I am Ready to Leave the USA. Any Suggestions of Where to Live?

[leftchick]

I would love to go to Canada but it seems we may be too old by the time we are able to leave in about two years. I am also considering Costa Rica, Panama and Mexico but any civilized non-fascist country will do. Please, any suggestions, help and/or links are greatly appreciated.

I am hoping for no "stay and fight" or "coward" responses. I have two young boys who deserve to have a real future. That is not going to happen in this country.

[LostinVA]

1. Belize

I can live and work in an EU country, and might well do it within the next few years.

[leftchick]

9. why?

have you been there? How easy is it to become a citizen?

[LostinVA]

28. Sorry --

I read about it alot online before I realized I could get Italian citizenship. They are some great web pages about moving there. It's kinda easy to become a citizen (it also has -- oddly -- a huge Amish population!), English is the official language, it's close to the US, etc.

[Nimrod2005]

177. One of my favorite places on EARTH!!! Sweden....For quality

of life, it does not get nay a better. It is cold, but cold there never hurt anyone.

[fed-up]

37. Belize is beautiful, my sis bailed out of the US and moved after 1/20/05..

I went down with her in early Jan of 2005 and Belize is a very beautiful, very laid back country if you can tolerate the heat.

Unless you like hurricanes stay away from the coast...

I suggest you visit first anywhere you are thinking of moving and to NOT buy property until you have lived there at least one year.

Some people like the slow pace of things and can deal with things like, BUGS, mosquitoes, NO water for days, intermittent electricity, local food in season, (rice and beans and beans and rice) and waiting forever for things to get repaired or fixed using local workers.

Here is a page with some info, seems government officials can be bribed as far as visas go and that the regulations do vary...and are constantly changing. No need to buy books as most of the information you need can be found online.

http://www.belizefirst.com/current.html

PERMANENT RESIDENCY APPLICATION FEES JUMP Costs for foreign nationals to apply for permanent residency status in Belize have increased significantly. Not including actual living costs (lodging, food, transportation, etc.) the cost just for government fees to apply for permanent residency now comes to around US$5000 to US$6,000 per couple. The fees involved:

• After the first month, the tourist card renewal is US$25 for the first three months, then US$50 a month thereafter, per person.

• New requirement reported by recent applicants: If you are staying more than three months you must apply for a work permit, even if you do not intend to work. The work permit fee is US$1500 annually for professional workers (with a college degree) and US$1000 for technical workers (non-degreed), self-employed workers and most other workers. Immigration rather than the Labour department is now processing work permits.

• After one year in Belize, not leaving for more than 14 days, there is a US$1000 application fee, again per person, to apply for permanent residency.

[H2O Man]

54. I have been

giving serious consideration to Belize. A few of my friends have looked into it; some have visited. One associate relocated there.

[Horse with no Name]

59. et tu waterman?

I have nothing but the deepest and most profound respect.
Is it time to go?

[H2O Man]

63. One of my closest friends

moved to Canada years ago. When we talk, he says, "Get out. Get your family out." When I talk to my family, including my children and my nieces and nephews, they tell me that this is their country, and they aren't going to leave.

I think that it is an individual and family choice. I do not think the people on here who say, "Bad choice" are thinking clearly. One person cannot pretend to know if it is a good choice for anyone from an internet discussion forum. Each person needs to think for themselves. I do not think there is a right or a wrong answer for each of us, and for our families.

[donheld]

234. he says, "Get out. Get your family out."

What basis does he give for saying this? Just curious.

[leftchick]

68. Belize

That sounds good to me. A lot of Central and South American countries are appealing. I am kind of surprised to see you exploring the issue H2O Man. So I am not being an alarmist as some have suggested?

[murray hill farm]

94. i live close to Belize, in Mexico...and have heard of

a lot of americans relocating from Belize to Mexico after having so many and increasing problems with not only the govt in Belize, but also the growing crime..and much of it against americans living in Belize. I talked to a couple who had moved from Belize to Isla Mujeres..and the moved out of Belize with just the clothes on their backs after being held at gun and knife point..and being forced one at a time to drive with their abductors to the bank with their debit cards and empty their accounts..they thought they were going to die..they said this was common in Belize for people who lived there..americans...not tourists...but americans who lived there. There is much concern for mexicans if they go to Belize...because of the crime.

[raccoon]

218. Thanks for sharing that with us.

I guess that could happen in Mexico too?

I've thought about moving to Mexico. I'm thinking about living on a modest scale, not having a great big house and pool and servants. I can't afford anything like that, even in Mexico.

[murray hill farm]

224. sure..i could happen anywhere...

but it apparently is happening in Belize now..these people were living in Corezan..which is close to the mexican border with Belize, but this type of crime has been a problem in Belize City for a long time...and it appears now to be spreading out to the outlieing towns as well..and dont get me wrong, i too love Belize and have spent a lot of time there in the past few years, camping and hiking..and never a bit of trouble..but i was a tourist. In general the problems in a country, do not effect tourists because the country ..any country that is so economically dependent of tourists..as is Belize and the yucatan in mexico..needs most to protect the reputation as being a safe place for tourists..and will turn heavily on their own, if anything is done to a tourist..ever..that will jeprodize that reputation as a place that is "safe" for tourism.

[im10ashus]

254. After doing my taxes last night, I too am thinking of relocating.

All the money they take from my paycheck in taxes and I STILL owe? It's ridiculous. Granted, I live in Manhattan, but geez! Give a guy a break. I hear Belgium is a great place. Beer and chocolate anyone?

[stevedeshazer]

108. Quitter

[slaveplanet]

258. I second that,

this fight is for all the marbles and those who flee will be met with slavery as well, as all the countries that are hooked up to the same Babylon monetery shitstem will adopt the same fascism. This is a worldwide takeover. Fleeing now is no better than central americans fleeing their respective countries because they refuse to fight their shitstem. Once america goes, Europe will quickly fall as well. There will be very few places of quarter this time round. Maybe if you own a well provisioned private island , you may be alright for a while...

[drfresh]

133. Please don't wimp out, we need your voice and your vote

It ain't over until the fat lady sings. As much as I can identify with wanting to move the fark out of the country, its better to stay and fight.

[leftchick]

165. I vote on Diebold touchscreens

or I used to. So much for that "vote".

[HEyHEY]

2. Stay and Fight you coward!

Seriously though, Canada just elected a con government, however they will be gone in a year...so, sure come here

[Geek_Girl]

61. I hope your right about the cons being gone in a year

Canada was my Plan B. I'm thinking about moving there in a few years.

[Brundle_Fly]

116. Cons in Canada.

although evil, are not americ'evil.

they want to do things that are what they say they are....

stop abortion, cut taxes, etc etc

they don't hide behind "clean skies" or any other Orwellian terms.

Canadians don't dig Conservos, they will be voted out if they break the mold...

We did it in 1992, voted the conservos out of existence.

[jrw14125]

3. Texas

[LostinVA]

6. She said civilized!

[TheWatcher]

157. You're going to be here long, I can tell

[babylonsister]

4. Here are two sites for you to check out:

www.escapeartist.com

www.boomersabroad.com

[William769]

5. Sorry but this is just pitiful.

[leftchick]

11. no

your sig line it pitiful. :eyes:

[William769]

18. What Country would want someone to flee their County

without a fight? I could name a few but why bother. Live free or die.

[mdmc]

74. I think (s)he has young kids...

Live free or die! Watch those words, son.

[Thtwudbeme]

75. or "Live Free and Have a Great Life."

Your choice.

I would leave too if I could.

[uppityperson]

134. USA took my grandparents. When did yours immigrate?

[jackstraw45]

250. What fight? WHAT fight?

Just curious if you are aware of some fight that we aren't....

When the elections are crooked and stolen with no reforms in sight, there IS no political change.

When laws are broken by the executive and NOTHING HAPPENS, there IS no political change.

When the Supreme Court, the FINAL say on the laws of the land, is tilted to the extreme for the next 20 years, there IS no political change.


So what fight are you talking about?

[alittlelark]

95. Damn, you're right... that sig line is.... uh....

pitiful.:puke:

[corporate_mike]

7. How about China?

lol

[NewJeffCT]

178. you could do a lot worse...

You can live comfortably in most major cities on a few hundred $ per month. Granted, you won't get a penthouse in downtown Shanghai, but probably a comfortable modern apartment.

Foreigners are usually treated pretty well

Educational system produces a ton of engineers & scientists

It's a rising economic superpower, so an investment in property there today will almost certainly grow in value.

You can get excellent modern medical care in all of the major cities on the East Coast.

The "repressive" government is rarely felt in day to day life.

Job as an English teacher or tutor is readily available

You can get high quality musical training for your boys at a fraction of the cost you could in the US... or similar (I joke with my wife that we're going to send our daughter to the Shaolin Temple to learn kung fu)

Holidays are a week to 10 days long.

downsides:
pollution in many areas is worse than Houston
health care system & coverage makes the US system look super by comparison (if you can get a job through a US university teaching English, it would be a big help)
no holds barred let the buyer beware capitalism prevails a lot of the time.
communist government is unpredictable

[neverevergivein]

8. not sure, but let us know when you get there

you might have company coming soon

[phusion]

10. Costa Rica is supposed to be wonderful

New Zealand isn't bad either.

edit: Have you seen the Democrats Abroad forum?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=194

[leftchick]

15. I have done a lot of NZ research

It sounds great but I don't think my hubby and I qualify. :(

[eridani]

159. If you qualify, it's a good option

The former chair of Health Care for All-Washington, relocated there after Bush cut Medicaid fees again. She was the only psychiatrist in the state who would see Medicaid patient. She gave up her car and house and moved into a small condo in order to be able to continue to do that. Eventually, she couldn't meet her own health care costs, and went someplace where she could get health care--NZ was very glad to get her.

[Ilsa]

47. my minister moved there with his wife. he loves it down there. eom

[joeunderdog]

102. Costa Rica R*O*C*K*S! ! !

Going for my 4th time on Sunday. They fucken HATE Bush and all that he stands for. They have no army, they are 97% literate, they have an intact social structure, they worship the planet and they are the nicest people (Ticos) that you will meet.

I've travelled many places. CR is definitely my favorite. I will live there someday.

Oh, yeah--and they put one of their presidents in jail for corruption. I fell in love right then and there when I heard that.

[eridani]

160. Never been there, but the son of one of my good friends agrees with you

He did a lot of footloose world travelling before falling in love with a Costa Rican woman and settling there. They have a new baby, and are living with several other families (native and ex-pat) trying to make a go of subsistence farming. They sell homemade jewelry to tourists for extra cash.

[leftchick]

174. What about the crime rate?

I am very interested in CR. It is the one place I mention that my husband actually looks interested in. :)

[joeunderdog]

179. San Jose, the capital, is bad--like NYC burroughs, but...

everywhere else in CR, I think it is one of the safest feeling places on the planet. You can't take a cab ride without the driver asking you about your family and what you do for work. They give you their home phone so that you can call them the next time you come. Really.

It is the Anti-America. They teach the culture of natural beauty in school and 75% of the country is protected. The place is paradise. I'm going to corcovado this time--National Geographic calls it the most biologically diverse jungle on Earth.

PR me if you want me to go on and on. I could.

[Cats Against Frist]

235. I love Costa Rica, too

As a stupid-ass 23 year old, I got drunk at Playa Jaco, during the deserted wet season, and went wandering around, in the middle of the night, by myself, and ended up passing out, in the dark, on the beach. Not a soul bothered me. I remember hanging out with some prostitues and the staff of a restaurant that had just closed, for the night. Did some dancing. Woke up with sand in my ear. The day before, we played soccer, on the beach, with the locals, and sat on a stump and talked to our taxi driver for like four hours.

Puntarenas is a shithole -- I loved San Jose, though and I would live at the hostel at Monteverde, forever. It was a beautiful country.

[Toucano]

204. Actually, 2 presidents have been jailed for corruption.

Can you imagine a world where people in power are held accountable? It's mind blowing!

[yellowdogmi]

12. I was voting for mexico

Somewhere by the sea. Please leave a forwarding address.

[stepnw1f]

13. Where the Heck ya Gonna Go?

You think you can escape this? Good luck....

[SmokingJacket]

14. What do you mean by "too old" for Canada?

Do they have an age limit? That really sucks if they do.

I have also two young boys and I just don't know what to do. WHERE has a future right now?

I still think this country has a chance of turning around in the next five years or so... I'm holding out a bit longer...

[leftchick]

23. We will both be 50 in a couple of years

There is not an age limit in Canada but if you do their test to see how you qualify the older you are the worse off your grade. :(

[DancingBear]

29. leftchick, we are 52 and 53 respectively

We have had prelim conversations with Canadian immigration people, and the primary consideration for folks over 50 and looking at Canada as a 'retirement" destination is income, i.e. how much $$ will you be bringing in.

Please follow up on that, and if we can help just PM us.

[tlsmith1963]

66. Oh, Good

I was scared for a moment there, because I will be 43 this year & I want to move to Canada if things get too crazy here. Good--I'm not "too old".

Tammy

[leftchick]

69. any idea as to how many $$ one needs?

Thank you DB. Canada is really my first choice if it can be done.

[DancingBear]

73. PM me

I'm jaded, due to the fact that we live in noVA and what seems like a fortune to some seems normal to us.

The amount is (if I recall) not insignificant, but not out of the realm of someone who was putting a decent amount of money away each month in a 401k for retirement.

I may not be able to get back to you for a day or two - Mrs. DB ("scruffy") will be recovering from some surgery, and I have to play nurse.

I look like shit in the white thigh-high's, BTW. :)

[pitohui]

98. amt i heard was $400K

if you have that laying around, you could stay in the usa, that is not the population that is going to be sent to the camps

[Nostradammit]

151. What is the population that will be sent to the camps, pitohui?

Got a figure? inside info? what's the cutoff?

[pitohui]

249. no inside knowledge but i'll c heck the crystal ball

there won't be any camps, the system we have had since nixon works perfectly well, make drugs both illegal and widespread, then arrest anyone you don't like or whose color you don't like for drugs

in recent years we have the twist that prisons are operated by private firms for profit

no one is ever arrested for a political crime, they're arrested for robbery or drugs or rape (and the dna sample was lost) and they're made completely unsympathetic

worked just fine in the 60s & 70s, will work just fine right now

if you want to be acknowledged as a political prisoner and be put in a concentration camp rather than just dismissed and disparaged as a prisoner, yeah, go to some foreign country, if the usa really does go to war against all, usa citizens will be rounded up as potential spies and kept in camps

but that will happen in your host country not at home

hey, the options aren't attractive any way you look at it, but you can spend a lot of time and money to "flee" and end up rounded up on suspicion, or you can stay here and at least have some tiny chance of being overlooked

it's ironic to me that when people are comparing us to germany, they won't look at what happened to ex-pat germans, they were rounded up in places as distant as brazil and africa, the only reason they weren't rounded up here is that half the yankees in the country have german heritage and you'd have to put the entire country behind the barbed wire

there is no running from a usa gone mad, not really

and to say you are running for freedom from alito, when you are running to countries where abortion is already illegal and women's rights already out of the question, come on, who are you kidding?

i may relocate, i enjoy exploring my options, but you will never be free-er than you are in your country of origin, in your host country you are going to be tracked, have paperwork, have to document income, etc

let's not kid ourselves why we relocate, it's usually for economics in the end

[pitohui]

97. if you're over age 45

you can forget canada unless you're muy rich

[Name removed]

16. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

17. I hear you

We are in the middle of a very large scale renovation of a home that we own in New England.

This was to be our retirement home.

I seriously do not know if we will be able to stay there, predicated on where this country is headed.

Soon, I will post on DU looking for serious information on Canada.

If my fears come true, I cannot stay here. I will fight like hell to stop them, but if not successful then the vision of what will be is very clear.

This country will be a full-blown fascist state, and anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening.

[Catchawave]

42. My Carribean Island fantasy.....

Now that we're retired, we can live anywhere in the world. We have friends in St.Thomas AND THEY LOVE IT, though I believe there's some U.S. protection ?

However, my fantasy bubble burst when I learned there are much worse gov't's than our own. At least we'll get rid of Bush in 3 years....I hope I can last that long :hi:

I also have friends living and loving New Zealand and The Netherlands !

[Ilsa]

46. Let's see if George will sell Maine to Canada for a hefty profit.

Then we could all move there as ex-pats.

[bliss_eternal]

82. Was there talk of this--

or are you kidding? I hope poor Maine has more say in if they are sold off or not... LOL!

[leftchick]

71. We have just gotten the plans for our addition to our home

It has been three years of saving and planning. Now I am trying to convince my husband that we need to stop the addition and use the money for relocation. It is a hard sell right now. :(

[Carni]

19. I don't think you want to take too young boys to Mexico to live

Unless the kidnapping thing I have heard is bullshit (and who knows)

[murray hill farm]

31. No worries...that kidnapping thing was way over played..and

unless you are a millionare..better a billionare, you do not need to worry...any more than u would in the usa...just do not live in a border town..either side of the border..they are dangerous and horrid places...for anyone. Where i live in Mexico..the yucatan..there are excellent school for kids...private and public..and even so many children of expats living in Mexico are home schooled..which is easier for everyone in the beginning adjustment to a new language, but most of the private schools encourage english. I knew many folks from the usa that moved to mexico with kids..and the kids loved it.

[Carni]

50. OK actually I think I have heard about the border town nightmares

Thanks for the info because I have never been there and have just heard the urban myth type stuff!

[Horse with no Name]

60. That can't be right

We ALL know that "they" come over hear "demanding" we speak Spanish.
Surely nobody "over there" is intelligent enough to learn English.:sarcasm:
Seriously leftchick, I have heard of the communities around Guadalajara and that you can live on $500 a month over there comfortably.

[pitohui]

104. so did i ... in 1988

I have heard of the communities around Guadalajara and that you can live on $500 a month over there comfortably.


much as we would like to assume the original poster is a troll, what if she is really serious, that is a mean suggestion and you know it!

to receive legal residency in that state you need to prove 2K a month in income

[Horse with no Name]

132. Hmmm

I KNOW the OP is NOT a troll.
What is a mean suggestion? To give someone some info that they request?
1988? Please.
Guess I will just have to give you the facts.
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/travel/Articles/a2004-01-21-mag-mexico.html
We had another reason for traveling south of the border: to see what it would cost. According to my research, something like half of the people in my generation haven't saved enough to retire comfortably. Meaning, if we hope to kick back in the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed, one of three things will have to happen. We'll have to either a) save a lot of money fast or b) win the lottery.

Or, alternatively, we could move to Mexico. I'd read a few of those how-to-retire books that claim you can live in Mexico on $400 a month, with all the frijoles you can eat, and my skeptical reaction was, "Oh, really?" So, I checked some other sources and found that, while our own lifestyle would take a considerable hit if we tried to get by on $400 a month, the cost of living well in Mexico can be quite low indeed. Our curiosity was piqued.

[leftchick]

167. ROFL!

"much as we would like to assume the original poster is a troll"!!!!!

:rofl:

[mdelaguna2000]

32. that's a Mexico city thing

and maybe some of the wilder states up north. I'd feel safer with my daughter in a Yucatan pueblo than any U.S. city. The grandmothers are always watching - no one walks down one of those one lane roads unnoticed. Mexico City - no way.

[Warpy]

34. It's bullshit

I go into Juarez quite frequently, and it's one of the toughest towns in Mexico. I always feel safer there than I do in El Paso, across the river. I've found the Mexicans to be pleasant, polite, and very helpful to a dumb Gringa who murders their language.

I might steer clear of Chiapas, though, which would seem to be a place where Gringos would be at risk of kidnapping in the hope they were wealthy enough to pay a ransom.

[Carni]

48. I had no idea if it was crap or not

Thanks for the info--I tended to think it was the stuff of faux news legend but really had no idea!

[pitohui]

105. i think chiapas is okay

one of my super clueless friends went biking there, no worries

i think the kidnapping spree is more the mexico city area as another poster stated

chiapas, veracruz, etc. seem to be v. pleasant states where everyone minds their own business

[pitohui]

101. mexico number one country for kidnapping

colombia is no. 2

it's bullshit for visitors, tourists are not the target, however, ex-pats yeah they're targets

[murray hill farm]

20. How about Mexico?

I just put my home up for sale there...it is a wonderful place to live...check out my house at caribbeanrealtytravel.com and give it some thought..ha! Aside for my pitch of my house..hehehe...Mexico really is a wonderful place to live. A good link for those thinking about mexico is mexicoconnect.com where there is all kinds of info on moving to or living in Mexico. Oh...my house is the last picture on the list of "homes for sale" called casa del parque.

[SoCalDem]

56. After you rode out Wilma, you're leaving?

It looks like a lovely place..:)

[helderheid]

21. If it gets too nuts, we'll go back to the Netherlands but I do hear Panama

is a great place to be an expat. A little closer is Loretto Bay, Mexico.

edited to add a link about loretto bay and to fix a typo:

http://www.loretobay.com/cms/index.html

Check that link out!! Even if things get back on track I want investment property there!!

Video here on their sustainable development:

http://www.loretobay.com/cms/index.html

Edited further to say PM me if you are interested in buying there - I have contacts and a license.

[helderheid]

103. surprised more people haven't said the Netherlands - talk about land of

the free!

[leftchick]

168. how easy is it to emigrate to?

All options are open for us. Do you have any useful links? :hi:

[helderheid]

220. Here are some sites. It was easy for me since my partner at the time now

husband is Dutch:

http://www.ind.nl/EN/index.asp <--- this is the official site I believe from the government

http://www.talent4europe.com/Netherlands/immigration.htm

http://www.bbb-verzekeringen.nl/immigration/

http://www.escapeartist.com/netherlands/expatriates.htm

http://www.learn4good.com/travel/groups/group2.htm

[enigma000]

225. Things aren't so great there

The population is shifting to the right and the Muslim population is becoming more radicalized.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=a311f97d-ebaf-49bf-9ced-4322198628e6&p=3

The more repressive the government and the more Muslim-unfriendly it is perceived to be, the more radicalized its Muslim youth become. The anger is palpable: Gone are the days of carefree strolls through Amsterdam streets or smiling nods to neighbours of another race. One looks twice now.

[eridani]

161. And land where you'd better learn Dutch and have a job lined up, no?

The "let's not talk about racism and it will go away" approach to their Muslim population is worrying as well.

[helderheid]

221. I haven't lived there since 2001 - I believe the racism has worsened since

I left. As far as jobs go, I know Americans who worked for American companies in Holland before learning Dutch.

[mmonk]

187. Wow, that Loreto Bay is beautiful

[helderheid]

223. It is - and that sustainable community is mostly filled with American and

Canadian expats who care about living in that kind of eco-friendly way.

[pitohui]

22. how much cash you got?

i've done a little research and i think panama is most affordable, followed by mexico

costa rica is out of my price range but has great doctors and health care, but i bet panama does too, i just haven't researched their health care system

the roads are for shit in costa rica so there's that

costa rica has a huge, huge, huge ex-pat population from canada and even a few usa-ians who buy little restaurants or hotels and sit around drinking all day, nice work if you can get it i guess but maybe bad for your liver and longevity

i really liked the vitality i experienced in panama and also some parts of mexico like the oil/port state of veracruz, which i guess is pretty comfortable for someone from louisiana, it just seems like home w. mountains and spanish

[mdelaguna2000]

24. Mexico - Yucatan

Belize is kind of rough, if you're living there and not so easy for expats (lots more expensive than Mexico), almost all food is imported. Fun to visit though (great islands, Maya ruins). I prefer Mexico, if I could figure out how to become gainfully employed there I would have gone long ago (not wanting a career change that is). Which state matters a lot in Mexico - i.e. Guerrero pretty lawless, Yucatan is wonderful - Merida and the surrounding towns (I'd stay away from the riviera crowd on the east coast unless you're in a certain tax bracket), Merida is also inland, less hurricanes, etc. You can buy a lot in one of the pueblos w/in 40km (or closer) of Merida for around $2k US (I was just there 3 weeks ago looking into this), buses running to town for $2-$3 all the time. Yucatan rocks, and the people are fantastic.

Canada is often on my thoughts too - if I ever get the chance. Heck, their conservatives are our moderates. I love the social consciousness of so many Canadians (including my hubby!)

[Jara sang]

67. I didn't think Americans could buy land in Mexico.

[helderheid]

86. see post 21 - you most certainly can.

[murray hill farm]

90. yes americans can buy land in Mexico!

If the land is not sea frontage or ocean frontage...or a few miles inland from the water, it can be purchased by non citizens. If it is close to or on the water, it can be leased with a 100 yr lease..which, in every way, is the same as ownership..except you have to pay the lease amount each year to the govt..usually about $500 american dollars each year...and the lease can be renewed after the first 100 yrs...which makes sense since you can leave your land to your heirs in you will.

[spun_in_montana]

25. Cash out, buy a

nice sailboat, live off the sea-watch out for Pirates.
Sorry, but thats what we are up to soon.

[Warpy]

26. I've got my town in Mexico all picked out

and it's a resort town way up in the mountains. I already manage border Spanglish, so I won't have too much trouble picking up the rest of the language. I like the country, its people, the food, the color, everything.

Other choices would be Belize and Costa Rica. If I hit the lottery, I might look toward southern Europe, some nice colony of UK exiles would do me just fine.

I'd still prefer Mexico for a lot of reasons.

[mdelaguna2000]

36. San Miguel de Allende or San Cristobal?

Just wonderin'? The latter may well be the most beautiful place on earth (ok, one of them).

[Warpy]

38. The latter is on my list

but I fell in love with Zacatecas. It's drop dead gorgeous. There are few roads because it's all up and down, and would force me to stay in better shape. It's one of the resorts the Mexicans use.

[mdelaguna2000]

41. more Mexicans less gringos always a good thing

... the "turistas" anyway. Sounds beautiful.

[Adelante]

93. Man, I love Zacatecas

It gets quite cold, but I love it. It's not a resort town, really, but a cultural and historical city. It's a very European-feeling medium-sized city set in gorgeous high desert mountain terrain. It has some great museums, too, which outside of Mexico City are not that easy to find.

[AnnInLa]

27. Each must do what he/she thinks best

The "Right to Die with Dignity"

The "Right to Flee with Dignity" The "Right to Stay and Fight with Dignity"

Do a search for Isla Mujeres, Mexico.....it's a great place.

[sproutster]

39. Of two minds.

Mind number One.

In "Interviews in Nuremburg" one of the questions posed was a accusatory "Why didn't you leave?" posed in a way that made the subject guilty of not leaving his homeland instead of staying. WTF... I thought it was outrageous. I determined no one would make me leave my home.

Mind number Two.

I look at my son.

[AnnInLa]

232. Exactly.....well said

I am of two minds as well.

[Habibi]

40. The "Right to Live in a Gated Community in Mexico with Dignity" . . .

[AnnInLa]

231. Actually, there are so many places to live in Mexico

that don't have gated communities. One such place is Isla Mujeres, MX, a small island off the coast of Cancun. Just simple, laid-back beach life...but, with all the modern conveniences, including internet cafes.

[Habibi]

242. Sounds wonderful

except, you know, for the hurricanes.

[meisje]

30. Can't we hold off of these threads until after the election?

[Pab Sungenis]

166. Are you even sure there's going to BE an election?

And if there is, that it's not going to be massively Diebolded?

[Fox Mulder]

33. Denmark or Switzerland.

They're pretty liberal. :shrug:

[leftchick]

78. I have been to Switzerland

and loved it. I am open to anything it is my husband I have to convice.

[zippy890]

35. come on up to massachusetts leftchick!

its a lot colder than where you live, but also a lot more tolerant I expect
and definately bluer.

:hi:

I'd be sorry if you left because your efforts are so helpful, but I understand your
feelings. If I could afford it I'd go to New Zealand, its just so far away - but they have
a great government,social programs and its spectacularly beautiful ( was there 20 years ago)

[debbierlus]

77. Massachusetts is NICE!

I live here, but it is EXPENSIVE.

Adams, MA is great. A postcard town. Lots of nice people. In the bluest county, in the bluest state!

Every place you go - nothing but Bush bashing! And, it comes from the young and the old.

I think states will start forming their own little seperate pseudo-countries - this is a good place to be.

The more liberals, the merrier!

[JanusAscending]

148. Hey!! Small world.....

Lived over the hill in Cheshire from 1970 'til 1984. Was in Pittsfield before that, from '64 to '70. I truly, truly miss the Berksires. I may come back some day. My best friends in the world still live there. I'm in the Litchfield Hills of Ct. right now.

[adigal]

260. Really - why can't our blue states form

some kind of federation?? And then let US push for states' rights, keeping our taxes in our own states, screw the red staters who vote for this fool and then want us to keep supporting them with the tax dollars that come from us and go to them.

I think we should start asking our representatives why we can NOT do this. YOu know??

[LiberalEsto]

43. I wish I knew the answer

I can claim Estonian citizenship if I want, meaning I could live and work in any EU country.
But I hate to leave the America I once loved and respected.

However if the Democrats won't fight for us, there's little left to stay for.

[Burning Water]

44. Mexico

Lot's of opportunity for your boys in Mexico.

[pitohui]

111. american citizens not allowed to hold jobs in mexico

it is highly unlikely she or her boys could have gainful employment, they would be welcome as permanent residents if they brought $$$ from outside

[Burning Water]

207. Sorta my point.

Whoops. Did I forget the sarcasm tag?

[converted_democrat]

219. Can you own a business outright in Mexico? n/t

[GrumpyGreg]

141. Not trying to be a spoiler here but if the opportunities are so

great in Mexico why on earth are there so many Mexicans leaving to come here?

Your post doesn't make sense to me.

[Burning Water]

208. That was my point.

I musta forgot my sarcasm tag.

[Loge23]

45. Panama is up & coming

We were in Panama last year and were struck at how Panama City has grown.
This country should be one of your research targets.
Mexico is also a good choice.
You will find many, many American ex-pats in either of the countries you mentioned.
I completely agree with your sentiment. Aren't some of the responses the same as "love it or leave it"??!
Please keep us posted on your progress!

[helderheid]

65. I totally agree. Some will stay and fight - kudos but some will leave and

we will have a worldwide DU network in case those who stay need to leave later. Nothing wrong with that.

[Extend a Hand]

49. I'm looking at Panama

It's one of the few places in Central/So. America stable enough that banks will do a 30year mortgage. No active volcanoes or hurricanes either.

to the coward responders: don't bother.
I'm so evil I pulled my kids out of crappy public schools too.

[earth mom]

51. I feel the same way and don't blame you one bit.

I'm looking into Canada myself.

[bliss_eternal]

92. Me, too!

:hi: I've been looking since Nov. '04 actually. LOL!

[thinkingwoman]

52. the real future of this country

depends on those of us willing to stay and fight.

I have 2 teens and I want them to have a future too. But part of that future is fighting for what's right. My ancestors (tracing FOUR lines back) were on this continent before the Revolutionary War, and I'm not going anywhere. I will be free, right here.

Good luck.

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. Ireland

[Just Me]

55. If I had the money, I'd relocate to New Zealand.

But, my SO and I have discussed setting up shop in Mexico if BushCO and the neoconsters succeed in spreading their war (the signal being bombing Iran). :shrug: We're riding the wave as best we can, just like you.

Oh, and don't let the "hope the doors hits your ass" reactions bother you. We all do the best we can. Those of us who MAY leave IF the neoconsters get their WWIII are the ones who WILL return to rebuild. So, no one here has the patent/trademark/copyright on benevolence or righteousness, contrary to their beliefs.

:hug:

It'll be all right.

[meganmonkey]

57. Sorry to crush your hopes

But here's a 'stay and fight' post ;)

Don't leave us, sweetie, we need strong, smart, beautiful people like you and your family here!!!!!

:hug:

If you make this decision, I will fully respect it, of course. I have heard it said by expats that you shouldn't leave to get away from something, you should leave to create something positive, a lifestyle change that you really want. And it sounds like that is your main motivation.

So if you go, please move somewhere warm and beautiful and I'll come visit :D

[Journeyman]

58. Why in all the threads like this do we never hear anyone say. . .

"Well, I left. I packed my bags and here I am in _________."

No, it's always the threat to leave . . . a promise to vacate if and when . . . concern for the future without action in the present.

And how many threads have I seen today from people who decry Democratic leaders who lack the gumption to do what they believe? . . .

[Horse with no Name]

62. Perhaps it escapes you

That "they" are supposed to be our voice.
That Bush has a "new" uniformed secret service police.
That Halliburton is building huge places to detain lots of people.

So if you can figure out how to get America off it's collective ass and do something, my guess is that we are on the verge of fascism.

[fed-up]

70. see post #42- not I that left, my sis did, I still have a teenager at home

but I do have friends here in town that have purchased 100 acres in Belize and a few have already moved down, with the others moving down slowly over the next 1-10 years.

The sad part is that my 17 year old son talks of moving out of the US when he is done college. What are we leaving for our children???

My neighbors are talking of moving to Costa Rica and another friend is leaving at the end of the month for Canada.

Some of us have been fighting for a long time...

[leftchick]

83. selective reading habits

:eyes:

[joeunderdog]

125. Greg Palast left. Couldn't take it anymore. NT

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

153. I thought he was British?

What's the big sacrifice?

[joeunderdog]

199. He is now. Originally California. Read the Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

If you want to get really depressed. I actually had to stop reading it. Couldn't sleep after I put it down. Sucked. Too much information...and I'll read anything.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

259. I bought that book for my father

He had wanted to read it. Never got around to it myself.

[Greyhound]

135. Could it be that once they've landed where ever, DU is no longer

relevant to their lives?

[MercutioATC]

143. Talk to me in 10 years, 3 months and 4 days....

...that's when I retire and I'm going to Costa Rica.

:)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

237. If you read the whole thread, you will see that some actually HAVE

left the country.

If I didn't have elderly parents, I'd be on a plane to Japan, where I've lived before, have a lot of friends, and know I could earn a living. and where the government, while financially corrupt, isn't MEAN.

I have always been out of step with U.S. mainstream attitudes, and it has only gotten worse in the past few years.

[Jara sang]

64. Argentina

[Clarkie1]

72. This country has more opportunities for you boys than any other.

Certainly a better educational system than Costa Rica, Panama, or Mexico.

Don't short-change them. That's my advice.

[mmonk]

197. Don't know about anyone else's kids but,

one of my sons is autistic. Soon, his population may not have any legal rights here as far as fighting discrimination in any legal binding matter and once the safety net here is removed, he'll have to depend on his wits, abilities, etc. with no legal personage so to speak (unless states rights can protect him, but we live in a red state). He is in college but that isn't a guarantee he can hold a job until old age.

[pitohui]

251. but yr autistic son won't have rights in any other country

many countries won't allow him to become a permanent resident if they realize he has a disability, and many many countries won't allow him or virtually any but the most exceptional american to get a work permit to hold a job

leaving the country may benefit you but sounds like it will do nothing to help your son and could even harm him if it disrupts his routine

some of my asperger's friends are unwilling to even change their routine to the extent of moving to a new city

a new country would be too much for them

only you know what is best for your family, but i'm not seeing from your post how your son would be helped if you emigrated

[FreedomAngel82]

76. I'd say Canada

I don't know where else. Maybe Britian if you like to travel that far away. I think Blair is an okay PM besides Iraq.

[Straight Shooter]

79. Costa Rica residency requirements ....

http://www.strayreality.com/residency.htm

I found a site with what I think is a very good Spanish-learning program. I went through the tutorial and was very impressed, so I'll order it on my next cycle for my credit card.

http://www.learnspanishtoday.com/

Canada gives you extra points if you speak more than one language, but I'm thinking they would prefer the second language be French.


=============

I, too, am exploring the strong possibility of leaving, have been searching for property elsewhere for a few months now. Alito is the tipping point for me.

New Zealand is beautiful but very strict in their rules, according to what people have told me, and I just don't have the necessary kind of income they require. Belize is too hot. I would rather go somewhere cold, and it's nice to see that someone mentioned Switzerland, but that might be a difficult language to learn. I don't want to go to another country and expect everyone to speak my language. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Which, by the way, my mother is Italian and so maybe I'll go to Italy. Who knows.

[leftchick]

88. Alito is the straw that broke the democrats back

and they don't even know it. Hell Most americans have know fucking clue wtf is in store for their children. I do and I want no part of it.

Thank you so much for the links.

:)

[Straight Shooter]

You're welcome.

Best of luck in your search. Priorities, priorities.

:hi:

[pitohui]

112. she has boys

alito don't affect them

[Straight Shooter]

120. Alito will affect everybody.

He will be bush's idealogical doppelganger on the Supreme Court. He will be the Constitution's worst nightmare.

[pitohui]

126. yeah but really

he can't stuff a baby in a boy's body and change his body forever and stick him with a kid to raise forever while the other parent disappears three states away never to be seen again

it just ain't the same

besides abortion is plenty illegal in the three countries she suggested isn't it, definitely it's illegal in mexico! so no use pretending she is fleeing there for freedom because they already don't have the freedoms she is protesting us losing

[Straight Shooter]

142. I don't know where abortion is or is not legal.

As for any freedoms they don't have which we already enjoy, that's a matter of research and a subject I am not qualified to discuss comparisons. I've only just begun my search in earnest. Everything is a tradeoff, but I'm getting tired of having bush and his administration and their filthy tactics on my mind practically the first thing every morning when I wake up. It's like a nightmare that never ends.

Every country has problems, but bush is pushing for dictatorship. I hate what's happening to this country. It gives me the creeps.

[leftchick]

171. "it is like a nightmare that never ends"

indeed. I have not enjoyed life in a very long time and that needs to change.

[pitohui]

256. ok something needs to change agreed

there is something wrong if you can't enjoy life

however geographical solutions to emotional problems don't work, wherever you go, there you are

you need to research the law and the work permit situation in the countries you are considering, the reality is that mexico, etc. are less free than the usa, hey, i like the sun and sand as much as anyone but after some yrs of checking around it seems to me that usa still has the best options on this continent for a lower income person

if you have some exceptional skill, you can go anywhere, of course, otherwise you are faced with having to "buy" a job by making an investment in a business and the investment can be huge in canada or even if it's relatively modest, as $100K or so in panama, it's still a good bit of money to put out just to have work, and a business is never as good as a real job, because in a real job you always earn money, even if it's minimum wage, businesses often can and do lose money

you are gambling your sons' future because you are having trouble loving life, now i'm not saying you should sacrifice your life for your sons, but neither should you sacrifice your sons for yourself

it's a tough one but don't let yourself be panicked into anything

the rights alito "might" take away don't exist in mexico, etc.

you would be going from a "maybe" i'll lose these rights to a definite you don't have those rights

here on the coast i see people all around me who have lost all, yet they still celebrated xmas, they are still planning to celebrate mardi gras and the various traditions, there is a point at which you just have to refuse to allow yourself to be made miserable by shitheads

go slow, take some visits to the countries you're interested in, talk to the ex-pat community, and you have a better chance of making the right decision, many ex-pats are bitter people who spend all day rotting their liver w. alcohol, others have made a real positive change in their life by changing countries, you have to look at the situation and evaluate yourself honestly and make sure you wouldn't fall prey to the negatives like the drinking culture

[pitohui]

and mexico is better? it's an oligarchy!

there are more billionaires in mexico than in usa, there is greater class division

hey, i love mexico and have considered relocating there myself, but it sure isn't abt freedom or abt not wanting to be pushed around

you will be pushed around plenty, in mexico, even having a simple car accident is a criminal offense, we're getting that way in usa but if you don't drink or take medications we're not quite there yet

none of ya'll see the irony in protesting a loss of freedom by fleeing to countries where you will have even less freedom?

she and her sons will likely not even be allowed to hold jobs in costa rica, panama, mexico, or belize

instead they will have to buy a business, and i don't mean cheaply, i believe panama expects you to buy $100,000 business, some countries have bigger investments, and with business comes working 24/7 to manage the business and no guarantee of a profit

yeah, sounds real free to me :shrug:

if she was researching for retirement, i'd have a whole different attitude, but her sons are going to want to get educated and to get jobs and be independent one day, they will coming back to usa w. or w.out her

[Delphinus]

191. Not only Alito, leftchick,

but all this bullshit about Iran - I have this horrible, sickening sense that the boy king is planning something bad (ala 9-11 or another Pearl Harbor) and Iran is going to be the "bad guy". We've too many idjits in this country to stop and see what's going on so everyone will be whipped into a frenzy and go after Iran. More war, nuclear probably.

[suffragette]

252. German, French and Italian are the main languages of Switzerland

Which is dominant varies by where you live. There are differences between Swiss-German and German.

[Quixote1818]

80. Jefferson would be real proud of you for giving up.

I am sure your boys will be proud to

:puke:

[leftchick]

89. nice

:puke: :puke: :puke: back at your tolerance of ameriKan/democratic style fascisim.

[driver8]

106. Oh please...could you be any more dramatic??

She is thinking of her family first -- she wants what is best for her children...wtf is wrong with that?

Save that self righteous crap for someone who really deserves it.

[samhsarah]

114. I have 2 kids of my own...

and I can tell you they come first. it's a terrible thing to criticize a parent for wanting to protect their children. you should be ashamed.

[Elwood P Dowd]

81. Iceland

They have no army, the cops don't carry guns, there is zero pollution, no crime, everyone speaks English,and the winters are actually mild considering the proximity to the Arctic Circle. With global warming, Iceland might be more like South Carolina in a few years.

I once knew a guy that lived over there a couple of years and loved it. His only complaints - only 4 hours of sun from Dec-Feb, the cost of living is very high, too many American cars and SUVs, and lack of sleep on the weekends from the wild party life in Reykjavik,

[helderheid]

91. there food and livestock are all raised organically as well.

[Elwood P Dowd]

110. They even grow bananas

in special greenhouses and have an abundance of fresh and safe seafood.

[pitohui]

113. she can't afford to live in iceland

even the icelanders are moving to mississippi

cripes, what's next, suggesting the lady move her family to italy?

let's just think of the most expensive, impractical place for anyone ever to relocate and suggest that

[Donailin]

84. sweden

or ireland.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

175. Ireland is booming right now.

Dublin is fast becoming one of the most cosmopolitan cities in Europe, and the technology economy is booming! If I had to leave the UK, I'd probably go to Ireland.

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. Belize or Mexico!

I would leave right now if I could! I say go for it!

[Cleita]

87. Not to discourage you, but ask yourself the question:

"Where will I go if there is nowhere else in the world that I want to live in?"

I have researched countries that I thought I might want to live in and it turns out they don't want immigrants, even if you have your own money. They will take political refugees though.

[onenote]

96. I'm curious...why hasn't anyone recommended Venezuela

An awful lot of posters say that Chavez is really great, but out of over 100 posts in response to the OP it doesn't seem that a single person recommended going to live in Venezuela. Hmmm.

onenote

[Straight Shooter]

122. I have considered Venezuela, you bet.

But I love cold weather. I also want to go to a country where Spanish is spoken, so that makes it difficult to choose between Switzerland, Venezuela, Costa Rica, wherever.

I guess I'll end up where I end up. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

238. Chile?

They speak Spanish, have mountains high enough so that professional skiers go there in the Northern Hemisphere summer to keep in shape, and just elected a socialist woman president.

[Straight Shooter]

243. Interesting. I'll look into that, too. I'm a socialist at heart.

Thanks! :hi:

[converted_democrat]

222. For me personally, it's because the US has its sites set on their oil.

I'm looking for a place that is going to be off the US radar.. Some place that the US has little use for. Less probability of conflict, not more. If Venezuela had no oil, or nothing of value to the US, it would be the first place on my list.

[ThatsMyBarack]

99. Belgium

They have great waffles and a great school system (not necessarily in that order)! :9

[pitohui]

115. euros too expensive next EOM

.

[MakeItSo]

100. If all the good people ditch, we're really fucked

I have some kids, too. The whole world depends on the US getting its shit together.

[Clara T]

107. Portugal

or if you can get a work visa, very difficult, New Zealand.

[Adelante]

109. About Mexico

To live in Mexico, a foreigner needs to prove $1200 a month income coming in from outside the country. That's for a single person and it's half that again, I think, for a couple. I'm not sure how kids are factored in, but I imagine you have to show you can support them on your declared monthly income, so that would add onto it. I would not advise you to think you can get a job. Working papers are extremely hard to get for foreigners and if you work without them and are caught or somebody turns you in, you get deported. Additionally, any job you might get has to be one a Mexican doesn't want or can't do. Finally, the pay for almost every job I ever heard of sucks. The cost of living is on the rise. Some things, like computers or televisions, can cost twice as much as in the States. I saw somebody mention living on $500/mo. around Guadalajara, but really that can't be done anymore. Even a thousand dollars a month brings you a very modest lifestyle, and that can be done, depending on where you are, but I'd say unless you go to live in some little town where there isn't much to do and can entertain yourself gardening or something, $500 to live in Mexico is out of the question, and $1000 is restrictive. I'm not talking in the least about luxury living. I'm talking rent, food, utilities, Internet, and a dinner out once in a while. And as I said, you need at least $1,200/mo to get in the door. But it's a great country of incredible beauty, with wonderful people, terrific food, and rich family life. You should, if you can, spend a few months wherever you think you might want to live before making any decisive moves. Lots of people move to Mexico or Belize or someplace else, lock, stock and barrel, thinking it's paradise, realize in time it's not for them, sometimes for strictly cultural reasons, for instance, how dogs are treated or the noise level or the pace of living, and have to come back home and start all over again.

If you've got the money, I'd say try it and see, but be sure you have the wherewithal to return and start again, if you need to.

Good luck whatever you decide. :hi:

[leftchick]

169. Thank you WesDem!

for a very informative post. What if we wanted to own a business?

[Adelante]

255. I don't know much about setting up in business

I have a couple of observations. First, it doesn't relate any to the monthly income you have to prove every year for five years. You can only be a tourist without that type of resident visa for 3-6 months at a time on a tourist visa. To live in Mexico, there's no getting around that one, as far as I know. There are qualifications to meet in business, but I believe if it is a needed business, arrangements can be made. It's a whole separate category of paperwork and you would need expert legal advice. The government doesn't make it easy and there are always situations, even for a legal business. A labor union could smack down on you any time they want to, an employee can sue you out of existence, and the bureaucracy can always beat you when it is in the mood. I'm not saying foreign-owned businesses don't survive, but that Mexico isn't regimented in the way we're used to. One official will decide one thing, for whatever reasons, and a second will decide the opposite, and both will be legal. Chances are more than high if the issue concerns a Mexican national, you will lose, most often anyway.

Your success in business can also be chancy depending on where you are located. If you are in a gringo-influenced area, you will have lots of competition from everybody else trying to do the same thing you are. If you are in a Mexican area, even a big city, you may not have many customers. So it depends a lot on location and competition, assuming you're talking about a service business, but more than anything, you would have to be very careful in setting yourself up correctly for the government. Again, you would need to get expert guidance and dot every i. I've heard of people running online businesses. A friend of mine was a successful decorator/contractor for many years, but at the time, there weren't so many other Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc., trying to do the same thing. Say, for example, you want to run an Internet cafe? There's one on every corner almost everywhere you might go. Beauty shops, pharmacies, laundry, hardware, etc., all fully represented in the local economies, even in small villages. Same for professions, doctors, architects, teachers, builders, accountants, etc. Same for retail. Resturants and B&Bs aimed at the gringo traveler seem to do well, but many of those come and go, too, for whatever reasons. Real estate is booming all over Mexico, but it's the same shark-infested business it is in the States, only *not regulated*, and here again, it directly threatens local realtors and could bring the government down any time. English language bookstores, I mean fully stocked English bookstores and with delivery service all over, are terribly needed and would succeed in the right locations. But the duties on books, even used books, would kill you. To give you an idea, a $50 book order online carries a $20 duty. You even have to pay this on your own books, books you already own, shipped from the US.

So, none of it is simple. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be a challenge and unless you have the bucks to wait out the legalities, which can take a whole lot of time going through the bureaucracy, and can turn on a dime. Having the right Mexican lawyer could make all the difference. Even if you do, though, it could be maddening with all the hold-ups you could come up against and being impatient, well, you may as well piss in the wind. On the other hand, it could all go smooth as silk. It all depends.

Here is a website that can answer many of your questions. It's not a business-oriented site especially, but it has reliable information.

http://rollybrook.com

Someone else mentioned MexConnect. It's worth paying a year's fee, something like $30, just to read this site, search the archives and follow discussions. It will surely tell you everything you need to know if you put enough time into it.

http://www.mexconnect.com

Here is a lawyer's column on the site:

http://www.mexconnected.com/mex_/travel/KLM/klmindex.html

There are dozens of other sites with information online about living in Mexico and many books on the subject. Be very careful. If anybody tells you it's cheap (although it is cheaper) to live in Mexico, chances are it's an old page or a real estate agent. Beware. If anybody tells you there is no crime, no pollution, no litter, and mod cons everywhere, don't believe it. Some days you do without water or electricity, and frequently. Your computers will suffer great and lasting electrical insults, will be costly to replace, and you cannot import computers into Mexico. You may never get your mail or you may get it six months later. You may have to wait a year or two for a post office box, even if you live in an area where there is no mail delivery and your mail is routinely returned to sender, because you have no way of knowing it's arrived. Forget online shopping unless you can pay through the nose for UPS. Do not buy a house or any property without renting for a year first. You may feel entirely different about where you are by then and have a much richer perspective. Do not believe online house prices. If you rent for a while, you can find a much better deal just by familiarizing yourself with the community. In some areas, houses cost more than in most of the US. Do not believe you can sell any house you buy just like that -- some houses sell right away to suckers who don't rent for a while before they buy, but many sit years on the market. If you do decide to buy a house, make very sure the title is absolutely clear or a national can come along and claim your property. It has happened, maybe not all that often, but if you can't afford to lose that money, don't invest in real estate in any foreign country.

I hope I'm not discouraging you, because it's a wonderful place to live, but only if you do it with your eyes open and your mind clear. It's very easy to be seduced by the hype going on, but it's all very individual, either you will love it or you will hate it. In either case, you will need money to come in, money to stay in, and money to get out.

Well, I guess, I've said it all now, at least what I know about it. Don't be afraid to do it, but think it through and be sure you can afford to take the chance, and if you can, do a try-out period first. That's my best advice.

Edit: One last thing and this is important. If you should move to Mexico you will need to hire a maid and a gardener. Don't be shocked and feel it is elitist. It's viewed differently and without these employees, even if they are part-time, you will be resented as depriving somebody of a rightful job. Without these jobs it would be the border for even more of the poor and working class than it is already. These are respected positions and almost an entitlement, not just speaking of gringo residents but for middle class Mexicans, which support the local economy. This is just one of many cultural differences you will have to confront and deal with if you are to live in Mexico.

[spooky3]

117. Australia is wonderful.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

118. Teaching Your Two Boys That Fascists Can Take Over A Great Nation

and the thing to do is flee somewhere and let them, is not the kind of lesson I would even consider teaching to my two young boys.

[Lost-in-FL]

131. Bravo!!!

I agree with you. Leaving would be a poor lesson on patriotism.

[uppityperson]

136. My grandparents immigrated, some from Germany ~1910s

It happens. My parents are fine and so am I although I too think of emmigrating.

[rucky]

163. If my grandparents hadn't fled Poland in the '30's...

I wouldn't exist.

[leftchick]

170. That is the whole point of my original post

One has to know when it is time to go and it is time for me. I have felt ZERO patriotism for this fucked up country for about the last five years. Love of country does not even enter into the equation.

[G_j]

181. the original settlers fled Europe for America didn't they? n/t

[Justice Is Comin]

119. Amsterdam.

Been there in 1979 and wooo. Maybe not right for your profile leftchick :silly: but if it's as good for families as for single men, woooo.

Helderheid, how is the employment situation there if you lived in the Netherlands? Because I have been having thoughts.

[gonzo8]

121. Have you considered Australia?

Good weather, national health care, government funded education, must more progressive political environment, Sydney is a terrific international city.

Furthermore, with a small population, emigration to Australia is not as difficult as in many other countries.

That said, the current Australian government, led by John Howard, is one of Bush's closest allies, and, religious fundamentalism appears to be taking root.

Still, something you may want to consider.

Good luck, and stay left!

http://www.immi.gov.au/

[pitohui]

127. australia won't take 'em

next

[derby378]

123. Sorry, but with the 2006 elections coming up...

We have one last chance to stem the neo-fascist tide before it totally washes America away. Only with a Democratic Congress will your boys have their best chance for success in life.

[Lorien]

124. New Zealand

it's beautiful, green, progressive, and the people are friendly too.

http://www.nukiwi.com/

[pitohui]

128. new zealand don't need immigrants either

you know, this thread is almost funny

i love it when people give advice on matters they haven't even bothered to research for five minutes in a row

[Lorien]

138. Um, they ARE looking for professionals in certain fields

spend five minutes doing your research and you'll discover which ones.

[stop the bleeding]

244. cool my lady and I have thought about moving there - thanks for the

heads up

[in_cog_ni_to]

129. Don't they have a looooong waiting list of people wanting to move there?

They don't take just anyone either. It's like Canada. You have to be employable, bring a needed skill and have a certain amount of $$$$$ to move there. There's no country, except the U.S., that lets people move there just because they want to. You have to have something to offer them to make the move.

[Lorien]

139. Yes, or you need to have some money stashed away

I'm self employed, so it's easier for me (and I can work from anywhere). They do need nurses and other professionals, though. There are a number of website-including the one I posted-that detail what professions are desirable, and when.

[Lorien]

140. Another good site:

http://www.emigratenz.org/

Check out the "top 20 migrant jobs".

[grace0418]

146. Not so easy to go there though.

Lots of people on a Neil Finn forum that I'm on have looked into moving there (for all the reason's you stated PLUS the fact that NZ is the home of Neil Finn) and it's very difficult to emigrate there. That would be my first choice if money were no object and the barriers to moving there were easier.

[fed-up]

130. Ditto what Wesdem said about jobs for Belize also, most people leaving US

are leaving as retirees and don't need to worry about finding work. The laws in Central America vary greatly, but most say that you can't take a job from a native.

As far as crime in Belize goes, for a country with a population of about a quarter million people it is not too bad if you can get over the thought that machetes are often the weapon of choice. I would stay away from Belize City. I am wondering where the people lived that had such a tough time.

No matter what you decide, you do need to visit for at least 2-4 weeks before you really commit to moving anywhere. Most people sell all their stuff to avoid the hassles of moving it and paying duty. You really have to be able to live a somewhat simple lifestyle without all the doodads and gadgets that we are accustomed to here in the US. Then again, that is part of what makes living there so calm and peaceful.

The sad part is that TV is available in most households now and causing the kids to want the carp they see advertised.

[mikeybabe125]

137. I would seriously recommend...

Costa Rica, it would be the BEST place IMO to move. Property real isnt that outrageous considering how beautiful (especially compaired to California)

But, I truely do think you are giving up to early. The con movement is at a downfall and things will get better, over time, if you up and leave now you may regreat it. The least you could do is stay and fight a little longer and see how things shape up then.

[Dunvegan]

144. My husband has maintained his Canadian citizenship...

...so this is the rocker I sit in: Fight...Flight...Fight...Flight....

Having been raised by a German woman who fled Berlin early in the war because she couldn't stand to stand with the Reich...and returned to Berlin's ruins to live immediately after the war...I've been instructed from childhood that no population is inherently evil...but evil leaders can snow even the most first-world of citizenries.

By leaving, she lived to carry on the good fight until her 80's.

She always said "Here are the signs. Watch for the signs. And if you don't leave before a certain point, you're trapped and it will be too late."

Things are getting damned close to "a certain point" here. A first-world country hasn't seen power collected to the Executive like this since...well, since 1940's Germany.

Fight? Flight?

[leftchick]

176. Thank you for your post

No ones knows better than someone who has lived through fascism. I see the signs, they are here.

[tlsmith1963]

192. That's Why I Want to Leave

I don't like to be controlled, & I am afraid that at some point, Bush & the neocons will get so much power that there will be *no way* to stop them. And once that happens, they will come after *us*. So people here need to understand why there are people who want to leave. I don't want to leave because I hate America. I would leave with a very heavy heart. But if people want to completely destroy you because you aren't in their party & hate what they are doing, what other choice do you have? Most of America is so blissfully unaware of what is going on. Unless things change drastically before the midterms & people wake up, I have no other choice but to head to Canada.

Tammy

[helderheid]

226. I am in a similar situation.

My husband is Dutch. The problem is he doesn't see the signs. Doesn't care about politics (and I think I've actually turned him off of it if anything) and so doesn't sense the danger. I've talked to him about going back to Holland and he just doesn't want to deal with the hassle.

[grace0418]

145. I totally support your decision but I'm afraid there's no

escape at this point. BushCo won't stop until the world is destroyed.

Sorry, I'm feeling very pessimistic this evening.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[upi402]

147. I hear ya, here's a tip

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/
I could legally go to Canada and get citizenship, but it's too cold.
The problem is that we Americans have to give up American citizenship, here in the land of the free. We are not allowed to have dual citizenship.

Also income. Many countries protect their workers, unlike us. We are not allowed to work in many countries unless no citizens can do the work, ie: engineering, IT, etc

[Nay]

184. You are allowed to hold Canadian and American citizenships. I do.

That law was changed years ago. In 2003 I applied for my Canadian citizenship (my mother was Canadian), got it, and am now a citizen of both countries. So is my brother. There are lots of us.

[mnhtnbb]

230. That's why you get a job with an international company

then the company will handle all the paperwork, visas, etc. to transfer you overseas.

[LaPera]

149. New Zealand... Without a doubt, if you have the skills they desire...

A beautiful & great progressive country.

Costa Rica is also very nice, I've been to both...But its New Zealand hands down.

Truly!

[Swamp Rat]

150. ¡Costa Rica es pura vida!

¡Me encant muchisimo! I lived and went to school there. I LOVE IT!!! It's THE BEST Central American country! I also recommend Brazil, another place I have lived, and where I plan to return after I finish school and help rebuild New Orleans.

Eu adoro o Brasil! Oba! É o melhor do America Sul. ;)

[incapsulated]

152. I heard Scotland needs people!

Honest and for true. They are experiencing brain-drain and need educated workers. It gets cold enough for you there. :)

I haven't looked into it, so I don't have details, but maybe you should do a google.

Good luck! :hi:

Edit: What the heck, here are some links:

http://www.talentscotland.com

http://www.scotlandistheplace.com

A new book about moving to Scotland:

http://freespace.virgin.net/nicola.taylor/living.htm

[rucky]

164. Ireland, too! n/t

[RebelOne]

193. Scotland is where I would move if I left the US.

I've been there twice and loved it.

[leftchick]

239. Thank you for those links!

I have it on my short list now! :hi:

[Jean Louise Finch]

154. Come to Thailand

Cost of living is cheap, and if you can handle the weather, it's an absolutely great and lovely place as the people are just wonderful and the food is delicious. Bangkok has great schools for the kiddies, and a very international flair, and still the charm and chaos of Southeast Asia. It really is great.

You definitely would need to look into getting work here, but there are lots of opportunities as lots of NGOs and multilaterals have regional headquarters here. Not to mention someone is always looking for English teachers, consultants, etc. If you're serious about it, Thailand is definitely a feasible option. And they love oldies -- you can retire to Thailand over the age of 60 really, really easily.

[adriennui]

210. stay away from southern thailand

iit's become dangerous

[raccoon]

227. Thanks for posting that, Scout.

I was going to ask about Thailand.

[RoyGBiv]

155. You're hoping?

No stay and fight responses? No "coward" responses?

Well, I am so sorry. I have little respect for those who actively seek to give up.

I have a daughter. I want her to grow up in a good world. I am not so naive as to believe leaving this country will deliver that.

OnEdit: I have read the responses to this thread now. I'm fed up too. If this defeatist philosophy is what defines us, we are truly lost and have no one to blame but ourselves. Goodbye.

[BooScout]

156. Ignore all the nasty responses.....

Some people fail to understand you aren't giving up but are fed up.

I left the US late last year......living in the UK and loving it........but my husband is British and we were lucky to be able to settle bcak in here. BTW, most of the people calling you a coward , and to stay and fight are likely doing nothing more in their fight against Bush than posting on this message board and signing on-line petitions.

Good luck to you.

[leftchick]

173. thank you Boo!

I ignore them. I am absolutely serious about this and it is about my boys not me. I was ready to leave three years ago but hung on for another stolen election, more corruption without accountability, no democratic leadership and now Alito, my worst nightmare come true. I wish I had followed through three years ago. :(

[Deja Q]

196. Or some people understand all too well. (supplemental addendum)

BTW: Popsting on message boards is a means to converse to people. And new laws being made are about to nix that capability. Maybe because such conversing has helped spread freedom of thought as well as freedom of speech, along with everything else they could say as means to "make the internet mature by imposing restrictions", et al?

[BooScout]

245. I haven't seen one thing posted anywhere......

....that has stopped George Bush. He's ten times worse now than 5 years ago.........the internet and message boards are not slowing him down one bit....btw...those new laws if they could even try to enforce them, won't affect me.......I'm in the UK:evilgrin:

[BigBearJohn]

158. Try Ireland or New Zealand or Australia. All great places!!!

[threadkillaz]

162. Louisiana

I heard they're seceding.

And dey got da erl.




"1861 - For two months after seceding from the Union and before joining the Confederacy, Louisiana flew the flag of an independent nation."

[Hubert Flottz]

172. West Virginia ain't bad!

At least not as bad as people say!

[Peter Frank]

180. You can teach your boys a great lesson by running away...

(Is that the kind of response you wanted?)

[Binka]

190. What A Snarky Thing To Say

But then you are the same person who made an inappropriate comment on a thread started by a person who just had their cat killed. ON IGNORE NOW! I suggest you do the same LC this person is not worth reading.

[G_j]

182. just as in New Orleans, it is pretty obvious poor folks are screwed

when it comes to 'evacuating'.

[TheAngryIndependent]

183. Canada?

Canada? Canada is no escape.

Canada won't be safe. When the U.S. economy falls apart, Canada will follow.

Besides, Canada has a new Right wing Bush supporting leader. Canada will now be drawn into Bush's madness... "War On Terror", etc.
And it's funny that right under the nose of most folks, The U.S. and Canada recently entered into an agreement to prevent U.S. sildiers from going there to escape Iraq...and any future wars. Those U.S. soldiers that Canada finds, it has agreed to hand them over. They don't want Canada to be a haven for U.S. soldiers like it was during Vietnam.

So that's the trend. There's no escape.
No place on earth is safe from the American Red State wrath. War, repression, death, hunger, New World Order, monitors, State Run Media (w/ the corporation as middle man), a religious State...are all the order of the day.

[Spazito]

229. Your post is misleading at best

The party that won, barely, the election is in a very shaky position and cannot move without the support of the opposition which consists of three parties, all left leaning. The issue of soldiers is still ongoing and has yet to be determined by our Supreme Court which is the final word on issues. The soldiers that have come to Canada to escape bush's illegal occupation of Iraq are still here and have appealed the initial decision to disallow them the right to stay.

Canada will not be going to Iraq, the Conservative government will fall if they even try to suggest such things. Unlike the US system of government, we can throw out our leaders with a simple vote of non-confidence any time.

Canada's economy is doing just fine, we have a surplus and have had one for eight years now. We are looking and getting new markets for our products in countries other than the US. Our economy will be affected by a collapse of the US economy but will do just fine. We export oil, gas and electricity to the US, essential imports to the US regardless of the economic conditions.

[completely_bushed]

185. Check This Out for Ideas

www.escapefromamerica.com

You can sign up for their free monthly newsletter.

My own choice will be northern Thailand, when the time comes.

The Thais love Americans (esp. Bill Clinton) and your money goes a LONG way.

[leftchick]

206. thank you so much for this link!

I had seen this a few years ago and lost it. It is perfect!

Welcme to DU cb!

:toast:

[ScreamingMeemie]

186. It's still our country to fight for leftchick..I know you said not to, but

I am compelled. I am a mother of two children as well, who deserve a future, in a country worth fighting for. We have not yet begun to fight. Remember those words? You don't want to listen, but I want to talk. What if the Founding Fathers had said f*ck it?

You can't leave. And if you do, yes, it's giving up. Please stay with us...FOR your boys. You won't find a better place once we fix it up.

Thanks.

[Freddie Stubbs]

188. No one has mentioned Cuba?

There are a lot of Castro fans on this board. I guess Cuba is good enough for Cubans but would be too much of a step down for most Americans.

[Strelnikov_]

200. One Big Plus. They Are Already A Post-Carbon Society

The end of subsidized oil in the early 90's forced a transition to a more sustainable economic model.

[Freddie Stubbs]

209. What are they doing with all of that oil they are getting from Venezuela?

Unless oil is an ingredient in rum, they must be burning 80,000-90,000 barrels a day.

[Strelnikov_]

214. All What Oil?

I have no doubt they are using oil, but at the level of consumption they are at now, they will be able to substiute biofuels when required.

http://www.harpers.org/TheCubaDiet.html

In so doing they have created what may be the world’s largest working model of a semi-sustainable agriculture, one that doesn’t rely nearly as heavily as the rest of the world does on oil, on chemicals, on shipping vast quantities of food back and forth. They import some of their food from abroad—a certain amount of rice from Vietnam, even some apples and beef and such from the United States. But mostly they grow their own, and with less ecological disruption than in most places.

[Balbus]

217. Or Venezuela?

I thought Cuba and Venezuela were our "Paradises on Earth" yet not a single mention....

[Straight Shooter]

240. See my post #104. I mention that I have considered Venezuela.

My problem is, I like cold weather but on the other hand I love to hear the Spanish language spoken. There is also the consideration of my dog, which, believe it or not, any country I go to must be respectful of animal rights and that will involve research also.

New Zealand, I cannot afford, and also if something goes wrong with the quarantine or import process, they have the option to "destroy the animal." No way will I take that chance. Never. I'm not exactly the luckiest person on earth when it comes to those I hold dear.

First I have to learn Spanish before going anywhere, so I have six months to decide and prepare, plus selling my house (probably not a problem in the market where I live).

Would I live in Cuba? I don't know. Maybe. I'm not a water person, so being on an island is not exactly something I would strive for.

Switzerland is beginning to look pretty good, although I would stick out like a sore thumb because I have dark hair and eyes, LOL.

[JCMach1]

189. Dubai was voted hippest city on the planet...

by FOX news anyway...

IF you are looking for a cool place to live with MEGA economic opportunities-- the UAE is the place. I have not regretted one minute since moving here.

[adriennui]

211. does dubai allow

jews?

hippest city? by fox? i'd take that with a grain of salt...errr, i mean sand.

[Deja Q]

194. India. China. Look at the money trends, do you really need our help here?

If you want your sons to have a future, move them to those countries. Everywhere else is offshoring TO those countries. Even Armani and other posh high-end companies now offshore... In short, it's happening EVERYWHERE in EVERY Western country. Because it's so much cheaper...

If you want to call working in a sweatshop a "future", of course, but that's your prerogative.

In short, your sons have no future at all so long as the global economy imbalance continues to be exploited and raped by the unchristian uncaring loyal-less corporate elite. But I digress. This imbalance and related "brain drain" will ultimately shatter the West, whose economies are disjointedly higher due to cost of living and every other expenditure you can think of.

I doubt you'll like many of those countries you'd mentioned either. They redefine "dilapidated". China and India are "improving", but the ambient temperature and gross overpopulation of those countries will leave you displeased.

No, you cannot fight any of it. So there's no point to.

You're no coward. We all are. And I could care less about being called one; I've been called much worse throughout my life. And if I could live through that without going berserk, I can like through anything. (and, trust me, our childhoods are vastly different... yours being better.)

But for not seeing the obvious... I'll withhold that remark.

[ScreamingMeemie]

195. Hypno....

:applause: You need to make a thread out of this post.

[Deja Q]

198. Done

Thank you.

[Strelnikov_]

203. The Future Of India And China Is Problematic Due To Resource Depletion

These are probably two of the countries I would not consider.

The 'growth' of these countries are the last big blowout of the oil age, and is based on transfer of wealth from the western economies. Once the wealth available for transfer dries up, the 'growth' dries up.

Once the accelerating energy contraction begins in the next few years, all the historic problems will be back, in spades.

If you have not read it, you may want to consider Jared Diamonds 'Collapse'.

[pitohui]

261. india won't give them a work permit

don't know abt china but there have been numerous cases where out-sourced americans have traveled to india to try to get their old job back even at the lower wage, since living expenses also much cheaper in india, they were not able to get work permits

most foreign countries have a heck of a time keeping their own employed

they don't want americans taking their jobs

this is the big issue i see, legal employment is closed, yet illegal employment pays even less than it does here and you live w. constant threat of being deported

that said, a relative of mine worked as an illegal for a big company in london, you'd recognize the name, and was never deported or taken much note of, but she had no kids and of course had to share a rental with like 12 other women, illegals do get work, i just think if someone is already peeved off abt their lifestyle on a legal income in usa that they are not going to be tickled by a lower standard of living on an illegal income in a foreign country, that's more gap year stuff not a plan for raising children

[Cooley Hurd]

201. If I had children, I'd leave, also...

I'm of the "stay and fight" mindset, but I'm also childless. However, if I had children, I would seriously consider leaving.

Canada will soon be off-limits, with Bush-lite Harper in office. I would recommend a nice, peaceful Caribbean country.

Where ever you go, make sure they have broadband internet access, because we'd miss your posts, LC.:hi::yourock:

[ScreamingMeemie]

205. I have children...and it's because of them that I am staying.

The founding fathers, some with children, fought for us. I will stay and fight FOR my children's right to a future. :hi:

[Nimrod2005]

202. Did we say Sweden? The best people on earth possibly

extremely tolarent of everything and everyone.

[Bridget Burke]

212. Many of these suggestions would be great for retirement.

Are you & your husband really finished with your working life? The "retirement" locations might offer limited futures for your children.

Other options require serious money and/or serious skills. How are you fixed? This site appears to have links to real information on other countries' immigration policies:

www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html

Do you have family links elsewhere? What languages do you speak? Which other countries have you visited?

You mention that you've been unhappy for years. Yes, the political situation in the US is quite upsetting. But moving to another country might not wipe out all your sadness. Analyze yourself. Analyze your family. And try to make any move positive--so you will benefit your new country.

DEFINITELY visit your chosen country before you burn any bridges.

[Nikki Stone 1]

213. New Zealand

Their biggest fear is becoming like us.

[lonestarnot]

215. Amsterdam

[cigsandcoffee]

216. Venezuela or Cuba

These countries are the future of Central and South America, I believe. There's going to be a lot of opportunity there.

[mnhtnbb]

228. We have bought property in Panama

in Bocas del Toro region at Red Frog Beach Club. www.redfrogbeachclub.com

However, we are near retirement age (I'm 55 and hubbie is 63)

We considered Canada, New Zealand, Belize, Ireland, Bahamas, Turks & Caicos, Bonaire and narrowed down to Belize. Went to Belize, twice, and ended up in Panama after finding Red Frog Beach Club on the internet.

www.redfrogbeachclub.com

Cannot wait for our place to be completed (probably spring 2007). We still have a son in high school --10th grade--and are hoping to get him graduated before we sell this house, rent an apartment here in Chapel Hill, NC
(so he'll be eligible for in-state tuition) and then split our time between Red Frog and here.

Panama City is the financial center of Central America and a first world city. Belize is a poor country and cannot compare either in safety or amenities with Panama.

I suggest you get a subscription to International Living,

http://www.internationalliving.com/ as well as peruse

http://www.escapeartist.com/ Escape Artists.

Also, think about looking at jobs with international companies, because that is the easiest way to make a move abroad by transferring. Our oldest boy just got a job with an international software firm headquartered in Cary, NC, but they have offices all over the world so if he decides he wants to get out (he's gay), he might have a better chance of doing it.

Best of luck to you.

[donheld]

233. I'd be gone in a minute if

I could find a place open to gays and where I could get a earn a living.

[jschurchin]

236. Australia

It is a beautiful place, english is the native language, comparable living expense's, overall a wonderful place to raise your children.

241. I would say Canada if you can get in

from looking at their websites, they will accept people who have job skills in an area where they need workers. I would move their if I had the resources.

I question moving to South America. The poverty in South America is worse than here from what I can tell. Little children run around the city squares begging, dressed in ragged clothing, no parents around. And with poverty, there is always robbery going along with it. I guess if you have enough money to buy yourself security, then it would be OK. But then you are in the same position as rich people in United States, that lock themselves away from the poor people here. IMO.

[carrowsboy]

246. What are my chances??? re: Quebec/Ontario

I'm 29, working on my second Master's degree in Telecommunications/Networking, earned my MBA a lil over a year ago, undergard in Art, speak conversational French, I have practically no savings, 5+ years with my current company, my only debt is student loans and car payment.

Would Canada take me? I'm currently looking for a better paying job and figure I might as well take my chances up north. I visited twice last year & LOVED it there.

[AbbyR]

247. I wish I did, as I'd love to go...

but as a news writer and editor with an expired teaching certificate, I'm not only out of luck in the U.S., I'm out of luck as to getting out - who wants an aging hippie who has worked in service/social service jobs all of her life? That means no big savings and no great skills. So I'm SOL as far as Canada and most other countries are concerned. I would really love to move to the Canadian Rockies, but you don't always get what you want.

I've decided that, since my kids are grown, I can take a page out of the history books, and when it all really goes to hell, I'll join the underground and fight as long as I can. I have no choice, no way out - that's probably what happened to a lot of Germans. So I will stay and fight to get back, eventually, the country I loved. Once.

[libnnc]

248. Of course no one wants you to leave

and I know we really need your family in our own little corner of the world, but you're a mom and you must make your decisions based on what's best for your kids. Anyone who harshly criticizes you for doing what's natural is, in my opinion, being a jerk. I've met you and your fantastic kids--the folks calling you a "coward", a "quitter", obviously have not met you and your family.

DUers, Leftchick is no coward. She's a mom who wants the best for her family. For what it's worth my partner and I applied for our passports last week. She's renewed her's and I've never had one as an adult. Something we've been meaning to do for years but just never got around to it...kinda like fixing a leaky faucet. Seems to hold more meaning these days though.

My fellow DUers, if the possibility of leaving isn't at least in the back of your minds, you're not being completely honest with yourself about our current times.

[adigal]

253. I don't think anyone wants us

Maybe Italy, or any country you have family??

[ourbluenation]

257. Will Pitt gave me a rash of shit for saying this last Saturday. Honestly

I am a citizen of the world and then, I am an American. I love and care for all the same, regardless if you live next door to me or live on the other side of the planet. Sorry - but there it is.

Look - at some point these people in power will reveal themselves to the minions and masses and the tide will turn again towards justice and everything that's great with America. IN the meantime - Me and my family gotta live without all this tension. Maybe it means leaving.

[Moderator]

262. Locking.

A lot of the posts in this thread are inflammatory and it seems to have run its course.