What is the point to voting if the election is already stolen?

[bryant69]

I mean if you believe that Diebold has already stolen the election, why bother? I personally believe that while some electoral hanky-panky is possible, even probable, it's not as simple as Karl Rove pressing a button that says "Republicans win."

But I"m curious what others think - I think it's clear that if it's not the majority view, clearly a sizable minority of you believe that we have no chance of winning because of Diebold. So why bother with the electoral systm at all? Why not do something else (i.e. some form of protest outside of the system) or turn your efforts to things that will be more rewarding?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[GreenTea]

1. How hard is it to vote? It takes only a few minutes!!!

The more people that come out to vote the more difficult it will be to steal certain races!

Yes, absolutely the republicans will be stealing seats, does that mean we just give up?

They stole for years now in so many states before, and nothing has happened to them except they put more republicans in power, so of course they will be stealing again, they are extremely desperate this election with good reason...they own the fucking Diebold voting machines...and they keep getting away with it.

But we have to vote...and in big numbers, if we are ever going to get rid of these easily hackable electronic voting machines and return to the paper ballot.

[Stevepol]

23. I agree we have to vote, but we should not deny the facts.

We know with near certainty that elections have been and are being stolen. The exit polls don't jibe with the alleged results, and the discrepancy makes no sense. This is in addition to many other facts that can't be disputed.

So it's almost certain that the elections have been stolen.

Exactly how it was and is being done, however, is not at all clear. Was it done thru the central tabulators? Was it done thru hacking or technical patching or malicious programming at the factory? Or was it a combination of all these and more?

Since we don't verify the machine count with required audits (except in a handful of states), there's no way at present to know precisely how the elections have been stolen. We can be certain that we don't have a democracy. When the vote is counted in total secrecy without verification, you can't, by definition, have a democracy.

We need to vote in large numbers regardless. I personally don't think the Dems will win much this election cycle because of the machines, but I'm not at all sure of that. And I hope like crazy I'm wwrong. Every state is different and the climate is different now as well. The multitude of lawsuits may be having an effect on the mafia groups (the machine vendors primarily) who are deciding results and on others who might be tempted to cheat. The large numbers and the enormous unpopularity of the present administration could negate the effects. It's really impossible to say.

I'll continue to hope and pray that we can change the Congress and the government, but I'll have to say I'm not optimistic at this point. I think it will take at least two more election cycles before these criminals are circumvented and/or arrested and we begin to restore democracy in America.

Nevertheless, I'll be a very interested observer of the elections, and I definitely will be voting.

[GreenTea]

33. Cheers Stevepol! - You put it so much better than I....Thanks!

Your paragraph sums it all up for me...I feel the exact same way...only you stated it so much more eloquently....

"We need to vote in large numbers regardless. I personally don't think the Dems will win much this election cycle because of the machines, but I'm not at all sure of that. And I hope like crazy I'm wrong. Every state is different and the climate is different now as well. The multitude of lawsuits may be having an effect on the mafia groups (the machine vendors primarily) who are deciding results and on others who might be tempted to cheat. The large numbers and the enormous unpopularity of the present administration could negate the effects. It's really impossible to say."

In my opinion... We truly need to go back to easily re-countable & audited paper ballots...This is NOT going backwards! If paper ballots can (and they do) cut down on cheating, then it's a move FORWARD, after learning from our electronic voting machine mistakes & fraud of the past.

[Lex]

2. Let's VOTE and also work to improve the way we vote

so it can't be tampered with.

[BOSSHOG]

3. I look forward to being a witness at the trial

Yes, I voted for every democrat in XYZ precinct in the state of abc; if it comes to that. If I don't vote I won't be called as a witness.

Cosmically rational answer.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

4. I'll Still Vote

How difficult is it really. But does my vote count? Can the results be fixed, rendering my vote even more meaningless?

Those are answers I don't know. All I can do is vote, and do my part to support Democratic candidates. Everything else is being manipulated by forces far greater than my measly vote.

[Double T]

5. Vote!! THEN, don't let your vote be disenfranchised by the equipment.....

'WE' WILL TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY and OUR RIGHT TO HAVE OUR VOTE COUNT!!!! Three strikes and 'THEIR' OUT!!!

[WilliamPitt]

6. Check this out

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22THE+FIX+IS+IN+site:www.democraticunderground.com&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=TSHA,TSHA:2005-19,TSHA:en&start=0&sa=N

That Google search displays how many times "the fix is in" has been posted on DU in one place or another.

There are a lot of people here who seem to really want the rest of us to throw up our hands in despair, because the cause is hopeless. I posted a thread on this yesterday, but it got locked as flamebait. Selah.

That Google search is revealing.

[GreenTea]

13. Are you saying...

The republicans don't steal elections with their electronic voting machines?

Are you saying a Diebold machine can't be hacked in less than 90 seconds?

Are you also saying the republicans won't be trying to steal this election for some reason?

As I've always said. we MUST still vote---but certainly not keep our heads in the sand and ignore facts as so many Dem leaders (and others) feel comfortable doing. So VOTE and encourage others to VOTE, but again, be aware of the facts...

Perhaps you can convince if you would explain a few of these links...

http://www.jhunewsletter.com/media/storage/paper932/news/2006/10/05/News/Professor.Exposes.Electronic.Voting.Flaws-2335370.shtml?norewrite200610171457&sourcedomain=www.jhunewsletter.com

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan...

http://www.2020hindsight.org/2006/09/14/di...

http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/...

http://www.bradblog.com /

http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=733

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/104...

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...

Here is a link to ALL 50 Secretary of States (See what states have republican SoS counting & certifying the votes)....

http://www.fvap.gov/links/statelinks.html

[bryant69]

17. Good response

"Gosh there are electoral problems, but some of these threads are defeatists."

"Ah so you don't believe there are any electoral problems?"

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[WilliamPitt]

20. Right?

When did you stop beating your wife?

[endarkenment]

22. Your opening sentence

"I mean if you believe that Diebold has already stolen the election, why bother?"

I think most of us here firmly believe that there will once again be widespread election fraud, as there has been since 2000. While some posters here may be trying to discourage us and suppress the vote, we certainly have our share of trolls, moles and naifs, most who post on this subject are trying to raise awareness and let people know what we are up against. We are going to vote with our eyes wide open, thanks.

So do you think that there is widespread election fraud?

[bryant69]

25. Not in the sense that most people seem to use that word

Many people use it in a very simplistic manner - President Bush could have killed Lassie on stage during the debates and flung his brains into the crowd, and it wouldn't have mattered because Karl Rove would have pressed the Diebold button and the election is in the bad.

I believe rather that attempts to steal the election are going to be a bit more haphazard and scattered than that - they will exist and they need to be resisted at every turn, but our electoral system is not so corrupt that there's no hope at all.

I'm curious - if the Democrats take the house, will you change your opinion on electoral fraud?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[endarkenment]

26. " will you change your opinion "

My opinion is based on evidence not faith. If there is evidence of widespread fraud, as there was for example in Ohio with Kerry in 2004, I will continue to believe that there is a concerted coordinated effort to rig the vote. Of course as one of the reforms instituted after the exit polls in 2004 clearly indicated that something irregular happened in Ohio the solution was, quite naturally, to abolish exit polls, the evidence will be much harder to come by this time.

[bryant69]

28. Nice tap dancing

But of course you didn't answer the question.

Bryant

[endarkenment]

30. Yes I did.

My belief here is based on evidence not faith. It certainly is not based on who wins or loses. If the fraud fails to steal enough votes it didn't happen? Sorry if I don't buy into that.

What I did say is that as there will not be any exit polls it is going to be damned hard to collect evidence of fraud. Gee I wonder why there aren't going to be any exit polls? What's your guess about that?

So if the regular polls indicate that on election day we ought to win say 30 seats in the house and we end up winning 3, and there is sufficient evidence of irregularities (although see above, evidence is going to hard to get) yes of course I will continue to be pissed off about votes being stolen. Won't you?

So do you think that election fraud is a serious problem?

[bryant69]

32. Well I think it's obvious that I don't

I mean, come on - if I were serious about election fraud I would have exactly the same opinion on it as you - the fact that I don't share your beliefs exactly shows that I am either a nitwit who doesn't think it's a real problem or a blackguard here to encourage complacency on behalf of the RNC.

Bryant

[endarkenment]

34. I'm sorry I missed the part where I was calling you names.

I guess we aren't actually going to discuss this issue, are we?

[bryant69]

37. Do you see the pattern in these questions?

So do you think that there is widespread election fraud?

So do you think that election fraud is a serious problem?

The implication is that I don't take voter fraud seriously - because I'm questioning whether or not we are already defeated in November. And that's not mentioning your even more overt questions to Mr. Pitt. They are ambush questions - of course the answer to both questions is "yes." I do think voter fraud is a serious problem - but not one that means we have alrady lost the fall elections.

Bryant

[endarkenment]

38. So you get to ask questions and I don't?

Hmmm seems a bit unfair. You asked me a question and I answered it, twice. I've asked you the same question rephrased about six times and you still haven't answered it and instead have decided to make this personal. OK fine. have a nice day. cheers. later. whatever.

[bryant69]

39. What do you mean I haven't answered it ?

I've said several times that I think there are electoral problems, but that they do not rise to the level of Game Over.

Bryant

[Toots]

48. So when the GOP "wins" this election will you say "I told you so"

You don't want to deal with an uncomfortable truth, I can understand that but to say it isn't so is just..........:shrug:

[flyarm]

7. if we have overwhelming numbers voting they can't steal it!!

it will only work if we have mediocre numbers of dems voting..so vote..make sure your vote will count ..call your supervisor of elections today and make sure you are registered..do a double check..and vote..and make sure every dem you know votes..

volunteer to be a driver election day for seniors who no longer drive..

voluneer to pick up absentee ballots of seniors ..or people unable to mail them in..and then hand deliver them ..

voluneer in any way you can..

if you give up we as a nation will fail..

we will fail to take and protect our democracy!

if dems have massive numbers voting and we "lose"..it will be very evident to all Americans our elections are being stolen or messed with..

staying home and not voting is not an option..its a cop out!


if you do not vote , what rights do you think you have to say a damn thing about how we are governed!

vote and help others to vote..

do something!!

fly

[liberal N proud]

11. That is how I look at it. Get the masses to vote

The wider the margin, the harder it is to steal.

Case in point, With Ted Strickland leading Blackwell by 20 or more points, it makes it hard for him to steal the election, even as he owns the process in Ohio. Hence the dirty tricks on voter registration but that is another post.

[Iwasthere]

24. Thats the secret

A mass vote !!!!! Our only hope

[LaPera]

41. You got it right! And pay attention to exit polls, they are accurate, not

the Diebold machines.

[LSK]

45. do not vote early

The crowds have to show up on NOVEMBER 7 for the MSM to talk about overwhelming numbers.

[flyarm]

46. exactly!! do not early vote!!..it lets them know the % they have to steal

it by..take the day off nov 7th if possible..and vote that day!!

and help others get to the polling places!!

fly

[kenny blankenship]

8. you have to keep voting- what if this election the cheating was stopped,

and you (and hundreds of thousands or even millions of other Democrats) had neglected to vote?
Then the Rape-ohs wouldn't even need to steal it.

BTW: it's not a button that KKKarl pushes, it's probably dozens of people in state Republican parties and county boards of elections who hold and certify elections, particularly in a well-known battleground states like Ohio and Florida. It's decentralized and done on the self-authorization and initiative of local Republicans who know how important the races they manage are. (How could they not know?) Outstanding efforts like K. Harris' in 2000 and Ken Blackwell's are rewarded by the central party leadership, but they aren't ordered to do anything. They don't have to be ordered. Just as everyone knows how important winning in the battleground states is, they also know that plausible deniability (for the RNC) has to be more than just plausible, it needs to be absolute deniability.

[blm]

9. We do BOTH - Vote and FOREWARN of HOW the votes can be stolen

Who says you can't do both or SHOULDN'T do both?

[frogcycle]

10. hold on there!

I think many of us believe there was fraud in the past two elections and there will be fraud in this one.

BUT

stealing an election is only feasible if its close. regardless of how well you think you're covering your tracks, you want to make as few tracks to cover as you possibly can.

So believing that they are going to siphon off some votes in close elections is the reason to be suire to get out the vote. Don't let there BE close elections.

We all know that there were plenty of stories of "the exit polls were wrong" and such, and were dismayed that they just seemed to die on the vine. Kerry threw in the towel too soon, as far as many are concerned. Even if it would not have changed the outcome, there should have been aggressive pursuit of the allegations of fraud, and some people should have gone to jail.



Well, that was then and this is now.

We need an avalanche of democratic votes.
One of three things can happen:

in desperation they reach a little further, tweak a few more, and get caught red-handed.
Or
they consider it hopeless and turn off thetheft engines
Or they keep trying, but we bury them anyway

If the latter happens, we can still probably get the goods on them and send people to jail.


But NO WAY is not voting an option, no matter what!

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. Make that the past three elections and I will continue to vote for as

long as we're allowed too.

[endarkenment]

27. Exactly.

But I guess we are not supposed to talk about the fraud as, according to Will and now Bryant, we are discouraging people from voting. Mums the word.

[RufusEarl]

12. I'll offer this!

A stolen election by electronic means can work both ways! so by all means go vote!

[treestar]

14. Because if we don't, then they could win just because of that!

If they only win because of fraud, make them have to do the fraud - at least they can be caught!

I don't believe they can hack an election, not unless it is really close, which it does not look like it will be - but if they can, I'm certainly going to vote to MAKE them have to hack it.

[endarkenment]

15. Nice try.

Sorry but I am going to vote despite the fact that they are going to cheat. I refuse to close my eyes to what is going on and I refuse to give up just because the assclowns are committing crimes. If we stop voting they win. If we pretend they are not cheating they win.

The election fraud can only work if the real vote count is close. If they are forced to commit outrageous fraud there will be no way to cover up what they have doen.

[meldroc]

18. Cheating can only do so much before it becomes obvious...

Cheating methods can only do so much to swing an election before they become too difficult to implement without getting caught.

If the election's close, it's relatively easy to switch it from 51-49 to 49-51 while keeping the election results plausible, and keeping evidence of election fraud to a minimum.

If you've got a landslide - 65-35, all of the sudden, you have to swing 15% of the votes. That's a lot of potential evidence for election fraud. On top of that, a heavy swing like that is not just a statistical anomoly, it's completely implausible. It becomes obvious to everyone that the election's been cooked, and there will be protests, lawsuits and criminal investigations.

So it's important for everyone who's a Democrat (or at least hates the current gang of Repubs to want to fire them this November) to get out and vote, to make sure there's a large enough margin of victory to ensure the fraudsters can't swing the election the other way without it being obvious.

[BurtWorm]

19. The more who vote Democratic, the more difficult it is for Reepers

to steal the election.

[walldude]

21. It's pretty clear that the Republicans are in trouble

I think if the Dems don't at least take the House suspicions are going to be running high. With everything thats going on the media smells blood and if the Repugs walk away with both the House and Senate again, the media won't be thinking that election fraud is all just "tin foil hat stuff" this time. I did read somewhere yesterday that the administration isn't even planning for the contingency of losing, so I'm sure they are up to something, but I don't think they will get away with it this time. Get out and vote.

[SmokingJacket]

29. Not voting makes your "almost certainty" into "absolute certainty"

that the repubs will win.

I think they've tinkered before and will tinker again; however, I'm uncertain how extensive the cheating is, how powerful "they" are, etc.

There aren't too many people who are SOO certain the fix is in that they won't vote. In fact, I believe lots of people say "the fix is in!" when what they really mean is, "I'm afraid the fix is in!" or "what if the fix is in!" or "what are we going to do if it turns out the fix was in?"

And many of us threw our hearts into the 2004 election and don't want to be burned again, but damn it, we'll vote our buns off.

[Lex]

40. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[Perky]

31. You folks are missing the obvious.

The only way to insure fair elections is to get involved at the precinct level. Become qa Poll worker. Helpl count the ballots. Become leaders on election day. Run the election. listen and learn about process and security measures. Make sure your machines are secure. make sure local precinct level results match waht is being reported at the county level.


HELP count the Ballots at every level. Control the machines. Protect the Constitution. That is all that it takes to insure a fair election.

If you are soo intensly worried about the GOP stealing elections for the Love of GOd. Quit Pissing and moaning and DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE!!!!!

[endarkenment]

36. HELP count the Ballots ?

I am all for getting involved at the precinct level but do so with full knowledge that this is only part of the puzzle. How do you make sure that an electronic voting machine is secure? I'm really curious how exactly you think that can be done by a volunteer poll worker.

[Perky]

43. You get to know the process

You ask questions you spend time in the electon office prior to the the election. You look at chain of custody issues. You look at the process for locking down the machines. You understand the cert process.

Early education is a key to understanding what is appropriate on election day.



Let me ask a question because I need educating on this...is the concern with EV that the machine code can be tampered with or is it that the fraud can occur during tabulation at the county office?

[endarkenment]

47. Both.

The DRE touchscreen systems are unverifiable. Certainly the vendors, as has been amply documented, have opportunity and means to implement anything they want to implement and to leave all sorts of mechanisms in place for manipulation. The vulnerability of these systems to outside interference has also been well documented. Poll workers can only look at the outside of the system, how the heck are they supposed to monitor the software? The central tabulation systems are both unverifiable and out of sight of the precinct volunteers. The system is massively rotten and vulnerable and it has been made so deliberately.

However, like I said, volunteering to be at the precincts is an important part of the process, but we need to be aware of just how bad the problem is.

[Generator]

35. Obviously there are a many points

First and foremost, voting is always local. There are schools, roads, police, taxes, health care issues, gay rights, rights to abortion and on and on an on-that are going to affect me and most of you in your daily life far more than any of the things we scream about on a daily basis here on DU.

In the past few years in Oregon we've had all of them from Gay rights to smoking, to to death with dignity acts, currently there is a teen parental notification law that I'm against and a school funding that are the most important to me right now. Also the governor. Ron Saxton makes me ill.


If you are really pissed, leave the congress races blank. OH my GOD, if Dems take back the house, America will be saved. I wish I could believe that. Past behavior is the biggest indicator of future behavior. Are they magically going to rip off their Republican appeasing cloak to revel the TRUE DEMOCRAT that was in there all along? Mmmm I just don't think so. But, sure I can darken the little oval with a number 2 pencil one more time. If nothing, for old times sake at least.

I don't know how much fraud there is. Where I live, I believe my votes are counted. I don't trust the four zillion other districts with all the shenanigans and voting machines.

The point of being darn convinced that the last presidential election was stolen is not to not vote. IT's what happens if all the polls and the exit polls (if they still "allow" them hardee har har) show that Democrats are winning winning winning and at the last moment the Republicans magically win. Are we going to accept it again? (I'd say we will, we always do) Will the NEW chanting cry be on to 2008! like it was in 2004 or now 2006?

At some point the gig is up and America isn't a Democracy anymore. It's already there for me. All these horrors that have happened since 11/2/2004 shouldn't have. Kerry won the electoral college. The votes weren't allowed or counted. Whose country is this? I don't know. I'm staying tunned to find out though.

[leftofthedial]

42. if we don't vote

they don't HAVE to steal it

our only hope for the future of democracy is to bring them to justice for election fraud

[jazzjunkysue]

44. Because they can't rig all the states and districts. So, vote.