Questions about debit card refunds.

[demgurl]

We do not believe in credit cards, we only use a bank debit card. The situation is complicated but a company said that I authorized them to automatically charge my card yearly. I did not want them to renew this year but was not worried since the expiration date they had was expired. Well, yesterday I got the notice that they had charged my card! I was astounded since that means they would have to fiddle with my credit card without even talking to me. I emailed them and they said I could cancel at any time but according to the contract they would keep the full fee! It was just renewed yesterday and I contacted them yesterday but they would keep the full amount even if I canceled!! I am upset and am wondering if I have any recourse with a debit card. Does anyone know? Thanks.

[cautiouslywaiting]

1. I don't know...

I didn't even know there were charges for debit cards. Mine is free.

[blogslut]

2. call your bank

n/t

[Rosemary2205]

3. You have to dispute this through your bank.

Take the proof you cancelled prior to them charging you again. Also take the proof the contract you signed with the disputed charge was expired. The rights you have on your debit card depend on your state and your bank.

[jaysunb]

4. Call your bank

refuse the charge....they'll fight but you'll win.

[truebrit71]

8. Exactly. I had a similar situation a few years ago...

...my bank did all of the legwork and I got my money back...

[demgurl]

27. I will get on that first thing tomorrow morning.

[livetohike]

5. Ditto on "call your bank"

A debit card should not incur any charges other than the ones you make for withdrawals or authorized payments.

[RebelOne]

6. I think you are out of luck with a debit card.

It's just like writing a check. At least, with a credit card, you can contest the charge.

[Hav]

7. .

I'm pretty sure that you can go the bank and demand that they transfer the money back.
Concerning the legal issue and how you got into it, I can't say anything. Could be a trick that many websites often use. You should make a websearch about them.
I don't want to say anything incorrect, but some of the things that these companies do aren't really legal and some screwed customers just don't pay even if they threaten you to sue you.

[demgurl]

13. It was only after this incident I did a search....

and there are TONS of complaints about this company and it is a very well known web company as well!!! I was taken aback when I saw all the complaints about them. I dare say that 95% of people here know them or have used them. I did contact the attorney general of their state today.

[Hav]

18. .

Then it's most likely a scam with something deep down in a contract nobody reads. I hate these bastards. So please make sure that you get your money back and don't get intimidated when they send lawyers after you. You might have to react to these letters by declining their claims but I would say that they would just give up after a time, especially when you tell them that you informed a lawyer yourself.
But you better take a look at those who were affected. Often you will find some who tell you how they handled the issue without paying.

[demgurl]

26. Yes, I am going to fight it just because

so many people use this business. It is wrong to scam so many people. It is buried pretty deep. I am not the only one who says this. Some claim that it was not there at all but I will be truthful and say things like that can be overlooked and perhaps I overlooked it. Whatever happened, they are determined once they get your money you will never see it again.

[jeanarrett]

9. Yes. Go to your bank and tell them that it is an

unauthorized charge. They usually have you fill out a form and reverse it. However, my bank eats the charge if it's small like $30.

[demgurl]

14. It is a small amount...

in the exact range you have described. I know it is a small amount but it is more the principle of the whole thing. I feel like my interaction with them has not been taken seriously at all. In email and on the phone they have given me, word for word, the exact same answer.

[madokie]

10. i just went through this with real player yesterday

Charged me because real player came in the bundle with my computer and I didn't let them know I didn't want it or some shit like that the man said. He kept asking me what I want to do I kept tellin him I wanted my 60 bucks back in my checking account. finally he said they would be redepositing it in our account in 7 to 10 days. I have a note here for me to call the bank in two weeks to find out. we'll see. I use media player classic for running real files.

[demgurl]

19. I am glad that turned out well for you.

Way to go on standing up and getting your money. It is cool when you deal with someone ethical. I am convinced this company is taking people for all they can after reading similar stories to my own. There are tons of people who signed up for a trial period with this site (3 months) and they kept getting charged every three months and then a full membership fee after a year! They insisted everyone signed up for it and they said as per user agreement, no money will be given back at any time. I could not believe how many people complained about that and about this organization giving the credit card information to another site and people were being charged almost $10 a month for the other site. There is complaint after complaint about this.

The company has their phone lines set up so that it is near impossible to get an actual person on the phone. I finally gave up and tracked down someone at their house. The guy told me if I ever call him again he will get his attorney to sue me for harassment! He told me,in no uncertain terms, that he is not the business and that me calling him at home was against the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I admit I was tempted to call him back just to let him know I have no property in my name at all but I just do not want to play games with a shark.

[madokie]

24. real player got my card number because of their 14 day free trial

that I canceled the same day I signed up, I just decided I didn't want it, this all a year ago this August. So I never gave it another thought until the bank statement arrived yesterday.

[demgurl]

31. Holy cow, you have not been charged a monthly fee, have you?

Glad everything turned out OK.

[madokie]

37. better go look and see

[demgurl]

39. madokie....

they seem like a fair company who will reimburse you if they did. Please do check on it.

[madokie]

46. I'm sure you're right because they did agree to reimburse us

and there were no other charges so maybe all is well.

[htuttle]

11. When your old debit card expires, does your new one have a new number?

Our bank changes our card number on the new card every time the old card expires. This is important, since an astounding number of credit/debit card processing houses only check that the expiration date is in the future -- they don't always check that it is the correct expiration date for that card. So the company may have just presented a fake expiration date (that wasn't expired), and the processor still cleared the transaction.

Even worse, because of this failure to verify the expiration date is the correct one (as opposed to merely being in the future), someone can literally 'guess' (or generate) your card number and run transactions against it, even if they never legitimately had access to your card. There are bots out there doing this all the time (they'll try to run a whole list of generated card numbers for small transactions, and then keep the numbers that succeed to use for large transactions).

[demgurl]

21. No, no change of the last number on our card.

Now I wish they did. I just think that is sort of cruddy saying that them tinkering with the expired card number they had means I consented. Yeah, I think they just tinkered with the year until it worked. :grr:

[DaveJ]

12. That's unusual...

In that kind of situation, most companies will refund a fee for a service if you cancel it within a few days and have never used it. To refuse shows unbelievable stubbornness.

Anyway the other posters are right, most banks will let you file a dispute and help you get the money back.

[demgurl]

23. I am going to call the bank tomorrow.

Just thought someone might know the best way to go about approaching this.

Yes, it is unusual unless you have rigged the whole system to your advantage so that you can scam people. I read page after page of people who were taken the same way as I was (or worse) by the same company. If it is an honest mistake a company tries to work with you and not block you from human communication with their company.

[bpeale]

15. dispute it thru the bank

i just had to do this with one i had not authorized. they got my money back & issued me a new bank card.

[TygrBright]

16. MOST debit cards are "also" credit cards...

...as in, VISA, Mastercard, etc. And VISA, Mastercard, etc., have specific policies about being able to dispute charges, negotiate refunds, and so on. See whether there's a major credit card logo on your debit card, and then enquire about the credit card company's customer service policies.

You should also be able to contact your bank and tell them that an unauthorized charge was made to your debit card, and ask them their policy for handling the matter. I hope your bank isn't Chase or one of the other megacriminals.

encouragingly,
Bright

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. But The Charge Was Authorized.

The user agreed to the charges on a yearly basis. Instead of canceling, the user felt secure that since the card was expired, it would force the company to not be able to charge for the coming year. That wasn't the case, and they were able to anyway.

I'm not sure the bank is going to do anything with this, since it was an authorized transaction. The only issue was that the card was expired, but I'm not sure what bank policies are against transactions done against an expired card.

[demgurl]

30. The thing was that

I did want to cancel but I was not sure when my membership expired. I did feel secure they could not use my credit card and that when they would contact me I would decline a new membership. It is one thing to not read something even when you do not realize this is an untrustworthy organization but it is another to think you are safe and that businesses will not tinker with your card information.

It may have been foolish but I felt perfectly safe knowing they could not charge my card since they had expired information. I honestly thought it would be against the law for them to tinker with that information. I guess not since when I confronted them with this they did not even bother to address it. I only authorized them to use a card that expired earlier this year. It may be the same card number but I did not authorize them to use a card that expires much later.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. They Probably Didn't Have To Tinker With Anything Though.

I remember when I got my new card and new expiration date, it was the exact same number as my previous card. In that case, a site that already has the card number in their database, and just resubmits it for the next year, would never really have a care or knowledge about the old card expiring. They don't have a physical card, they just have the number. If the number was still active it would go through just fine.

Chances are, when it came time for billing they just simply submitted your card number with the requested charge and it went through perfectly fine, as the number was still active from your bank.

I try to never subscribe to anything with automatic billing because it is so easy to lose the cancellation information required or can be such a headache to cancel certain accounts. It sucks that you had to get charged but I'm really not sure the bank is going to be able to help you, since you were signed up for the subscription and the company had your approval to charge your card.

[demgurl]

40. Someone would have had to tinker with something

because every business I have ever participated in would not accept a card just on a number, they always had to have an expiration date. The first time it would have been declined.

The problem is that this company is doing this to thousands of people. I go from site to site and there are pages upon pages with this company and offshoots of this company. This company owns several other companies and people a few people who have signed up with the first one ended up being charged for enrollments with sister branches. All of them say they never signed up and that they just used the credit card number at their discretion. Each and every time the company said that the person agreed to it and it is their tough luck.

This is not just one or two people complaining, this is many, many people. The worst part is that if you research their employees you will see they came from other companies who ran similar scams and have just moved onto this one to do the same thing! This is not simply a misunderstanding, this is a company that tries everything they can to get a hold of your money. It has been done so many times that it is not a mistake but, rather, a pattern. This is a company bilking people out of goodness knows how much money.

[demgurl]

28. Hey Bright!

:hi: Yeah, it is a Visa check card so that may help. No Chase - credit union here.

[TygrBright]

35. Well, with a credit union at least...

...they won't treat you like the stuff on the bottom of their shoes. Good luck to ya!

encouragingly,
Bright

[demgurl]

38. Thanks, Bright.

You always know how to 'brighten' my day. :hug:

[grizmaster]

17. expiration does not equal cancellation

until you cancel they'll hit you with fees. Any reputable company will drop the charges, especially if you catch it early.

[demgurl]

32. Yes, I understand that now.

I would feel bad but if they had tried to work things out with me I would have been fine. I went through their telephone maze today and that was a lesson in frustration. Their emails give a copy and past answer. Even when I called and pressed a number for billing, a taped message came on stating the exact same thing that their cs member emailed me! When has anyone ever called a business to speak with billing and a pat recorder answer came on? Does this say anything to you about the number of calls they get like this? Of course, at the end of the recording I could leave voice mail!!!!!

[grizmaster]

34. I had a problem with a "free" credit report company

They slammed me with a subscription (the feds busted them for decieving practices since). Took me two weeks and much time on hold but eventually I was fully reimbursed.

[demgurl]

42. Way to go! I like to hear stories of triumph.

I am also glad they got busted.

I think what some people loose sight of is that if a company is running a scam, they have set it up in the most profitable way possible. The fact that so many people are complaining means that something is wrong somewhere. Yes, I am an adult but I think it is despicable when companies take advantage of consumers.

I recall seeing x-box listed on Ebay. The seller would have a couple of pages of word intense paragraphs and somewhere in all of the wording it would state you are bidding on a box. The person would go into insane details about the first ten levels of the a game for the system and how to play the levels step by step. I just know people would skip it all and just bid believing they were bidding on the x-box system and not the empty box. Should they have read the entire listing? Perhaps but the intent was there to deceive and that is what it all boils down to - the intent to deceive. That is what the company did to me. And knowing that this company name is just about as common as McDonald's, Circuit City or Apple just makes me sick wondering how much money they have scammed.

[grizmaster]

47. here's another article on the scam

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7803368

[demgurl]

48. Wow!

It is amazing to see stuff like that in print. I have contacted Dateline about this scam but I will be contacting the other big ones as well. At this point it is not as much about my piddly bit of money as it is about saving others. Thanks for sharing this.

[RamboLiberal]

20. Fight 'em - I hate companies that charge my card w/o

asking - AAA did this to me recently but since I was staying a member I didn't fight it.

I don't understand why you don't have a free debit card - you need to shop around. All my banking including online bill payment is free with my bank, they even stopped charging recently for using another bank's ATM. If it's Visa or Mastercard you should be able to fight it.

One bad part of debit cards I found out is not to use them online - I almost got nicked for $150 that someone fraudulently charged on my card online - I figured it must've been stolen from an online merchant. That's one area where I prefer a credit card with a feature of generating a new number and credit limit for each online transaction.

If all else fails you might check with consumer activist and online radio host Clark Howard. I listen to his show and he has gone to bat many times for consumer fraud, especially from banks.

If nothing else you'd get the satisfaction if you got a call in to vent online and rip the card issuer.

[tulsakatz]

25. I don't know about that.........

...but I know you can't put a stop payment on a debit card transaction. I would imagine other options would also be limited too.

[warrens]

29. Never assume an agreement will expire

They'll ALWAYS push it, figuring the vast majority won't notice or if they do, won't bother complaining. If you fight it, your bank will often just pay you the money and notify the company that it will refuse future agreements of the sort. The company will then pay the bank to keep from getting a black mark on its record with its merchant acquirer, who actually processes the transactions. No merchant acquirer, no ability to accept electronic payments.

[demgurl]

33. Yes, this has taught me a valuable lesson.

You know, I would not even be upset or fighting this hard if I had not researched and found out how they are doing this to a ton of people. There was person after person complaining about this and how they could not even reach the company (I had to dig to get information. The only way to contact them, listed on their site, is through email. It was near impossible to find a phone number and when I did I could not get a single person to talk to me. Everything was automated. When I finally dug some more and managed to get some names, so I could go through the company directory, the voice mails there told me to contact them by email!

[donco6]

41. You're probably out of luck.

With a real credit card, dispute resolution is usually pretty successful. But with a debit card, the other entity already has your cash. Good luck trying to pry it out of their hands.

[demgurl]

43. I have thought a lot about it ....

if I have to I just may see if a lawyer would do a class law suit. People have to be warned about this company. Even if I do not get my money back, people need to know what they are getting into. I have already sent details to several media outlets.

[donco6]

44. Go for it!

I hate that crappy practice myself, and have been snagged by it several times. Just recently we signed up for a "no payments, no interest" credit account at Ultimate Electronics. Little did I know they were signing me up for credit insurance at the same time. If I hadn't been watching, I wouldn't have noticed the $33/month charge they were adding to the account! That's OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive insurance!

These people are crooks and no mistake.

[demgurl]

45. I was just reading their site and here is what the TOS says....

Payment.

<snip> If you purchase Subscription Services, you agree to pay, using a valid credit card (or other form of payment that we may accept from time to time), the applicable fees and taxes (if any) set forth on the Website.
<snip>
If payment cannot be charged to your credit card or your payment is returned to XXXXXX for any reason, XXXXXX reserves the right to either suspend or terminate your access to the unpaid-for Subscription Services.
<snip>

In the first paragraph it says that I agree to pay using a valid credit card - one which they did not have the expiration date for at the time. It does not say they can take the liberty of updating my expiration date.

In the second paragraph it says that if my credit card can not be used then my membership can be suspended or terminated.

Their own wording makes it specific that an expired card can not be used and if it is turned down due to being expired, I am out. That would have been fine with me.