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Has Cheney Cheneyed himself by admitting that we waterboard detainees?

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 11:35 PM
Original message
Poll question: Has Cheney Cheneyed himself by admitting that we waterboard detainees?
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 11:36 PM by originalpckelly
If you haven't already seen this:

Cheney confirms that detainees were subjected to water-boarding



By Jonathan S. Landay McClatchy Newspapers

"WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney has confirmed that U.S. interrogators subjected captured senior al-Qaida suspects to a controversial interrogation technique called "water-boarding," which creates a sensation of drowning.

Cheney indicated that the Bush administration doesn't regard water-boarding as torture and allows the CIA to use it. "It's a no-brainer for me," Cheney said at one point in an interview.

Cheney's comments, in a White House interview on Tuesday with a conservative radio talk show host, appeared to reflect the Bush administration's view that the president has the constitutional power to do whatever he deems necessary to fight terrorism.

The U.S. Army, senior Republican lawmakers, human rights experts and many experts on the laws of war, however, consider water-boarding cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment that's banned by U.S. law and by international treaties that prohibit torture. Some intelligence professionals argue that it often provides false or misleading information because many subjects will tell their interrogators what they think they want to hear to make the water-boarding stop.

Republican Sens. John Warner of Virginia, John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina have said that a law Bush signed last month prohibits water-boarding. The three are the sponsors of the Military Commissions Act, which authorized the administration to continue its interrogations of enemy combatants."
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/columnists/jonathan_s_landay/15847918.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_jonathan_s_landay
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. First to say that Cheney Cheneyed himself
I'll have to read the post now - sounds delicious :D
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. If it gets picked up by the MSM...
this stuff has a way of disappearing, but I am not letting this go. Nor should you. This man is evil and he must step down NOW!
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nobody hates Cheney more than me :D
Edited on Wed Oct-25-06 11:40 PM by Mr_Spock
I'll make sure this info is spread around to my little circle anyway. I hope this man goes down - I don't mind bush making an ass out of himslef for 2 more useless years, but this evil mofo has got to go back to hell where he was created. :evilgrin:
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, we may not have to wait..
but who knows like I said.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Did the MCA outlaw waterboarding?
I don't recall: The Military Commissions Act spells out various "torture" activities as prohibited. Did it explicitly call out waterboarding? (I don't think it did.) If not, then what is or is not torture is up to the executive's judgment. Further, what this executive decides (i.e. the Prez) is not subject to the jurisdiction of any court. And further still, everyone in the executive branch or acting on behalf of the executive branch is protected from prosecution back to 1996 (or 2001?) insofar as they conform to this executive interpretation.

I don't think Cheney cheneyed himself, I think he just rubbed our face in it.

(Apologies: I'd verify the remarks above against MCA text except I'm travelling for business and about to run off for a celebration -- maybe someone here with better recall or google skills can confirm or refute.)
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well if you read the article...
it said that the senators who voted for it thought that waterboarding was outlawed by it.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I don't think what our esteemed Senators, especially...
...Republican Senators, say they "think" they voted for matters much. What's important is what the bill (now law) actually says. As I am back (from the celebration), I will check...

...this is what it looks like to me: From the MCA of 2006, the following is prohibited: Activity that yields:

    (I) a substantial risk of death;
    (II) extreme physical pain;
    (III) a burn or physical disfigurement of a serious nature (other than cuts, abrasions, or bruises); or
    (IV) significant loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty.

      (ii) The term `severe mental pain or suffering' has the meaning given that term in section 2340(2) of title 18.
      (iii) The term `serious mental pain or suffering' has the meaning given the term `severe mental pain or suffering' in section 2340(2) of title 18, except that--

        (I) the term `serious' shall replace the term `severe' where it appears; and
        (II) as to conduct occurring after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, the term `serious and non-transitory mental harm (which need not be prolonged)' shall replace the term `prolonged mental harm' where it appears.
Waterboarding does not risk death; it does not produce extreme physical pain, burns, or disfigurement. It causes reflex panic reactions. Note that the MCA replaces text in 2340(2) of title 18 that makes mental harm permissible, as long as it is not "serious and non-transitory mental harm". A couple of hours of waterboarding, though serious, can be construed as mental harm short of "non-transitory". I do not thing the MCA makes it clear that waterboarding is impermissible. The lack of clarity is what makes it a tragic joke, as Bushboi's argument for this was that our torturers in the field needed to clearly know that what they were doing was not a crime if the "program" was to continue (as if it was already broadly accepted that the torture program should continue!!). It makes nothing clear except wiggle room and cover for the executive.

With respect to any alien declared by the executive to be an unlawful enemy combatant, everything not explicitly prohibited -- and I argue here that waterboarding is not explicitly prohibited -- is subject to the interpretation of the executive, not the judiciary. The alien non-combatant cannot appeal to the Geneva Conventions nor even have his/her case heard via habeus corpus, but can be held indefinately and waterboarded until his/her torturers are too tired to torture any more.

The U.S. citizen declared an enemy combatant does have his/her day in court, but then is at the mercy of the judiciary as it sorts through what is permissible and what is not, as it creates a blurry line between what the Bush Terror Regime would like to do and what we'd like to prohibit. What is clear is this bill creates high risk that even a U.S. citizen can be "lawfully" detained and tortured at the whim of the executive.

Bush's law clarifies none of this, but it does clear up one thing: It protects the Bush administration from prosecution for the crimes against humanity and against the Geneva Conventions already committed in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, and the various secret torture prisons spanning the globe. Bush signed his own Get Out of Jail Free card when he signed the MCA, and Cheney is rubbing our faces in it.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. Cheney shot a lawyer in the face and got away with it
I think it's safe to say Deadeye Dick just don't give a fuck.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. You mean he doesn't give a Cheney.
:-)
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. I sit corrected.
:blush:
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No need to be embarrassed it happens to the best of us...
just don't (Herman Goring) your self.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. No danger of that
Is it still OK to refer to the Veep as Lord Voldemort, or must we euphemize it as, "You Know Who?"

;)
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. !!



The Palace of Peace
The Hague
Home of the International Criminal Court

Photo from the Dossier Nederland (The Netherlands)
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Darth is a Sociopath.
He is an evil person that should be in prison. America is in disgrace and he is part of that. I am and have been ashamed to be an American Citizen for a long time. I am not only Disturbed. I am utterly disgusted with this US Govt.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Will Cheney "Goring" himself?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yes. Arrogance breeds stupidity.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. What is sad is that this is that Cheney was interviewed Tuesday...
so no one paid any attention to it.
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Theduckno2 Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. Yes, he sure kicked the cr*p out of any plausible deniablity he had.
No doubt he was the one who talked Chimpy out of joining the International Criminal Court.

I glimpsed him on TV recently, still trying to sell "They Hate Our Freedoms" snakeoil.

Loath is just too mild a description of my feelings towards Dick Cheney.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Most people in America really dislike him...
he has what and 18% percent approval rating? Yeah, this guy is not popular. He is so evil and think Americans pick up on that.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
18. This story is now on MSNBC.com
Edited on Thu Oct-26-06 04:46 PM by originalpckelly
because the financial times of the uk put a story out about it. When or if the AP or Reuters puts a story out about it, it break even harder and appear in every major newspaper in America and around the world.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15433467/
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