We are being monitored by our own government right now.

[originalpckelly]

Either some freeper reported those two dorks who posted the threats, agents routinely view hotbeds of al-Qaeda terrorists (you know like DU) or the government has some sort of keyword searching technology which acts like spell and grammar check, but looks out for select and unmentionable phrases.

It might be all three of those, but the last two have implications which are quite frightening.

Our own government has so little trust in its people, that they monitor our communications online. Now, admittedly, they are public. But it is a very weird thing to have happening. They expect us to say something wrong or do something wrong. Instead of presuming innocence, they presume guilt.

People aren't perfect, but I don't think everyone in America should be under a cloud of suspicion. In a way they are treating us all like we are terrorists, when quite frankly I highly doubt many of us could fight our way out of a wet paper bag.

We haven't done anything wrong, yet we are treated like we have.

The government has put you and I under investigation for a crime you have yet or may never commit. It isn't right, it is fundamentally un-American.

There has to be a better way than to make us all suspects. You can't tell me in the 21st century, that the wizards of technology at the NSA and other government agencies can't create a system or methodology which doesn't presume guilt.

We are living in a low security digital prison, welcome to America in the 21st century.

[Gormy Cuss]

1. Umm, which two threads? n/t

[meldroc]

38. The threads in question were deleted by the mods.

The DU rules state explicitly that things like death threats to the POTUS and others are explicitly verboten.

As much as I hate our current POTUS, I have to agree with this policy. There are better ways to deal with him than assassination. Assassination opens a door that this country really can't afford to go through right now. That and I don't want to go to jail for advocating murder.

[Gormy Cuss]

40. Thanks.

I read Skinner's post but missed the threads in question. I've seen many posts that are right on the borderline but never one that was clearly a threat. I'm just curious what topic set off the banned posters but I guess I'll have to live without that bit of info.

[meegbear]

2. And your point caller?

[William769]

3. I am in favor of freedom of speech

But it can be taken to far.

I may get flamed for this, but the Government does have the right in a public forum.

[originalpckelly]

34. This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech...

and everything to do with being presumed guilty by our own government.

Free/unfree speech is the ability to say or not say something.

I don't have a problem with them arresting someone who shouted fire in a theater, I have a problem with police officers patrolling the theater waiting for someone to shout fire.

Get the idea? Instead of actually waiting until someone has made a threat to begin an investigation, they are preemptively investigating a crime.

They presume someone is guilty before they have any evidence to suggest they are. That is the point of my post.

[William769]

53. Sorry has everything to do with free speech

& being responsible.

I do realize though some people gave a problem with being responsible.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. I would gather that there are several agencies monitoring the

internets. I don't feel as though I am being treated as if I have done something wrong. I think it's premature to assume that.

[razors edge]

5. Any threat to the status quo

must be taken seriously, their job is to insulate the upper class from the lower class.

[gollygee]

6. At least it's probably less boring than most jobs for the secret service

or whoever is monitoring us.

I doubt this is the only site that gets monitored, and I'd guess Free Republic is on the list too. When we write something here, we put it out into the public, and it stops being an infringement upon our rights if it is monitored. They don't need a warrant to read a public internet site.

[Carni]

62. They never did anything to the freak republic in the 90's

There were a few occasions where people were openly posting about shooting the Pres and assorted Dem candidates and most of the time the posts didn't even get pulled little alone scrutinized by government...Salon had a feature on this way back in the day...not to say that I agree with that behavior but I find ot interesting that they ran unfettered with ther threats and yet DU warrants SS monitoring-- here's an excerpt and can you believe they disliked the bush empire back then??? Gee--how things change! (wonder who paid off rim job and his minions?)


http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:UbZQ_tjMWMoJ:www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/07/13/free/+free+republic+clinton+death+threat+salon&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

"July 13, 1999 | WASHINGTON -- Last year, when the sound and fury of the anti-Clinton movement was cresting with every White House revelation, no group reveled more gleefully in the president's troubles than the habitues of Free Republic, a raucous conservative Web site where Clinton bashers vied to top each others' harangues and posted press clips bolstering their views.

Drudge, Goldberg and several other Free Republic stars have left; visits are reportedly down to less than half what they were a year ago; Free Republic's founding guru, Jim Robinson, has been sued by the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times; and a swelling number of haters have turned up the volume of death threats, gay-bashing, name-calling and conspiracy theories tying the father of Republican front-runner George W. Bush to drug-dealing by the CIA.

To be fair, Free Republic has always been a home for pugilistic far-right zealots, and its recent traffic decline is probably due to the passing of impeachment as an issue, not just dissent over the crusade against Bush. But disaffected Freep stalwarts say that in recent months Robinson "let all the Y2K, gun-nut, Jew-baiting crazies take over and flame the plain-old conservatives," in the words of Goldberg.

[tblue]

7. The gov't equates * with America. Anti-* = Anti-American

We all know that is BS. If our gov't has no trust in its people, what does that say about our gov't?

I do feel like I have to watch what I say, which means I am not free.

It was a nice country while it lasted.

[bdamomma]

19. I feel the same way.

[bluerum]

8. I am sure that we and the rest of the country would be amazed if

we knew the extent of what they can and are doing.

I guess I wonder why Bill O'ShitFoBrainsReilly can tell Okayda to bomb San Francisco, and Ann the rat Coulter can advocate the destruction of the NY Times building without any repercussions? Just because San Fran and the NY Times are not the president?

My sense is that the country and the world would suffer a lot more if San Fran or the NY Times building were destroyed.

[Phillycat]

9. I could TOTALLY fight my way out of a wet paper bag.

A dry one, too!

[boolean]

10. Hi Mr. Secret Service Agent!

:hi:

Your boss is a dochebag!

[BOSSHOG]

11. I wonder how my ass looked from a satellite

when my liberal wife and I had evil liberal sex out in the back yard.

[originalpckelly]

14. They do have satellites which are capable of real-time video...

at high quality resolutions, enough to see your butt, but they probably have them focused on places like North Korea and Iran.

[originalpckelly]

16. C & L had this up when Bush talked about using the google...

http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-archive/2000/Jan/0008.html

It talks about the satellites capability.

Here is the C & L page, the first link is not working right now, but hopefully will be back up later.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/24/president-bush-uses-the-google/

[BOSSHOG]

31. You are tweaking my exhibitionist bones

[bdamomma]

25. talk about satellites

ever go to http://www.willow.com

you may see your own house. check it out.

[youthere]

39. It was a little blurry...

but other than that...:thumbsup:

(kidding!)

[BOSSHOG]

54. Its rainy tonight but maybe we'll try again this weekend

And of course it was blurry, like moving or something.

[youthere]

58. Try to slow it down a bit!

After all, what's your rush?

[VaYallaDawg]

52. Once in a while you are really good for an afternoon dose of pure humor!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MrCoffee]

12. Anyone can visit a public web forum, including the Secret Service

if you don't like it, don't post.

[originalpckelly]

17. Most people cannot charge you with a crime...

Just saying.

[MrCoffee]

23. who has been charged with a crime for posting?

[originalpckelly]

29. No, the government can charge you with a crime...

non-government individuals don't have the right to charge you with a crime however. There is something wrong here, and it has to do with being presumed guilty, instead of being presumed innocent.

[MrCoffee]

35. Who is being presumed guilty? The job of the Secret Service is to

investigate threats against government officials. They take each and every threat seriously, regardless of the source or medium. Remember the 14 year old girl a couple of weeks ago who was investigated because of her myspace page?

DUers don't get some sort of free pass for posting threats. The Secret Service is right to investigate them, and the DU Administrators are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to make the Secret Service do their job properly.

OF COURSE they're keeping an eye on here. It's naive to think otherwise. But Skinner and the Admins should get lauded for handling this like grown-ups, and making sure the Secret Service follows established legal authority for conducting their investigation.

Do you think Skinner would have gotten a phone call if they didn't plan on following the rules?

[originalpckelly]

41. I am not saying they don't have a right to investigate threats when they are...

made, I am saying it is wrong to investigate before the threats are made.

No, it isn't one bit naive to expect them not to watch us. What right does someone have to treat me or you like a criminal and put us under suspicion, if we haven't done anything wrong yet (or ever)?

There is a difference between opening an investigation when a crime has been committed or a threat has been made, and opening an investigation before the crime has been committed.

You are a suspect in a crime which has yet to occur and may never occur. Now, you haven't done anything wrong so you aren't at the top of the suspects list, but you are on the list, as all of us on DU are and in this nation are.

That is wrong. No one should be on a list of suspects when they have done nothing wrong, or aren't materially connected to a suspect (such as wearing the same clothes and having the same physical appearance.)

If there is a bank robbery, the police do not talk to people who were in the bank five weeks before the robbery, unless they are somehow materially connected to the suspect. If a crime is committed in a city, all the residents are rounded up to be interviewed are they? There is a limit usually to how far someone may go to investigate a crime, there is a limit to how long the list of suspects is.

But this isn't happening in America today, the list of suspects contains everyone on internet. The list contains everyone on DU.

I am being clear? I may not, but I'll keep trying if you are kind enough to read.

[MrCoffee]

45. According to Skinner's post, threats were made in DU...

one was caught and deleted, the other two were not caught, and apparently posters were tombstoned for making them.

[originalpckelly]

59. Forget about the posters, they are not important...

It isn't that the government went after someone making threats, it is that the government is watching this board and other boards, even if no one ever posts on them making any kind of threat.

In other words we are being watched (as a nation, not just DU) even though most of us have not done anything wrong.

That is the presumption that we are going to do something wrong, even though we haven't as of yet.

That is the presumption of guilt, not innocence.

If the government presumed people innocent, they would not be monitoring forums or any other public domain.

If they are looking for terrorists, why not monitor the websites of jihadists? Wouldn't that be more useful and wouldn't it cost less?

I highly doubt a Muslim radical will post his fatwa on DU, I'm just saying it isn't too likely.

I also don't think anyone who really means the President ill, would post on such a widely known liberal forum. The same applies for the widely known conservative forum free republic; I highly doubt radical Christian extremists would post their plans to bomb an abortion clinic there.

I really don't want the freepers to have to go through hell just because they said something stupid on a message board, just as I would hope they'd feel the same about us.

You get the idea? They are wasting resources swatting at shadows, when they could be working directly on things which matter.
In addition to that, they are presuming guilt before we have done anything wrong.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. No, We Aren't Being Watched. Not Sure Where Your Paranoia Is Coming From.

Please stop spreading this melodramatic garbage. Someone threatened the president here, and a lurker/freeper saw it and alerted the SS. To dramatize it as being any more than that, or that we are on constant watch by the SS whether there are bad posts or not, is an immensely twisted and illogical assessment of the situation. I don't know whether to laugh at it or be disgusted by it.

[Jacobin]

13. I have a hot tip for agent Mike

Check out: freerepublic.com

Its an ultra left wing (wink) website with lots of threats to harm Clinton. I don't go there, but it should be checked out.

Warning: They're pretty nutty.

[bdamomma]

15. there are of number of progressive boards are they are monitoring all

of these boards, how about the RW boards I wonder if they threaten any Democratic Senators or the Democratic Party, something to consider???

[MrCoffee]

18. i would imagine there are a number of far-right boards that get visits

on a regular basis, as well.

[originalpckelly]

26. Depending on how DU is hosted...

Skinner might be able to investigate and find out if the SS or some other agency has an automatic system to scan websites (like the google indexer) or whether they came after the two bad posters did. That way we could know if an automatic system/trolling agent or a trolling freeper found the two threads.

[mtowngman]

20. This administration can't be trusted themselves, obviously,

so they assume every one else shouldn't be trusted. I'm not breaking any new ground here by saying that this administration is the most paranoid to ever occupy the WH, so I wouldn't be at all surprised that they're monitoring this site especially. It is a "weird thing to have happening", but at this point I don't expect any of my life to be truly private. my solution: be upfront about who and what you are. Live as if you have nothing to hide. Anyone who doesn't like it, to quote an infamous rodeo clown from Texas, "Bring 'em on"

[nam78_two]

21. What two dorks?

Did they report someone?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Doubt We Are Being Monitored By The Feds

But there are sites that can't be mentioned that's raison d'etre is to comment on what is said here.

Occam's Razor. The most likely explanation is the correct one. Someone saw the post and reported it.


I blame the yahoos who issued the threats on DU... What's up with that...

[nam78_two]

24. What threats on DU? Looks like I missed something/nt

[mtowngman]

27. Skinner posted a message in Discuss explaining-

no details on which posts

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2487403

[nam78_two]

33. Thanks Demsincebirth and mtowngman/nt

[Zodiak]

43. Occam's razor is technically not what you say it is

Occam's razor says that the simplest explanation that addresses all of the known facts is the first hypothesis to test or the one thought preferable by convention. Nothing more.

from wiki (along with a LOT more explanation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
"This rephrasing has several faults, the worst being that Occam's razor is only supposed to be used to choose between two scientific theories which are otherwise equally predictive. The second problem with the "simplest is best" equation is that Occam's razor never claims to choose the 'best' theory, but only proposes simplicity as the deciding factor in choosing between two otherwise equal theories. It's possible that, given more information, the more complex theory might turn out to be correct the majority of the time. Occam's razor makes no explicit claims as to whether or not this will happen, but prompts us to use the simpler theory until we have reason to do otherwise."

Of course, wiki is not the end-all and be-all, but it suffices for this discussion. The bottom line is that we cannot apply scientific convention to human endeavors.

Occam's razor says nothing about what is correct and not correct, but a method to get a testable and proveable hypothesis. It says nothing about whether that hypotheis is "correct" or not..that is what experimentation and observation is for. Concerning the present issue, we have no evidence one way or another, so Occam's cannot be used because there are no facts other than the response from the SS.

A government agent watching this site is equally as likely as a freeper reporting what he sees here. Especially with what we know about freeper mentalities and our own government's policies.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. How optimistic of you.

I always assume that at any given moment I am being monitored, or watched. My phone is bugged. My bank account is monitered. Anyone with a camera at a demonstration is a fed.

None of that may be true, but it is always safest to believe it might be.

I would be a freakin basket case if I lived in London, with cameras on every block.

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm not being followed.

[Sinti]

30. I would suggest it's number three.

It would require far too many human resources to do the job, and people are highly imperfect. A program looking for patterns is very easy to create and deploy - drop a line in the data base that has your IP and what you said, a number to establish your "level of threat". Different patterns may have higher numbers assigned to them and so on. Next time your IP, or some other computer identifier comes up as matching a pattern that "level of threat" number goes up, if you go over the limit and they send someone out to see you. I wouldn't presume any human is watching you, however, unless they're catapulting the propaganda via the internets.

[bdamomma]

32. did you see this thread that Skinner put out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2487403&mesg_id=2487403

[originalpckelly]

37. Yes, and I didn't have any questions for Skinner or others...

I had an opinion, a comment about the matter, and since Skinner did not share with us how/what method was used to find the offending messages, I took it upon myself to post the possibilities. (Probably because they didn't tell him how they found out.)

[OneBlueSky]

36. the problem with BushCo is they don't know how to spend our $$$ . . .

they piss it away in Iraq, they piss it away monitoring political websites, they piss it away having Blackwater patrol New Orleans, they piss it away in every and any way imaginable . . .

p.s. hi, Agent Mike! . . .:hi:

[Sugar Smack]

42. This is a picture of my kitten, Sophie:

Ain't she cute?

[Sugar Smack]

46. And here's a picture of my home town:

You're welcome to visit, Agent Mike! Set a spell. :hi:

[Contrary1]

51. Come and get me...

My renegade kittie's opinion. (Takes after me.)

[Sugar Smack]

61. AW, YES!!!

That is way too cute! Fierce little furbabies they are! :loveya:

[bdamomma]

80. Aww, they are so cute, I like the one in back with his/her eyes

shut a little the calico with the white nose!! so innocent looking aren't they? I wish I was a cat sometimes. They just eat, sleep and what to be loved.

[Contrary1]

86. Yes, he is a real sweetie...

His new owner named him "Butters". There were 8 kittens in all. A real surprise,
since the stray mama showed up just hours before she gave birth. I was lucky
enough to find good inside homes for every one of them. I ended up keeping the
mother, who will not be having any more surprises. ;)

[The2ndWheel]

44. Not only can I

"You can't tell me in the 21st century, that the wizards of technology at the NSA and other government agencies can't create a system or methodology which doesn't presume guilt."

but I will.

The NSA is the National Security Agency. The CIA is the Central Intelligence Agency. These and other agencies were not created on the presumption of innocence. They, the Pentagon, DARPA, who knows what else, they were created for control. If anything, they'll get better technology with which to know whatever they want.

[Contrary1]

47. Self Delete

In wrong spot. duh.

[rzemanfl]

48. I am going to go to Washington D.C. get as close to Bush as I

possibly can then I am going to...

yell "Stay the Course my ass you fucking unelected piece of shit moron."

[bdamomma]

81. Cindy Sheehan will be there, sitting in front of WH, George's

worst nightmare, she will be there until November 8th or 9th.

[novalib]

49. Hey BUSH REGIME THUG!!!!!!

Hey BUSH REGIME THUG:

I got a message for you:

FUCK YOU!!

[Jed Dilligan]

55. Well, we can't say anything about bad things happening

to the Pretzelnut, however, let me take this opportunity to tell all law enforcement officers monitoring this site that they are SHIT-SNIVELING MONKEY-ASS LICKERS.

Hey, I still got my freedom of speech!

[cali]

60. could you be anymore of a reactionary

baby?

[Jed Dilligan]

63. Could you be any more insulting and pointless?

[SmokingJacket]

56. Of course they are!

They wouldn't be republicans if they haven't hired a bunch of interns *at least* to monitor Democratic and lefty websites -- and those folks are reporting anything that has the remotest chance of getting us in "trouble" to the Secret Service. Of course!

That's how they think!!

[Jed Dilligan]

64. Yeah, what's with all the damned saluting?

I have no respect for these "vigilant" "public" servants.

[conscious evolution]

57. What worries me is

that they could use the post to nail us for 'conspiracy'.

[bdamomma]

82. what are we conspiring to do?? what call W a few choice words

what was that thing "thought threats" they would try to arrest someone just thinking something, now that is extreme, they want to control your brain!!!now

[conscious evolution]

88. We dont have to be doing anything.

I am beginning to think of them as cornered rats ready to lash out in a desperate attempt to hold on to power.
Treatening post's could easily be used to justify branding DU as a terrorist organization.The destruction of the Constitution by these criminals was not done to fight terrorism as they would have you believe.

[DemReadingDU]

65. Bring em on!

:)

[Rex]

66. They've watched us for a lot longer then just right now.

Sad to see this as a wake up call for some DUrs.

[onenote]

67. and I suspect it will continue no matter who is in the White House

[mikelewis]

68. If I spray paint on the side of a bridge that I want to kill the President....

and I sign my name to it or leave some other obvious trail, shouldn't I expect to be investigated? How is this different. Instead of getting pissed off that they found out about the alledged crime... get pissed off at the idiots who committed the crime. Whether they found out about through a tip or through a program is really irrelevant... who knows how they found out... the fact remains, ignorant shit like that has no place on "OUR" site. If this was just a witch-hunt meant to stifle our free-speech, I'm sure the Admins would have told us that but they haven't denied the allegation that threats were made. They have demanded that the SS follow the rule of law and that is very important and should be celebrated but don't go around trying to scare people into believing "Big Brother" is trying to make us all suspects. If the SS really wanted to make us all suspects, I'm sure it wouldn't take very long for them to come knocking at my door based on some of the shit I've said.

Yes, I hate Bush... that's not illegal to say...
Yes, I wouldn't cry if he choked on a pretzel and died... that's not illegal to say...
But if I said I wanted to kill him... that would be illegal to say and should by all rights be investigated but it does not make anyone else a suspect.

This is an open forum ... a bridge on the side of the road that we are allowed to spray paint on... where we are free to say what we like as long as what we say isn't a death threat to the President of the United States... no matter how big of an asshole he is. I can't believe you can't see the distinction and what's more troubling is by engaging in this train of thought, you are doing more to stifle our sense of freedom of speech than the SS agents themselves. Let them do their jobs and let the DU admins do theirs and let truth rule out... Say whatever you like and to hell with whoever doesn't like it... but don't break the law for chrissakes! and don't blame the SS for following the law.

[pacalo]

69. I wish more of their efforts were spent on documenting WH corruption.

But, in Bushworld, wrong is right & right is wrong, so we're the enemy.

[bdamomma]

83. what did W say, Your with them or against them!!

that includes all of us.

[pacalo]

85. Some slogan for the chickenhawk who wasn't "with" his National Guard buddies

in Viet Nam. Must have been "against" the president back then. This man is wrapped in irony & hypocrisy.

[ecstatic]

70. And how much safer I feel knowing that, instead of going after real terrorists

The NSA spends their time lurking on DU boards. It's almost as absurd as the 'take off your see through sandals' rule at the airports.

[pacalo]

71. Here's some eye candy for you, Agent Mike!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. Such Alarmism. The Incident Here Is Straightforward And Simple:

Some posters posted a bunch of threating crap that was deleted as were they, appropriately by the admins. Their posts crossed the line of legality and some RW lurker saw it and as usual, reported it to the SS in hopes of an investigation. The SS looked into the offending statements and contacted the Admins to pursue further.

They aren't explicitly reading this site or searching for such posts, and it is a bit silly to read sentiments today that are trying to propagate a myth that we are all being watched and the SS is watching what we do, ready to pounce when we cross the line. That's a bunch of malarkey and you know it. This was just a very simple thing: Two posters posted threatening bullshit towards the president, someone read it and reported it. Shit happens.

But we don't need to go into some paranoid alarmist panic that the SS has been monitoring us and sifting through posts to find ones that are in non-conformance with legality. Let's be real here ok?

[Rex]

74. I find it silly that people are 'just waking up' to this kinda thing.

The FBI has been monitoring people since the Civil Rights movement why would this be any different?

Hey folks, all kinds of public and private agencies are monitoring you right now as you surf the internet - in real-time! Oh man, if some of you only knew! What are you going to do about it? Can you do anything about it? Do you even know if it is you?

Sleep well citizens.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. No One Is Monitoring You. Let Go Of The Ego.

Unless you think you're MLK or John Lennon or something, but methinks you ain't that important to 'em. :rofl:

However, if you make threats against the president, and someone reports you, I'd fully expect the SS to follow up. It's called doing their damn jobs.

[Rex]

76. Hmmm

There is always someone monitoring you! LOL! I thought you knew better. :evilgrin:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. Only The Lord Our God. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

87. Your god, not mine

I think you're wrong about monitoring--I had a political site a few years back that was systematically monitored (once a week like clockwork) even though we had all of five-ten members.

[smoogatz]

78. My theory, FWIW:

1.A couple of dumbass freepers decide they're going over to DU to pose as liberals, who, you know, are known to be extremely violent--especially the pacifist ones.

2.They decide it'd be fun to see if they can get the site shut down. How to do it? They decide (being freepers) that the cleverest possible thing they can do is to post threats against the Pretzeldent. That way the government will crack down on those stinking liberals, and throw them all into those nice new KBR concentration camps they read about on DU. As if!

3.The master plan hits a snag. The government appears not to have noticed. This shocks our little freeptards--they assumed that DU, hotbed of liberal treason that it is, would be monitored 24/7 by the Feds. What to do? They decide (being freepers) that the cleverest possible thing they can do is report their own threatening posts to the secret service. Brilliant! Now, surely, the Feds will pull the plug on that dratted and dastardly DU!

4.The master plan hits another snag. Oh no!!! Turns out, the Secret Service wants the IP addresses and other logged info for the freeper morons who made the threats! Ack!!! But wait--the guy who runs DU isn't going to give them up, he says. But wait--he may give them up if there's a subpoena!!! Ack!!!!!

Goofy as it sounds, this rings true to me. If you think about it, it's the same kind of wingnut "reasoning" that got us into Iraq.

[porphyrian]

79. We've been monitored by our government since we've been born.

It's simply a matter of degree and what constitutes privacy that makes today any different.

[mitchum]

84. I would assume the 2 posters are on the republican payroll...

it's obviously an orchestrated plot to shut down DU. The IRS will come calling next.

[tomp]

89. duh. nt