Diversity Anyone? (Pic Heavy)

[JCMach1]

Maybe because I teach in a University with 70 different nationalities, but I think we really need to learn to accept diversity. It's just a veil people and no different from countless other religious and/or social expressions. Last time I checked, my American girls had no trouble learning from Muslim lady teachers... no problems at all... Nor, would I feel uncomfortable with teachers from any of these other traditions...

[Totallybushed]

1. Just a thought, but

diversity must be a two-way street, or it will fail. Your American girl teachers may have no trouble learning from Muslims ladies, but do Muslim boys have trouble learning from American ladies? Do Muslim girls have trouble learning from American men? Are Muslims willing to learn about religion from a Christian or Jewish perspective? Why are there classes in California where the students say Muslim prayers, and dress as Muslims for a week or two, but none where the students dress as Catholic priests and say the rosary?

I'm not advocating this. It would be horrible. And I'm not Catholic. But why isn't it horrible what actually does happen? I guess my point is that minorities have at least as much obligation to understand the majority culture as the majority culture does to understand them.

And there are so many minority cultures. People come from all over the world for a chance to be Americans.

I don't mean to pick on Muslims, or Mexicans, or anyone else. I'm just asking that they give what they expect to get. Sometimes many of them fail to do so.

And then, they have rights in our country, and that's only as it should be, but we have very few in theirs. Try to immigrate to Mexico and become a Mexican citizen. Even after you have accomplished it, you are still a second class citizen who cannot hold government jobs, etc.

OK. I don't mean to rant. But I feel that even with the Bushco regime screwing things up for everybody, this is still a better place to live than anywhere else. The people are more tolerant despite the bad apples. YOu can practice your religion, or state your politics without fear (so far).

[JCMach1]

2. I teach covered women all the time in a Co-ed University

on the Arabian Gulf... OF course they have no trouble learning from me...

In my travels, I was in many ways shocked to find Europe (including Britain) much less tolerant (in some ways) than the United States. America is not perfect by any means, but this is a HUGE problem in Europe.

[riderinthestorm]

4. I'm thinking you were the one who said that it was a "necessity"

for women to be veiled and gloved in your workplace, on one of the big threads (I'm on dialup and just can't open them anymore, even your pics are tough on this thread).

Why is it a "necessity"? I thought that was a really odd word choice for a progressive? I'm not trying to be snarky, just curious about why women MUST wear that stuff (beyond the fact that it's the law I'm supposing).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. It's tradition.

Like Jews not eating pork.

Should people who don't eat pork be allowed to teach children? Hmm. I bet that would scare the children. Better not allow it, just to be safe.

[riderinthestorm]

7. I'm asking JCMach about his specific use of "necessity"

He didn't say it was tradition, he said it was a "necessity" at his workplace for the women to be fully veiled and gloved.

Thanks for the utterly gratuitous swipe however....
:wtf:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. I thought you said you weren't trying to be snarky?

You know, it is a necessary for many employers to cater to the diets of their employees... kosher, vegetarian items in the cafeteria, etc.

[riderinthestorm]

16. I'm not. Are you following me?

Taking swipes for some reason? It's getting just a bit wierd....

I'm not disputing any of your points on this thread - they're great points, what is your problem?

[Clark2008]

8. I don't eat pork (makes me sick)

But Muslims don't eat pork, either. So they get double-whammied! They cover AND don't eat pork.

:hi:

[JCMach1]

9. Not me... it's not a necessity here (UAE)

Some women do however as part of their cultural/religious practice. It's also only a law in KSA and Iran.

Most working women (and there are many of them here) choose a more pragmatic approach to dress depending on the profession.

Interestingly enough, Abayas also have turned into FASHION now. One of my students I noticed just yesterday was wearing a fetching, very cool, form-hugging abaya with a Dior shayla.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. I've seen those on television.

They're quite attractive.

[riderinthestorm]

13. Okay, cool. Just trying to find the person who said it was a "necessity"

in their workplace - I could have sworn it was a guy in the UAE posting on the big 700 plus thread.

When I get back to my office with the DSL I'll try to look it up...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. That was JCMach1

Apparently you've misinterpreted what he was saying.

[riderinthestorm]

23. I'll look it up later when I get to my office and post it. nt

[JCMach1]

24. Crikey did say that... necessity of the workplace

to be able to adapt to women wearing veils... I should have finished the sentence... you must excuse i have a sinus infection and fever today

:hi:

[riderinthestorm]

27. .

Just an FYI, I haven't been on that thread for a couple of days so it's gone uncorrected for a while.

It's a pretty big mistake to leave go, and a disservice to the UAE.
:hi:

[seabeyond]

22. i refuse a life of tit for tat. it cannot be. if i am only willing to be

progressive if the next person is willing, it will never happen. if i only love because another is willing it will not happen. if i am tolerant only cause another is tolerant of me,it will not happen.

i cannot be responsible for everyones behavior, only mine. i will accept the responsibility of my behavior and live in a manner that i feel is the most healing for my fellow man. and maybe that will bleed off to others. i walk my path, not others path.... on my journey, not others journeys. it is theirs to do their own

[JCMach1]

30. Exactly, I want us to celebrate the world in its infinite diversity

even something as simple as sharing the joy of talking with a veiled women and knowing how to read that she is smiling and laughing at you. IT's really not hard, just another cultural emanation.

When asked about this issue by my students, I answer them...

No one (not even a parent) should tell you, or force you to wear cover. Ultimately, that is between you and God. And if that is NOT the reason, you should take it off immediately!

[seabeyond]

34. even some old stinky toothless dirty bum...... there is beauty in all

but yes. it is nice to the soul to read your post. of course one would be able to feel her smile and feel the energy of who she is as a person and the special lesson in a person covered and still.... having the ability. i have been so surprised by the posts on this board. i see it as a wonderful opportunity and experience for my children. i see the possibility of so much gained for them in such an experience that now i want it for them, knowing the lack of diversity in the very red religious belt panhandle of texas. i would give anything for my children to have that opportunity. i jumped on that question, only to be surprised by so many of the posters.

i talked to both boys about the whole thing, one almost 9 and one 11. the good the bad and the ugly. of both the religion, our religion, the cultures, accepting the veil if a person choses it, and the challenges for the women to allow, knowing what it stands for. my boys got it. wasnt beyond them, or hard for them. they understood there were a lot of different angles to this very small piece of life

it is not just the right that so tightly sit in that box. it is the society today. on both sides of the fence. and i refuse. i cant. i wouldnt know how.

[Totallybushed]

31. That's very nice.

I admire you for it. But if others are not tolerant, then you will soon cease to exist if you do not learn to protect yourself. Tolerance requires mutuality and reciprocity, because most people will soon learn not to associate with those that constantly harm them. Verbally or physically.

Let me ask you this: How much tolerance do you have for Republicans, fundies, redneck racists, etc.? Me neither. What about Islamic terrorists, Muslim fundies, black racists? What's your racial, ethnic, gender, or religious group? Don't answer that, just think about it. Is there any person or group out there that hates your guts because of membership in that group? That wants to kill you, or limit your free expression of your ideas and ideals? Or imprison you? Are you tolerant of them?

If so, you are a better progressive than I am. And why am I not tolerant of them? Because they are not tolerant of me. Tolerance is a two-way street.

[seabeyond]

32. at one point a couple years ago i surrendered to surrender.

have you ever heard of the saying surrender to it, and it will disappear, no longer be a battle, no longer be an issue. it is part of growth. surrender to sadness, surrender to anger, surrender...... and in surrender you become empowered. one morning i surrendered to surrender and i became free, literally

what brought me to that point was learning to be tolerate of the intolerant, my biggest nemesis.

i have found over the couple of years of living this way, people do not take advantage, people are not intolerant (even though their ego projects they are) in the heart they are not.... maybe it is my energy they feed off of. maybe it is connecting spirit to spirit even though they do oppose who i am. but i have found myself LESS vulnerable instead of how the brain would convince us that we are MORE vulnerable. thinking of vulnerability is what makes you vulnerable. if you allow yourself to be vulnerable, the word literally disappears, because there is nothing being protected, nothing hidden, nothing to attack.

not only am i tolerant of the fundie, or the republican, but i love them with all my heart. and i adamantly and in love, passionately disagree with them. sometimes even in anger. but always..... they feel love.

and i certainly do not believe in protect yourself. from what???? what is so scary and fearful out there? 45years old, i have yet to meet the boogey man. it is like a religious friend that says she must put on the armor of god to protect her,..... before delving into certain aspects of life that scares her. the armor is false. the protection is false. we already are. i use to agree with what you say. over time i feel the complete opposite of what you say

[Totallybushed]

35. I understand, sort of.

Some years back I was betrayed by a friend ( at least I thought she was). Because of her lies, I lost my job, my house, my savings, everything but my family. Because of them, I managed to put the pieces of my life back together, and now I have far more, materially, than I did before the back-stabbing bitch did me in. I mean I had done nothing wrong, and especially, I had not harmed her in any way.

However, enough self-pity. The point is that when you have nothing left to lose, it is amazingly freeing. So, I do understand your "surrender" bit, I think.

But, I have met the "bogeyman", and next time I see one, I shall take up the sword of righteousness and "slay" it before it gets me, or somebody else.

[seabeyond]

36. you probably do get it from the sounds of it

your experience. lets go into story telling. arch angel micheal. angel defender. i use to feel very much like him, pulling out the sword to do battle in righteousness,..... and then i learned, that it is done in love. honesty, truth, purity..... win win for all... and always a triumph. if someone choses not to have win win, a lost opportunity, but there is always another presented. i understand that another is making their choices cause of the journeys they have chosen. i cannot, nor would i dare to decide that it should be different

what a life altering experience you had and all the lessons in it, the opportunities presented. the identifying worth of family, the freedom (surrender) to be left with nothing, yet still you survived. and probably saw you were ok. wow.

the "bitch" on the other hand, making the choices she does, is really insignificant. i sat thinking how to talk about her, and boiled down to insignificant.

i have never been a sucker,.... i am not trusting that people will do good, i am not naive. i understand human is capable of anything. just want to be clear, i am not talking doormat. never have been, never will. dont know that i can. i tried to be humble once, bah hahahah, i failed miserably.

[Totallybushed]

38. Insignificant.

That about sums her up. Besides, I felt a lot better about it a few years later when I found out she had tried the same thing on my successor and come a tremendous cropper at it. Seems he took the warnings of the people that had believed me, instead of her, seriously.

Last I had heard, she had moved back to Mama's house in Texas, a fate worse than death, IMO.

[Totallybushed]

42. I've been thinking abot it, and

I'd like to add just one more thing.

When I said that losing everything was amazingly freeing, I really meant it. All my life I had been in a career that I hated, but it paid too much money. I lacked the courage to strike out in a new direction.

When disaster sruck, I had my chance to change my career path, and I took it. It's paid off for me. When life hands you a lemon....? Eh?

When you've lost everything, your fear evaporates. That is whaat is so freeing.

[seabeyond]

44. amazingly freeing, I really meant it.

that is clear.

this is how i have experienced life. even the very worse things in life i have found the good. it is led me to learn,there is a higher in ALL things, even the bad. find the higher in it.... life is so much easier. and i agree with your lemon thing, but i tend to say, shit happens (life) it is what you do with it.

because of your bad experience something amazingly good happened. why i don't fight divine plan. maybe it is meant to happen cause it is the nudge we need from spirit to make the right choices. some listen, some don't and continually experience the same over and over....

good for you. thanks for sharing

oh and the fear thing. fear itself is a delusion. it isnt real. the pain of fear comes when we run from it, turn from it, but face it, it vanishes,.... there is no fear, there is no pain. it is always the past (which isnt real in the now) or a future you are thinking (which isnt happening in now) it is something the mind creates for us. so i agree with you there too

love your story

[Totallybushed]

45. Thanks.

I have to disagree with you about fear, though. It is real and has real consequences. But you are correct, it has to be faced. You have to confront whatever it is that you fear. 'Cause it's not going to go away on it's own.

There are things out there that should be feared. Otherwise, why do we hate Bush so much, eh? Fear of what he's done;fear of what he can do?

[seabeyond]

46. i love the fear issue. i certainly still experience it, but i hold to

what i state. fear of bush. of what might happen. i look around, i have nothing to fear. i think what could happen fear becomes, a pain becomes yet here i am sittin in peace. all because of what my mind creates could be. could be is not real. could be hasnt happened. could be might not be, yet here i sit in pain. i dont fear bush. he doesnt scare me at all. people dont scare me. events dont scare me. those arent my fears. i have confidence in those area thinking i will be able to find a higher.

my fears are more.... bear, shark. sittin in a forest next to a creek, my mind starts thinking of a bear creeping up behind me. the chemical within starts firing up. my mind starts creating a story. it gets bigger, until i am near panick...all the while i sit peacefully next to a creek, sun shining on me in warmth and not a cingle issue in the now. but what a story my brain created

thinking in past at old boyfriend. going thru the rejection, the breakup, creating a whole story in our brain to relive. it is done and over with. not experiencing it now. but in our brain we do from the story we tel ourselves. and we feel the real pain, of a story we tell ourselves even though we are sittin in peace and safety.

fear is always, what was, or what could be. it is never the now of it......

when you bring your mind from the future, or from the past to the now, you will physically see the fear vanish.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Neighbor of mine works at a university.

she's not a teacher, meaning a research associate. Which would mean she's more highly educated than most of the people in that big thread. She also wears traditional muslim headwear.

She's got her picture on a bulletin board with everybody else in the department in her building. Some racist asshole kept coming up and defacing or stealing her picture. In solidarity, the other women in the department took their pictures wearing hijabs too and posted those.

[Clark2008]

5. LOL!!

Now THAT'S the way to do it!

I :loveya: that idea! How incredibly, wonderfully perfect!

[LostinVA]

12. Apples and oranges -- nothing to do with the veiled UK teacher

Not ONE PERSON on any of the threads decried a Muslim teaching in a school -- or even a woman wearing a headscarf.

[Clark2008]

14. Maybe oranges and nectarines.

I think preventing someone from practicing their religion is against the First Amendment. I wasn't concerned about which religion they were practicing.

[JCMach1]

15. A women in a headscarf teaching school-- yes

i.e. tradional cultural/religious wear...

So, it is the same issue.

Are we doing to live up to our liberal, democratic ideals and embrace diversity along with our common culture...

OR, are we going to continue systematically demonizing particular groups whenever it is politically expedient?

OF course the teacher should be allowed to teach.

[riderinthestorm]

20. You do know that she is an ESL teacher

and that her students complained that they couldn't see her mouth forming the words properly?

Which implies that she was wearing the mask in the class.

She was suspended after about 6 months for not performing her job properly.

She has since stated that she would take the mask off in the class, but won't take it off in the public areas where she may have to deal with other children and/or staff even though that means that some percentage of the school population will not be able to communicate with her.

[JCMach1]

25. It is NOT and most definitely NOT a MASK

a mask is designed to change and hide your features... Even the language being used to discuss this issue is loaded. Masks also have many negative connotations.


Unless these kids are deaf, there really shouldn't be a problem.

[riderinthestorm]

26. We don't know if she had any handicapped kids in her class

and clearly the kids and the school think there's a problem.

It's going to court though so I'm hoping more information will come out then about the facts of the case. It's not a religious discrimination case though, it's about job performance regardless of what vocabulary anyone wants to use for her face covering.

[JCMach1]

28. Yeah, but reminds me of my Oklahoma State students

who would come in and complain about their teacher's accents... usually asian, or Indian...

Meanwhile their drawl would be as thick as molasses on a cold day...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. LOL

[riderinthestorm]

33. Except in this case, her imam, her Muslim MP and the UK Islamic orgs

all support the school's decision to let her go.

You can try to paint this as some kind of "bigoted" maneuver by the school but even her religious leaders don't back the teacher's aide's position.

[JCMach1]

40. So minority rights don't matter now?

I posted in another thread there is a common sense solution.

i.e. no cover with kids... cover when men come into the work area. That would be very reasonable.

However, these cases have become as much about politics as they are about religion. Like wearing an afro or long hair in the 1960's and going to school. Britain has a huge race problem that its just beginning to fathom.

[riderinthestorm]

41. This is about job performance, not minority rights or religious rights

No matter how you want it to be different. It's not even about politics although clearly the woman wants to make it be about that too.

I agree, clearly there is a common sense solution. But since even her own religious community doesn't agree with her position, I'm guessing she rejected this kind of compromise.

Also, clearly the UK has a racism problem.

[JCMach1]

43. Labour party is channeling John Bull in the face of electoral

defeat because of their Iraq policy and other issues... They will continue to make these things issues...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Eh.

They decried her for being a muslim.

Muslims are the boogeyman de jour.

Out of almost 700 posts, there was no good argument as to why that woman should not be a teacher. Not one argument that stood up to the light of common sense. In fact, so many of them were so patently stupid that the only conclusion one can make is that it's just plain old fasioned racism.

[TahitiNut]

19. "learn to accept diversity"??? BULLSHIT!! Total bullshit!

Do people need to learn to accept a Sunday buffet of a wide selection of foods? Of course not. Do people "tolerate" a midway with dozens of different rides? Of course not. Do people reject a clothing store with various styles and colors? On what fucking planet?

Diversity isn't to be 'tolerated" -- it's to be CELEBRATED! Good grief! When I have the good fortuen to be in the company of a wide vairiety of people, I feel like a pig in shit ... I wallow. It's like being an a candy store with someone else's credit card!

[JCMach1]

21. Over here, they embrace those things... what few people realize

about the Middle-East is that the US won the cultural war YEARS ago.

The UAE is fast becoming more American that America... culture-wise that is...

[seabeyond]

37. learn to accept a Sunday buffet .... ya

i had a christmas dinner. a cavaier dish that was to die for and shrimp along with the other normal texan, lol lol, stuff. i had employees here. many said no way would they ever try fish eggs. and one employee refusing the shrimp said it was bad,(bible says) and refuses to eat anything from the ocean. even i am intolerant of some foods out on the sunday buffet table, wink


"tolerate" a midway with dozens of different rides? yA
i am so fearful of hieghts that i cannot even look at some of the rides because i can just feel all of a sudden themfallingout at the hughest of places, ergo me creating thier death. hate em. very intolerant. dont even like going.


reject a clothing store with various styles and colors? absolutely. the clothes our for women have all been 70's brown orange and lime green. i havent bought anything for a couple years, though i am in great need cause i cant stand those colors and style


i know what you are saying that to tolerate is in and of itself insulting. but baby steps. it is the first step. if a person can get to tolerance then they will see.... feel ..... know an appreciation

but i like what you say....always. playing with you here

[BoneDaddy]

39. I love diversity

I think that the world is a much better place with diversity, but that has never been the issue for me. For me the issue is the separation of church and state.

Now if we remove the muslim woman from the scene and replaced her with a fundamentalist born again bible thumping Christian who chose to wear a massive cross on her neck or a "hair shirt", I think the tone would be much different in here.

For me the issue is it appropriate, within a secular, public arena for people to be advertising their tradition and faith, complete with all of it's irrational beliefs (such as women need to be covered or males will rape her nonsense). For me the answer is no.

In any private arena I think people can practice whatever they want. No one is hindering a person's expression of faith by requiring them to adhere to the norms of the culture within which they voluntarily came to.
I say this again, if I was to go to ANY different land, i would NEVER assume that the people of that country and it's laws need to change to acoomodate my personal or tribal tastes.

So why do we do it here?

Take this a step further. What if the teacher or public servant was a bruja/o (witch) and her/his tradition required them to wear, let's say, a chicken foot around their neck, or to sprinkle the blood of a newly decapitated chicken to "clear the air of negative spirits", would that also be necessary to adapt into our culture as ok?

I think where naive liberalism and extreme multiculturalism go off the deep end is when they PUSH other people's cultures onto our own and that there is the belief that we need to accept every tenet from every culture as being good and if we don't we are considered intolerant at best and racist at worst.

I abhor the muslim practice of covering women. I think it is the one of the most extreme expressions of patriarchy. I don't hate the people, I despise the custom and for a progressive, rational society to HAVE TO accept these things is ludicrous.