Is gay discrimination 100% comparable to discrimination against blacks?

[ecstatic]

A lot of time I see comparisons between the civil rights movement of the 60s that was geared mainly towards securing equal rights for African Americans and the fight for gay rights? Are the two comparable?

[keepCAblue]

1. The fact that you are posing this question

suggests you have doubts about civil rights for gays being as valid or as important as they are/were for blacks. I'm sorry to see this poll on DU.

[ecstatic]

2. Posing question because of all the posts up today

Regarding blacks in the democratic party.

[Ellis Wyatt]

4. sorrier

that it's 50/50 saying that there are differences between the two.

"civil rights" has a very clear definition and it means that EVERYONE HAS THE SAME RIGHTS. While the struggle and open, violent, hate-filed discrimination may have been more extreme against blacks, there is absolutely no difference in the fact that the problem of inequality is equivalent.

[Hosnon]

5. Not necessarily. It could be the reverse. Or the OP could be curious

as to the validity of the comparison.

[HuffleClaw]

97. hear hear

i'm not impressed either.

[LostinVA]

120. Ditto

[Hosnon]

3. Not to nitpick but they are not 100% comparable. If they were, they wouldn't

be two different issues.

They'd be the exact same thing.

Are they highly similar? To me, yes.

[WCGreen]

6. Back in the day, and I remember the day, blacks had almost

no civil rights...

They were starting from groud zero and working up to some semblance of equality...

I don't even get the comparison...

[zreosumgame]

20. well, there is a bit of difference

as to what you call 'ground zero'. In effect all blacks were 'out' so there normally was no question of who they are (except those called 'pinkies', and they had their own special problems). Now as to 'gay' that was/is normally a secret so non-homosexuals take it upon themselves to concoct stories and behaviors they ascribe to 'gays' and then when someone is identified as 'queer' (leaving aside the question of if they really are or if that is just being used as a excuse to beat or kill someon, anyone) they react 999% to the stories they made-up.

That is why i voted other, mainly because non-'gays' can surprise you, but being black is no surprise to anyone, so the bigotry against 'gays' seems worse to me.

[WCGreen]

22. Well, when they start attacking Gay Pride parades with

water cannons...

And start regularly lynching gay people...

And when they charge gay folks to vote...

And when they won't let gay folks eat at the same lunch counter, walk through an open door, sleep in a hotel room of their choice, have any kind of career worth having, live where ever they want to, go to school pretty much where ever they want to....

Then you might be able to compare the struggle that African Americans had to endure just to get to where they are today...

Don't get me wrong, I fully in support of Civil Unions for gay folks, every person of age deserves the full protection of the constitution as well as the same legal status as all...

as to the middle part of your post, I really don't understand what you are trying to say...

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sapphire Blue]

32. Perhaps you should read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[zreosumgame]

67. Yes, history is hard

and many of the truths of it are ugly. But running away from the truth is, at best, a short-term answer. it is better IMHO for people to know what they are really saying then to paper it over and pretend it is in a vacum.

[mondo joe]

50. You want to do a one on one comparison?

When they start having black parents kick their kids out of their homes because they're black...

And when it's legal to fire or evict a black person just because...

And when blacks can't marry each other or even see their dying partner in the hospital...

And when judges remove black children from their parents' home for no reason other than they are black...

Different struggles, but at the core the same thing: civil rights.

[blondeatlast]

53. Great analogy. The abuses are different, but the motivation really isn't.

"Those people" aren't like "us," so let's keep them "in their place."

My straight happy marriage is just fine even though I have several gay friends, both monogamous and not-so-monogamous.

And on at least two levels, I have an untraditional marriage, so when do they come for me?

[skypilot]

71. Thank you for posting this.

Quite frankly, as a black, gay man it annoys me that we even have to have this discussion. No oppressed groups' experience is exactly, 100% the same as anothers. I don't think we should have to draw up some kind of checklist of atrocities and indignities and see whose list is longer but it often seems to me that that is what some people, in their way, are doing. A few weeks ago here in Philly there was some kind of meeting between parents and school officials to discuss the issue of the harrassment of gay students. A teenaged African-American girl who is a lesbian stood up to talk about her experience and was shouted at and heckled by a room full of predominantly black ADULTS. A child being shouted at and heckled by adults, remind anyone of anything?

[Bluebear]

101. Bravo. nt

[readmoreoften]

168. Until Stonewall-- and after-- cops regularly rounded up gays

and lesbians to beat and rape them. My partner has been escorted out of RESTROOMS BY SECURITY GUARDS because other women were nervous about her gender.

Before you spout off about how being gay is such a cake walk, why don't you study some gay history.

What about women? Are their struggles minimized by the black experience in America as well?

[Igel]

78. Not quite all, but certainly the vast majority.

Moreover, they were practicing.

[madmusic]

7. MR. CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN delivered the opinion of the Court.

This case presents a constitutional question never addressed by this Court: whether a statutory scheme adopted by the State of Virginia to prevent marriages between persons solely on the basis of racial classifications violates the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. 1 For reasons which seem to us to reflect the central meaning of those constitutional commands, we conclude that these statutes cannot stand consistently with the Fourteenth Amendment.

In June 1958, two residents of Virginia, Mildred Jeter, a Negro woman, and Richard Loving, a white man, were married in the District of Columbia pursuant to its laws. Shortly after their marriage, the Lovings returned to Virginia and established their marital abode in Caroline County. At the October Term, 1958, of the Circuit Court <388 U.S. 1, 3> of Caroline County, a grand jury issued an indictment charging the Lovings with violating Virginia's ban on interracial marriages. On January 6, 1959, the Lovings pleaded guilty to the charge and were sentenced to one year in jail; however, the trial judge suspended the sentence for a period of 25 years on the condition that the Lovings leave the State and not return to Virginia together for 25 years. He stated in an opinion that:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

After their convictions, the Lovings took up residence in the District of Columbia. On November 6, 1963, they filed a motion in the state trial court to vacate the judgment and set aside the sentence on the ground that the statutes which they had violated were repugnant to the Fourteenth Amendment. The motion not having been decided by October 28, 1964, the Lovings instituted a class action in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia requesting that a three-judge court be convened to declare the Virginia antimiscegenation statutes unconstitutional and to enjoin state officials from enforcing their convictions. On January 22, 1965, the state trial judge denied the motion to vacate the sentences, and the Lovings perfected an appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeals of Virginia. On February 11, 1965, the three-judge District Court continued the case to allow the Lovings to present their constitutional claims to the highest state court.

more: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1"> LOVING v. VIRGINIA, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)

[readmoreoften]

8. Of course they are not the same issue. But not all gays are white.

No two issues are identical. There are some parallels. There are some LARGE differences. The problem is that many conservatives (dems and republicans) say that the fight for African-American rights is the fight of wrongs done to a noble people. The fight for gay rights is "enlightened" tolerance for rich white perverts. That is the Rovian frame the debate.

The issue is complicated. And African-Americans are gay at about the same rate as white Americans and everyone else. For African-American gays, the fight is often a complete continuation. The two issues are not parallel, but it disservices Blacks and Gays when you pit us against one another.

This is not a cage match of the oppressions.

[Thickasabrick]

9. I know several black people who get extremely upset when the

two are grouped together. But then, they also get upset when people equate illegal immigrants to the black civil rights movement.

Not being black, gay or an illegal immigrant - it makes it tough to form an opinion. Jewish people get upset when people equate other genocides to the Holocaust.

Why is it so important to link the struggles together?

[ecstatic]

13. This is why I'm uncomfortable with pairing the two struggles

And I only bring this up because so many posts today are substituting the word "black" for "gay" to get a reaction.

First off, in this country, a nonwhite person will be quickly prejudged based on the color of his/her skin (most of the time).

Nonwhites do not have the option of simply not revealing their race--it is immediately noticeable (in most cases). Therefore, racial minorities face a different set of challenges in every aspect of American life--from equal education, to securing home loans, to getting employment, equal pay, etc.

On the other hand, a gay person has the option of whether or not to reveal his or her sexual orientation (in most cases). I haven't heard of any cases where gays are automatically cheated by lenders and what not. Or automatically charged a higher price when purchasing a vehicle. This is why a lot of African Americans take offense when some gays and/or Jewish people (who in many cases might look just as caucasian as a non-Jewish person) claim to face the same discrimination. One of the biggest issues faced by gay americans is the right to marry. Well I'm sorry, it's just not the same.

[Thickasabrick]

24. You've made some excellent points which gave me a

different perspective in thinking about this issue. Hispanic people; whether they be illegal or otherwise, are subjected to very similar discrimination - again, based on appearances.

On the other hand, unless a gay person stays in the closet he or she is often subjected to discrimination and even hate crimes. By revealing that he or she is gay - does that make the struggle or discrimination less significant?

There are many differences but also many similarities.

[readmoreoften]

161. Wow, why are you buying into total ignorance about GLBT people.

Do you think people don't know we're gay when we walk down the street? My girlfriend has been thrown out of women's bathrooms for "appearing too gay." I've had bottles and epithets thrown at me from cars. I've had friends beaten into the hospital by strangers who passed them on the street and were "disgusted."

You want a new "perspective"??? Imagine what it's like being an illegal immigrant who is also a lesbian, or a gay persian who is afraid of being deported back to Iran (where they execute you if you're gay.)

[keepCAblue]

33. How ridiculous.

Gays have a LONG history of being FORCED to hide their orientation, for fear of getting beat up, arrested, laughed at or shunned. So what if you haven't heard of cases of gays getting treated differently by lenders or being over-charged when buying a car? Because YOU haven't heard of these cases means they don't happen? Trust me, there are countless cases of gays getting refused for services or renting or lodging or, or, or ....hell, I could reel off a very long list of different cases--which you also probably haven't heard about.

And what about cases you HAVE heard about? Cases like Matthew Shepard. Or Brandon Teena. Or...well, here are a couple lists of a whole lot of people you've never heard about -- gays and transgenders who've been murdered simply for being, well, gay or transgendered:

Gays & Lesbians murdered in the U.S. from 1992-1994

Remembering Our Dead

Yes, you're right. The only "big" issue faced by gays is the right to marry. Issues like the right to dignity; the right to first-class citizenship; the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; the right to live free from fear; and in the cases of the thousands--yes, thousands--who've been murdered for being gay or trans, the right to LIVE ... well, those aren't very big issues at all.

[LostinVA]

123. Ugh -- sickening comment

"On the other hand, a gay person has the option of whether or not to reveal his or her sexual orientation (in most cases). I haven't heard of any cases where gays are automatically cheated by lenders and what not. Or automatically charged a higher price when purchasing a vehicle. This is why a lot of African Americans take offense when some gays and/or Jewish people (who in many cases might look just as caucasian as a non-Jewish person) claim to face the same discrimination. One of the biggest issues faced by gay americans is the right to marry. Well I'm sorry, it's just not the same."


Unbelievable you have the NERVE to spit on us like that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

138. Tell Matthew Shepherd one of his biggest issues was the right to marry.

"Matthew was lured from a campus bar shortly after midnight on October 7 by
two men (Aaron McKinney, 22 and Arthur Henderson, 21) who told him they
were gay. He was driven to a remote area near the Sherman Hills neighborhood
east of Laramie, tied to a split-rail fence, tortured, beaten and pistol-whipped
by his attackers, while he begged for his life. He was then left for dead in near
freezing temperatures. A cyclist who found him on Snowy Mountain View
Road at 6:22 pm, some 18 hours after the attack, at first mistook him for a
scarecrow. He was unconscious and suffering from hypothermia. His face
was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears.

Matthew died at 12:53 am on Monday 12th October 1998, at Poudre Valley
Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado, with his family at his bedside. Hospital
officials said Matthew had a fracture from behind his head to just in front
of his right ear and a massive brain stem injury which affected his vital signs,
including his heart beat, body temperature and other involuntary functions.
There were also approximately a dozen small lacerations around his head, face
and neck. He was so badly injured in the attack that doctors were unable to
operate. He never regained consciousness after being found, and remained
on full life support."
http://www.matthewsplace.com/mattslife.htm

[readmoreoften]

152. Yes, and no one knows you're gay until you announce it to the world.

SURE. Apparently, you don't know gay people. My girlfriend has gotten bashed just walking down the street. The "right to marry" was the last issue on our list. We can still be fired for being gay. The Employment Non-Discrimination Act never passed. And, by the way, GAY doesn't equal WHITE. There are as many African-American gays, percentage-wise, as there are white gays. When you give a pass to African-American homophobia, you give a pass to homophobia against African-American gays.

The problem being GLBT in America isn't that the same as being African-American in America, but I get offended when people TRIVIALIZE our deaths and our struggle because it isn't "as important". Tell that to all the GBLT people who get beaten and raped every year. Tell that to feminine African-American gay men forced into extreme poverty because they are BLACK and GAY and GENDER VARIANT.

Whatever. Sometimes I think straight people live in a bubble.

[Beausoir]

44. Wow. Very good post. And a very good question you posed.

That's why I like DU...you made me think.

[ikojo]

46. I'm Jewish and I get tired of Jews thinking

they have the moral high ground on account of the Shoah. The way I hear some refer to Arab Americans and such makes my skin crawl.

[cali]

73. Well, I'm not Jewish

but I'm aware that Jews have been in the forefront of efforts to STOP other genocides. Elie Wiesel has frequently compared Rwanda and Darfur to the Holocaust. In addition, it's hardly only some Jews who make disgusting remarks about Arabs and Arab Americans. I suggest you click on any Freeper thread about Arabs and you'll find repulsive, bigoted comments abound. Your broad brush about Jews is just sad.

[jonnyblitz]

165. damn, stating that "some" jews hold this view is hardly painting

with a broad brush. I have seen quite a few pretty racist comments made by jews and pro Israel types even here at DU, many have since been banned and have started their own DU bashing site even. I am sure Ikojo, who is jewish, appreciates being lectured by a non jewish condescending person such as yourself on this matter.unbelievable.

[ikojo]

175. Thanks Jonnyblitz...I know of where I speak

Just last Friday evening I had shabbos dinner with some friends who are more to the right than am I, and heard some awful things about arabs and islam.

[blondeatlast]

10. Civil Rights for minorities were a tough cut of meat for many before

they became a social norm.

Blacks weren't considered "worthy" of full civil rights; can someone explain how that is any difference here?

Comparable? No.

Exactly the same? Absolutely, IMHO.

[Solly Mack]

11. Human rights are human rights. You either support them or you don't.

You either believe in the Constitution or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose who qualifies under the 14th amendment for equal protection of the law. And neither does your God.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[William769]

12. Other.

discrimination is discrimination. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

14. They differ in the details and certain aspects, but civil rights are civil rights.

And both groups have been denied legal equality.

[Katzenjammer]

84. Exactly. Martin knew that all denial of rights are the same denial

no matter whose ox is being gored.

[trof]

15. Blacks that I know resent the intrusion of gays

as claimants in the battle for civil rights.

Most of them are hard rock, bible believing, "homosexuals are an abomination to God" people.
Our local, little Democrat organization (pretty much all white) has elected to overlook their position on gays in our attempt to get us ALL registered to vote and ALL out to the polls in November.

They think that gays are 'stealing their thunder' and trying to move in and opt into a movement that is exclusively theirs.

OK. I got my Nomex underwear on.
Flame away.

[Lex]

18. It's true. I see that too. It's sad to see.

Religion was also used as a tool by southern whites to keep African Americans "in their place" back before the sixties.

I don't understand why some African Americans would turn right around and use it as tool to keep homosexuals "in their place" now.

:shrug:

[trof]

21. It's a false religious thing.

But it's very 'real' to fundies.
:-(

[VeggieTart]

65. Actually, religion has been used..

...to keep everyone who isn't a heteroseuxual white male in their place. It breaks my heart to see blacks use religion against another group of people the way it was used against them. It's also why I intensely dislike organized religion.

N.B.: If I remember correctly, Mr. Loving died in a car accident in 1975. I think she is still alive.

[Lilith Velkor]

30. Monogamous gays only, the rest of us get to stay in the closet

Otherwise, it'd be an intrusion in the battle for the expansion of discrimination that favors couples... :eyes:

[mondo joe]

40. I hope they won't expect those gays to support affirmative action.

I don't mean black people in general - I mean the people you described.

[ecstatic]

56. off topic, but affirmative action has benefitted white women the most nt

[donco6]

111. No flame here. I know it's true.

Sad, but true. Just wish it wasn't that way. It makes me angry at religion, and I don't want to be.

[ecstatic]

134. You know its true? How? nt

[donco6]

140. I think I read it on CWA's website.

But then, you would know that.

[MazeRat7]

16. Only when you can "hide" being black are they comparable. (n/t)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. The emotional pain of hiding your sexuality is enormous.

And that pain should not be diminished. Nor is it possible for everyone to hide their sexual orientation.

[mondo joe]

35. Are you suggesting the hiding is better? It's not.

If I had the power to do so, I'd give every person a visible sign at birth so no one would ever have to hide or come out.

[LostinVA]

127. Appalling statement

And, if you don't know why, then you have no empathy or compassion for the dignity and intrinsic right of people to live as themselves. Openly. Without Fear.

Thanks for helping the GOP.

Jesus.

[porphyrian]

17. What if they're black and gay? Or half-black and bisexual? - n/t

[msongs]

19. why not ask harold ford JR what he thinks? nt

[ProgressiveEconomist]

23. I vote PRESENT, even though I have some good points to make

on this question. Please repost after control of the House and the Senate has been determined, in about two weeks.

[Democrats_win]

26. It doesn't matter! 'Liberty & Justice for all' is what counts.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

28. According to CORETTA SCOTT KING, it is COMPARABLE.

http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/coretta.html

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said. - Reuters, March 31, 1998.


"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group." - Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page."

I do believe that she had a sound well-informed opinion on the struggle of the black civil rights movement. No one can disagree with that.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

31. The big difference is

almost all gays, and very few blacks, can "pass." At all times in our history some of the wealthiest and most powerful men have been secretly gay. The same is not true of black people. This affects the character and the scope of the two struggles, both of which are equally valid causes IMO.

[mondo joe]

34. Another diff: no black person ever had to hide their race from their parents.

Black peopled at least have the benefit of growing up in a community, at the minimum a family, who can support them.

Gay kids are isolated and often fear even their own parents knowing who they are.

The experience is different - the civil rights issue is not.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. No black person has ever been disowned & homeless from their parents

at 15 because they were black.

[ecstatic]

59. No, but many blacks were disowned at birth by their white slave owner fathers

That's why so many African Americans have light skin. Ask Thomas Jefferson's kin!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

60. Please read my post about Loretta Scott King's opinion on this.

I think she probably has the most valid view of all.

[mondo joe]

62. And that bears comparison to people living right now in exactly what

way?

[Jed Dilligan]

41. Precisely my point.

The scope and the conditions of the struggle are different. Each group has different assets and different problems to contend with. Civil rights apply to everyone--but for some reason, each group other than straight white males has to struggle individually to enter "the fold." A political reality in America.

[keepCAblue]

39. A really bad generalization.

Some of the femme boys and butch girls I know could no more "pass" than could Malcom X or Foxy Brown.

And what of transgendered people? Often, their very safety often depends on "passing" and those who don't have been murdered for it.

Regardless, what does the issue of "passing" have to do with equal rights? Because a gay person can more easily hide their minority status, even if forced to do so by a homophobic society, that somehow lessens or negates their right to be who they are openly and treated as equal?

???

[Jed Dilligan]

42. All it means is

gay people have means to work within the power structure that blacks do not. One way is outing hypocritical gay anti-gay politicians.

Why does everyone think I'm saying one struggle is more valid than the other? I'm just pointing out that they are different.

You should read more carefully, I said "almost all," not all gays can pass...

[ecstatic]

45. Ability to pass or hide minority status is a very important factor!

I'm pretty sure at least one of our past American Presidents have been gay, but I can assure you, none of them have been black. Are things starting to make sense now? If you're white and gay, the sky is still the limit in this country. Of course the sky is the limit for blacks also, but there are A LOT LOT LOT more obstacles to overcome.

[mondo joe]

47. Um, if there WAS a closeted gay president in US history...

... do you think it did him, or gays, any good?

You seem to think spending a lifetime hiding who you are is a picnic.

[ecstatic]

52. no, but the point is, the person had that chance

In most cases, a closeted gay person isn't really fooling anyone, but that person is still allowed the freedom to move about and advance in this country as long as his/her sexuality isn't expressly stated. Is that fair? Hell no, but the point is, at least most gay people have that choice.

In our country's history, a black person couldn't even think about running for president. Things are changing now, but the country overall is still too prejudiced.

[mondo joe]

55. Had the chance to live a life in hiding and isolation?

Thinking that it would actually be an accomplishment to be a closeted gay president tells me you don't get this at all.

What you consider a beneficial choice I consider an unfortunate burden.

[ecstatic]

58. closeted gay president vs. overrepresentation in prisons? nt

[mondo joe]

61. Overrepresentation in prisons or in teen suicide?

You just keep demonstrating how little you understand this.

[LostinVA]

128. What gives you the right to tell us what our struggles are?

How insulting. How patronizing. And, it shows how clueless you are about this.

Ugh.

Thanks millions for the wonderful divisive, bigoted thread. Betcha you're as proud as Punch.

[ecstatic]

135. Well I know one thing your struggle is not-

and that's the struggle for economic equality. Economic wellbeing is crucial just to survive. This was never meant to be a 'who has it worse' thread. My point is, stop equating homophia to racism.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

142. And a huge proportion of kids on the street are gay.

They certainly don't have economic equality.

Also, there are poor gay people of every race, including black. The struggles are linked together.

[mondo joe]

157. Stop pretending racism is worse than homophobia.

Just stop. Mmkay?

[keepCAblue]

48. How deluded.

"If you're white and gay the sky's the limit"

Don't you mean, if you're white and CLOSETED, the sky's the limit? And why do you suppose only a CLOSETED white person could be president? Uh, that would be because the bigotry and hatred for gays in this country is overt and so sanctioned in this country, that one is FORCED to be CLOSETED in order to be accepted. Do you really think an openly gay white person has any more chance of being president than does a straight black person? Let's see...Barack Obama vs Barney Frank? Colin Powell vs. Jim McGreevey? Who would this country elect, given those choices?

BTW, McGreevey was effectively forced to resign as governor of NJ when he was outed as being gay.

[stillcool]

36. I feel sick...

where'd all the good people go?

[jesus_of_suburbia]

43. My thoughts exactly...

There's lots of good people here, but lots who have no empathy.

[donco6]

63. Beats me.

I've never felt so hammered in all the years I've been here. To have it come from the papers and TV is one thing, but this . . .

[LostinVA]

132. I know... I agree....

[LostinVA]

131. I literally am sickened by this

What homophobes and bigots abound on DU.

[gollygee]

38. They are not the same but they are both equally valid concerns

Discrimination is always wrong. But they are different because gay people have over history hidden their sexuality when they've felt it would be in their best interest. Also, people can't generally tell someone is gay the moment they walk into a store, so some of that kind of discrimination doesn't happen.

[stella]

49. THEY ARE NOT COMPARABLE

[WhollyHeretic]

57. Why the hell not?

They're both struggles for civil rights against bigoted braindead jackasses.

[stella]

68. Because unless you say you are gay

you are not discriminated.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

70. so being gay is a choice? and if we'd just sit down and act

straight it would be OK?

[stella]

79. OF COURSE NOT

Gays has to worry about one or two issues, like right to marriage, to serve in the military, be accepted as they are.

Blacks is an entire race who has and still is been discriminated just for being blacks.

Slavery, not be able to vote, not sharing bathrooms with whites and on and on, they had to endure a lot.

I can`t compare the 2. Sorry.

[Bluebear]

93. Thanks for your sensitivity and support. nt

:sarcasm:

[Kerrytravelers]

98. Please stop yelling in all caps. It is not necessary.

And to think that gay people only have to worry about one of two issues is truly naive. I suggest heading over to the LGBT board and running that idea through a thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=221

Let me give only a partial list that this straight girl can think of off the top of her head:

1. adoption- child custody
2. discrimination in the workplace
3. being brutally attacked or killed for being LGBT
4. health care- unable to get benefits from partner, unable to be with partner in the hospital
5. feeling safe and welcomed where they live
6. family turns them out because they are LGBT
7. unable to get required medication because hormones aren't covered under health insurance or they have no access to health care



If you have cable and access to the LOGO channel, try watching In The Life or Coming Out Stories or many of the films that runs on LOGO to understand fully what a LGBT person experiences.

[mondo joe]

106. One or 2 issues?

What a joke.

How about losing everything because your spouse's family challenged his will?

How about being beaten up?

How about the overrepresentation of gays among teen suicides?

How about having your kisd taken from you because you're gay?

You have a HELL of a lot to think about.

[Kerrytravelers]

99. I call total bull on that.

You need not make an announcement. If a bigot suspects you're gay, watch out. Gay or not, you're targeted.

[mitchtv]

102. that is a damned lie

People "decide" you are Gay, then beat you up, refuse service etc

[donco6]

113. Oh honey!

Ha! I laughed out loud at that one.

Yeah, the kids who beat me up after school did it because of my "I'm GAY!" t-shirt.

[LostinVA]

133. Fuck that -- do NOT tell ME what my struggles are

I would never dare presume do the same to a Black person.

How dare you? HOW DARE YOU!

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

172. People have been beaten & killed for being PERCEIVEED as gay.

People have been fired for being PERCIEVED as gay.
People have had epithets hurled at them for being PERCIEVED as gay.

That is discrimination.

[ikojo]

51. This is how I see it....

If someone is gay and white then that person pretty much enjoys majority group privilege. Unless he/she announces his/her sexual orientation then it is assumed he/she is straight and he/she is treated accordingly.

It is only when someone opens the closet door and begins to request rights readily available to the majority that the person in question begins to experience life as "other" in America.

Black people wear their "otherness" 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Sure some people have passed as white but for the most part the moment a black person in America leaves his/her house they are made well aware of where they stand in the American pecking order.

I believe an injustice to one is an injustice to all but I cannot bring myself to equate the struggle for gay rights to the struggle of black Americans to be seen and accepted as equals in the USA. Both are very important struggles but are not the same struggle.

[skypilot]

72. The fact that the person...

...was ever in the closet to begin with meant that they were experiencing life as "other". Do you know what it's like to be in the closet about your sexuality? I've been there. They were not good days and I felt quite "other" even though others didn't know my sexual orientation at the time.

[flvegan]

54. Yes, they are both based in selfishness.

Discrimination is based in emotion, not in fact.

[helderheid]

64. HELL YES IT IS THE SAME THING

:wtf:

[upi402]

66. civil rights, but the hair is afire right now...

so I'm a jerk I guess just wanting democracy and a Democratic party back right now.

_THEN_ maybe we can make progress for workers and civil rights.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

69. Blacks were not allowed to Marry at one time either.

Its the same fight.

[Hobarticus]

74. Gay is the new black, to the bigots...

It's the last safe bastion of bigotry that isn't frowned upon by the mainstream.

And it most certainly is a civil rights issue.

[Trekologer]

75. Civil right are civil rights

It doesn't matter what group one belongs to, everyone has (or should have) the same right as anyone else. Yes, unlike African Americans, gay individuals can for the most part hide who they are and avoid discrimination. Thats where I belive most who say thay are not comparable get the idea from. That is a bogus reason though. The root of the matter is that the reason that either group is discriminated against is becasue they are different. Plain and simple. They are discriminated against because they are different.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

76. There are some parallels, but also some big differences

The two issues are similar in that they both deal with a group being discriminated against on grounds which have nothing to do with impedences being placed in their way. OTOH

:- The two sets of things being forbidden are very different indeed - no-one ever suggested forbidding blacks from marrying or gays from voting.

:- Everyone agrees that being black is purely a matter of birth; to what extent homosexuality is a function of genetics vs choice vs environment remains controversial.

:- The opponents of "civil rights" (a phrase I dislike, incidentally - "rights" is a silly word) held that blacks were *inferior*; the opponents of "gay rights" hold that gays are *sinful*.

:- There were far more blacks than there are gays.

:- The "civil rights" struggles didn't break down so clearly along party lines, I believe.


I'd say that the underlying principle in the two issues was basically the same - don't prohibit someone from doing something for no good reason - but that the way they're likely to play out will be very different.

[ecstatic]

90. "Sinful" vs. "Inferior" - I'm so glad you brought up that point

Homophobics and bigots look at gayness as a condition that can be treated or cured by God.

[BoneDaddy]

77. Why is there a need to even make this comparison?

It just seems like it reduces people who have been victims to comparing one situation to the other as if to see "who the bigger victim is"

There are similarities and there are differences, but both are civil and human rights issues.

In fact I think this kind of poll and question is devisive and meant to turn the two groups against one another in a plight to decide "who had it worst".

[Tyo]

85. This kind of thing always becomes a pissing match

about which oppressed group has suffered more and/or longer.

If we are going to play this game we need by make it easier by establishing some kind of numerical scale of pain and oppression. You'd get so many points for being African-American, so many points for being gay, so many points for being Irish (obviously we'd need adjustments for how long ago the P&O took place), so many points for being Jewish, Native American, the list could get pretty long.

As gay and Asian I wonder what I'd score? Not as high as an African American but for sure higher than just plain gay. So what do I win?

[BoneDaddy]

108. Woah, hehe

Don't forget the Chinese suffered incredibly under the Japanese, and the Tibetans under the Chinese and so on and so on and so on.

If we look far enough back in EVERYONE's history we will find out that we are the descendents of kings and slaves both.

No one has an ownership of suffering or oppression. No one.

[donco6]

114. Not just a toaster, but a toaster oven!

Yahoo!

You're right tho. I hate to see these things crop up. You can't compare gay oppression to black oppression to Jewish oppression to genocidal mania. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that something shouldn't be done about it.

[breakaleg]

80. Two completely different struggles and I think both groups would

be offended by the comparison, for different reasons.

[skypilot]

83. "...I think both groups would be offended..."

Why exactly?

And what if you're a member of both groups, like I am?

[The Stranger]

81. NICE DEMOCRAT WEDGE ISSUE, and just in time for elections.

[Mr_Spock]

82. You noticed that huh?

Oh, well, it's always something...

[Kerrytravelers]

103. Surprise surprise. Imagine that. Just a short time before

the election.

[ecstatic]

92. it doesn't have to be a wedge, it can bring enlightenment to all sides

I'll be honest, I came into this feeling offended by all the posts that were comparing the gay struggle to the black struggle. Reading many of the posts, however, I've opened up to another point of view. However, it's also apparent from many of the posts that most people on DU and elsewhere will never understand the racism and uphill battle it is for blacks in this country. There is an emotional price to pay, but consider that almost everyone has skeletons of some sort and I can't honestly say that one big secret is so much more traumatic than another one (in reference to the emotional anguish of being in the closet).

[Bluebear]

94. You think you can enlighten ALL sides with this? Not the right wing.

Here's one similarity between blacks and gays: not far under the surface most Republicans can't stand either group. That alone should meld the two groups in the cause of civil rights for all.

[readmoreoften]

155. And, to be honest, I get offended by people who assume that

the struggle for GLBT rights is a WHITE struggle-- as if we're all privileged, white, middle class, men complaining about tax inequity. No one race or ethnicity has the market cornered on GLBT people. You see white gays, because there are more white people. You see rich gays on TV because poor gays are as invisible as all the other poor people in this country.

Gay issues ARE black issues because BLACK PEOPLE ARE GAY TOO. According to the NGLTF, 40% of hispanic lesbians have children. Don't you think that gay marriage is a poverty issue in those families?

[tishaLA]

86. There's a great article about this

By queer theorist/legal scholar Janet Halley (Royall Professor of Law at Harvard). She argues against creating analogues between racial and sexual orientation discrimination....I won't be able to remember the intricacies of her argument right now--I haven't read the piece for a few years--but it appears in the book "What's Left of Theory?"

[ecstatic]

91. I will check that out. Thanks! nt

[xultar]

87. Consider in most cases you can't hide Blackness.

I will say though civil rights is a must for all.

[skypilot]

88. But if you could hide it...

...I'd imagine it would be a burden to do so. Not to mention the burden of living in a society where you felt you had to. Hiding some aspect of your being is not an advantage.

[xultar]

89. True. No rguements here. It's just that people tend to hate me

in traffic or at the mall without having spoke with me. Hell they can hate me from a mile away. It's hard to get away from.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Yes.

Very much so.

I pity the fool who doesn't see the obvious similarities.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cboy4]

100. Gee I wonder why you started this poll

:hi:

I'm glad you're continuing to pour fuel on the fire with this reckless poll, because the one thing we need right now is to divide us all even further.

You know damn well when I used the African American analogy yesterday, it had nothing to do with what your posting about today.

Here's an idea idea for your next poll:

What do gay people want to screw the most?

(A) DOG

(B) BOX TURTLE

(C) DOESN'T MATTER, THEY'RE ALL GOING TO HELL

:eyes:

[mitchtv]

109. I appreciate your post

I guess I won't be "announcing" my gayness to keep me from being mauled by some straight punk in the street. Hell there are quite a few on this thread

[ecstatic]

112. why did you use the black analogy?

And why are you trying to paint me as homophobic? Why would you do that? Is that what you want?

[cboy4]

117. There is no other purpose for this thread, except to divide.

Now whether that was your intention, only you can answer that.

But to start comparing minority groups, and dissecting who needs rights more and are the issues the same is irrelevant.

What are you tryimg to prove?

[donco6]

116. Ha! I agree. eom

[Kerrytravelers]

104. When the first spark of an idea lit up your brain to create this

thread, what did you mean to accomplish? What were your intentions?

Seriously.




Edited to add:

P.S. I voted other in the poll above because I think the intention of this poll was "other" than to create an interesting dialog.

[donco6]

110. This question can only lead to disharmony and strife.

As it has. I think the OP knew it would, too.

[Kerrytravelers]

115. Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. And all the other

old says that sum up my agreement with you.

[DireStrike]

105. The ways of discriminating are different, nothing else.

People are being persecuted for who they are. I didn't feel like that a few days ago but now I realize I was wrong. This is a human rights issue, not something to back down from.

[Bluebear]

107. DS, that's great!

And so are you. Thanks for your support.

[Stuckinthebush]

122. BINGO...This is the correct answer!

"My oppression in worse than your oppression" is silly at best and destructive at worst.

Civil rights are civil rights regardless of how the bigotry manifests in society.

As Democrats we have a DUTY to fight for civil rights for all, and to be intelligent enough to recognize our own prejudices in order to work on them within ourselves. When one oppressed group fights against the rights of another repressed group, then all get hurt.

[buddhamama]

118. yes.

the point is, we are all humans and should be treated equally.

[LostinVA]

119. This is a pretty flamey OP -- VERY divisive, imo

[Maven]

121. Agreed. I hope this gets locked.

The OP has pretty much "unmasked" herself as someone with negative intentions.

[LostinVA]

144. She quoted the "Concerned Women of America" on another

anti-gay post on another thread...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

149. Honestly, I'm amazed a few people here haven't just started quoting

"Focus on the Family."

[LostinVA]

151. Or Rush or Phelps -- ugh

[Stuckinthebush]

124. Yes, but very enlightening

I am shocked at some of the comments from fellow progressives.

[ecstatic]

125. why is it shocking that not everyone thinks homophobia is equal to racism?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

129. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

143. Tell me about it -- kinda sickening, huh?

[WhollyHeretic]

126. Using civil rights to divide people

I'd expect those sort of tactics on some other unnamed sites.

[LostinVA]

141. Words out of my mouth

[LostinVA]

130. AS I read this thread, the divisive tactic of the OP was successful

All of us fell for it. Even me.

We should be ashamed, but not as ashamed as the OP.

She is now on my Ignore list, so I don't have to read bigoted, homophobic posts from her anymore.

[ecstatic]

136. good riddance. you hurt your cause with your wild, unfounded accusations nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

154. Uh-uh. Sure... Oh and I have a question for you?

You are aware that there are black gay people, right?

[ecstatic]

160. One of my best friends is a black lesbian

My sister's friend/roommate is gay. What is your point? Why can't we stick to the topic of this board??? And why oh why am I homophobic for not thinking that homophobia is equal to racism? Your pressure tactics WILL NOT WORK on me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

164. My point is gay rights affect people of every race. I'm on topic btw.

You seem to think that hiding your sexuality is an okay alternative if we don't want to be discriminated against.

And I don't know what pressure tactics you're talking about. I think you need to take a break.

[Warren DeMontague]

137. Are gays and African Americans both human beings? Yes.

So the answer to the OP is yes, too.

[McCamy Taylor]

139. "Divide and conquer" is a favorite strategy. Read "Mind of the South"

They were called Democrats back then (or maybe Dixiecrats) but they used fear of the Black Man the same way the modern GOP uses fear of the Gay Man.

So, no, there is no difference between the villinization of the Black Man and the Gay Man---except that the Black Man was supposed to be after your White Daughter's virginity and the Gay Man is supposed to be after your White Son's virginity.

[ecstatic]

145. ANYONE who doesn't agree with me is RACIST

Makes about as much sense as labeling me "homophobic," despite me saying several times that I believe we should fight for civil rights for all. My only mistake was saying homophobia is not the same as racism.

:crazy:

I'm done!!!!

[donco6]

150. C'ya.

Guess "truth hurts too much" would be a better moniker.

[mondo joe]

156. Disagreeing wouldn't make anyone homophobic. Homophobia

would.

[Geek_Girl]

147. I believe Discriminations against gays is a civil rights issue

Plain and simple. The only thing that makes the issue different is that homosexuals can hide their sexuality african americans can't hide their skin color.

And allot of dumb asses out their believe sexuality is a choice.

[Random_Australian]

148. Other: While they are both similar in bieng needed civil rights movements,

I have to say that if two things were 100% comparable, it would be because they are the same thing.

Here we have somewhat different circumstances.

[donco6]

153. 200 posts and not a single rec? That says something. eom

[ecstatic]

162. honestly, I wish this thread would sink like a pile of bricks

It's clear this was a mistake. Wild accusations of homophobia for asking a simple question, all the while having to repeat myself time and time again: I AM for gay rights and gay marriage, but homophobia is not equal to racism.

ETA: I hate to bump this board, but I MUST defend myself. Will not allow myself to be swiftboated.

[readmoreoften]

163. So are women's rights inferior to African-American civil rights?

What other struggles are less important? This is divisive and USELESS.

[ecstatic]

166. not less important, just different. two separate issues

That is my only point. Nowhere did I say gay rights was less important. I just think it's a different fight that cannot be lumped in with racism, just as sexism can't always be lumped in with racism (or the illegal immigration debate, for that matter).

[mondo joe]

167. Right, they're not equal Racism is only 72.2% as bad as homophobia.

Actually, all groups experience different struggles, but that doesn't make one greater or less than the other.

But since the OP enjoys making up statistics I thought I'd throw one in too.

[ecstatic]

169. and nowhere did I say the gay rights struggle was lesser, just that its different

the scope is different, the obstacles are different, the results will be different--the consequences of not addressing it are different. It's just different, that's the only point I've tried (unsuccessfully) to make. Nothing sinister going on in my mind!

[mondo joe]

170. You actually did gay americans face 10% or less of the issues

faced by African Americans.

That is one stupid made up statistic. You have no idea what gay Americans face - you've made that amply clear. You decided difference = less.

You then said "Blacks won't attain 100% equal rights prior to the merging of all races in this country" but you ignore the fact that blacks legally have equal RIGHTS now - gays do not.

[ecstatic]

171. Yes, meaning of the 100% of issues that gay americans face

only about 10% are the same issues that Black Americans face. The other 90% or so of issues faced by gay americans are just downright different from the issues faced by blacks. It could be more of a 25/75% breakdown, but to focus on the numbers misses the point.

As far as your other point, blacks legally have equal rights now, but it doesn't play out that way in American politics, banks, schools, colleges, etc. We have rights on paper, but then we go out into the real world and see that everything is not what it seems.

[mondo joe]

173. So you mean blacks only experience 10% of what gays do?

And if you don't mean RIGHTS don't say RIGHTS.

And frankly, I'd take the equal rights, since I don't even have THAT.

[Divine Discontent]

158. shouldn't be discussed together unless

someone is bringing up the fight of all those who suffer discrimination regardless of what form it takes, (because you're Christian, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, or black, white, etc). I wouldn't bring it up if I was talking about black rights, what would be the purpose, except for what I just typed.


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- antibush prodem stickers/shirts

[TahitiNut]

159. How many gays have gay parents and gay grandparetns and ...

... gay great grandparents .... ?

What compounds the evils of racism is the inheritance of depivation - the theft of whatever benfit one generation may strive to leave to the next. The generational cascade of racism's harms cannot be compared to the evils of sexism or homophobia or even religious intolerance. At the same time, there's no redeeming virtue whatsoever in a "lesser evil." Evil is evil.

[sendero]

174. People are born black..

... and people are born gay. End of story.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

176. I'm going to lock this.

It's become too divisive for continued discussion.

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
DU Moderator