Whay Hillary Clinton Can Not Win - Part #2

[demwing]

I started a thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2391113

Where I stated my opinion that there was a single reason Hillary can not win. Well, I've changed my mind. Flip-Flopped. Switched horses mid-stream, yada yada.

Hillary MUST not be elected. Any one who says that they believe that torture is ok, based on time and circumstances, must not be allowed near the oval office.

In case you've missed the story, Mrs. C said just that, and its spelled out right here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/the-immoral-moderates-h_b_31790.html

"I have said that those are very rare but if they occur there has to be some lawful authority for pursuing that ... there has to be some check and balance, some reporting ... in those instances where we have sufficient basis to believe there is something imminent."

So accepatable torture, if I'm following Hilalry here, is just a matter of lawful authority? I see. Torture isn't inherently bad, all we have to do is legalize it and regulate it, and then it will be legitimate. The end justifies any and all means. That's fucking rich!

What if the torture doesn't work? What if you've got the same scenario, but the "terrorist" is a tough sumfabitch, and does not crack. Hey! Lets torture his children! That'll crack his ass. Imagine the lives we'll save! All we have to do is sign a law, have an oversight comittee, and keep details of the torture procedures.

Then it'll be swell.

Someone please tell me what it is we're trying to fight for in America. It used to be that we fought for freedom and human rights, and against oppressiove forms of government.

Now, all we're fighting for is an illusion of safety. If we do not pull ourselves from this dark pitt, then we've become cowards. Spineless, worthless, hopeless cowards.

No, Hillary Clinton should not be elected President, not under any circumstances.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Can Anyone Give Me Any Specific

evidence as to why Ms. Clinton is anything other than a cash-and-power grabbing machine? I'm clearly not getting something about her that other people are.

[demwing]

3. Imagine this - based on her record, and her stances

If she were not Bill Clinton's wife, would there be any buzz about her running at all?

[MannyGoldstein]

6. I Don't Even "Get" Bill Clinton

To my mind, one of the worst things about Bush is that he makes Bill Clinton look great by comparison. Bill was a serial prevaricator whose policies were somewhat to the right of Eisenhower and Nixon, thanks to his triangulatin' ways.

(I wrote something similar the other day, and it was promptly censored by the DU contingent of the DLC. Apparently, one is not allowed to say disparaging things about the Clintons. Oh well, I await my fate.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Bill Clinton Put Breyer And Ginsburg On The Supreme Court...

That was enough for me...

If Gore was elected we wouldn't have Roberts or (Sc)ailito...


The Clinton presidency looks good now... Real good...

[pnwmom]

27. Hillary Clinton is the 10th most progressive Senator

in the Senate, according to her overall voting record as seen on www.progressivepunch.com

[demwing]

29. And Sarbanes is the most progressive

Why not run him?

Wait, what state is Sarbanes from?

Kennedy is the third, and while some might think he'd make a great Pres, would you want him as the nominee in 2008?

Barak Obama is #8, and many people on this board think him too conservative.

John Kerry rates well down the list at 23, and he's received more votes than any Dem ever.


That list says nothing about electability, or presidential worthiness. It only relates to Senate voting records.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

30. "many people on this board think him too conservative"

About half of this board thinks that Marx and Lenin were too conservative too -- but that's really no indication of what most of the country thinks.

[demwing]

31. And I should not have used the weasel words

"many people think" I should know better.

But my point is the same. The list is not a good indicator of Presidential readiness.

[pnwmom]

32. Hillary's voting record is the answer to the question

that was posed. She IS something other than a cash machine. She's one of the most progressive members of the Senate.

[bryant69]

2. The Ticking Bomb Scenario is a phoney scenario

It's a hypothetical to consider how far one would go.

If I believed that there was a ticking bomb in place where it would kill thousands and that torturing person X would allow me to stop that ticking bomb, I don't know what I would do - but I'm not going to pretend like I wouldn't understand someone who said they'd do it.

Of course most torture that we know about was clearly not following that scenario.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[demwing]

4. It's a slippery slope

You must not start justifying the unjustifiable.

[bryant69]

5. So what would you say to the families of those dead

who you could have saved?

"Sorry It's a slippery slope - those deaths were more justifiable than torture."

[MannyGoldstein]

8. I'd Say That We Did The Best We Could

Fortunately, eschewing torture is not only the civilized thing to do - it's also the effective thing to do. Torture has never been shown to be effective; however, in wars where we treated captives humanely (like that little blow-up in the 1940s), the results were excellent.

[bryant69]

11. Apples and oranges

I think that Hilary's statement clearly shows that she supports humane treatment for almost all prisoners of war - except in those rare ticking bomb scenarios.

There are gradations of torture - all the way from "Let's torture the hell out of everybody" to "Let's torture nobody never for no reason" Hillary's responses is a few steps to the right of "Let's torture nobody never for no reason." I'm not sure where I'm standing but I can see where she is coming from.

I appreciate that the position you've arrived at is "Lets Torture Nobody Never for No reason." You might well be right. But I don't think you are so right and Hilary is so wrong that this automatically proves her a blackguard. I'm not a huge Hilary fan (and I hope to God she doesn't run in 2008), but i'm not sure that's a fair charge.

Bryant

[demwing]

14. You assume the torture would have worked

Generally, tortured people either say nothing, or lie to end the torture. As one person sid - put a bunson burner to a mans genitals and he'll tell you anything--anything to end the pain.

How effective is that?

Let me ask you a question. What if you've got the wrong person being quaestioned? What if they DON"T know anything, and instead of persuing the real bad guy, you waste your time torturing the innocent?

How do you explain THAT to the families that suffer losses to terrorists. How do you explain that to the famiy of the tortured innocent?

Our constitution protects us from cruel and unusual punishments. What makes you think that torture would never be used against American citizens? Bush can already declare us enemy combatants. Are you really ready to thow out MORE of the constitution, for the perception of a little safety?

[bryant69]

18. You comfortable up there on your high horse?

The ticking bomb scenario assumes that you have the right man and that it will work - that's why it's a phony scenario. It's a thought experiment - like Schrodingers Cat I suppose. If you knew torture would work to get information out of a person that would save lives, would you do it?

And of course we don't need to through out any more of the constitution than what we've already thrown out. One assumes that if a person knows the location of a ticking bomb that will kill people, he actually is an enemy combatent, under the current standards and can thus be tortured at will. So no new violations of the constitution are necessary.

Bryant

[demwing]

24. Damn straight I'm comfortable

The US must NEVER engage in torture.

You can not possibly know that torture would work. Therefore, you must never use torture.

That Hillary got caught in such a stupid trap says something about her skills, and that she tried to rationalize some methods of torture says something about her scruples.

She's simply trying to avoid the fate of Dukakis. Dukakis gave a crappy answer when asked what he would do as a husband if his wife were raped. Mike appeared weak, Hillary wanted to appear tough.

Well, she may have pleased a few Republicans, but she didn't please me.

[ContraBass Black]

23. "We couldn't find the bomb in time, nor could we get reliable information

Out of the suspect. I am deeply, terribly sorry, and I tender my resignation."

[Bucky]

7. I suppose you're going next to tell me that Jack Bauer isn't real, too.

Wll let me tell you something Mister Bryant 69, if that even IS your real name. I know Jack Bauer is real, cause how else can you explain why all those terrorist nuke and nerve gas plots keep on failing, huh? Why aren't we all singing the Star's Bangled Banter in Arabic with our gay spouses like we would be if you liberals could have your owl-hugging tax-coddling ways, huh?

[bryant69]

9. You mean you're not?

Damn - we missed one - i'll send a squad around with the Star Spangled Banner translated into Arabic and a gay spouse.

Oh and hug trees not owls. Owls bite. Or peck. Something.

Bryant

[ContraBass Black]

22. The ticking time bomb scenario is when you want reliable information.

People under torture say whatever they think will make it stop.

When you need to know for certain right away, that's exactly the time to not torture the source.

[wuushew]

10. HRC is a moronic choice in the Electoral College

I figure she is only guaranteed 133 EV.

Almost any other candidate would be less risky, especially in the Midwest.
The Republicans will end up running someone like McCain or Hagel.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I Think I Could Carry Those States With A (D) After My Name...

eom

[Nite Owl]

19. She is not all that popular

in NY. A lot of people cringe at her name. She is way ahead in the Senate race because they quashed any opposition from within the party and the repukes are in total disaray in NY.

[BurtWorm]

15. Please try to be fair to what she actually said.

Believe me, I'm not a Hillary fan. (I voted for Tasini in the primary and am considering voting for Howie Hawkins in the general). But she did not say we should legalize torture.

I can't stand misrepresentation!

[demwing]

17. What she said was clear:

"I have said that those are very rare but if they occur there has to be some lawful authority for pursuing that ... there has to be some check and balance, some reporting ... in those instances where we have sufficient basis to believe there is something imminent."

"...some lawful authority for pursuing that..."

What does that mean, if not that there must be laws on the record allowing the pursuit of information through the use of some type of torture?

[BurtWorm]

21. You're glossing over the essence of what she is saying

which is that even if the very rare instance of a ticking time-bomb scenario arises in which torture might seem necessary to prevent an imminent attack, there must be a legal foundation for it rooted in the Constitution's requirement of checks and balances and due process. Her main point is not to argue for torture, but to argue for rule of law and legal precedent. It's a distortion to use this quote to say she is arguing in favor of torture. That is not the fundamental point she is making.

[onehandle]

16. Is there a Presidential election this year?

I must have missed the memo.

[demwing]

20. Its an election year

and this is a political chat board, and this is the General Discussion room.

We're allowed.

[Catherine Vincent]

25. Whay?

Are you from New York? :)

[pnwmom]

26. Hogwash. If Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee,

then she should be elected President, because the only alternative would be the Republican.

Any Republican candidate would have the same position on torture -- or worse --and a raft of other positions that we couldn't abide.

[demwing]

28. Very well, then, I rephrase

"Hillary Must Not Win The Democratic Nomination"

Still think she shouldnt get anywhere near the Presidency.

[pnwmom]

33. She is not my preferred candidate either

but if she is the nominee I will work hard to see her win.

[chat_noir]

34. Post these threads in the appropriate forum please

DU Groups » Democrats

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=348

Why do you folks think that this type of thread in the top forum is not a help to the other side?