We think you should be aware that the Secret Service contacted us today.

[Skinner]

In the five-plus years since Democratic Underground was started, we have had legal issues arise on a fairly regular basis. When that happens, we almost never make any sort of public comment about it, mostly because we think giving would-be legal adversaries any unearned publicity would only encourage them. But an issue has come up this week which we feel we should probably share with you, because we think you should know what we are doing to protect your personal information.

As you are probably aware, the Democratic Underground detailed rules include this short passage:

Do not post messages that could be construed as advocating harm or death to the president or other high-ranking official in the United States government. In the case of the president, do not even post jokes, as the Secret Service is not known for its sense of humor.

Fortunately the members of DU are generally level-headed and respectful of the rules, so we have not had any problems with this issue in the past. But today we have had two separate inquiries from the Secret Service about posts on our website.

The inquiries involved three posts by two separate visitors to our website. Incidentally, both of the people in question were banned last week -- before we were aware that the Secret Service was looking into their postings. I'm not going to go into the details of the posts in question, except to say that all three of them would have been covered by the passage from the Democratic Underground rules that I posted above. (One of these posts was deleted by the moderators, two were not.)

The United States Secret Service has asked Democratic Underground to hand over any identifying or personal information we have about the two individuals in question.

HERE IS WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW:

The administrators of Democratic Underground take the privacy of our visitors very seriously. Even though the two people in question had already been banned from our website, we will not hand over any personal information from them or from any of our visitors unless we are legally compelled to do so.

After talking with the Secret Service -- who were polite and professional throughout -- we immediately contacted our lawyer to get his advice (as we always do whenever a legal issue arises). We will continue to consult with him throughout this situation so we can ensure that our rights and your rights are protected. On the advice of our lawyer, we have declined to voluntarily hand over any information about the two individuals in question. That is where matters stand at this point.

The Secret Service has informed us that they intend to get subpoenas in order to compel us to hand over the information. If and when they do, we will consult with our lawyer before we do anything.

Please feel free to post in this thread if you have any questions.

David Allen
Democratic Underground Administrator

ON EDIT: I have posted a clarification of this post here.

[SmokingJacket]

1. Thanks for the information.

Here's hoping the individuals in question were trolls...

[Skinner]

14. As I said above, they were banned last week.

Both of them showed a pattern of behavior which the moderators considered disruptive to this website. So, yeah, I guess they were trolls.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. Well done, moderators!

[Tin Man]

289. I believe the term is "agents provocateur"

Unfortunately, an all too common occurance around here...

[Tellurian]

409. It could be a setup all along..

With the volume of posts going through this site, specific posts of that sort would HAVE to be known to the SS beforehand. More than likely, the SS was testing the site for a moderating disposition of inflammatory and/or threatening posts. I believe a precedent already exists for the refusal of the turning over of telephone records. (Cingular) Which, to the best of my knowledge, has held.

Of course, a "planted" threat as an excuse to subpoena the names of people posting here is a whole different animal, and should be treated as such.

Skinner, you might want to contact the owners of Salon/Table Talk. I believe they have had this problem before with the SS.

[ikojo]

338. The could be employees of the

federal government for all we know. One of my friends said that back in the 60s he advised his friends not to say anything on the phone that you would not say to the FBI.

[liberaldemocrat7]

359. A Hindu killed Gandhi. A jew Killed Rabin.

Noone should advocate violence to anyone even if you disagree with them.

[krkaufman]

401. Interesting subject line, there

There's nothing WE can do about the abundant surplus of idiots... so I don't see why the SS is bothering US. They've got the profile they should be working from.

[Fud]

460. Dude whats up with that coin?

It takes up alot of bandwidth for dialup users and you have been trying to offload those for years all over the place.Try this smaller pic er gif.
I know you mean well and all but when i see Verizon advertised on your site that let bush wiretap anyone they feel like i just shake my head.

[Old and In the Way]

19. Exactly....why else put something like that on DU?

9 x out of 10 it is someone who wants to discredit DU. Then they can send the link to their fellow RW knuckledraggers and say, "see what these lunatics are advocating?" Pretty obvious. Now, they can explain it to the SS how they are really on their side. :LOL:

I guess we do get some serious visability by this government...I sure hope they are equally as ernest dealing with the personal threats that are de jour on most extreme RW posting sites.

[JRob]

186. "personal threats de jour on RW posting sites"

Those guys are out there... if there the slightest suggestion of anything moderate posted on these sites, they nuke it immediately and attach photos of snipers, car bombs and mushroom clouds etc. as if "this is going to be you, where coming for you". I'd love to see some of them taken down, exposed misrepresenting themselves on that level... more fuel for the pyre.

[Qutzupalotl]

24. And if they were trolls, F' em.

I don't consider them members worthy of protection. If they were sent here by somebody high up in the RNC, that should come out.

I realize it would set a bad precedent to release their info, but if it's just this once and just those two (trolls), I'm okay with it.

Breaking this law is stupid. I believe I saw the thread in question and tried to warn people.

[Susang]

86. Everyone is entitled to that kind of protection

Whether you consider them "worthy" or not.

Giving up information like this is how it starts. Don't you realize this?

[Richard Steele]

But if they were deliberately abusing their anonymity to harm DU?

What "protection" do they deserve then?

And bear in mind, the Secret Service has made it
clear that they are going to get a SUBPEONA for
the personal info.

That's not "how it starts", that's how it is SUPPOSED TO BE.
That's how a fair and transparent system of justice is supposed to work.

[primavera]

162. I'll go along with that

DU is a public venue, posts to it enjoy no inviolable privilege of the attorney-client, doctor-patient, or priestly sort. That doesn't mean that the Secret Service is entitled to the private information of DUers merely to satisfy their curiosity or on a whim - and I applaud DU for requiring the Secret Service to go through channels as the law requires - but if they're able to convince a judge that they have sufficient probable cause to justify issuing a subpoena, then that is due process. It's not perfect, but still, it is the due process we have in this country; it wouldn't be like corners were being cut.

[mistertrickster]

294. I agree. It's more likely they were RW's intending to tar us with the

brush of "Bush haters" than real members.

Let 'em hang. There ARE limits to free speech. For instance, how many of us would approve of using the N word (racial epithet) or the "k*ke" word (anti-semetic) in the name of "free speech?"

We understand that free speech doesn't allow hate speech, and we willingly abide by those limits to live in a civilized society.

Skinner shouldn't go to jail to protect disruptive troll law-breakers. If the Secret Service gets their subpoena, then let the record show that asshats will get no protection from our side.

[badgerpup]

321. There's free speech, there's courtesy, and there's transparency...

They're all related, but they're not the same thing, by any means.
Doesn't it indicate fairness and transparency when even the rights of 'trolls' are covered by the privacy clause?

What does that say about the rights of us non-trolls and members in good standing...who sometimes get a little hot under the collar and over the keyboard, 'but weren't doing anything wrong'?

Thanks, Skinner! :hi: :loveya:



edited because I can't count...:dunce:
:kick:

[w4rma]

233. First they came...

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
after all I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

[Richard Steele]

259. And when they came for...

...the FReeper scum who posted THREATS against
the POTUS here, in an attempt to make ME look bad,
I remained silent.
BECAUSE I'M COMPLETELY IN FAVOR OF THAT.

To even COMPARE such unAmerican, freedom-hating disruptors
to the innocent folks oppressed and killed by the Nazis
is, at best, RIDICULOUS.

The Secret Service are the GOOD GUYS in this scenario.
And I hope the scummy little trolls they are investigating
(in a completely legal and aboveboard fashion, BTW)
get everything that's coming to them.

[Susang]

300. They didn't have a subpeona in the first place

And felt no need for one until after the information was refused to them. This is the same administration who has sent the Secret Service to the homes of school children because of their art projects and to demonstrators exercising their legitimate 1st amendment right to free speech. I apologize if I don't have the trust in their "fair and transparent system of justice" as you seem to. What has been fair or transparent about our government or criminal justice system in the past 6 years?

As I said in a previous post, I am not intending to be melodramatic, I've just been paying attention. I happen to believe that our privacy trumps a couple of online trolls random blatherings, I apologize if you disagree.

[Richard Steele]

377. It seems that you and I agree about the PRINCIPLEs involved...

...we are just failing to see eye-to-eye on the definition
of the NATURE of this particular situation.

I certainly have no rose-colored blind faith in our
"fair and transparent system of justice"; I simply
enjoy seeing it to the extent that it actually exists.

And it seems that, as the situation has been described to
us by Skinner, it is actually in force here and now. The
RULES that prohibit violations of our privacy are being followed
by the Agents investigating this case.

OUR PRIVACY does indeed trump "a couple of online trolls random blatherings".
That's why OUR PRIVACY is not being called into question here.

The Agents investigating the very real CRIME of "threatening the President"
are NOT seeking the personal info of every DUer;
they are following well-established legal procedure in the performance
of their SWORN DUTY to investigate threats against the POTUS.

They ASKED Skinner for the personal info on the 'blathering troll' suspects;
Skinner informed them that the DU 'User Agreement' prohibited him
from sharing that info voluntarily.

At which point, they politely informed Skinner
that they will seek to obtain the required Court Order necessary
to "violate the privacy" of the SPECIFIC blathering trolls who
are the subjects of their investigation.

That's what a 'subpeona' _IS_, you know. It's a limited license
to violate someone's privacy, issued by a Court of LAW, when and
if that Court is shown EVIDENCE that the "public interest" in a
specific situation is compelling enough to outweigh an individual's right
to privacy.

I, for one, fail to smell the slightest WHIFF of Brown Shirts here.
I am happy to see that the Agents involved in this case
are going about it "by the book".
Because that "book" they are "doing it by" was written by a long
series of LIBERALS who spent entire lifetimes pondering the best
way to balance the God-given "right to privacy" against our
law-enforcement agencies' DUTY to serve the public.

[mom cat]

302. It is not about the trools deserving squat. It is about all of us having

some minimal protection from the emperor and his brownshirts. We need to stand and fight this invasion of our privacy.

[bigbrother05]

360. Hear, Hear!

Wish the phone companies had similar ethics (and balls).

[mom cat]

416. Hear hear for Skinner. Stand and fight!

[truth2power]

238. I'm sitting here

eating a sandwich and scrolling through this thread; thinking to myself, "This is how it starts."

...Then I come to your post. Great minds think alike, I guess... :shrug:

[Susang]

288. Thanks, I appreciate that

"This is how it starts" was the first thing that leapt to my mind as well. Not trying to be melodramatic, I just know how things work. ;-)

[Ian David]

244. It isn't just about protecting them. It's about protecting us.

By demanding at least a subpoena, you're doing several things:

1) Making sure they really think the issue is worth their time. By sending them off to get a subpoena, they're saying, "Hey, this is worth paying a lawyer $200 per hour to write some documents and talk to a judge." Otherwise, they could just go around politely inquiring into every little thing. For example, homeless people in Miami who just want free boots, a guy who wants to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge wit a pair of scissors, and people posting worst-case scenario terror plots between penis jokes... you know. Stupid shit.

2) It establishes a paper trail declaring what they want and why. Also, it makes it harder for them to make someone "disappear" if there is a paper trail.

3) It covers DU's ass so they don't get sued by the suspects.

4) If we let the camel's nose into the tent for free, soon they'll be asking for all the info on everyone.

5) Due process is for everyone. Even freeper trolls. "First they came for the freepers, and I didn't speak-up, because my parents were not brother and sister..."

For what it's worth, I for one, pledge to never ever harm any elected official of our government.

[Infomaniac]

262. First they came for the freepers, and I didn't speak up, because...

my parents were not brother and sister....

You made my day. Thanks for the laugh.

[orleans]

393. #5!!! hysterical! i laughed out loud. thanks. n/t

[John Gauger]

453. This is exactly right.

All these reasons are true.

[dogday]

247. So all those Hi Agent Mike post were real!!!

Hi to Agent Mike and all the other SS who are visiting our wonderful site today... :hi:

[Dorian Gray]

390. Hee....

I was just thinking that! Hello Secret Service man! :hi:

I hope that your job is not getting you down, and that you have some fun time to relax on weekends! It must really suck having to follow up on these threats, too! Relax! Have a sandwich! Unwind! :) There will always be jerks out there, but most of us at DU are good people who truly only want the best for our country!

[orleans]

392. (but how do we know his name is really mike?)

:sarcasm:

[John Gauger]

454. His name's Mike now

I kind of like the idea of being called by the wrong name. This guy now has a totally new persona. I always wanted to by a Kyle myself. I have it all planned out. I know exactly what I would be like if I were Kyle. He gets to start over with a clean slate, because nobody here knows him.

[John Gauger]

292. Absolutely right.

Either you believe in rights for people you disagree with, or you don't believe in them at all. We can't just deny rights to those whom we dislike. I shouldn't have to explain why that's wrong, so I won't.

What's more, how do we know they were here to discredit us? Such a claim bears the burden of proof. Without evidence, it can be summarily dismissed.

[AikidoSoul]

336. Threatening POTUS is serious - What the Federal Statute says

I'm more worried about Skinner's legal problems more than anything else. He is the one that is being put on the spot, and has the most to lose. What are we asking him do exactly folks? Are we asking him to protect someone who broke a federal law? I would worry that if he does so then he might be considered complicit and be indictable. Did you know that threatening POTUS is a federal crime? If there was a threat on DU, posted by some trolling Repupugnic....to discredit DU, tell me exactly again.....why should Skinner put himself into such a horrible position?

Skinner is consulting his attorney as he should. Now for God's sake lets get real here and realize that there are real consequences even for the innocent bystander who listens or reads such a threat, especially if a federal law is CLEARLY broken and you refuse to cooperate. Now I didn't see the post from the Repugnant one, but I'm getting that he/she clearly did make a threat -- if so then nobody in his/her right mind should refuse to cooperate with the Secret Service.

Seeing the law as it is written might make for the cold light of day on this topic:

The Threat Statute US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 41, Sec. 871
"Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

a The statutory fine associated with this Federal felony is capped at $250,000. The court conducts a balancing test to determine whether and what amount to impose as financial punishment in addition to any period of incarceration.

Holy crap! Am I just being paranoid here? Is Skinner going to get in trouble? Do we want to protect the Repugnican troll for putting Skinner and DU at risk?

Uh, uh. There are limits on free speech, and that is one of them. According to the law as stated above, it is a very serious limit indeed.


:loveya: Skinner. Consult with your attorney and stay within the law. Let the Repugnant idiot fry for committing a crime. If he thought putting us all at risk was funny, then he deserves to cry a little...and oh yeah... it's a crime. Did I already say that?

[suziedemocrat]

341. Exactly - I'm not sure Skinner should risk his ass for a couple of freepers.

A long time ago I saw a thread where some guy (with very few posts) kept saying it's time to get violent or something. Some people tried to talk him out of it, but most saw his posts as suspicious. I mean, for the most part Democrats are into passive resistance, and we've got too much brain power to resort to violence - the tool of idiots. These guys were clearly trying to bring down DU and I'm not sure they are worth protecting. While it is very noble of Skinner to do that, I'm not sure I would.

[Skinner]

346. Don't worry about us or about Democratic Underground. We'll be fine.

We are consulting closely with our attorney. We are going to make sure our rights and our members' rights are protected. But we're not going to do anything foolish.

[Nordmadr]

420. Rights? I'm not so sure there are all that many rights left to

protect.

Olafr

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

389. An individual is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law

Not "guilty because the Secret Service comes knocking at your door." If we don't exercise our legal rights fully each time they are challenged the government will chip away until there's nothing left that remotely resembles "freedom."

Does someone who posts on a blog have a legal right to privacy? It's an interesting question, and one I don't think has been addressed by the Supreme Court yet.

[AikidoSoul]

428. Innocent until proven -- not arguing against that at all

The only point is that if anyone on DU made a threat to kill the prez --that is a crime. Period. It should not be that difficult to determine whether that was done or not. And if it was someone playing what he/ she thought was prank to discredit DU and cause havoc -- then that person should be ready for a rude awakening. The SS will investigate to determine whether the threat was real or not. No matter, it's very serious -- and I worry very much that Skinner will suffer because of the dweeb idiot who did this. Whoever did this is destructive and probably very stupid. DU is a wonderful place... the people here for the most part really think, and there is a great dynamic where knee jerk reactions to anything are tempered with thinking. I've been longing for a place like this for awhile now, and though I'm new to this group, I'm very enamored of the participants and the methods of interaction. I just wish I didn't have to work so I could participate more often. Right now I should be doing office stuff, not DU stuff, but I'm very concerned about this. The idea that some idiot could threaten Skinner and/or the DU forum, makes me furious.

:mad:

[John Gauger]

452. I never said it wasn't a crime.

I was affirming a response to someone who said that the "troll" (again, such accusations bear the burden of proof; if none can be offered, then the accusation should be dismissed) does not have the same rights and protections as the rest of us. This country's legal system is based around the concept that all people have equal rights under the law. Skinner does not have to assist in a legal investigation unless compelled to by law. He has a responsibility to protect the privacy of this site's users. I know if the government comes asking for information from me, they had better bring some incentive. I understand how serious this crime is. since it is so serious, the Secret Service will get a warrant or a subpoena. Then there will be no problem with complying.

[Qutzupalotl]

307. No one is free to threaten the president. nt

[Susang]

309. Perhaps you should read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2487403&mesg_id=2489698

This is the protection I was talking about. Sorry if you disagree.

[Qutzupalotl]

316. Understood.

They should get a subpoena no matter what. But it would be pointless to fight it if they have one.

[populistdriven]

361. so long as the subpoena is not overly broad

[orleans]

394. right. look at that 14 year old girl the fbi hauled out of class a couple

weeks ago. i guess they showed her!

[vapidave]

442. Enemy Combatants?

Bush signed HR 2D so he can lock em up and there isn't even a
key he needs throw away.

[Drum]

2. Thank you

for the information,
for the reminder,
and
for your protections of privacy of posters to DU.

:thumbsup:

[WI_DEM]

3. Thank you for the information. While we dislike Bush and his policies

I don't think any of us want the man to be assassinated or anything like that. A simple impeachment would do.

[wakeme2008]

12. Myself I like frog marched to the Hague

But it is interesting and I wonder how many people the SS has reading this site. :shrug:

[Donailin]

363. I wonder how many

are posting to this site.

This is very disturbing, in any case.

[petepillow]

38. I agree, there's no justice in something like that. We need to be able to

watch these criminals live out their punishment so the world can follow along with their humiliating prison-existance.

[demwing]

I would like him to be personally embarrassed

then humiliated internationally, then impeached. Then his mama should ground him for a week.

But I would never hope that any physical harm ever came to anyone.

[TahitiNut]

63. The LAST thing I'd ever want is his assassination. He'd be a martyr.

That's exactly what I expect in mid-2008, however ... and for that very reason. It's the only way the Reich can turn him into an asset from being a horrible liability.

I want to see him safely imprisoned for his war crimes, BEFORE he can be martyred!

[rodeodance]

265. I think that fill about Jr getting shot went over the board also.

[TahitiNut]

271. "JR getting shot"? Dallas? "Who shot JR?"

:freak:

[Solly Mack]

4. Thank you for standing up for the privacy of your members

and Thank you for being open about what's going on.

[babylonsister]

5. Thanks for sharing, Skinner. I'm just surprised

they're asking for info instead of just getting it the new old-fashioned way via the NSA.

[leveymg]

141. Likely already have. First they sneak n'peak, then they ask.

Then they produce warrants. I would be very surprised if this whole site, and everyone who visits, hasn't been mapped out and integrated into a dozen USG data bases.

That isn't my paranoia. It's just how they do things these days. No one should have any expectation of privacy for what is posted on an internet site. Our "personal" data held by Admin may have some legal protection, but not enough to withstand an administrative warrant.

But, the Secret Service really doesn't need the warrant in order to determine who posted the offending messages. It's in the tapes kept at every ISP they linked to the internet. The NSA routinely scours those records, and provides that information to other USG agencies pursuant to the Patriot Act. No warrant needed.

In itself, mass, indicriminate warrantless monitoring of internet communications of U.S. persons is a criminal violation of the FISA and federal wiretap statutes, as well as a grave offense against our collective First Amendment liberties. Those high officials who ordered these crimes should be indicted, tried and sent to prison for the rest of their miserable lives. If that's advocating violence against officials, so be it.

[hunter]

167. That's a good take.

Essentially the Secret Service is stopping by to say "hello."

When they come by with the proper papers, that's when you invite them in.

But basically they may be documenting what they already know.

Their paperwork has to be clean, but their underlying methods don't. They are going to tell the judge "we got this information from Skinner," not "this came up on our queue."

[leveymg]

180. Exactly.

After January, I expect Congress to issue a bunch of subpoenas, give them unrelenting hell for this, and cut off their funding, if need be, until they come into conformity with FISA.

Come January 2009, I hope they face a Grand Jury.

[Sasha Undercover]

325. Grand Jury?

In truth I think we'll need a modern-day equivalent of the Nuremberg trials, outside of the country.

[Retrograde]

230. but this is a public forum

I know I read it for quite a while before I registered. I'm not sure it's all sneak and peak: for all we know there are Secret Service agents who think like most of us here and read the forums on their own time. Maybe some of them are even registered users! If the Secret Service is reading something that's accessible to pretty much the whole world, that's fine by me.

Back in my management days, I used to tell my staff not to put anything in email that they wouldn't want to see splashed on the front page of the local paper. That applies even more so to public discussion groups, whether your posting under a screen name or not.

For what it's worth, I want Bush to serve out the rest of his term - with a Democratic House and Senate.

[leveymg]

273. It's perfectly legal for Officer Mike to read the site. This is like a newspaper,

we can hardly complain if the feds read the DU Daily if we hand it out on streetcorners.

In fact, the FISA violation has to do with the retention and use of data related to the phone calls, e-mails, and surfing habits of USG persons by the NSA. FISA essentially required NSA to "minimize" (erase) data intercepted from U.S. persons for whom there is no probable cause to seek either a criminal warrant or a FISA warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC).

In the last couple years, we've learned that the government simply intercepts and stores all that data and sends it out to private IT contractors who "mine" it using supercomputers and complex software. DHS and other agencies use this to create predictive profiling and other products that are essentially the fruits of illegal searches. That's a violation of federal law, but they do it, anyway.

Officer Mike, I'm glad you're reading this. Please pass it up your chain of command. On behalf of DU, we demand that federal agencies cease and desist such warrantless surveillance activities, and make a full confession to Representative Waxman's office. His staff will schedule you for a hearing date.

See you in the funny papers.

[kestrel91316]

142. (kestrel wondering when Skinner and Elad are going to

be waterboarded until they talk.......)

[BOSSHOG]

6. Thanks very much for this information

The secret service is nonpartisan. Don't threaten the life of the president whomever it might be.

Your efforts on our behalf are greatly appreciated.

[Virginian]

400. Excellent point. I was wondering if anyone would address that.

The Secret Service protects the POTUS and deals with counterfeiters. They are work for the treasury department.
Maybe the FBI would be the brownshirts who would sneak and peak, but I think the Secret Service is busy protecting the presidency from enemies domestic and foreign.
Bush may be unpopular, but only someone insane or a fool would want Cheney to ascend to the presidency.

Come to think of it, don't UPS drivers have brown shirts? Maybe they are the sneak and peak guys. ;) ;-) ;) :evilgrin:

[Bonobo]

7. Is there any chance thay they could compel you to hand over info

and THEN ON TOP OF IT, bind you to a confidentiality agreement so that you can't even tell us that OUR PRIVACY has been compromised? That's what scares me... (among many things)

[riderinthestorm]

8. Thanks for the info, your security and your reminder

Still scary though....

:scared:

[ThomCat]

9. We knew the government was monitoring DU.

Here's proof.

Thank you taking a stand for our privacy. Many of us are not terribly private here, but it's still nice to know there is a barrier there.

[KittyWampus]

22. Government Monitoring? It's just as likely some Freeper read the crap and informed

the Secret Service. It's also likely a Freeper POSTED the crap in the first place.

[robbedvoter]

48. Rather some freeper POSTED the crap, then alerted

I just read your full post. I know for a fact that they did that on the old Barcop forum.

[blm]

118. Absolutely, they post inflammatory remarks and then feed them to Rush

or Malkin. It's always apparent to me when someone goes over the top in an intentional way. Most of us are way too cognizant of government monitoring and too steeped in the concept of honest debate to go that route.

[LTR]

403. Well, anyone who cherrypicks anonymous posts on a board with 100,000 people...

...are idiots anyway. And far from being journalists.

Yes, I'm talking about that Tarantula guy from the WSJ too!

Malkin should stick to shooting ping pong balls out of her coochie. Rush should go back to the Dominican and shag little boys.

Sorry, it's getting pretty late.

[nam78_two]

149. Thats what I was thinking

I once saw one that repeatedly was calling for violence and it was clear s/he was just baiting people here and trying to get people to agree with them. No one took the bait.
I called him/her out on their trolling/trollery(?) and the ID was banned a few hours later anyway.

[LostinVA]

224. That's what I think happened, too

[Fud]

456. Yes that did happen

Some guy made a joke about boosh on the forum. It wasn't a threat even and got a visit from the SS. That was when the bartcop forum was on network54 and they caved in like verizon. That member was banned not just for that but for being a dickwad as well.

He told the story about how the SS spooks were looking for him and he finally got cornered and questioned and let go after a few hours. You don't joke about stuff like that just like you don't joke about a bomb when you are in an airport. It's just common sence unless um say you are an idiot?

Funny though isn't it seeing in the past tons of threats againt Clinton at freeperville and nothing happens at all.

Far as i'm concerned everyone is responsible for their own posts and no one else should be implicated for one or two idiots.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

240. Exactly

[LuckyLib]

335. Of course they are. The FBI had files and photos during the late 60's of anti-war

protesters from every corner of the country. None of us thought we weren't "in the database" even in those techno-primitive days.

[Liberal In Texas]

353. They don't need to "monitor" one particular web site.

They can use search engines and see what the net brings up on LOTS of websites.

This website is probably monitored, but not by the SS, more like the GOP political strategists keeping an eye on the opposition.

[Swede]

10. Thanks Skinner

No doubt the banned members were agent provocateurs.

[Blue-Jay]

11. What was the method in which they were made aware of the posts?

I'm sure they didn't say (nobody's business really), but are they reading the board on a regular basis, or did one of our lovely RW douchebag lurkers send a few links to the SS?

[Catherine Vincent]

31. I'm guessing it was the later. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. More Than Likely, Some Repub Lurker Alerted On It. But That Is A

deflection of the real issue. The real issue is that such things shouldn't be posted to begin with. Posting things advocating violence against others, especially the president, shows the utmost of irresponsibility. I'm glad the ones who posted such things were banned. Stuff like that gets used against us to define our whole community and is used to attempt to make us all look like psycho nuts. It drives me nuts when I see posts that are so reckless.

[Blue-Jay]

53. It wasn't a deflection. Merely curiousity.

I'm well aware of the actual issue here.

[Susang]

93. Questions are not deflections

[angstlessk]

13. How very scary...I do appreciate your stand on this issue.

And I agree wholly with your rules regarding the issue. For anyone to post such vile stuff is causing YOU problems.

How very selfish of those posters!

Posting this will be a DOUBLE warning about posting any sort of threat about ANYONE!

[bobthedrummer]

15. You are taking the best possible approach, all things considered.

Not only did those banned posters violate our rules, they could have been provocateurs noted by their appearance during elections.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Thanks For The Heads Up And Reminders To Post Responsibly.

This is a website that is full of intelligent ideas and valuable insight into what we need to do as a party and as a country. Unfortunately some take hate a bit too far and cross the line with calls of violence or revolution. I'm sorry to hear that you guys have to go through this inquiry right now due to someone else's irresponsibility and immaturity. Hang in there Skinner. You and the others have put together the most informative and addictive progressive forum on all the web. I just hope some that post here will think a bit more prior to posting things that make our whole community look bad and that even can cross the line of legality. I hope this thread is a wake up call to some in order to get them to realize that message board or not, there are still certain issues of common sense and responsibility that should be heeded when posting.

Again, sorry you guys have to deal with this shit right now, especially during a time that requires such focus on other things.

[lisainmilo]

396. Agreed! could not have said it better myself!

Hang in there, sorry you all have to go through this!

[ItNerd4life]

448. Well said, but MindCrime?

I lol'd at your name, what does it stand for? Nvm, I'll just leave it to my imagination. :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

451. It's The Name Of An Amazing Queensryche Album.

Listened to it the day I signed up, and several of the tunes have some lyrics that still speak true of our situation today. When it came time to choose a name, that's what was freshest in my head. :)

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Thanks Skinner.

[KoKo]

18. Thanks...........

I suppose it's a good sign they didn't ask for more than those they targeted. And, appreciate your stand on this.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. They must monitor this site pretty closely

if they caught those posts.

They could at least volunteer to be mods if they are going to spend so much time here.

[nam78_two]

211. I think someone tipped them off in this instance

I just saw posts about it in a couple of places-people chortling with glee over how they socked it to DU :eyes: and saying they called the SS serveral times about posters on DU.

Talk about needing a life :eyes:

[DoYouEverWonder]

221. I hope you sent the links

to Skinner & Co.

I would be nice to trace this crap back to the freepers if that's the case.

[Homer Wells]

234. I think the Freepers posted these messages themselves

and then notified the SS as to what someone on DU was saying.

If Skinner is compelled to reveal their identities, it could well blow right up in the posters face.
I do appreciate your heads-up though, Skinner.

Good to know you have our back.

Steve

:hi: :toast:

[Catherine Vincent]

21. I think you should give them what they are asking for.

The banned members were probably freeper trolls, so who cares? It serves them right.

[BuyingThyme]

172. No, no, no, please. There's good reasons for doing it right.

Let's say that you were a dishonest Secret Service agent who was charged with obtaining member information that you have no right to. What would you do?

Well, you might post something really bad (like a death threat) in that members thread, or in response to one of that member's comments. You might even try to chide that member into joining in on the fun.

Then, when you approach the administrators for information, you pretend that you're seeking information on the poster (yourself), when you're actually seeking information on the member.

It's kinda like Dick Cheney and the NSA spying. Cheney started illegal spying on Americans before 9/11, but now uses 9/11 as his excuse for illegal spying.

[lpbk2713]

23. K&R

:kick:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

26. Thank you for letting us know, Skinner..........

You're doing the excellent and responsible thing by responding to the Secret Service as you did.

[pwb]

27. so nsa is watching us all???

i guess we should all wish bush the best of health and happiness.
i remember how loved clinton was all those years on the net.
did the secret service contact you then?

[ceile]

28. Thanks, Skinner

for letting us know.

[CorpGovActivist]

29. If Your Lawyers Need Help...

... please feel free to contact me.

I can put them in touch with some heavy hitters (who lean Dem) in DC.

Thanks for the heads-up.

- Dave

[Kadie]

30. Thank you Skinner!

:hi:

[AspenRose]

33. Wow

:wow:

Maybe this should be tacked up to the top instead of a regular thread

[calimary]

243. Excellent idea. So EVERYONE can see it for the duration.

This is one thread that shouldn't sink.

Thank you Skinner and everybody for your vigilance and proper behavior.

[swimboy]

34. Many thanks to you for how you are handling this

and the other incidents that have come up. I have great respect for your standards.

[Jack Rabbit]

35. Thank you for the information. It's good to know this.

For my part, I only advocate incarceration of war criminals, including the former governor of Texas and current presumptive president, after a fair trial which is an inalienable human right.

[Throwing Stones]

74. Fair Trial

I'm all for fair trials and uncoerced confessions, but I'd be willing to make exceptions in the case of certain people who don't believe in habeus corpus and think that waterboarding isn't torture.

[Jack Rabbit]

161. I wouldn't

After all, doing exactly that would be among the charges against him.

That's a discussion for another thread.

[nam78_two]

166. No thanks-thats the logic used on the right side of the aisle

No exceptions in these matters. Thats why there is a concept of blind justice. Everyone deserves a fair trial, including people we dislike.

[Throwing Stones]

324. yes, but

when you play Calvinball, you have to live (or die) by the rule(s) you create.

No doubt that w and darth could easily be convicted under the real rule of law, but I love the irony of convicting them under there own rules.

[thingfisher]

78. Thanks for the heads up and your policy.

In our divided country the level of tension, frustration and irritation is showing in the public forum. Perhaps we will begin to appreciate the fact that so called pundits like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and others do little but cast gasoline on the smoldering fire of public discourse.

American are hard up for some plain old truth. The continuation of a "national security" lock down on information that should be open to public scrutiny will only water the seeds of mistrust that have sprung forth over the past decades.

As the government continues to grow more and more distant from the concerns of its citizens while serving the desires of its corporate constituents we can expect the frustrations of the disenfranchised to intensify. Many such people say things in the heat of discourse that they certainly don't mean to be literal. In this day and age however it is wise for all of us to maintain our equilibrium no matter how much the deck is swaying beneath our feet. It is obvious that the organs of state security are listening and watching very closely. One would hope that they are doing the same to forums that are to the right of DU as well.

[solara]

36. Thank you for your diligence and honesty n/t

[Penndems]

37. Thank you for posting this, Skinner.

As much as we dislike Bush and this Administration's policies (or a lack thereof), posting threats is most definitely verboten.

What idiot would do something like that?

[readmoreoften]

39. Thanks Skinner. And as Joey Lawrence said on Saved by the Bell:

Whoa.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

283. Yeah, that wasn't saved by the bell...

That was Blossom.

[mainegreen]

40. Awww, agent Mike IS reading our posts.

Hope we've made a convert or two from some of them.

[supernova]

46. Just what I was thinking

:hi: Agent Mike! :D

[wryter2000]

Hi, Agent Mike

:hi: Keep doing a good job here, or the higher-ups will reassign you to that other site. :scared: We're too fond of you to let that happen.

[undeterred]

52. I hope they don't read my Lounge posts.

:blush:

[Mutley]

55. I wonder how they take any of us seriously after reading

the Lounge. :rofl:

I :loveya: the Lounge. :D

[undeterred]

73. I wonder what kind of bath toys the Secret Service people use?

:shrug:

[Mutley]

312. Actually, I wanted to know what they think of kudzu.

:D

[Critters2]

318. They're bullish on it

It's going places....and the Secret Service is watching it as it does.

[ikojo]

339. I wonder if they have any cat

pics to post in a picture thread.

[Critters2]

437. I wonder if their cats wear dark suits and sunglasses

and have little mics in their ears.

[bdamomma]

41. thanks for telling us.

thanks for having moderators, we do sometimes say things in the "heat of the moment" that should not be construed as hostile.

[datadiva]

42. Thank you for reminding us to be vigilant

and for protecting us.

[BuyingThyme]

43. Skinner, thank you so much for posting this. (Questions)

You've answered some of the questions which I've always asked myself about such requests. I wonder how often people just hand over the information without even understanding what they're doing. You really, really, hit the mark.

Two questions: (1) Does "personal information" include any and all log-on/access information? (2) Does "personal information" exclude any of the user information which DU has logged or otherwise stored?

[Skinner]

62. To be honest, I don't know how much information they will ask for.

So I can't speak for the Secret Service.

But from the standpoint of Democratic Underground, we consider any information about you to be privileged if it is not publicly available on the website. Things like the content and frequency of your posts is public, but how often you log on to our site would be private.

[BuyingThyme]

89. I would argue that vast majority of (post) data in your database

is not publicly available, but only available to the people who make a donation and thus have access to search privilege for the purposes outlined your user agreement.

[Skinner]

97. Technically yes.

To be clear: I'm not going to hand over any information to anyone unless I'm forced to do so. But you need to keep in mind that almost everything you've ever posted is available to the public. If someone wants to make a nominal donation and search our database for all the posts by BuyingThyme, there is nothing I can do about it.

On the Internet always be careful with your personal information.

[Justice Is Comin]

115. That's what you deserve credit for more than anything.

They think they can just show up and make their own rules. Guess they got a little get-a-warrant training 101 from DU.

They found libraries a little more testy than they expected too. Kudos for your integrity and giving the example of what our constitution stands for.

[elehhhhna]

254. LOL. If they knew how much some of us are on here they'd know

we're on our behind most of the day and hardly a threat.

Smartasses, though. Lotsa those.

[laylah]

304. Glad to hear THAT

Skinner because I never log off! :rofl: Would that be considered numerous log-ins or a very long one?

Thanks for all you do and for having our backs covered. I do not know of the offending posts you refer to but scum like the objects of the SS inquiries do not know about honor OR integrity...no wonder they were busted and tombstoned almost immediately.

:grouphug: to my DU family.

Jenn

[matcom]

44. But did they make a donation?

its the least they could do :D

Thanks Skinner

[Generic Other]

348. When we get to Gitmo, I dibs the top bunk.

I certainly feel more secure as an American knowing that the Secret Service keeps our president safe by monitoring chatter at DU.

Skinner, I applaud you. And proudly stand beside you.

:patriot:

[leftofthedial]

45. whew.

scary stuff.

[ninkasi]

47. Thank all of you, Skinner

I know you and the mods try to keep inappropriate posts deleted, and ban those who disrupt. The rules here at DU are very clear, and all are appropriate. I know you must have to keep a very close watch on what some posters say, because knowing the the two posters were banned from DU, tells me that that were not democrats, but trolls.

These next two weeks are going to be very intense, and I think it's a good thing for all of us to watch saying anything that would harm DU. Emotions will be high, which is exactly the time to take a deep breath and pause before you post.

[William769]

49. It's nice to know someone in the Federal Government knows about

DU's existence!

[supernova]

50. Thank you Skinner

I know you, Elad and EarlG are doing everything you can.

Keep up the great work! :thumbsup:

[Buttercup McToots]

56. Thank you

I am on here alot...I don't remember anything like that...

[Debi]

51. Thanks Skinner

And thanks to the mods for doing their thankless jobs.

And hello the the Secret Service who obviously read several posts on DU on a regular basis :hi:

Will you keep us posted if the SS does issue a subpoena for the records?

Thanks again.

Debi :yoiks:

[Skinner]

72. We intend to let you know if we get a subpoena or subpoenas.

But since I've never been subpoenaed before, I don't know what to expect. So I can't make any promises.

[Debi]

85. Thanks again, Skinner!

I'm sure this is all very....interesting for everyone! :bounce:

You are all doing a great job! :thumbsup:

[Tesha]

95. Remember: the ACLU is your friend. (NT)

[bdamomma]

103. Yes, is the ACLU aware of this???

[Tesha]

131. There's probably no cause for action yet, but after the subpoenas arrive...

There's probably no cause for action yet, but after the subpoenas
arrive you'll be able to better decide what to do.

Of course, if you just happen to run into Anthony Romero or
Nadine Strossen on the street...

Tesha

[BlueStorm]

54. Thanks for the heads up Skinner.

As much as I loathe Bush, I would never wish harm on the man. Perhaps incarceration and being held accountable for his actions but never any harm. He is a human being after all, not the greatest one but nevertheless a living, breathing human being.

Blue

[RaleighNCDUer]

133. Human? Let's not get carried away here.

Neandertal, maybe.

[BlueStorm]

150. Ok I guess I could go with that. n/t

[hedgehog]

313. Hey - don't blame the Neadertals

We aren't responsible for Bush!

[NewInNewJ.]

57. Keep up the good work!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. I Think I Saw The Posts In Question.

It doesn't matter who dropped the dime on them. This is a public site. Anybody could see the writings. Threatening the president of the United States on a highly publicized website, whoever he or she may be, is morally wrong, potentially illegal, and reckless

When I saw the post I couldn't believe somebody could be that stupid.

Why somebody would invite that kind of scrutiny to this site and themselves is beyond me.

[marions ghost]

99. a set-up to create problems perhaps?

Nefarious attempt to compromise DU? Whatever, after the loss of individual protections we have seen, one has to be on the side of not giving info to authorities unless proper legal procedures are followed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I'm Not Speaking To The Subpoena...

I'm speaking to the idiot(s) who used DU to threaten the president.

Anybody with an I Q over 100 knows internet privacy is a myth and you don't threaten the president...


I realize and I hope everybody reading this post realizes if you post on the net and somebody wants to find out who you are the chances are that he or she eventually can , with the right skills and resources...

Be careful and circumspect. There are certain terms I am even loathe to google...

[marions ghost]

129. OK I understand

Just saying that I don't think some low IQ idiot did this--it's more likely on purpose IMO to try to discredit or cause trouble for DU.

[kentuck]

148. Perhaps they were plants??

We know how some in this government operate. They even suggested putting UN symbols on spy planes as an excuse to invade another country.

[elehhhhna]

264. Threatening ANYBODY is inappropriate. There's only enough law enforcement

to go around, ya know? They can evidently check out only so much. That's why Anne Coulter, Pat Robertson, etc. can wish horrible things on Dem public figures on LIEV TV and get away with it.

If you ARE reading, SS, pls pm me. A kid in our county offed himself w/ a gun at school last week, and the website HE was on regularly is devoted to a bunch of teens posting, I kid you not, instructs. on making bombs, blowing up your enemies or neighbors house, etc. The departed high schooler even posted pics of himself (w/ instructions) climbng the top of an electrical tower near here. It's probably all still there. He evidently threatened to harm himself many times on that site, from what I can gather. Law enforcement might want to look at it.

[necso]

59. Do you need to collect a legal fund?

This is a difficult issue; and the circumstances deserve consideration, in addition to considering the general issue of protecting the privacy of (in this case, former) members.

Requiring a subpoena is reasonable, and it's also one's right. Moreover, theoretically at least, obtaining a subpoena should mean that there's some substance to the "case" (assertion). Of course, these days I wouldn't try to take that to the bank.

[Skinner]

87. At this point our "legal fund" is our regular operating expenses.

So you are welcome to donate. :)

Generally, our legal expenses are fairly consistent and fairly reasonable. So far we have not had any serious need to set up a legal fund. Hopefully this situation will not create any special need for us to do so.

[kestrel91316]

152. If you DO need to set one up, I'm sure we'll all be happy to pitch in.

[Catherine Vincent]

164. Yep. Just let us know.

:)

[elehhhhna]

266. I'm torn. It's for DU & rights etc. but why not out the freeps or nuts if

fighting it bankrupts DU?

flame away.

[magellan]

347. Definitely. I'd sell my grandmother if she was still alive

...although she'd undoubtedly be willing to give all she owned anyway, to help out if it became necessary. She was a very staunch Dem!

Thanks for sharing this news with us, Skinner.

[lonestarnot]

429. Rugh ro. Where's grovel bot?

[lonestarnot]

430. woops

[SeattleGirl]

60. Thank you, Skinner. You are handling this very well.

I appreciate the fact that you, Elad, and EarlG take our privacy so seriously, AND that you guys, and the mods, are as vigilant as you are on this board. I love DU, and while emotions can run very high over topics, I don't want a few people who irresponsibly post threats against Bush and others. That is just wrong, regardless of one's opinion of those people.

[spuddonna]

61. Thank you!

Thank you for protecting our privacy, and thank you for letting us know!

[Longhorn]

64. A responsible and professional approach, as always.

Thank you. I'm proud to be a member of this board.

[gully]

65. Frightening really. Does the SS monitor Free Republic?

nt

[kestrel91316]

154. I'm sure they are well aware of FR and are regular members there.

[gully]

202. LOL

Likely so.

[Missy Vixen]

169. I'm not at liberty to discuss where I came by the information

but I have been previously told that law enforcement is "well aware" of FR, and not in a good way.

Julie

[Catherine Vincent]

222. Yes, they are.

Those idiots made real threats against President Clinton all the time. I'm shocked that site didn't get shut down permanently.

[Homer Wells]

241. Hell, Jessee Helms mad a direct thinly veiled threat

to Clinton during his Presidency,and nobody got taken to task for it at that time.
It seems to me, in the RW minds, Liberals and Progressives = Terrorists or Commie Pinko Agitators.

This is exactly what * had in mind when he set about dividing our country.

Divide and Conquer!

[LostinVA]

256. Hell, I don't consider it thinly-veiled

That RW whacko...

[MrCoffee]

66. Thanks for keeping us informed. A question...

Do the Administrators intend to keep us updated on the investigation (as much as reasonably possible, anyway)?

[Skinner]

92. Our intention is to keep you informed.

If we are able to do so.

[MrCoffee]

98. Thank you, Sir. I am deeply grateful to have such committed Admins and

Mods here at DU. You provide a wonderful forum, and probably don't get all of the credit you so richly deserve.

[Lex]

67. Good grief.

These agents are spending their time reading DU?

Hope they liked my Blue Ridge Parkway pix in the Lounge! :hi:

[Straight Shooter]

68. How depressing.

This is an Internet forum, wide open and available to the public.

What this tells me, more than anything, is that all Internet forums are being monitored. Maybe the Secret Service is taking an approach of "better safe than sorry," but anyone who truly would be advocating physical harm to the squatter would not be discussing it where it could be traced.

What's ridiculous is that we're not talking about Clinton, here, who mixed and mingled with the crowds and did take risks. We're talking about an individual with practically an army of bodyguards, a person who insists on clearing the streets wherever he goes, no one even allowed in buildings for blocks around. Witness the photos of the 5th year anniversary of September 11, 2001. Not a soul to be seen, except for the photo op participants.

Well, I ramble. Thanks for sharing this with us. It just makes me angry to see the level of paranoia in bush and its manifestation throughout our society. I wonder if they'll have cameras in movie theaters when the movie "Death of a (p)resident" is shown in America, to capture who applauds at the pivotal scene. :(

[Lex]

77. Remember all the threats made on Pres Clinton over at freerepublic.com

and I bet no one from the Secret Service ever contacted them. I'm just sayin'.

[Richardo]

83. I'll take that bet.

The Secret Service is a professional organization who takes their duties very seriously.

[Lex]

90. I'll agree

that the Secret Service is professional organization and the agents take their duties seriously.

I wasn't disputing that in the least. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

365. Indeed. A Secret Service agent is a close friend of my family.

He's served the first Bush, Clinton, and Junior--and is strictly a pro all the way.

I have the utmost respect for him and his colleagues, and I'd say that to anyone, anytime.

[Penndems]

105. I'd be willing to bet that they do

And for our counterparts over at FR: The Secret Service isn't just responsible for protecting current Presidents, but former Presidents, as well.

Remember that when you think about posting a threatening missive against former President Clinton.

[AnnieBW]

330. Or The People That Cheered

When the White House was blown up in the movie "Independence Day". :grr:

[originalpckelly]

79. I want to know how they know this?

It is a public forum, but that means they are monitoring public forums. And if you think about it, they (thought this was the FBI) were monitoring a forum for those "bomb plotters" who were really just being dip shits.

So why do they think they need to monitor DU? Is it really a hotbed of terrorist activity?

I wouldn't be surprised if they have a keyword searcher that uses the context of words to produce alerts. Kind of like a grammar check, but for the internet.


If I remember correctly there is a major communications node in Virginia, right exactly where the NSA et al, are located.

[kestrel91316]

163. Hmmmmm.......

"...So why do they think they need to monitor DU? Is it really a hotbed of terrorist activity?"

Because DISSENTERS = terrorists. We DUers are providing "aid and comfort to the enemy".

I hate these fascist fuckers.

[jmowreader]

220. How do you know they're "monitoring" DU?

The Secret Service has even more reason to be pissed at Bush than your average DUer. They have to put up with him on a daily basis, and there's always the chance that they'll have to take a bullet for him. They have, therefore, even more Bush-generated steam to blow off than the average Democrat, and what better place to do so?

They probably can't post in GD or some of the other forums constituted specifically to bitch about Shrub because they would be caught and dismissed for speaking ill of their principal, but this is a big site. Lots of niches to hang out in.

I would NOT be shocked to find out that some of the regular posters in the Lounge are on the pResident's Detail.

[Canuckistanian]

232. It's their job to take orders from the President

And also from George Bush.

[Ian David]

287. They're not really protecting the president so much as their fellow agents

If some idiot is stupid enough to take a shot at him, it's more than likely that one of their own agents would have to take the bullet.

I wouldn't want someone I work with getting shot.

So, if they want to poke around, then so be it.

I'm glad it's the Secret Service, and not those dick-heads at Homeland Security.

I trust the Secret Service to be above-board and professional.

It's the rest of the Bushstapo I don't trust.

[kentuck]

367. Yeah, you thought they were only monitoring "foreigners", huh...

People would be shocked, shocked I tell you, if they knew who they were really monitoring...

[LTR]

405. I recall hearing al Qaeda members were communicating via sports boards

I know, I run a sports board, and I even put a ban on discussion of terrorist activities in the rules.:9

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. It Should Also Piss You Off

It should also piss you off that some idiot used this site to threaten the president.

It's disrespectful to Skinner and to all of us.

[Straight Shooter]

119. Yes, that makes me angry, too. Throwing a stink bomb to get attention.

I agree with the poster upthread who said something about people posting trash here so a troll can run to other trolls and say, "Hey, look at this garbage on DU."

I have zero respect for bush, after all he's put the world through, but I wouldn't waste my energy or my time wishing harm on him. AFAIC, that's up to God or whoever is responsible for his fate.

I admire Skinner for sharing this with us in such a reasoned fashion, though. Just another reason to be proud of being a member of DU. :thumbsup:

[Ian David]

290. On the other hand, it could get Skinner on Countdown with Keith Olbermann

I'm just sayin', it might not be ALL bad.

[Gregorian]

84. And to think the real threat is in the White House.

Did Pat Robertson get a visit? Doubtful.

What kind of threat are we? I mean, come on! And it's not just stupid statements by a guy who calls himself Gregorian. Really, what a waste and what hypocrisy. I believe I saw one of the posts. Pretty darned benign. Someone here has guns. Big deal.

[kestrel91316]

159. You and I both know this:

".....anyone who truly would be advocating physical harm to the squatter would not be discussing it where it could be traced."

But the SS isn't quite so smart. And they're lazy. Rather than REALLY investigating any potential threats, they go after DISSENTERS who are exercising their FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH.

Coming after DU like this is pure intimidation tactics. Hell, I wouldn't put it past the Bush administration to have a troll come here and post threatening remarks for the SOLE PURPOSE of being able to scare DU by the subsequent investigation. Betcha we never find out the names of the offending posters. Maybe one's first name is even KKKarl........

[elehhhhna]

269. Yep. Watch DU get labeled in the MSM as a Terrorist site.

[napi21]

345. There's no way to know what anyone with vicious intentions might do.

You say something like that would never be discussed somewhere it could be traced. Believe me, that's definately not true.

People who would actually DO some violent criminal act do not think like you and I do. Sure there are some very cautious criminals, but there are others who have evile ideas occupying their mind and they never think about consequences.

I don't fault the SS at all. They're doing their job! I know one personally. Depending on what his assignment is, he is the most dedicated person I know at doing the best job he can. If he is on Presidential detail, he knows that requires that he give up his life if necessary to protect the President, his family etc.

It really is about time everyone realizes that ANYTHING posted on the net, no matter where it is, is PUBLIC!

[Straight Shooter]

395. Anyone who has serious intentions of assassination is not going to post them.

We're not talking about an easy to accomplish crime. I don't think any one individual could accomplish such a task, anyway, do you? Think of the logistics, the barriers. I contend that someone who posts inflammatory statements on DU is doing it to either harm DU's reputation or because they're so seriously stupid that perhaps they do need a visit from the SS to explain the facts of life to them.

I'm not dissing the SS, either. I prefer to have no association with them, as a rule, but I understand what they're about and why they're necessary. I just don't want anybody going overboard in pursuit of their duties.

As for everyone needing to realize that anything posted on the 'Net is public, I believe 99.9 percent of DU'ers recognize that. Anyone who doesn't understand that this is a public forum is hopelessly naive. OTOH, we don't want our posts being mined through suspicious paranoid eyes, either.

[jarab]

69. Thanks, Skinner! The protocol I'd expect from Admins. (n/t)

...O...

[Scurrilous]

70. "The Secret Service has informed us that they intend to get subpoenas...

...in order to compel us to hand over the information."


'Compel' as in drag you before a Federal Grand Jury, because in the end, they do have ways of making you talk.

[Throwing Stones]

88. Sorry You have to go through that

I suspect DU will try to quash the subpoena?

Were the posts at issue credible threats? I understand that making threats against the waterboarder-in-chief is against the law, but doesn't our government have more important things to do?

[Skinner]

112. At this point we do not know.

We will not know unless/until we actually receive the subpoena(s). At that point, we will discuss it with our lawyer and go from there.

[ismnotwasm]

71. Thank you

You know it's funny last year --I signed on as a member of several "liberal" organizations, including ie. ACLU, Amnesty International, etc. as well as being a member of long-standing feminist organizations like NOW and NARAL. Even though I'm not a prominent or important person, some part of me wanted my name as a matter of public record against what has been happening to my country, although I don't post my name here.

I've signed every on-line petition against this administration policies from organizations like Moveon to Faithful America. I get emails from every liberal or Democrat organization I could sign up for.

If they don't know my name by now, it's because they don't care or need to.

Rock on Skinner

[murielm99]

121. I have thought much the same.

I get e-mails and snail-mails from every liberal organization under the sun.

I have even joked that the FBI could put me on a watch-list, just based on the stuff I have purchased on amazon.com. I will be easy to find if they want to find leftists.

This sort of business is not a joke, though. How can anyone be so stupid?

I am glad we have the alert button. That is the best way to deal with trolls and others who are stupid enough to make threats. Let the mods sort it out.

Thanks for sharing the info, Skinner. I love DU.

[Homer Wells]

246. For some reason, I keep getting letters of appeal from

Jerry Falwell. I have no idea why, but somehow he got my e-mail address, and the garbage they send me is laughable at best, but mostly just hateful and pathetic.

[Kerrytravelers]

75. Thanks for letting us know.

I do hope the SS are as diligent in monitoring the reich wingers in their death threats... but somehow, I think not so much.

Thanks for taking one for the team on this!

[progressoid]

76. But, has the DEA contacted you??

Some members might want to know...:smoke:

[keepCAblue]

80. Thank you , DU, for taking a principled stand.

Makes me wonder if the SS is beyond busy with Free Republic. I've seen/heard that such threats are routine over there. And then, of course, there's Ann Coulter. I sure hope the SS is giving FR and Coulter equal time.

[E-Z-B]

201. Exactly. When's the SS going to investigate Ann Coulter for threatening to poison the Supreme Court

justices?

[etherealtruth]

82. Thanks for the info ....

Mercifully, I haven't said anything here that I wouldn't say on any street corner at anytime ... Hey SS we here are all about CHANGE: peaceful, legal and political; we are informed and we vote!

[ProfessorGAC]

91. Oh Brother

The Secret Service contacted a website because some anonymous poster said something stupid? This is the investiative acumen of the Secret Service? Geez. All i can think is: Duh!
The Professor

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. I Agree In Part And Disagree In Part...

I believe I saw the post(s) in question.

What is the Secret Service supposed to do when some internet cowboy who is most likely full of hot air threatens the president and that threat is brought to their attention.

There are rival sites that live for moments for this.

[ProfessorGAC]

117. Fair Enough

I didn't see the posts, but this seems like pretty shabby investigative work. Skinner doesn't know the posters either. So, forcing him or the other admins to turn over names is a preposterous waste of authority. If they need to do that to accomplish their job, they're simply not good enough.
The Professor

[KoKo]

143. Here's an experience I'm familiar with a few years ago re. SS

A friend of mine works at an exclusive Private Boarding and Day School in the Southeast. One of their students as a joke sent a threatening E-Mail to Bush through the White House website. Shortly afterward two SS Agents showed up at the school interviewed the student and a friend who was with her at the time of the e-mail. The school administrators had to provide all the student's information to them. Parents' names and her school records. After the interview they were satisfied that it was a prank.

The school administrators were really upset about the whole incident because they felt it was overeaching. The Secret Service said that EVERY potential threat must be investigated. It's amazing to me that they have enough staff to do this...but that's what it is.

So, while this might be alarming to all of us...it's what the SS do and in this case where the poster was already banned it would seem that Skinner's lawyer is doing what he feels is appropriate. We all should appreciate his efforts to protect our private information, even that of the banned poster.

[demgurl]

94. Thanks for sticking up for privacy.

Good luck with the SS.

[brook]

96. Thank you for letting us know.

I would be surprised if this forum wasn't being monitored.

The rules you've set for DU are quite reasonable -except when I'm feeling snarky :) -

Anyway,I trust you three to handle matters like this with the same integrity and intelligence that prompted your founding of this site.

Naturally, we hope to hear the 'rest of the story' at the appropriate time.

[Disturbed]

132. Thanks for the heads up and your policy.

I have always been aware that everything I write on the Net is public. I intend it to be so.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

100. They are just doing their jobs.

It can't be easy, especially when you have a president who brings out very volatile feelings in large numbers of people. The secret service isn't only protecting him, but also innocent bystanders who could get hurt by some reckless attempt at his life, not to mention putting their own lives at risk. Maybe if Bush had a little more regard for people who are given the job of protecting him, he would try to be a little less inflammatory.

[Skinner]

123. Yes, they are just doing their jobs.

As I said in my post above, they have been very polite and professional.

[elehhhhna]

274. Plus, aren't they the ones who jump in FRONT of the Prez if soemthing

awful DOES happen?

Now that's a sucky job. No matter who's in the WH.

[Th1onein]

200. Hey now, just because we've been visited by the SS

doesn't mean that Chimp deserves our respect. He's not MY president, and I don't have one iota of respect for him. It's against the law to threaten ANYONE with physical violence; the only difference here is the OFFICE that the Chimp has managed to steal. The SS protects the office holder.

[Susang]

101. I appreciate the way you handled this

I hope it doesn't come down to a subpeona, but I'm glad that you're attempting to guard our privacy.

[cally]

102. Thanks for letting us know and protecting our

privacy.

[Midlodemocrat]

104. Wow. Thanks, Skinner.

[Skink]

106. While we're at it could we stop all Ann coulter threads?

She makes me want to Hurl.:puke:

[EFerrari]

107. Maybe the Feds should hire our mods.

:silly:

Thanks, Skinner.

[blondeatlast]

368. LOL! Hell, that may be why they monitor DU!

:rofl:

[Rosemary2205]

109. IMHO this should be stickied to the top. nt

[mike_c]

110. a question, Skinner, just out of curiosity....

Were the offenders long time posters or were they newbies or possible disruptors? The reason I ask is that just before the the election, when nerves are tight anyway, posting illegal threats on DU might seem like a pretty good means for disruption. I'm surprised it hasn't been done before.

[Skinner]

130. This is a touchy subject.

I do not wish to imply that people with low post counts are trolls or that they should not be trusted.

But I will say that both of the people in question were relatively new and did not have many posts. And, as I said above, they were banned last week.

[Strawman]

193. That's what I suspect, and that's pretty goddamn stupid of those disruptors

Because it will be investigated and they will be caught by the Secret Service.

But the fact that the kind of people who hate this site enough to pull that kind of stunt would be stupid enough to get into trouble for doing something like that doesn't surprise me in the least. These aren't the kind of people who think things through. But once they realize what they've done here and the consequences, they'll be shitting a brick. That's the silver lining of all this if there is one. Somewhere a College Republican prankster type is pooing in his or her pants reading this thread right now.

I'm not exactly Sherlock Holmes, but I would begin by questioning the people who reported these posts to the SS. Bet they are not friends of DU and I wouldn't be shocked if they were some how connnected to or tipped off by the posters themselves.

[Sugar Smack]

111. Well, until now I was shrugging off the idea of being monitored.

I thought people were being a little paranoid. This is pretty sad. Thank you for the info, Skinner. My best to you.

[meegbear]

113. Thank you for the information ...

we should all watch what we say here regardless of this.

[kentuck]

114. Intimidation, at the very least, by the US Government.

We always suspected it was just a matter of time. I think this request by the Secret Service perhaps should be common knowledge across the blogosphere. The more people that know about these intimidation tactics, the better. This country still belongs to the people of this country, the last time I checked, not to some asshole in the White House.

[KoKo]

255. See Post #143....it may be, just "bidness as usual." n/t

[grizmaster]

116. Great job as usual

but may I add...


Hey SS, go Cheney yourself!

[mmonk]

120. Thanks for the FYI.

By the way, secret service are required to check in on perceived threats. It does however, make one wonder if they said anything that could be misconstrued as a threat. As far as the posts in question, I'm not sure I saw them.

[Philosoraptor]

122. I LOVE President Bush, I always have, I always will, forever & ever

[Sugar Smack]

125. He's such a CLASSY GUY.

*gurgle*

[Philosoraptor]

127. I pray for him daily, really

[smoogatz]

136. I pray for him several times daily.

Mostly I pray for him to pull his head out of his ass and resign. So far, the answer has been no.

[elehhhhna]

278. lmao

thats' a tension - breaker.

[Radio_Lady]

372. I'm not even planning to see the new movie "Death of a President"...

Perhaps I should advise you not to see it either.

The movie is about the assassination of President George W. Bush. It's opening in limited release in the U.S. tomorrow, Friday, October 27.

Maybe the Secret Service should go after those guys, not you, Skinner.

http://www.us.imdb.com/title/tt0853096/

http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/deathofapresident

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[nytemare]

459. That movie makes me a little nervous.

Provocative, I hear. I couldn't see it, for a couple of reasons. It isn't playing here, which I pretty much agree with, and I don't believe in the premise of the movie. They could have used allegory.

The Secret Service do have a tough job. I think a movie like this would be like a movie supporting abortion clinic bombings, or killing doctors. It borders on yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. We can tell by the percentage of loonies that support Bush no matter what, that there is a percentage on the other side that just need that small amount of provocation, regardless of what the actual other content of the movie is. Sort of like those who just grasp onto portions of the Bible, and ignore the rest.

I truly agree with free speech, but really have some mixed feelings on this film.

[elehhhhna]

277. Photographic proof (not photoshopped). Check out his fly & Putin's face.

[AikidoSoul]

351. Everybody in the pic is laughing they all know

And I'll bet nobody told him....

[leftofthedial]

250. I want the bushturd and all the members of his crime family

and their gang to live

to face justice

[SlipperySlope]

124. The single most important thing DU must do here.

DU should immediately implement a zero-tolerance policy on the logging of IP addresses. The best way to protect the privacy of DU members is to insure that you aren't in the position of even having information that could ever compromise the privacy of those members.

There is no justifiable reason for a website concerned with privacy to log IP information. The ability to block malicious users and check for multiple accounts can easily be accomplished through one-way hash functions.

Maybe in this case the government will be "justified" in subpoenaing the data they desire. But the pretexts for future subpoenas may will slip lower and lower. Best to NOT log the information, make it known that you do not log the information, and protect all your users.

[Skinner]

134. We will continue to log IP addresses.

They are extremely useful for sniffing out disruptors.

If anyone does not want their IP address logged, then they need to sign off of the Internet... Forever.

[SlipperySlope]

257. Depends on how you use them

If you want the be able to trace a poster back to their ISP (or school or employer) then yes, they are valuable to you.

If you want to establish whether multiple posts (or accounts) were made from the same address, then they aren't really needed. Non-unique hashes would work for that.

Again, the best way to insure user's privacy is to not log anything about the user. Short of that, you are always one subpoena (or waterboarding) away from spilling the beans.

Does DU block Tor? That would provide at least one way for users to protect themselves.

[sweetheart]

320. Yes, it puts me to my libertarian nature on such things.

If i had such data on persons, and it was being soepena'd, id get all the copies and
incinerate them with a welding torch, then hand them over, and say that my welding
torch malfunctioned at the backup warehouse, and that force majeure has intervened.

Data you don't have is not a privacy concern, i wholly agree. I'm sure they give you
shit for storing a lit welding torch next to data backups, but hey, some people make
mistakes.

[madmusic]

356. Thanks, Skinner, for protecting us! Now back the regularly scheduled revolution.

Overthrowing Congress!

In other words, don't let this silence you, DUers. Skinner has our backs and as long as we don't make threats, we can tell the SS (damn, that has a Nazi ring to it) and any other branch of government to get fucked all we want.

[ScreamingMeemie]

440. If one is so overly worried about protecting one's privacy, one shouldn't

be on the internet in the first place. :hi:

[smoogatz]

126. An interesting dilemma, I have to say.

As others have pointed out, the people in question were undoubtedly freeper trolls, making inflammatory posts on DU in a misguided (and incredibly stupid) attempt to draw the attention of law enforcement authorities to the site. They probably thought that if "DU" was perceived by federal authorities as a "hate site" that posted threats against W, said authorities might feel compelled to shut it down. It's likely, even, that the aforementioned trolls reported their own threatening posts to the Secret Service--if two of them slipped past even the moderators' gaze, someone must have been paying extremely close attention. How ironic is it that DU is now doing everything reasonably in its power to protect the privacy of two individuals whose intent was probably to shut down the site? How ironic will it be when those warrants materialize and the freeper morons' email addresses and other identifying info is turned over to the Feds? Please, Skinner, do keep us posted on the outcome of this fascinating case. Looks like some freeptards be going to jail!

[truebrit71]

128. Thanks for the info Skinner. This needs to be on the front page...

....For those folks that are feeling their tin-foil hats buzzing, this site probably is 'monitored' in some fashion or other, but I would bet dollars to donuts that the reason Skinner got contacted was because the SS was alerted by someone (Freepers perhaps? :puke:), maybe even the Freepers that made the offending posts in the first place, and not because of any 'regular' monitoring....

At least that's what I hope, if not :hi: Agent Mike, tell the wife and kids I said :hi:

[mmonk]

135. That's kind of what I was thinking.

[kestrel91316]

137. I intend to continue to post and support jokes about Bush.

He ain't the king, and free speech covers humor and sarcasm.

[Skinner]

146. Post all the jokes you want, but...

...don't post any jokes about killing the president. Because this is what might happen.

[deutsey]

207. I fail to see the "humor" in that kind of joking

I don't care who the president is.

[greatauntoftriplets]

138. Thanks for the way you are handling this, Skinner.

I am sorry that you have this situation to deal with, and am relieved that the posters in question are banned.

[nam78_two]

Yoiks and thanks

I have never seen anyone on this forum talk about harm to anyone really...This is a forum of extremely peaceful people by and large. Hello-its a forum for anti-war liberals and peaceniks. They must have been trolls and not really part of the DU community.

By the way-thanks so much Skinner and all the mods for doing what you do. You people are really awesome :yourock: :yourock:

[nam78_two]

139. self delete-dupe/nt

[wryter2000]

140. Thanks

IMHO, if there were people here making threats against Bush/Cheney or others, the Secret Service is obligated to check them out. Sounds as if it's being handled intelligently on both sides.

[Coexist]

144. May this be short-lived.

Take care.

[hedgehog]

145. This needs to be kicked back to the top and kept there.

I'm not certain I'd be willing to go to jail in order to defend someone who is clearly in the wrong. I think you are in the position of a newspaper editor who receives a letter that goes beyond normal limits. Once statements have gone beyond inflammatory to an actual threat, I think the person involved has relinquished any expectation of privacy.

[trumad]

147. I'm not sure if I've seen this answered....

but was this a legitimate threat?

[Skinner]

151. I don't feel qualified to answer that.

Apparently the Secret Service felt it was legitimate enough to require their attention.

[trumad]

168. Let me qualify this next question by saying you guys know I love ya....

but Damn.... was the threat that ambiguous as to not know it's a threat?

[kentuck]

155. A fair question, Trumad...

Do the moderators think these were serious threats??

[truebrit71]

171. ..another question...how long were the posts up for? If it was a short time...

...I'd have to think that the posters/provocateurs/wankers posted and then alerted back-to-back....

[elehhhhna]

279. probably some goober teen in his mom's basement.

[Renew Deal]

153. I trust your judgement.

We all know threatening the president and most other people is illegal. You should be helpful if a crime was committed. I am sure that you are. Keep up the good work!

[The empressof all]

156. Friendly Reminder

As a Moderator here, I really appreciate it when folks use the alert button on obvious rule violations. Everyone's behavior here is a reflection on this Community. When you see flagrent violations of the rules...Please let us know.

[Broken_Hero]

190. I seconded this one

GD is a very big place folks, and any help will be greatly appreciated(alert wise). Its a lot of room, to cover, and the mods cannot be everywhere, all the time...:) Thanks, :hi:

[Hugin]

223. Thirded!

Although, I'm not and have never been a moderator.

The message alert is your friend!

Thank you DU Moderators for your prompt attention when problems are called out.
*THAT* is why DU works!

[DeSwiss]

157. Thanks Skinner.....

...I guess they've got all the 14 year-old girls covered.

http://digg.com/politics/Secret_Service_agents_grill_14_year_old_girl_over_anti_bush_web_page

[BlueJac]

158. 1984

Thanks Skinner

[Gormy Cuss]

160. Should this thread or your OP be pinned?

I was thinking of a way to keep it at the top for those who don't check the boards every day.

[kath]

165. One question I'd have is whether these posts were real threats. Sometimes

what the Secret Service calls a "threat" and what normal people would consider a threat are *very* different things. For example, a kid posting on their webpage that they hate the pResident, or even someone saying that they *wish* he would drop dead tomorrow (with no plans of causing any harm) are not actual threats, yet people have been harassed by the SS for such things.

[hedgehog]

174. GIven the nut cases who've taken pot shots at Presidents in recent

years, I can understand why the Secret Service is cautious. Some people assigned JFK, Martin Luther King and RFK were given part of the responsibility for their deaths because they generated such a highly emotional response for or against them. Then someone attempted to shoot President Ford who was the most boring person ever, so there went that theory!

[elehhhhna]

282. Then there's the idiot who shot Reagan. His parents are friends of GWHB.

Who'd a thunk it?

[kentuck]

170. Did they contact you by phone and are you certain they were SS?

Did they identify themselves by name?

[Skinner]

176. They contacted us by phone. And fax.

And I sent one agent an email at a "usss.dhs.gov" email address. I am confident they are the real thing.

If there is any doubt, it should go away if they do subpoena us.

[Missy Vixen]

173. Thank you, Skinner, admins and mods

I appreciate your stance on privacy, and hope that the matter will be quickly resolved.

Julie

[rug]

175. Don't you have to be elected president to get SS protection?

[byronius]

203. A salient and considerable point indeed.

The poor SS -- all clean-cut, following procedure, doing their jobs -- while the basic democracy which they try to defend is slowly dissolving into a pool of neocon election fraud. Sort of like the Wiemar officials who had to certify Hitler's ascendancy. Maintaining civil procedure into anarchy -- it's a meme.

[malaise]

178. Thanks for this info n/t

[JitterbugPerfume]

179. Thank you Skinner

We are fortunate indeed that you are level headed and professional.


This was bound to happen sooner or later

[ArmchairMeme]

181. Thanks Skinner

It is helpful that you have shared this with the people on the site.

[Carni]

182. YIKES! At first I was afraid it was my remarks about Limbaugh...

I wished some very bad karma on that vile man yesterday (after all one never knows if that fat rank excuse for a human is being given government protection these days...given his standing in this admin)

Anyway thanks for the heads up, but really do you guys remember the vile things written about Clinton on *the site that shall not be named* all throughout the late 90's?

I highly doubt serious threatsters to his majesty would announce their intentions on a public website but what do I know!

[mmonk]

192. I wouldn't worry about remarks

concerning Limbaugh. He isn't entitled to secret service protection.

[Carni]

209. That we know of anyway!

He certainly has a high position in this admin! (right under Rove by the looks of things)

[TygrBright]

183. Yeeeeesh! What a nuisance for you. And now we see...

...why a few RULES are necessary here, and why we should all appreciate the MODS who do their best to enforce them even-handedly.

To be honest, it's rather surprising this hasn't happened before, given the nature of this website and how high feelings run here, on occasion. It is a tribute to how conscientiously and professionally DU is operated that such "enquiries" have not been an ongoing nuisance.

Since I know that the Fibbies, at least, have a dossier on me going back many decades, I always assume that anything I say on The Tubes gets routed there sooner or later. However, just to be explicit, Skinner, if any law enforcement agencies appear at your door having demonstrated probable cause to a judge who has issued a subpoena, you hereby have my permission, dispensation, understanding, and forgiveness for any information you provide them about my humble self. If anyone ELSE comes a-knockin', I expect you'll continue to maintain the high standards of respect for user privacy that DU has always upheld.

I do spare a moment's ironical sympathy for the poor schlub in whatever Fibbie office is charged with maintaining my file. Boredom is a terrible curse. In light of that, it's hardly surprising, is it, that concoctions like the Florida "plot" get inflated out of nothing. Being a Fed in charge of monitoring the hundreds of thousands of potential "terrorists" swarming The Tubes has got to be the most tedious job on earth.

amusedly,
Bright

[wicket]

184. Whoa....

:wow:

[The Straight Story]

185. Is it possible that they could seize DU's computers and shut it down

for an extended period of time? Not sure how all this works.

[Skinner]

194. That isn't going to happen.

Don't worry.

[OzarkDem]

187. Thanks, Skinner!

Thanks for standing up for our rights. Don't hesitate to start up old "Grovelbot" if you incur any legal expenses. I'll gladly chip in.

[JRob]

188. Thanks for the heads up... and this environment.

[earth mom]

189. Thanks for telling us, I appreciate it. nt

[DemExpat]

191. Thanks for informing us and I'm very glad they were banned.

DemEx

[dweller]

195. note to self ...

NO MORE Posting while drinking...


dp

[Buttercup McToots]

215. Ha Ha

Funny:rofl:

[byronius]

196. Following the rules of civil conduct is just so -- us.

Assassination attempts and threats of bodily harm against public officials is just so -- them.

Skinner, I love this place. Protect it at will. I shall now donate.

[Hugin]

197. Now... When are they going to come down on Hannity for his Pelosi threats?

Hey, Agent Mike.... What about it?

We're waiting.

[Penndems]

261. Leader Pelosi's security is handled by the Capitol Police

If Hannity made threats against her, you can bet you next paycheck they're on top of it.

[Hugin]

275. He let loose with a tirade the other day...

I heard about it second hand (from a reliable source).

I continue to be amazed at the divide between what Right Wingers can
get away with vs. the common folk.

[Penndems]

281. Hannity might have said it, but whether he gets away with it is another matter

The Capitol Police choose whether or not to pursue it, assuming it was reported to them.

[Bluebear]

198. The Parlock technique strikes again?

[cwydro]

199. wow

:kick:

[fishnfla]

204. I say if they are trolls, out them

I know I'll be in the minority. Rules are one thing. Breaking the law is another

But I fear some of our fellow citizens more than I fear our government.

If it was a set-up smoke 'em out and be done with them

[TahitiNut]

205. Is this causing y'all much stress?

I hope not. You need to remain patient and calm. I recommend a little wacky weed. :smoke: :silly:

Stay away from alcohol - it leads to depression.

[emdee]

206. Thanks for letting us know. nt

nt

[karlrschneider]

208. Franly, I'm a bit surprised it took 'this' long. If this creates a lot of legal

expenses for you, be sure to let us know. I need to kick in some anyway.
K

[LoZoccolo]

210. You know, I don't really feel much sympathy for the two being investigated.

Honestly, what I'm sick of is people failing to take responsibility for getting the people they want in power through the established means available to them. There are a million honest, legal, patriotic things a citizen can do if they don't like our elected officials. In this country, we get a chance to "overthrow" the government every two years via elections. Every single person in power now can end up unseated within two to six years depending on their term.

But participating in the democratic process is work that requires time and the will to be compelling, some control over ourselves, discipline, thoughtfulness and work.

Instead, we have people who vegetate on the Internet, who stew and wallow with each other until they work themselves into a frenzy saying all kinds of fucked-up ridiculous fantastical nonsense.

The Secret Service has to investigate these things as a matter of course, but they'll probably find out what I know already from hanging out here for three and a half years, and that's that most of the people here aren't a threat due to the mere fact that they won't even leave their computer den past 5:30 in the evening.

So fuck you, whoever you two lazy pathetic fuck-ups are. It wasn't enough for you to not be a part of the solution, that you have to go and be part of the problem and get DU's reputation tangled up in your asshattery.

[MissB]

212. I'm glad that the Secret Service is doing its job.

And I am glad you are too. :hi: Thanks.

[Q3JR4]

213. Good going Admins!

The law is the law. That being said if the Secret Service wants something from you, make them do it following the letter of the law. Once they have their Subpoenas, then you can have a nice sit down with them. Until then, keep up the good work (and the brick wall).

Q3JR4.

[Akoto]

214. Are they just chasing info on those two people, or ...

Do they want to acquire DU's entire database of users?

I hope that this turns out alright for you, at any rate.

[Skinner]

218. They just want info on those two people.

That's all.

[itcfish]

216. Sorry to Say

They could have been plants so that Torquemada Gonazalez could have axcess to du's database. No one has ever physically threatened anyone in any posts that I have read. Moderators must be doing a good job. Here is a tip. If someone was planning on doing something so horrible, I doubt they would post it this room. Just a bit too obvious.

[xultar]

217. They'll find that they were fuckin REPUBLICAN FREEPERS posting

on our site trying to get us in trouble.

BTW. SS can you ask Bush a question for me?

Why are our troops dying for his lies?

[elehhhhna]

219. Rec# 100!!!! I'm glad they contacted you...

having figured the Fed doesn't bother with all that legal-y type sissy stuff like official requests and warrants anymore. Kind of almost reassuring news, really.

Jerks and/or nuts like the newbies described in the OP SHOULD be checked out, imo. How y'all deal with the request is your biz, Skinner. Thank you.

[Catherine Vincent]

225. By the way, is DOJ Patrick Fitzgerald on the case?

You have my permission to give him my personal information. :)

[me b zola]

226. Thanks, Skinner

[IntravenousDemilo]

227. Thank you for your vigilance, Skinner. Oh, hey...

I was just thinking, if these disruptive people have been tombstoned anyway, and if you suspect they might have been just shit-disturbing Freepers, what would be the harm in displaying their identities, or at least their IP addresses, for all to see? It would be good warning to trolls: "this is what we do to troublemakers."

And then just keep doing it whenever it happens. We can eliminate trolling like that (*SNAP*).

Also, I'm sure there are others wondering what the Secret Service would be able to do to posters not living in the United States, let's say if they think we're getting too uppity and snarky. There are a lot of us in DU. Any thoughts on that?

Also also, I'm trying to think if I've ever said anything that could be construed as a threat to His Lordship, or if I was merely thinking it. It would be useful if we could check our posts farther back than just two days.

[endarkenment]

228. Absolutely the correct approach.

Thank you all for being great at what you do.

[civildisoBDence]

229. I've tiptoed up to that line myself...

but don't think I ever crossed it.

Does praying for lightning to strike a sinner count???

Newsprism

[Dem2theMax]

231. Thank you for taking such good care of us DU'ers Skinner.

This is a good time to say "remember to hit that alert button when you see something that REALLY does not belong on DU."

I have to say that more than once, I've read posts that should have never made it past three minutes on the board. I've alerted on them and nothing happens. Just sayin'. :shrug:

[Ian David]

412. If the mods weren't overwhelmed dealing with pointless flame wars...

and people trying to sneak crazy-ass shit into the forums "so it doesn't get banished into the dungeon," then maybe they'd be able to respond faster to the important stuff.

9/11 stuff needs to be posted in the 9/11 forum, Israel/Palestine stuff needs to be posted in the Israel/Palestine forum. Period. It isn't part of a game to see if you can get it five "recommends" in General Discussion before it's "Banished to the Dungeon."

That stuff eats up the Moderators' time and delays response to important stuff.

People need to cut that shit out.

1) Cut-out the flame wars.
2) Stop trying to deliberately subvert DU rules to promote your pet Konspiracy Theories and such.

[reyd reid reed]

235. Thank you.

Thank you for letting us know, thank you for respecting and protecting our privacy, thank you for providing and maintaining this site, thank you for everything you do.

Let me know if there's anything, no matter how small, that I can do.

[BootinUp]

236. I agree with how you are handling it.

Pretty amazing to me that the Secret Service takes those things as seriously as they apparently do. But then I guess they have their reasons.

[johnnie]

237. Interesting

My cousin was in town last week and I jokingly mentioned the secret service watching the website I go on and he said "Oh shit.. we don't have time to do that crap". I think I am going to have to give him a call..lol.

He left them a few months ago, but is going back. I swear.. I never mentioned the name of this site. :)

[BootinUp]

242. I am guessing here

that freeps alerted the SS to posts, and very well planted the posts themselves. I mean no I don't think they troll this site in any manual way unless something or someone alerts them to a potential threat.

[johnnie]

245. Yeah

That's pretty much what he said. Someone must have alerted and being that it seems they were new posters, it doesn't take too much to figure it out. Skinner should send their information to the SS..LOL

[nam78_two]

249. That is what happened-they are crowing about it on a couple of RW sites

It would be a shame if people started self-censoring normal, sane, good posts thinking that the SS is watching the site.
It happened because of Freeps...

Seriously, those are people that really need to get a life..ugh Freeping trolls...:grr:
Giving the admins and mods here even more headaches than they normally have to deal with ..sheesh....

[myrna minx]

239. Thank you for keeping us informed, Skinner. n/t

[cassiepriam]

248. Should DU protect people who are clearly breaking the law?

I know you need to follow legal advice, but it seems wrong
to protect those breaking the law.

Thanks for letting us know what is happening.

[Skinner]

285. This is not a case of protecting lawbreakers.

It is a case of protecting rights. Our rights and yours.

The visitors and members of this website have trusted Democratic Underground with your private information. It would be a grave breach of trust for us to voluntarily hand over anyone's private information simply because the government asked for it.

If the law has been broken, or if these individuals pose a legitimate threat to the president of the United States, then the Secret Service should not have any difficulty fulfilling the necessary legal requirements to do their job. They do it every day, I'm sure.

[cassiepriam]

301. Thank you for the clarification, yes you are right.

If someone has broken the law, then the authorities should have no
problem getting a court order to obtain the needed info.

Thank you for doing the right thing for everyone concerned!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

326. Thomas Paine's take on protecting those with whom we bitterly disagree.

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. -- Thomas Paine

MKJ

[Vidar]

399. Thanks for keeping us informed, Skinner, & for standing on principle.

[marions ghost]

314. authorities should

still have to follow legal procedures for obtaining personal info, even about those who utter threats. If it's easy to get info without due process from Skinner about these posters, then anyone can get info about the rest of us if they want to, for any trumped-up reason. When you give your personal info to a message board, you want assurances that it will not be released without the proper legal means used to obtain it.

It worries me that many people do not understand that requests for info can be used for all sorts of devious purposes. These days it pays to be cautious and not give out anything until you're sure that things are what they seem. Never take anything at face value. Maybe my house is not hard to break into, but I'm still not going to hand anyone the key very easily.
--------------------------

edit: Oops, I didn't see that Skinner already answered this. Sorry for the redundancy.

[Lochloosa]

413. Damn....they were convicted already. Skinner how did you miss

that one....

[cassiepriam]

414. Threating to harm anyone is clearly against the law and very serious,

and should be immediately turned over to the authorities.
You do not need a trial to tell you that.

Free speech doesn't mean you have a right to threaten to harm
any one.

That is my opinion, but I understand Skinner's points about this matter.
And it is his website, he has a right to do what he wants.

[Skinner]

421. I think you need to keep in mind...

...that you do not know exactly what the posts in question said. I'm not trying to defend either of these people. But the reality is that there are degrees of what can be interpreted as a threat. A threat is pretty clear if someone says "I am going to do X" or "I want to do X." But it's not quite so clear if someone says something like "I know the Secret Service is reading this thread, so I'm going to say the words X and X just to mess with them" or "The president's policies have caused X, maybe he needs to know what it's like for X to happen to him."

To be clear: These are totally hypothetical examples, and are not necessarily representative of what was said. I'm trying to make the point that you don't know what was said, and not all perceived "threats" are people saying "I'm going to do X."

[dkofos]

251. Hope you said High to Agent Mike for us

[skygazer]

252. Thanks for the info Skinner

As always, it sounds like you guys are handling this just as it should be handled. Kudos to the admins and the mods for doing a tough job with grace and professionalism. :toast:

And hi Agent Mike. :hi: How ya doing?

[windbreeze]

253. Thanx Skinner...

For letting us know about this...and for your efforts to protect us.
windbreeze

[L0oniX]

258. What if the SS sent the trolls here to cause reason to search?

I don't trust these muthaf*ckas. I am sure they would send trolls here to say things that will give them a reason to get a search warrant and try to get everyones info. It's just like a setup for a drug bust.

[A HERETIC I AM]

260. I've got a question for you Dave, but it's about your little doggy pic.....

1) What's his/her name? Sure is a cutie.

2) Can we eat him/her? All this SS talk has made me hungry for some pup pup pu pu platter.

3) Please don't sic' em' on me. I have fragile ankles!

4) These last two aren't really questions, are they? May your little muttly live long and prosper!


Sorry...but everybody is SOOOOOOOO serious.

Hmmm...So Serious - ? SS - ? Secret Service = So Serious!

I need to go home.

[MethuenProgressive]

263. Agent Mike ALREADY KNOWS who those posters were.

The SS has the capabilities to follow any and all electronic communications they want to. This is a set-up, no more - no less. It would not surprise any aware person here to find out the SS planted those postings to entrap those who own/run DU.

[Ian David]

268. I heard that Clinton had Skinner in his sights in 1993, but didn't take the shot. n/t

[mvd]

267. I think you've handled this perfectly, Skinner

It makes me feel good to know you are so committed to protecting our privacy. Imagine if the Freepers were reporting on another Freeper. That would serve them right.

[brer cat]

270. Skinner, this thread has taught me an important lesson that is missing

(I think) in this thread. Most DUers probably have more sense than I do, but I am almost always logged on to DU. My sister, daughter and others in my household read DU with my user name active; one has even posted. Same is true at work, although in my small antique/book shop, my computer could not be easily accessed by a stranger. Maybe I need to sign out more often, not just for myself but to protect DU from someone unauthorized finding an "open" line to post.

Also, I've had my laptop in shops for repairs....couldn't they also access my account?

Thanks for the heads-up, Skinner!

[derby378]

272. I had some Secre Service personnel show up at my place of work a few years ago

They weren't looking for me or anyone in particular - Bill Clinton was swinging through town, and the agents were just looking for some good staging areas to take members of the Clinton family in case anything went pear-shaped during the President's stay.

The agent I dealt with was very professional and rather nice about the whole thing.

One of my superiors is also an ex-Secret Service agent, himself.

Small world...

[Pale Blue Dot]

276. Skinner - I have a question on a related topic.

As you may know, there is a movie coming out soon called Death of a President, that is a fictional (obviously) account of the assassination of George W. Bush. There has already been some discussion of the film on DU, but I think it would be very easy for lines to be crossed in threads about it. Do you have any specific plans with regards to threads about this film, especially in light of these events?

[Skinner]

293. Discussion of the film is fine, and is of course permitted.

The problem arises when the discussions stray into the "wishing" category -- even if it is a joke. That sort of thing should not be posted. Fortunately, most people here have the good sense to not post such things.

[Last Stand]

305. Are you able to post the specific comments that were of concern to

the SS guys?

[Skinner]

333. I don't think that is necessary.

I'll just say this: The posts in question would have been covered by our rules against postings that could be interpreted as threats against the president. I do not know if they constitute a legitimate threat by the standards of the Secret Service -- there does appear to be some ambiguity here -- but ultimately that is not a judgment for me to make.

[pooja]

342. Actually be careful how you word your statements in regards to this

movie... A couple I know was visited by ss after sending out e-mail to friends in regards to getting them to watch a few excerpts. Scared the crap out of them. So be careful how you word it.. Preface it with "this is in regards to the movie and does not represent my intentions of any harm towards the President of the United States"....

[Radio_Lady]

374. Finnfan, just as an aside, this movie is going into limited release on

Friday, October 27th.

We did have a thread on this subject when the film was exhibited --

I personally have not seen this film because I was on vacation for several weeks. Not even sure if the movie is scheduled in Portland, Oregon. Looks as if Skinner has responded that this subject is not taboo.

See my post # 372.

Thanks for the heads up. See you at the movies.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[Radio_Lady]

376. From Newmarket Films regarding "Death of a President"...

Posted October 22, 2006 at www.newmarketfilms.com

DEATH OF A PRESIDENT opens this Friday (10/27/06)

Will the most controversial film of 2006 also open public debate?

Director Gabriel Range touched off a firestorm of controversy at the 2006 Toronto International Film Festival with his daring political thriller, referred to in festival press as D.O.A.P. Before the film had even been projected, critics and pundits from both ends of the political spectrum were weighing in on the merits of Range's work. "It's ironic," said Newmarket partner Chris Ball, "that a film condemning the rush to judgement has often been subjected to that very thing." Though initial reactions to the film's title and Range's concept of using the sitting President as the titular victim were frequently negative - and occasionally hostile - recent press screenings are elliciting very different reviews. "There's no reason to be threatened by this film," writes Jim Emerson of RogerEbert.com, "any more than there was to be by "United 93" or "World Trade Center." It's responsible and observant about the world we live in... Most of all (the movie) is electrifying drama and compellingly realistic." According to Newmarket's Creative Director, John Crye, this reaction is typical of recent reviews. "They go in decrying the cinematic effigy-burning that they think the film will be, and come out praising the damn fine political-thriller that it actually is. Hopefully, some of them will come away having learned a personal lesson in rushing to judge." I suppose we'll find out on Friday.

[bullwinkle428]

426. I saw the promo last night, and looked at this thread just to see

if this question had been asked!

[Raine]

280. It's the Secret Service's job

to protect the pResident, if they didn't check into these things they would not be fulfilling the requirment they are being paid for. It was morAnic to post a threat here and mostly likely done by some RW freak trying to cause trouble.

[wiley]

284. Thanks. And have they arrested Coulter or others who advocate

violence on a routine basis against "liberals" or anyone who tries to debate the policies of this administration?

[guinivere]

286. Holy smokes!

How big a moran do you have to be to post a big time threat against the pretzeldent? :eyes: Laugh all you want, freepers. They are coming for you.


Thanks for the info, Skinner. And a big thanks to all the mods.




Hi Agent Mike. :hi: You're looking particularly dapper this fine evening.

[ulysses]

291. thanks, Skinner.

:thumbsup:

[Rex]

295. Didn't take em long. New rules means they get to do whatever they

want to. I just hope this doesn't turn into a, we want ALL your files and data when it was about two banned posters. :(

Not that any of us did anything wrong in those posts - it would give them and the FBI new files or in some of our cases, fatter files.

[Nickster]

296. So it took six weeks for them to find out that that idiot in Wisconsin was

posting his bogus threats on multiple websites and it only took them a week to figure out and request user info from DU about a few postings here? Now why does that strike me as odd? Hmmmmmm.

[Pithlet]

297. Thanks for letting us know, Skinner.

And I think you're doing the right thing :thumbsup:

[Tatiana]

298. I appreciate your professionalism, Skinner.

I've been at this site, off and on, for years and I am grateful that you are willing to stand up for the privacy rights of individuals on this site. If there was a legitimate threat to the President, I assume the Secret Service will have no problem obtaining the information they need to do their job. However, it is important that any and all governmental entities not be allowed to go on "fishing expeditions" without just cause.

Kudos to DU admins and staff! :toast:

[Orsino]

457. Big time.

Taking responsibility for so many varying opinions is an enormous job, and it sounds as though the bans were for very good reason. I bear no grudge against the SS for merely investigating and interviewing, and a court order for personal info might not be beyond the pale, IMO.

So far, it seems that things are working the way they're supposed to, in large part due to the great work our moderators do in heading off illegal behavior before it can occur.

[KT2000]

299. If it turns out to be intentional

on the part of the posters to get DU in trouble, I hope they can be held liable for your legal costs.

[theothersnippywshrub]

319. Interesting idea. Do any of the lawyers on DU have an opinion

on whether an internet troll may be liable for damages such as legal expenses incurred by a website as a forseeable result of posts made by the troll?

[mmonk]

329. Good question. Hope one of DU's lawyers answers.

Welcome.

[Jcrowley]

357. I must say

that photo of Bushocchio has me laughing my socks off. Not easy since I wear wool.

Welcome to DU

:toast:

[rainbow4321]

303. K&R n/t

[democrank]

306. Thanks for this information, Skinner.

I have full faith that you will do the right thing. This post reminded me of the importance of personal responsibility here at DU.

[MethuenProgressive]

308. SS is NOT reading every post on DU, here's what they do:

According to my IT guy they are running an automated "screen" that fishes all the 1s and 0s running through the tubes on the Internets. If a packet is transmitted with being-looked-for information like certain words together, particular html, and other things, stuff caught by the "screen" are served up, sorted, and flagged. Kinda like those of us who have in-place eBay or Google alerts, but top-secret and super-powered.

Egad.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

310. Rule #1: Get it in writing.

Sauce for the goose.

[madrchsod]

311. they did the same to "little green footballs"

got that info from "stormfront" who as we do, watch very closely what is submitted

[autorank]

315. I see trolls here being highly provocative. Some of this is probably

a random right wing activity that they think is amusing...lets post something really stupid on DU and then mock it.

I'll make one suggestion...anyone here from clearly Republican or Conservative sites should go immediately.

I appreciate the refusal to hand over information and the consultation with counsel to maintain that position. This is vastly superior to the immediate cave-in done by six of the seven telcos when they just turned over information on a whim. Thanks.

[Cleita]

317. Many of us have posted that we want this President and his

administration to be impeached, put under oath to answer questions about WTC 9-11, or sent to the Hague to be tried for war crimes. I hope these sentiments don't qualify for threats to the President as they are legitimate actions to be performed according to the Constitution, which this man has sworn to uphold. If it does, then I will comply and will not post these desires anymore, but truly we are saying good-by to our Democracy.

Thank you for not willingly handing information over to the SS. It's not your duty to do their job for them.

[Skinner]

334. That is fine.

Those sentiments are not considered threats against the president. The posts in question were nothing like that.

[bigwillq]

322. Thanks for letting us know.

:hi:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

323. Thanks for standing up for our rights guys!

I know this is added stress on you fellows, but look on the bright side of this. If the people were conservative trolls here attempting to stir up trouble they've succeeded in ways they never imagined. Picture the stress they must be having right about now as they wait for the SS to come knocking on their door. :rofl:

[Mr_Spock]

327. As long as you don't tell them about Operation "X" - were good to go

:rofl:

Funny that Freepers may have been trying to start trouble here by trying to get other to pile on. They have been known to do this in the past. Glad you made this public.

[kentuck]

328. I hope everyone understands the seriousness of this...

:shrug: ...and the potential consequences?

[NMDemDist2]

331. all the more reason to hit that "ALERT" button. it not only saves the

thread, it may save our beloved DU itself. the mods are over worked and awesome, but they can't read every post in every thread in every forum. we need to be proactive to protect our site and this is a perfect example why that 'alert' key is so important.

Just say the word Skinner and I'll pony up for legal fees if you need them. Sorry you have to deal with this crap 12 days before the elections.

:hi:

[eleny]

332. I'm grateful for Mods & Admins responding to our Alerts

I think that sometimes people post jokingly. Even those postings are out of line. Mods and/or admins have always been protective of government officials and DU's reputation.

In the case when a member is way, way out of line, I have suspicions that they're trying to harm Dem Underground in some way.

Let this be a lesson to us all to never hesitate to hit that Alert link and keep at it if it takes too long to remove the offensive posting. And if it's not removed - email the Admins. DU is in good hands.

:grouphug:

[Nihil]

337. Question from a foreigner

Although I appreciate the heads-up from you Skinner, how much latitude is there
for "cultural differences"?

I can understand that the SS get worked up about threats to their primary but
at what point do they draw the line? Am I, as an Englishman living in England,
not allowed to repeat the views of most of the world outside the USA?
If I were to sympathise with the anger of a victim of a so-called "friendly-fire"
incident, am I causing a problem here?

The SS hold no threat for me but I'd hate any comment of mine to cause a problem
for this wonderful community.

I realise that there must have been some inflamatory post(s) to trigger this
but just wondered about the scope of the SS (or of DU mods) in qualifying whether
a comment is a "threat" or merely a "comment"?

If this is too awkward (or out of line) to answer here, please PM me.

Thanks,

Nihil

[Skinner]

343. This is not a case of cultural differences or misunderstanding.

This was not a case of someone criticizing the president's policies or the policies of the US government.

The content of these posts was very clearly about the president and about his death. (The intent of the poster is not so clear, but that is another issue entirely.)

[Nihil]

354. OK

Thanks for the quick reply!

[jannyk]

402. Then that proves it was a freeper...

name one Democrat that would prefer the Prince of Darkness be officially the Prez? :scared:

Thank you Skinner and ...

Hi Agent Mike :hi:

[Mike Nelson]

340. ODD -- This site does not seem like the place...

...to find people who believe the lives of ANY public official should be SERIOUSLY threatened. It's telling that DU banned these posters BEFORE this investigation. -- I agree with wiley's suggestion they look at threats by Ann Coulter (and her followers). -- ALSO, obviously, WHO SENT THE ANTHRAX LETTERS TO OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS. -- I say NO VIOLENCE. It's not the answer.

[Ian David]

358. Nobody... NOBODY will deprive me of the opportunity to see Bush do the perp walk

Nobody touches him.

Nobody.

I'd save his life myself if I had to.

I've waited too long to see him led away in shackles to prison.

[StellaBlue]

344. Thank you.

That's all.

:applause:

[Synnical]

349. Thanks for this

And thanks for not providing any personal info unless subpoenaed, and then again talking to an attorney before providing such info.

I appreciate it.

Just an aside, some of the comments on You Tube, Yahoo, and Google, should also warrant such interest. But, they're not threatening the person who occupies the Oval Office, just Democrats and Veterans. I know that doesn't fall under the purview of the Secret Service, but still . . . .

[GOPS Worst Fear]

350. Personal Threats To The President is WRONG..However..

Did you know that the U.S. ranks 27 in the world regarding Free Press?


http://www.de2.psu.edu/vairo/000106.html

[bullwinkle428]

370. Randi said yesterday that the U.S. is now ranked 53rd!!!

[Mr_Spock]

352. This title keeps popping up here in GD and it catches my eye every time

I do a double take and once again realize that this is dead serious - spooky!!

[Cameron27]

355. I didn't see those threads,

but they were either posted by absolute idiots, or were planted specifically for this effect.

Thanks Skinner & mods.

[Raster]

362. I'm voting for planted. I can't believe any real DUer would be that

stupid. :hi:Agent Mike. Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?

[bedazzled]

364. is is still legal to call him a smarmy, murderous bastard?

inquiring minds want to know

[Erika]

382. Who? n/t

[Hailtothechimp]

366. Remember that dissent is patriotic!

This seems to be an attempt to silence anything offensive to George and his people.

And nothing more.

[Laurab]

386. Oh, I don't think so - it's just the Secret Service doing their job

If someone threatened the life of the pResident, it's their business. If you read Skinner's posts, it would seem a relatively new poster or two did something like that. If you read posts from people who read the posts (I didn't see them), it would appear that they were very questionable posts, probably from a Freeper trying to start something, who then went and reported the posts.

Secret Service have a job to do - they don't necessarily agree with the pResident's politics, they just do their jobs. I had a friend in the SS years ago, he didn't like the then president, still, protecting him was his job, and he took it very seriously. I don't see it in any way as attempting to silence us.

They want info about TWO posters, who posted things that, as Skinner said, broke DU rules anyway. From what I'm reading, they were probably freepers, and if Skinner does get subpoenaed, it's going to blow up in the freeper's faces, not ours, if he has to turn their info over. No great loss if that happens IMO, but Skinner is letting us know that he WILL protect our info.

Skinner doesn't seem to be worried about us dissenting or saying anything offensive, he's just letting us know this happened. Follow DU's rules and there's nothing to worry about, and yes, dissent IS patriotic.

I'm as paranoid as the next person where this administration is concerned, but from what I've read in this thread, it would seem that it's just the Secret Service doing their jobs, and I hope they catch those damn freepers....I mean posters.

[Skinner]

422. I think that Laurab is correct.

The Secret Service is just doing their job. The posts in question fell within their job of investigating possible threats against the president. There is no reason at all to believe that this is an effort by the government to silence dissent.

[DinahMoeHum]

369. Thanks for the heads up, Skinner.

This sort of thing can be filed into what I call OBN = Odious But Necessary.

It's good to know what our enemies are up to. . .and our friends.

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

371. Wisely and well-handled as usual. And a big kudo to the Mods

for their vastly underappreciated work.

Thank you, gang. :thumbsup:

I work for a government agency and am well aware of the limits on my electronic privacy. The Secret Service is doing their job and I'm personally glad they acted on the threats, whether peceived or otherwise.

That's their job. :thumbsup:

[symbolman]

373. Thanks Skinner

appreciate you looking out for members. Wondering though, isn't this akin to someone shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater? An illegal action that puts someone in jeopardy, namely you - that scenario wouldn't be considered Protected Speech under the First Amendment.

I wouldn't mind if you handed them over to the authorities who are just doing their job, if they've committed a crime (and your lawyer agrees of course) you have every right to protect yourself in that we don't want you or the admins to be considered some kind of accomplices, when anyone and everyone, a 100,000 witnesses know better.

I'm not surprised that this happened, there's been a lot of vitriol leading up to the elections, and I've told a few people to watch their mouths (or hands as it were) when it looked very much like they were getting close to the nut on this.

******

BTW: Hunter S. Thompson once weighed in on this:

From an interview of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson by PJ O'Rourke

Q. Recently you told a college audience at Marquette University, "George Bush should be killed. He should be stomped to death, and I'll join in." .... How did the students react?

A. Hey, they cheered! Then I called for a voice vote. It was two-thirds to stomp him. Meanwhile some fucking maniac recorded it and took it to the Milwaukee Journal. And the U.S. attorney in Milwaukee was about to indict me on two felony charges: five years for threating the vice-president and another five for inciting others to do it. ... I started getting calls from the Secret Service.

Q. Did you answer any of those calls?

A. Not at first, because I thought they were cranks. If it was important, they'd leave a message. And then the Secret Service showed up at the Examiner and at my lecture agency. I realized they were serious. So I called the Secret Service guy in Denver, Larry Hoppe. And he was very nice. And I said, "What's going on here, man?"

And Hoppe said, "Dr. Thompson, let me tell you one thing: I would advise you not to go to Washington without talking to me first." So I said, "Come on over. What the hell."

Well, we talked for a while, and by that time Hoppe knew it was a joke.

I said, "Have times changed? I've threatened to drage people around Washington by their nuts behind Oldsmobiles at a hundred miles an hour. I've advocated the slaughter of all politicians. What are the guidelines now?" He had a pretty good sense of humor. He said, "Well, you can't say that he should be strung up. If you say that to people, WHAP! Ten years. You can say he should be tarred and feathered." And I said, "Wait a minute. I don't grasp it. What's the difference?"

And Hoppe says, "I don't know. That's the way it is. Don't go out anymore and threaten to string George Bush up or stomp him to death."

Q. Now, to what level of public figure does this extend? Take somebody I really hate, like Meese. Meese is not an elected official. Can I say that somebody should slice Meese open and wrap his intestines around a phone booth?

A. No, you probably can't. He should be flogged -- just not to death.

Q. What if we said Messe should be fucked by an elk?

A. That's apparently harmless as hell. I believe that Ed Meese -- being a person without any honor, a fat bastard, really a congenital cheap pig in the style of and on the level of Richard Nixon -- should be locked in a large concrete basement with an elk. And the elk should be ram-fed full of acid before he's put in there.

Q. An angry, horny, acid-crazed elk.

A. Meese is naked, and the elk is huge, maybe 800 plus. Q. Elk can be ugly customers. A. And once they're full of acid, and they're really horny -- oh yeah, all night long!

***

Thanks for all you do Skinner and Admins, we appreciate this place and don't want a few possible trolls to create some two pronged attack here - threaten the POTUS AND THEN call the SS.

We've got your back. And THANK YOU MODS for doing such a great job!

[Piscis Austrinus]

375. Just trying to figure this out...

Either these shlomos were Freepers, or they weren't.

If they were, well, they're... Freepers. Not too bright... kind of like trying to antifreeze the neighbors' dog by walking over to their driveway, filling the bowl while you're standing there, spilling the antifreeze and leaving a trail right back to your own garage, and trying to get rid of the evidence by tossing the empty container in the trash can.... and then taking out your trusty megaphone and shouting out to all your buddies in the neighborhood about how your neighbors' dog is gonna die.

Small wonder the local constables would get wind of it one way or another. They may not like your neighbors any more than you do, but the law and the evidence is so clearly on their side that they don't have to do anything extralegal to nail you. Seeing as how everyone in the neighborhood knows what you did, it would behoove them to do their job.

Or maybe they weren't Freepers. They were idiots. In which case all of the above applies anyway.

Or......maybe this was a little Reichstag fire, a pretext for action that was itself orchestrated. I have my doubts about that. With the resources of much of the entire executive branch at their immediate or extended disposal, why rig such a lame scheme? We're talking NSA here. Those guys probably could find out how often each of us scratches our asses while on this site, without bothering to let us know about it.

I get the impression that the Secret Service is probably a little more sensitive about this kind of thing, given our current President's paranoia. Not a lot more, but a little. Enough to do a little due diligence without ruffling anyone's feathers. Enough to set an example, without being jerks about it.

So I don't really think this is some grand scheme against us as individuals. I would be far more concerned that this might be used as a political ploy by certain (desperate) GOP candidates in tight races. Imagine we wake up two or three days before the election and all the talking heads are pontificating about some nutball site on the internets getting busted for threatening the President. Rush Limbaugh, for one....that four-flusher of the airwaves ("four-flusher" is a term I use to describe what you end up doing when you crap a turd several sizes too large for the hole at the bottom of the toilet) would love any excuse to stop talking about Michael J. Fox, even if he can't admit it.

So.... either they're idiots (FR or otherwise), or we've just been promoted to being the new, collective straw man by this Administration. I kind of hope it's the latter... everything else they've done has been a train wreck. We'd have more hits, more visitors, more donations, etc.

Be sure to keep those links to those fools who were bragging about "smoking" DU, or whatever it was. That's the smoking megaphone.

And finally... thanks for all you do for us, Skinner and mods. I do think that from everything that's been said, it's apparent that the Federal statute banning threats against governmental line-of-succession officials has been violated, and since the Secret Service appears to be going by the law - which is very consistent with their organizational reputation - then I have no problem with your compliance, regardless of the true identity of the poster, and assuming that a warrant is in fact issued.
Peace all
PsA

[crispini]

378. Okay, but you haven't answered the REALLY IMPORTANT question yet....

Were any of the Secret Service guys.... named "Mike"? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl:

[proud patriot]

379. LOL

:rofl:

[Skinner]

423. Neither was named Mike. (nt)

[Erika]

380. Is this like the W bots tracing the 14 year old girl for threats?

W has a tendency to slam and prosecute/persecute anything that isn't right wing. If you need legal funds, please post. I will contribute.

[havocmom]

381. Cheney's Junta is in a panic. Agents provocateur are an old trick

Look back to the Nixon days. 'The Man' would use provocateurs to create excuse for shutting down a lot of peace activist groups. Lots of those old Nixon days faces in Cheney's Junta now and they are threatened by the growing mass of people who are learning the truth. DU has been a VERY integral part of that movement and the education of America.

DU is a threat to Cheney.

DemoTex posted a thread asking DU HAM operators to post their calls and frequencies. He, and many of us have seen that a threat to DU was coming down the pike. It is a VERY important thread. Consider that a shutdown of the web, or a lot of sites that deal with exposing the Cheney Junta, would be a real problem for protecting America from the criminals in power.

Go to the thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2472909

Copy down the call numbers and frequencies your DU pals broadcast on. Dust off any short wave receiver you have. It could be very important in the very near future. We have to stay connected and keep people informed.

[Erika]

383. DU is a threat to the GOP false reality

Trolls need to be watched closely.

[havocmom]

385. False Reality is their hide out. Cheney's Junta is full of criminals

and the cops (us and the other voters we have all helped reach with truth) are getting them surrounded. Makes them more dangerous than usual

Me, I'm taking DemoTex's advice and dusting off the old short wave radio. DemoTex used to live on same block as Cheney. I trust his judgement. ;)

[bridgit]

384. k&r'd; no one should be diluted; these are very serious times indeed for our nation...

usurpers & disruptors internally & externally, foreign & domestic...i would that the entirety of civil & balanced discourse be returned to this nation from the dark & odd corners into which it has been wantonly scattered to include, but not limited to: the willful cursing into the faces of elected officials in the well of the senate as a means to stifle debate but that's just me, otherwise...

what is the probability disruptors could get some ball rolling, post some of the very most rank & vile gibberish, and plant a flag on top any tent they intend to ala a contemporaneous silicon Donald Segretti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Segretti :shrug:

[Octafish]

387. Thanks, Skinner.

I agree and support every word you wrote 100-percent.
There's no place for advocating violence against anyone.
I also appreciate you going to the mat to protect our right to privacy,
and our rights to freedom of expression, information and association.
Doing all this, you're upholding the Constitution.

Way to go.

[Bitwit1234]

388. Unless they threaten to Kill or bomb

And anyone who does that is stupid no matter what their party. Don't we have freedom of speech still. I think bush sucks and I will never understand how he got to be president. Yes I do-- he stole it.

It seems tho that the republicans have the right to incite people to kill. Since Ann the man requests that all the time. Wonder why SHE is not locked up.

But then I suppose the secret service does not care if dems are threatened only republicans.

[pitohui]

391. stay strong, friend

i'm on the road and didn't intend to spend much time online over the next few weeks

and i prob. shouldn't post and give the secret service yet another poster to waste time investigating

but somehow i feel i must

we can dissent without wanting violence or harm to come to anyone -- indeed, most of us dissent because we hate violence and harm

i have no questions, just want to wish you well

[kster]

397. Thanks Skinner, but if they show up again

Could you tell them that we have reason to believe, that the 2004 election was stolen, and that they should get up off their asses and contact the proper authorities, to at the very least, start an investigation.

[petgoat]

398. One question: Is advocating that the President be impeached,

that he be tried for treason, that he be shipped to The Hague in chains to answer
for his war crimes considered advocating harm under DU rules?

[Skinner]

424. That is fine. (nt)

[Kali]

404. Parallel to the Card Carrying ACLU meme

If these suspects were freepers, how ironic that the damn liberals are standing up to the man to protect a couple of moran troublemakers' privacy. None are so blind as those who won't see. (or however that goes)

While I echo the thanks for doing what you are doing, Skinner, I also feel that is what you should be doing and that it is not so much praiseworthy as it is a duty.

[AikidoSoul]

445. It's not "moran" -- you guys keep spelling MORON wrong

Yeah, I know. picky, picky, picky. But it just has so much more power and meaning when you call people a word that means dumb dolts instead calling them the names of some small towns in the U.S. The dumb ass/ dolt meaning is spelled MORON. MORAN on the other hand is the spelling for several small towns located in Kansans, Michigan, Texas and Wyoming. Since the feds are now monitoring this site, we ought to run spell check so they'll admire not only our brilliance, humor and fairness -- but our ability to SPELL and use proper grammar!

Now... lets try this again.

Them there freepers whut trolled our site and whut made trouble for us here DUers are morons!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

And hello to you too officer Mike. Can I call you Mikey?:hi:

[Kali]

446. ahem....

inside joke, now you are in on it. Welcome to DU.:toast:

[Ptah]

447. Hamburger

[LTR]

406. Thanks for filling us in, and a couple questions

First, in a situation like this, do you keep a record of the offending post(s) or do you or the mods delete it outright on sight, scattering it to the winds?

And second, I noticed that some people expressed the desire to talk about the "Death of a President" movie. I saw bits and pieces of it, and it looked kinda boring. Can we talk about "Borat" instead?

Just kidding about that last one, BTW. A little humor to lighten up this somewhat somber thread.

[Skinner]

427. We keep a record of most -- but not all -- deleted posts. (nt)

[RadiDem]

407. Already made it into the Wikipedia article where a homeland security agent works!

[radfringe]

408. I'm wondering

how many of those who were banned last week are shaking in their boots now wondering if they were the ones the SS want to talk to..

I'm sure they and others, while not being able to post, are sure to be lurking

[AntiFascist]

410. I applaud Skinner for taking this stand, it just dawned on me...

its significance. Recently I posted on some of the parallels between Hitler's Germany and the United States under GWB. Many would shrug this off, saying that the situation, no matter how bad it becomes, could never become as bad as Nazi Germany...after all this is America -- we defeated the Nazis. Regardless, some of the parallels remain.

Skinner himself may respond to this post, saying that I am overreacting -- that by no means is he taking a stand against anything remotely resembling Nazism, he is simply trying to protect our identities. Regardless, some of the parallels remain.

Specifically, the parallel I am referring to involves the elimination of Habeas Corpus, and how it now allows Bush, who is on the path to becoming the Unitary Executive, to have the ability to put anyone in prison who he felt was in opposition to his leadership -- much like the SS under Adolph Hitler. In this case, the "SS" refers to the Schutzstaffel, the organization which evolved from being a mere paramilitary personal bodyguard unit for Nazi leader Adolph Hitler to being one of the largest and most powerful military organizations in Nazi Germany (lets hope this last case does not turn into a parallel). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

At any rate, what drove Hitler's ability to become a full dictator was intensive propaganda, brutal persuasion, and a certain hypnotic power over the people. Let's hope that Skinner and the members of the military who are taking small, but significant stands against potential oncoming tyranny will help to keep the majority of Americans from falling under the hypnotic power of this Administration and the media which serves it. I also hope that I am overreacting.

On edit: I'm not criticizing the Secret Service for doing, what clearly is, their job. I'm just applauding Skinner for taking the necessary protections which might otherwise allow this investigation to set certain precedents.

[6000eliot]

411. Good for you, David.

Even if they were stupid jerks, at least they still (might) have rights.

[dysfunctional press]

415. the secret service came to my door in august 2001...

over something that i had posted in the Bartcop forum-

somebody had asked if there was a way under the constitution that al gore could become president brfore an election in 2004- i replied that yes- if al won election to congress in 2002- with enough of a democratic majority to elect him speaker of the house, then all it would have taken would have been the simple matter of a double-execution, and al would be president- the secret service took the "double-execution" thing a little TOO seriously(they couldn't tell that i had tongue firmly planted in cheek), and sent some agents over to talk to me- and remember, this was PRIOR to 9/11 by a month.

[kath]

432. In no way was what you wrote a threat - this is exactly the sort of situation

I was referring to in my post #165. Dammit, you were speaking of a hypothetical, and you were NOT in any way threatening the life of the pResident. Sheesh. So if you talk about the hypothetical death of the Resident, or express a wish that the fokker drop dead tomorrow or next week, the SS shows up at your door?!?!
Can't have any of those thought crimes, can we?

They seem to be spending a lot of time investigating people who are not voicing what any normal person would call "threats", but rather people who are, or just might be, having "evil thoughts" about the pResident. Like the young woman who had the SS come crashing into her apartment because she had some sort of anti-Bush poster... (if you don't like Our Dear Leader, that's an "evil thought", and not allowed, don'cha know?)

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[AikidoSoul]

449. Kath... you're not getting it ...

What got him in trouble was a specific statement which was "...then all it would have taken would have been the simple matter of a double-execution,..."

How can anyone who doesn't know him and the context of his words to know his real intent?

Look, if you were working in the Secret Service, you would know that it is your job to investigate every potential threat, and that it is also your job to never make assumptions about intent until thoroughly investigated. It's likely that most of these episodes turn out to be absolutely nothing but idiotic spouting off, but if it's your job to determine what's real and what's not -- you would still need to look into it because it's your job to enforce the law, which means to investigate each threat. You may think this is intrusive and of course that is true, but it's meant to be. The point is that the law has been around for awhile and maybe it's good for this discussion board to realize that this is actually a federal law that is real, has been around for awhile, and is taken seriously.

What would be most interesting is to know how many such investigations have been conducted for previous presidents and vice presidents.

:eyes:

Officer Mikey... do you have any facts and figures you can share with us on that one? We are a very curious bunch and that is something that indeed would be very interesting to know.B-)

[wizstars]

417. Were they Secret Service or KGWB agents?

(I still think Tom Ridge looked like a Commissar, minus the battle ribbons)

[graywarrior]

418. DU's response to this are the reason I continue to support DU

[terrya]

419. Thank you Skinner

I'm not informed enough to make any comments or ask any questions about this situation.

Just thank you.

[atommom]

425. Thanks for telling us about this. We appreciate being informed! nt

[lonestarnot]

431. Yikes Skinner! We won't let them waterboard ye.

:hug:

[dailykoff]

433. Hats off to DU

for defending our rights and for letting us know that they've been threatened. Please keep us updated.

p.s. this is no doubt a routine (and unnecessary) investigation, but the timing is fortuitous, and it's hard to believe it isn't primarily intended to intimidate. "Protection" is the DHS's #1 function.

[NotGivingUp]

434. welcome to amerika! where we pay people to spy on us!

[shadowknows69]

435. I don't have anything further to add really

but I couldn't be absent from this thread when so many of my fellow DUers chimed in. Solidarity. We'll all join the database together.

[VelmaD]

436. If they ever ask you for my information...

feel free to give it to them. They can come to get me and I'll tell them to go fuck themselves to their faces.

That said, I admire y'all standing on principle. :yourock:

[dipsydoodle]

438. With respect to the current Resident

John Prine sums it up pretty well :

Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind
You open up their hearts
And here's what you'll find
A few frozen pizzas
Some ice cubes with hair
A broken Popsicle
You don't want to go there

Some humans ain't human
Though they walk like we do
They live and they breathe
Just to turn the old screw
They screw you when you're sleeping
They try to screw you blind
Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind

You might go to church
And sit down in a pew
Those humans who ain't human
Could be sittin' right next to you
They talk about your family
They talk about your clothes
When they don't know their own ass
From their own elbows

Jealousy and stupidity
Don't equal harmony
Jealousy and stupidity
Don't equal harmony



Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shit on your hood

Or you're feeling your freedom
And the world's off your back
Some cowboy from Texas
Starts his own war in Iraq

Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind
They lie through their teeth
With their head up their behind
You open up their hearts
And here's what you'll find
Some humans ain't human
Some people ain't kind

edit - bit like darts this : rec'd the post and hit 180 !

[wecandoitthistime]

439. Ha , I just got booted from FR for telling them off about their post on us.

They have copied content from this site and put it on theirs. Is that against the law?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1726699/posts?q=1&&page=1

adjusted link.

[Hepburn]

444. Yes.

It is an infringement of copyright law if it is posted without the permission of the author. If the author has not given permission, then there must be a link to the source of the what is being quoted. That link does not necessarily have to be a URL link ~~ a book and page, a newspaper and date, or other source which credits the author will do. Anything which is originally composed is subject to copyright law ~~ so, yes, it applies to posts on the DR.

So, yeah, IMO, the Freepers broke the law ~~ anyone surprised?

[survivor999]

441. VERY SAD to see my tax money squandered like this.

Yes, those who are plotting something serious will post their plans here at DU, in public. The only good thing about this is that it was probably freepers intentionaly trying to disrupt DU. So, if they get in trouble that would be fun.

[Alcibiades]

443. What a waste of time

For every John Hinkley, there are dozens who are in prison for threatening the president. Most of these fellows are complete and total nutjobs who lack the foresight needed to plan and carry out an assassination. Others are fools who do it for attention or because they are too stupid to know that it's a federal crime to threaten the president. Only the ones who don't have good lawyers get sent to prison.

Real murderers and assassins don't threaten their victims before they strike. They just do it.

Enforcing this law is a waste of time and resources for the Secret Service, the FBI, and whoever else is involved in investigating such things. These agencies are obligated to take these things seriously, but I think it is high time we change the law. It's silly to be wasting law enforcement's time with this, what with the war on terra and all.

[shance]

450. Thank you for posting Skinner. What are they afraid of?

The truth?

[In_The_Wind]

455. Gee Whiz Skinner! I would never advocate harming anyone.

[upi402]

458. Thank you DU

:patriot: