of being cured by it.

You would just have to substitute the word "people" to include men in this discussion.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Geek_Girl]

276. The Good news is if these folks are American immigrants

the children and grand children will probably drop these restrictive traditions. My father was born in Puerto Rico and I don't even speak spanish. My Great Grand parents on my mother's side were immigrants from italy. Both families were heavily catholic. I stopped going to church when I was 17. Don't worry about the children. If they grow up in the states they will most likely not be dressing this way when they are adults.

[Radio_Lady]

301. They were in an airport in Texas. Goodness knows they might be

immigrants, Americans, or just two people living out their brief lives -- who were in transit to their unknown destination.

I have no idea. But I will remember this conversation with all of you... Geek_Girl, thanks for your contribution. I am an American, and so is my husband. Often, when going to other countries, I think about what I might have been had I not been born Jewish. Our four grandparents were immigrants from Russia, Hungary, Rumania and Czechoslovakia. My husband's father was born in Russia, but he never wanted to go back. "They threw me out in the progroms... I'm an American now," he used to say. Yet he continued to speak Yiddish and Russian, and he learned to speak English when he got here.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[mondo joe]

281. I'm pro-choice. On abortion, on veils, on drugs.

I'm pro choice.

[Chomp]

292. The sanctamonious

tone of liberals sometimes is absolutely nauseating.

These veils are an insult to human dignity. I don't give a stuff about protecting any religion's bizarre atavistic rituals. Why the hell should that concern me? I am more concerned about the damage done to secular western liberalism by such overt displays of religious separation.

A jewish scullcap? A muslim head veil? A christian cross around the neck? All perfectly subtle signs of religious devotion and fine by me.

But women fully covered for the express purpose of ptotecting her from men and protecting men from themselves is just absolutely repugnant to every fibre of my being.

The more politically correct can label that intolerance if they wish. So be it. Maybe this is a clash of civilisations - and if it is I know which side I'm on.

[mdmc]

302. Do you feel the same way about Catholic Nuns?

They also willingly wear similar get-ups.

With all due respect, we have tons of injustices right in our own backyard; lets deal with our own and let other civs. deal with their problems.

Eventually, we will all be wearing the same star trek uniforms in the future, right?

peace and low stress,,,

[Radio_Lady]

303. So do we end where we began? Some people think I should fight

my feelings; others think I should embrace them, but not impose them on others.

It's a hard row to hoe -- because I've been talking about sensitive issues for years on the radio. Abortion, gun control, bussing to achieve racial balance, capital punishment, sexuality, religions of the world and the eternal dance of politics. When conversing with others, I always try to let people have their say, because that's the more civilized way to go.

Sex, religion, politics. These incendiary topics create flashes of insight and understanding, as well as the worst of conflicts in cultures around the world. I wish we could remember the words to that song, "It's A Small World, After All" and really be able to embrace it.

I wish you peace for the weekend. Stay calm. It's almost Election Day. We live in difficult times, but I am cautiously optimistic things will improve.

Good night and good luck.

Radio_Lady

[mondo joe]

307. Do people have the right to "insult" their own human dignity?

I think they do.

[spoony]

320. No no no, we must FORCE our idea of freedom upon them

And let them know that they will accept our standards or else! I mean, it's worked so well in the last five years, with those bustling democracies we've set up. :sarcasm:

[XemaSab]

304. I wouldn't call it prejudice.

If you said "think of a Saudi woman" and I instantly thought of a woman in a burka observing purdah, THAT would be prejudiced.

But if you show a picture of a woman in a burka and describe how a woman similarly dressed was treated, then that's reaching a logical conclusion based on facts:

The woman is oppressed.

Purdah taken to that extent is bullshit, and is an outgrowth of a deeply sexist society where men can't be trusted not to molest women who give them an inch.

[FlaGranny]

310. My opinion on this,although

I have not read the complete thread and someone else may have said this, is this. Those people who posted on this thread that some women may like to wear these "shrouds" just need to stop and think for a minute about what happens to these woman when they become widowed and are forced into begging on the street and being beaten by any many who happens to walk by and who feels like it just because she is outside alone. If she sits down she must be careful that even her black stockinged ankle does not show or she could be beaten. If the slit in the fabric she peers through shows too much of her face, she could be beaten. I wonder how it feels to be a little girl, running and playing with your sisters and brothers and friends one day, and to be told the next day that she must cover up and ever after be invisible. These girls and women must just love their "shrouds."

[Sinti]

313. This "cultural garb" is not nearly as simple as it looks from the outside

In America the women you are referring to may only wear this type of garb in very public places, the airport, the museum, places where they will come in contact with a lot of strange people. It makes them more comfortable. They don't fear their husbands, they fear your husbands. At home, or in the company of friends they may be and dress very differently, they may behave very differently also. In other words, some Arab husbands may dote on their wives in the home, their wives may be quite bossy, while outside the home and not among friends she may walk three steps behind him, and behave in a subservient manner. I know this to be true from personal experience.

Keep in mind, some of these Saudi women look down on Western women. They see us as being beneath them, as slaves to the desires of men with our scanty clothing, surgical improvements, and "obscene" gestures, all done to please the male sex drive. Irony, yes? :)

That said, this "choice" thing people are talking about here does not always exist. What if the choice means being homeless? What if the choice means being sent back to SA because your husband no longer wants you? The "choice" may be a choice to be beaten, have your children taken from you, disowned by your family, and so on. For some it's a choice, certainly not for all, even here in America.

Her children, if they live here, are not guaranteed to be educated in American schools. We have separate Saudi private schools here, at least we did in Virginia. As a society we accept that, just as we accept home schooling and religious education for Christian fundamentalists.

The problem is there are much bigger fish to fry. When it comes to the Saudi "culture" perhaps we should first deal with the fact that they still have slavery there, or their practice of public beheadings, then deal with the rights of women. It may seem cold, but it's kind of like doing triage. You have to start somewhere, and it's generally with the worst cases you've got.

[Cleita]

353. Excellent points and well said.

The part where Saudi women look down on Americans for being slaves to the desires of men rings true to me, although I know that most American women dress for themselves and other women in competition to gaining the notice of the men.

When I live in South America, I ran across a similar sentiment. Women there felt the American women were too masculine in their looks and behavior, too loudmouthed in public and to willing to berate their husbands in public. There was a certain pride in emphasizing their feminity, not downplaying it even though in many countries women have fewer rights than women in America.

[Dora]

369. Thank you for an illuminating response. n/t

[casus belli]

386. Wow, great post!

Alot of food for thought there. Thanks for the lucid response.

[rucky]

316. You can disapprove of the action without hating the people.

they really truly think they're doing what Allah told them to. What we have to do is have a real discussion on the interpretation of holy scripture, and - as a rule of thumb - insist that the law protect the least restrictive interpretation. That doesn't mean that women or families shouldn't be allowed to worship freely, but the law should protect women who are not consenting to how they are being treated. I say this because we can't assume the Saudi women are not okay with this.

[Arugula Latte]

328. I'm not prejudice against the women -- but that "tradition" does make me sick

The message is that women are nothing but chattel. The men don't trust men to control themselves, so the women get to suffer. Can you imagine wearing a full-length black burka in 105 degrees Farenheit?

Again, religious insanity at work.

[morgan2]

336. theres nothing wrong with looking down on someones religion

religion inherently ridiculous. One one needs to have 'faith' because it goes against common sense.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

343. I sympathize with your reaction.

However, I'm just wondering if there isn't another relationship you're ignoring here. You see the burka as only emblematic of the spousal relationship (which it is, no doubt). But, I wonder, what if this is also an expression of her devout relationship to Allah? Now it just becomes a question of will/coercion. Is she being forced to wear this, or has she willfully submitted her will to Allah (or even to her husband)? I don't know the woman in the picture, so I cannot say. I know that this idea of submitting one's will to another (God or human) may be anathema in a democratized US, but it is not throughout the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian world.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

365. I believe you had a prejudiced reaction.

Which would be natural. You also seem to be giving it a lot of thought and concern, which is admirable.

I'd suggest actually getting to know some muslims.

[Radio_Lady]

389. Well, one of our best friends is Arab, but he is a Christian.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't come into contact with any Muslims. They have their own school here and don't attend any of the public schools my granddaughter attends.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

372. Looking down on a religion is *nothing* to do with racism.

A religion is a set of ideas, including ideas about morality. Looking down on someone, or disliking them, because of their views on what forms of behaviour are and aren't moral is perfectly justifiable, and nothing to do with racism.

Anyone who doesn't "look down on" (for some value of "look down on") most forms of Islam (and to a lesser extent of most other religions), is either not a liberal or a hypocrite, because the ideas about what forms of behaviour are and aren't moral propounded by most forms of Islam are deeply illiberal.

N.B. The "most forms of" is important - there *are* variations on the theme of Islam that aren't illiberal, but their practitioners are massively outnumbered by the others.

[NuttyFluffers]

376. reminds me of childhood and sweet memories

Saudi Arabia is a country with serious issues, let's just get that out there right off the bat. and USA and other countries that don't have state sanctioned fashion police -- which Saudi does have in the religious police -- i find no problem expressing fashion and culture however they please as long as it doesn't invade where someone else's nose begins.

but if you asked me what it brings to mind emotionally, well, the sweet years of my youth. i remember kind ladies, the occassional sarcastic crone, defiant bargainers at the market, and calculating matriachs ordering an extended family. i remember soft eyes lined with khol, rough hands ladened with gold bracelets, and guttural speech intersperced with rolling laughter of everyday pedestrians. i see, since i was a child, some of the more modern women getting away with not covering when on a bus filled with other women and children, and talking up a storm; friendship, camraderie, hand gesticulation, smiling eyes. and, once among the general populace, see how you can still see all of this still alive underneath the veil -- if you retained the eyes of a child to observe. it becomes more private the conversation, the hand gestures under the veil become for immediate conversants' eyes only, the smiling eyes a give-away but the conversation more private, possibly even intimate, because not everyone can eavesdrop. you see the shift of silly daddies' eyes from being lusting over every western blonde that passes their way to respectful and direct to a married woman who displays her status by cutting off his nonsense with the veil.

as a child i was privileged to see muslim women, in perhaps the most oppressive nation for civil rights, live wholly human lives. granted it was as best they could within the state's framework, but it was whole lives. if they were enslaved and miserable each and every hour of their lives it didn't show in their behavior, especially not when they felt comfortable in rather private moments. in retrospect it is almost far too different to equate USA and Saudi Arabia in any analogy. as i'm older i can see where women didn't have as many rights or freedoms. but then, i can also look at america and its various cultural regions, and see where women here do not have certain rights and freedoms, too. the interesting difference is de facto and de jure implementation. in fact, you can see where there is different, sometimes almost complementary, rights and freedoms absent in one but present in another. one could say a cultural relativism is present because you see where certain values are accentuated in one world view, but not another.

no, i don't see women who wear the abaya as helpless oppressed belles tied to the train tracks of a patriarchy gone mad. they were some of the most feisty and spirited women i remember in my youth -- they just got things done differently because they adapted to how the game of life was played there. i may not like the religious police and their fashion dictates in those countries, but when a woman willingly chooses the veil for herself i don't see her as imprisoned by male patronism. in fact, because of my experience as a child, i can't.

[mdmc]

377. thanks for posting

:kick: I enjoyed reading your opinion.

[Iris]

381. I always have to wonder if people who get this worked up

about these garbs also get worked up over seeing very young women tricked out for all the males - young, old, fat, skinny, whatever - to ogle thanks to OUR culture.

I get a little creeped out when I see someone dressed like this, but I don't think this culture has some kind of moral high ground when it comes to the way we treat women, especially young women.

[casus belli]

385. Interesting point

I think the only difficulty I have is in what is appropriate communication. I am generally a friendly person, and enjoy meeting and talking to different people. So my first instinct when running into someone or if eye contact is inadvertently made with a stranger is to say hello, and maybe make a moment or two of small talk if they seem receptive. I have to turn that instinct off, in cases like this however, because I'm not sure how that communication will be interpreted, or whether it would be considered inappropriate or unwelcome.

[ItNerd4life]

383. From day one they are indoctrinated into this lifestyle

and so for them it is considered normal. However, I agree with you. If a lifestyle of subservience is considered acceptable, then it's wrong.

Some cultures believe slavery is fine, doesn't make it so.
Some cultures believe cannibalism is fine, doesn't make it so.
Some cultures believed blacks were inferior, doesn't make it so.
Their culture believes women are inferior, doesn't make it so.

[Radio_Lady]

391. Well put, ItNerd4Life. Welcome to the DU!

Happy to make your acquaintance!

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[casus belli]

384. You could say the same about the Amish, doesn't mean it's accurate

Just because it is inconceivable to many of us that a woman could be happy in such a role, doesn't mean that that is the reality. The Amish, for example, must CHOOSE to accept the Amish ways when they become adults. It isn't cast upon them, they have a choice in the matter. And the gender roles in old order Amish communities are very clearly defined, and aren't particularly fair to the women in the community. If she believes it is her duty or her religious calling to accept a particular lifestyle, or specific gender roles then I think we owe her our non-judgement. IF however, it turns out that she is living such a lifestyle against her will, then that is ENTIRELY a different matter. Without knowing all of the particulars of her individual situation, I think it is unfair and inappropriate for you to judge her, or the man, on a life they very likely have willingly chosen for themselves.

As an aside, there are alot of women who have taken a particularly snooty tone about my wife's decision to stay at home and raise our children. While this was a choice my wife willingly made, and one I never would have asked of her, there are a small group of over-reaching women that she communicates with who have decided that she is a "victim" of stereotypical gender roles. For most rational people, that is obviously a ridiculous stance, but the reality is that some people have a really hard time understanding the decisions of others. That lack of understanding is not always, however, an excuse to pass judgement.

[Radio_Lady]

392. Casus Belli, you make an interesting point. I have been rejecting of

my own daughter who clearly wanted more of a life with her two children than I was ever able to accomplish with mine. (Problems of income started when I was essentially abandoned by my ex-husband with two kids, ages 1 and 2, and the family dog, as well.) I had to strike out on my own due to those circumstances and leave the kids in daycare. Although the road was tough, I survived pretty well.

At its heart, I was worried when she said she just wanted to stay home and raise her children. My daughter is a well educated woman with an M.B.A. from Brandeis University, and I felt she was not being true to herself. Furthermore, as they used to say, she was one heart attack (her doctor husband's, God forbid) away from being on welfare.

The whole thing took care of itself when she started a home-based business. She works very hard, and although the income is not as great as anticipated, she does enjoy what she is doing right now. The children are now five and eight, and they will be in full-time public school next year.

In peace,

Radio_Lady