The problem with the fascist/nazi comparison is how hysterical it sounds

[Bucky]

It suggests a lack of awareness on the part of those who criticize Bush just how bad, how politically constricted, life was under Hitler and Mussolini. There are some parallels, but you could draw those same parallels with any corrupt regime that lies to its people, distorts the historical record, and featherbeds its friends. If that's the standard for being a nazi, then there's almost no standard at all.

In terms of political substance, Bush is certainly not a fascist. Fascists were corporatists--which doesn't mean they favored giving power to large corporations, by the way. The well-circulated Mussolini quote about fascism being "corporate" can't be found in Mussolini's writings and misrepresents what corporatism is.

Corporatism is the belief that certain groups in society have the right and obligation to exercise control over the society in order to maintain social and national cohesion. Bush stole an election, something a true fascist or corporatist would never feel the need to do. This is not to suggest he has no latent thuggish tendencies. But it's the thuggery of an oligarch, of a plutocrat, not of a true fascist. Fascist power is rooted in the cultural authority of the working class, which fascism attempts to control through race-baiting exaltation of the nation's past.

Bush subverts the law; a fascist overrides it. Bush brays about his mandates and his political capital; a fascist takes it without excuses. Fascists are generally racist; Bush prides himself on browning up the Republican Party (his real agenda attacks the working class without regard to race--even though in our society that means a disproportional assault on minorities). Fascists try to coopt labor movements and keep people quiet by keeping them working; Bush attacks the labor movement and exports jobs to benefit millionaires. Fascists romanticize their nation's heritage; Bush wants you to forget the past. Fascists seek to nationalize critical industries while Bushkies seek to privatize critical governmental functions and kowtow to large business interests. Bush is an instinctive deregulator while fascists try to micromanage major sectors of the economy. In a war against a Muslim movement, fascists would attack Islam itself as a hateworthy collective threat to their homeland, while Bush has been fastideous about calling Islam a religion of peace and disassociating from the hate speech coming from some on the Right.

I'm not saying there aren't similarities. There are. They both have a tendency to twist words, hide truth, rally the people through unnecessary wars, and engage in police state tactics against ordinary citizens. They both function thru paranoia and politicize everything and demonize all dissent as disloyalty. Both are bullies and corrupt to the core. But mostly this is because they share a fetish for power. Their egos drive them to reckless misrule and ever shrinking legitimacy. But I'd call Bush more of a republican monarchist--a believer in the supremacy of executive power, an oligarch. He's still dangerous, of course, but if you're gonna be technical, Bush is far being a true fascist.

But the bottom line about fascism is this. As DUer Cali pointed out when I posted these ideas in a different thread, the fascism and naziism charge "stops up peoples' ears. They simply stop listening, when more reasoned criticism might get through." It's not just that it's intellectually wrong and historically naive... it's politically ineffective.

[nemo137]

1. But, there are 14 points that prove that they are fascist!

Good job being a voice of reason here. It's sorely needed some days.

[Bad Santa]

21. I prefer 'Franco-model Fascist'

The parallels between neo-cons and Franco's Spain are very strong. Particularly the religious connections.

The parallels between Mussolini and the neo-cons isn't as strong. Mussolini wasn't as tightly linked to religious themes and personalities.

To be honest, Hitler's Germany wasn't fascism. Fascism implies a lot of power sharing between government and corporate entities. Hitler didn't share power with anyone for very long. Nazism was quickly a strange Hitler personality cult based government. Nazism really should be shoved off into it's own seperate category.

[rman]

27. "Hitler didn't share power with anyone for very long" - wrong

corporations were practically running the Nazi government.

Both Hitler and Mussolini came to power thanks to strong (financial and 'diplomatic') support from large corporations and banks, including American corporations and banks. They're not going to support a despot and then sit back and just let the despot run the show.

see "Banking with Hitler" (BBC)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YauM5dHLn1s

As i've said before, regardless of the specifics, all of dictatorship, fascism, nazism, plutocracy, totalitarianism etc, have one thing in common: they are anti-democratic; all of it is despotism. They will use any form of oppression, deception, propaganda, censorship, lying, subversion etc to get what they want.

[StraightDope]

2. Excellent Analysis!!!

K & R, which I usually DON'T do, but in this case, I feel that your info needs exposure.

[Ian David]

3. How about Proto-fascists, like in "Conservatives Without Conscience"? n/t

[Bluebear]

4. 'Bush subverts the law; a fascist overrides it.'

I would argue that Bush has overridden the law more than once. But it's OK, 98% of America doesn't even know what the term "fascist" means.

[rman]

26. right, like there's a big practical difference between the two

It's like the difference between "killing" and "leaving to die".

[UncleSepp]

5. Thank you, thank you, thank you...

"Fascism" needs to retain its meaning, as do "totalitarianism", "police state", "genocide", and "Nazi". Using these words wrongly saps them of their power, and leaves us with no words to use to describe the concepts once identified by these labels.

[razors edge]

6. Just another tin horn dictator.

the M$M and religious whack jobs resemble the wide eyed supporters of hitler but the real insiders care only for themselves, not any kind of thousand year reich.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Clearly not a dictator.

He's an elected president who'll be leaving office in two years time, and is largely subject to the law. Not in any, way shape or form a dictator.

And the modern American right is very, very different indeed to the 1930s German Nazis.

There are more than enough valid and accurate criticisms of Bush and the American right without resorting to silly ones. This is precisely what the OP was talking about.

[razors edge]

8. He is a selected president.

Or maybe you weren't paying attention. He may leave in two years. I compared his rule to that of a cheap dictator, not the Nazis, mainly because Hitler at least saw combat in uniform.

There are more criticisms of * than I care to list. But I am by no means naive to the negative possibilities of power hungry greed in it's purest form.

[Richard Steele]

17. He LOST that election in '00, so that's your first mistake.

And his "Unitary President Signing Statements" blow
your "largely subject to law" statement right out
of the water.

[Swamp Rat]

19. Way'at dicksteele!

:hi:

Like the so-called "Good Germans," folks just refuse to see the truth... It's painful to witness such overt denial. Maybe Bushler will leave office, maybe he won't. This is a Brave New World where control is managed though a more complex system of power sharing that props up puppet dictators.

I remember walking around the perimeter of Dachau and wondering how the hell Germans could walk to work everyday past the gallows and say to themselves "... this is not happening. Anyway, those people need to work, and the ones who are hanged everyday were probably criminals who deserved it."

"Unitary President Signing Statements" - Wtf is this, if not dictatorial rule?

[Richard Steele]

20. High praise indeed, coming from the author of the brilliant post #11.

Thanks! :hi:

[stepnw1f]

9. Sorry... they are fascist

I call em as I see them.

[Karenina]

10. Never again means NEVER AGAIN

Dissing folks who see it happening again will be our collective demise.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. That will be true if fascism ever *does* start to emerge in America

At present, making it clear that most of us don't agree with the people crying wolf will help make it harder for the Republicans to persuade people to ignore us.

[Karenina]

36. Maybe you'll take notice

once you've been consumed up to your thighs. :rofl:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. If I ever am, I'm sure I will.

Incidentally, I haven't bothered to justify my views in detail on this page; if you're interested, I did so at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2264041

[Karenina]

38. Ignorance is bliss...

:eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

11. I disagree. Bushler is certainly a fascist and a corporatist. 100%.

The similarities are uncanny. Bushler even dresses like Hitler!

See?!? :D



Now to address your commentary:

"The problem with the fascist/nazi comparison is how hysterical it sounds. It suggests a lack of awareness on the part of those who criticize Bush just how bad, how politically constricted, life was under Hitler and Mussolini." - The implication here is that those of us, like myself, are naïve, and even hysterical. On the contrary. Some of us are highly educated, well-read, and understand complex subjects such as the historical underpinnings of global political economies.

"There are some parallels, but you could draw those same parallels with any corrupt regime that lies to its people, distorts the historical record, and featherbeds its friends. If that's the standard for being a nazi, then there's almost no standard at all." - Straw Man. There are more than just some parallels; there are facts that directly tie the Bushler family with Hitler's Nazi regime. Look up Prescott Bush, Brown Bros. Harriman, Union Banking Corporation, IG Farben, Thyssen for starters. Aw heck! Here's one for you: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

The statement, "Bush stole an election, something a true fascist or corporatist would never feel the need to do," is a Straw Man. There can be many varieties/shades of fascism, and each manifestation of the phenomena will produce different results. I assert there is no such thing as "true fascism," as truth itself is enigmatic. His policies have produced a quasi-private system of government akin to neo-corporatism.

"Bush subverts the law; a fascist overrides it." - Like this, many of the following statements in the same paragraph are assertions that blur semantic meanings in order to create a polarizing construct, that may be entirely false.

"Fascists are generally racist; Bush prides himself on browning up the Republican Party" - This polarity has so many problems I do not know where to begin, but I can simply disagree based on my own visceral experience and state that Bushler IS a racist. I know this for a fact because I personally experienced the effect of his racist policies here in New Orleans. This, though, pales by comparison to his bigotry toward lower economic classes which will adversely affect the trajectory of this nation. He may not show his racial bigotry in an overt fashion, and has surrounded himself with people of color for photo ops, but his policies manipulate ethnic groups in various subtle ways. For example, if most everyone in New Orleans was white and voted republican, FEMA would have been here the very next day after the hurricane with food, water, transportation, and housing, like he did for Florida.

"Bush is far being a true fascist." - He may not be a "Hitler fascist" or a "Mussolini fascist," but he is certainly a fascist.

"Fascists try to coopt labor movements and keep people quiet by keeping them working; Bush attacks the labor movement and exports jobs to benefit millionaires." - Unlike Hitler, Bushler started with a tremendous budget surplus and a large middle class. Once this nation is reduced to the level of poverty we experienced during the Great Depression, he may nationalise the labor force in a similar fashion. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades.

"Fascists romanticize their nation's heritage; Bush wants you to forget the past." - Not true. We are bombarded with the fiction of traditional family values on a daily basis, and Bushler brings up the past in numerous speeches. Hitler also tried to get the Germans to forget their recent past, the Weimar Republic, by hearkening back to a fictional Teutonic heritage.

"Fascists seek to nationalize critical industries while Bushkies seek to privatize critical governmental functions and kowtow to large business interests. Bush is an instinctive deregulator while fascists try to micromanage major sectors of the economy." - Private industry also micromanages major sectors of the economy by subcontracting to subsidiaries and like-minded associates, and in other instances large corporations micromanage smaller institutions into mediocrity on purpose (Ex. to exploit and control universities and academies).

"In a war against a Muslim movement, fascists would attack Islam itself as a hateworthy collective threat to their homeland, while Bush has been fastideous about calling Islam a religion of peace and disassociating from the hate speech coming from some on the Right." - Yes, Bushler has said nice things about Islam, while bombing the crap out of them, thus killing over 1/2 million in the recent invasion of Iraq alone. AND, there is so much depleted uranium in the region from the use of "dirty bombs" that the once thriving Islamic culture will never recover in certain areas. Call it "ethnocide," if you will. Hitler never achieved this feat.

You make numerous good points about "twisting words, hiding the truth, rallying the people through unnecessary wars, engaging in police state tactics against ordinary citizens, functioning thru paranoia, politicizing everything, and demonizing all dissent as disloyalty." How uncanny the resemblance between Hitler and Bushler!

"It's not just that it's intellectually wrong and historically naive... it's politically ineffective." - This is simply not true. That statement comes across as condescending and elitist, as if the speaker knows all and can magically read the pulse of the nation.

MY bottom line is this: for every DUer that claims that the "fascism and naziism charge stops up peoples ears," I have, to the contrary, witnessed more people perking up their ears.

Bushler is certainly, without a shred of doubt, a fascist.

[Blackthorn]

12. Excellent post.

[Swamp Rat]

13. Schönen Dank

Know the past in order to understand the present and predict the possible future(s).

[Bad Penny]

14. good stuff

couldn't have said it better myself

[Swamp Rat]

16. Ooo! Great pic!

I'm stealing it! :D

[Bad Penny]

24. here's another one I did

[Swamp Rat]

29. Those are great!

Where did you find the German propaganda posters? I'd like to browse through them.

:hi:

[Bad Penny]

42. this is probably it.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

[Swamp Rat]

43. This thread has inspired me to make more pix that juxtapose Nazi

propaganda with American political figures. :D

Thanks fo' da link. :hi:

[Bad Penny]

45. my pleasure, Swampster

here's a couple more I did a couple years back that I dug up

[Swamp Rat]

48. Here's my latest:

:D

[AntiFascist]

15. Great post Swamp Rat....

there are many parallels, even with Hitler, that the op ignores. Multi-national industrial interests supported Hitler, and through propaganda and intimidation he was elected to office. International oil interests are the foundation of Bush's power, the media certainly is known for spreading pro-Bush propaganda, and the Bush famiglia is well known for its intimidation tactics.

Initially, Hitler had the support of the Catholic church to usher in his 1,000 year Reich. Ultimately, it became apparent that Hitler was only interested in his own ideology (Mein Kempf) and that he drew his power from darker, more sinister sources. Notice any parallels there, now that the Religious Right is getting snubbed and the culture of corruption is being exposed?

After Hitler was elected he then garnered more power and through further propaganda and intimidation made himself der Fuhrer. We are on the precipace of Bush becomming the unitary executive that he would like to become. By doing away with Habeas Corpus he could conceivably put away his political enemies in the same way that the SS dealt with its opponents.

The only thing preventing this from becomming a similar fascist regime is Bushco's low popularity and, dare I say, the power of a free internet to fight the propaganda.

On edit: I should have mentioned the obvious - fascism is what happens at the extreme right end of the political spectrum. Ever hear of "radical conservatives"? Technically this is an oxymoron, but what it means is revolutionary progress toward the right.

[Swamp Rat]

18. True, Bushler never had Hitler's charisma.

9/11 and cowboy boots are no substitute for Bushler's overall lack of charisma. Plus, Bushler is incapable of speaking extemporaneously on complex topics concerning philosophical and geopolitical matters, unlike Clinton, Carter, Kennedy, Roosevelt, et al. If you want to talk baseball, bicycles and beer, well, then he's probably up to the task.



I'm glad you mentioned the parallel between Bushler and Hitler's co-opting religion. Without the Catholics in the South, Hitler would not have had much of a Wehrmacht, and without the Southern evangelicals, Bushler would not be in power. They both used religious institutions to control the most malleable in their respective countries.



"... the power of a free internet to fight the propaganda." - Bushler&Co. are actively working on doing away with net neutrality, while at the same time data-mining EVERYTHING we do and say. Where is John Poindexter these days? :hide:

[marions ghost]

34. Viva l'internets

Did you EVER think you'd see THIS America:

The Unitary Executive aided by a Rubberstamp Congress & Lapdog Media & Office of Homeland Security (shades of der Vaterland) & Rightwing Judiciary & Wars for Glorification and/or Profit & Illegal Wiretapping & Stolen Elections & Gitmo Gulags & Jesus Youth ...

Somebody's gotta draw the obvious parallels between whatever you want to call the sickness that overcame Nazi Germany and the sickness that is undermining America.

Of course our form of rightwing revolution has a uniquely American flavor, but Bushlerism is no less scary than Hitlerism. We live in a land where 'Praise Jesus' implies the lockstep political allegiance of 'Sieg Heil' --and a Bush-buddy backslap in the right corporate places will get you far. (The backslap and the secret handshake among turning Aspens will get you even further). Less dramatic, more coded salutes for these times.

The Hindenburg has long ago left the hangar. People were making these comparisons 3-4 years ago.

The problem is NOT our being perceived as "hysterical." (Worrying about that only makes people silent). The problem is in getting through the thick fog of delusion and denial that makes Americans want to believe we are superior to, and substantially different from, Nazi Germany. Although Bushco hasn't killed millions outright, there are many ways to kill people. New scapegoats have replaced the Jews. Loss of basic freedoms is even a worse occurrance here it could be argued, because we labor under the idea that we are a modern democracy, intolerant of kings and fuhrers. Such a disconnect between what IS and what we think we are. Or what we used to be. Or what we were taught in school. After all, aren't we the noble country who came to the rescue and helped defeat Hitler? But now, we cling to ideals and labels that are ringing ever more hollow. This conflict paralyzes people, rendering them torpid at least for the time it has taken for the current band of criminal masterminds to consolidate power.

[Karenina]

23. TOR!!!

Brilliant, Swampers!!! :loveya::loveya::loveya:

The denial is stunning. From my perspective, those who shut down at examining the parallels critically are the hysterics. The compulsion to enshire the Holocaust as the horror of all horrors BLINDS them to the insidious signs that the conditions under which it took place are indeed HAPPENING AGAIN. When my octogenarian German neighbors, who were staunchly pro-American for decades, begin to cringe and compare, IT'S TIME TO SIT UP AND NOTICE.

The BIGGEST DISCONNECT I see consistently is glossing over the FACT that A DIRECT UNBROKEN LINE can be drawn between the entity infecting the American body politic and the Nazis.

"There are more than just some parallels; there are facts that directly tie the Bushler family with Hitler's Nazi regime. Look up Prescott Bush, Brown Bros. Harriman, Union Banking Corporation, IG Farben, Thyssen for starters."

What you point out here really IS JUST FOR STARTERS!!! How 'bout that Allen Dulles, eh? The OP would do well to read Octafish's KNOW YOUR BFEE on the importation of card-carrying Nazis directly to high positions in the U.S. government after the war. With the advances in technology, these slimebuckets, left unchecked, will make the Third Reich look like a Boy Scout outing.

[Swamp Rat]

28. Liebling!

Wie gehts? :hug:

Mein Gott im Himmel, ich vergaß diesen Arschloch Affenschwanz Herrn Allen Dulles zu erwähnen! :eyes:

[Frank Cannon]

31. Awesome post. Thanks for that.

If it's small, green, wet, hops, and makes a "ribbet" sound, it's a frog. Bush is a fascist and comes from a family of Nazi supporters. That's just the way it is.

[Pachamama]

22. I'm sure there were many Germans in my Grandparents neighborhood & work

who thought they were "hysterical" or crazy for suggesting that Hitler and the Nazi's were dangerous too at one point. My grandparents from the early 30's were warning friends who thought they were paranoid. After KristallNacht, they escaped Germany with the clothes on their backs.

I think a lot of those neighbors who thought they were "hysterical" for their warnings ended up dying in Nazi Germany. :eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. This is silly

Yes, there were probably some people predicting the rise of fascist in the 1930s in Germany, and they were probably called hysterical and silly.

On the other hand, there have been people calling the government fascism in pretty much every other era and place, and they were called hysterical and silly.

The reason predicting the rise of fascism in modern day America is hysterical and silly is not because doing so always is - 1930s Germany was one time when it wasn't -it's because America clearly isn't currently becoming fascist, any more than it's becoming communist (and yes, there are plenty people on the right talking in tones very much like the ones I see attacking the OP about how America is in danger of becoming a socialist tyranny).

[rman]

35. You're saying no-one can actually see it coming if fascism is on the rise?

Rather all there is, is people saying all the time that fascism is on the rise - so that they are correct just like a broken clock is telling the correct time twice a day?
So no-one is actually capable of reading the signs when fascism is on the rise, or perhaps there are no signs?

The big difference between fascism, soviet-style "communism", and US-style "capitalism" is that in all cases the state and corporations are running the show to their own advantage (and at the detriment of The People).

"The reason predicting the rise of fascism in modern day America is hysterical and silly is not because doing so always is..."

And then you fail to mention why it is that predicting the rise of fascism in modern day America is "hysterical and silly".
All that you and so many naysayers do is calling people who are warning about rising fascism "hysterical and silly" (which is a logical fallacy; an ad-hominem argument) - and at best point out some differences in the methods, ie subverting the law versus overriding the law, which is kindof like saying Bush is not Hitler because Bush doesn't have a mustash.

[UncleSepp]

39. It's like sounding the fire alarm when a tornado is coming

They are both dangerous, but what you do to protect yourself from them is not the same.

Moreover, it isn't whether the claim is hysterical that is important. It is whether the claim *sounds* hysterical. The very people who need to be woken up and won over the most are the ones who currently believe that Bush and cronies are voices of reason and sanity, and that their opponents are loonies. Appeals to fear will only confirm their existing opinions, and will have the opposite effect of the one intended. These people have been frightened enough. Hope, pride, and inspiration will win in this scenario.

To bring it back to fascism, hope, pride, and inspiration are the usual tools used by both fascism and national socialism. If we really were fighting fascists or Nazis, we would have to use something else. Our opponents are using fear and only fear, leaving all the rest of these perfectly good political tools lying around on the floor for us to strike them with. That's the real point.

[AntiFascist]

41. As a mentat might say, "fear is the mind killer"....

the problem I see is that the revolutionary Republicans are turning up the heat slowly, and if it ever does reach a boil, it might be too late. It's not so much a tornado as it is creeping, friendly in appearance, and shrouded in faux patriotism, intended to slowly acclimate Americans into a world where 9/11 radically changed everything. Do you recall the scene in the film Slaughterhouse 5 where an American (anti-communist) military leader shows up at the Nazi prison camp dressed in a uniform with the stars, stripes and Nazi symbol? Most were able to overcome their fear enough to recognize a true traitor.

[rman]

25. "If that's the standard for being a nazi..." then there are a lot of nazis

aka despots, dictators - of which there are a lot indeed. Regardless of the specifics, they all have one thing in common: they are anti-democratic.

"Corporatism is the belief that certain groups in society have the right and obligation to exercise control over the society in order to maintain social and national cohesion."

- where certain groups = the corporate establishment, aka big capital - So you're saying Bush and the gang do not belong to the corporate establishment? i don't think you can convince many people of that.

- and where "social and national cohesion" = no rebellion against those certain groups in society who think they the right and obligation to exercise control over the society.

"stole an election, something a true fascist or corporatist would never feel the need to do"
why not? by your own admission they are crooks, why would they not do what they can in order to get or maintain control?

[mmonk]

32. Plenty of parallels to be scared, particularly in the neocon

rise to power, the press, and the people's indifference to rumor of bad things. And this statement "Bush subverts the law; a fascist overrides it.", I want to ask what you think about what bush is going to sign into law today, packing the courts with people who might believe in the unconstitutional idea of "unitary executive", his crimes against peace (established at Nuremberg), etc.

[Hippo_Tron]

40. Agreed, also Hitler killed people, Bush just sits there while people die

This is, I think, another key difference between Bush and Hitler. Hitler used genocide as a means of achieving his goals. Bush has no desire to do such a thing. However, he's perfectly willing to sit on his ass and do nothing while people are dying if it's not in his personal intereset to help them. This is very much a part of the Bush family tradition, as Prescott Bush had business dealings with the Nazis. I doubt that Grand-daddy Prescott Bush really liked the idea of killing Jews, but he had no interest in stopping it if it were to inhibit his profits.

[Swamp Rat]

44. I see Prescott in a different light.

I picture him salivating at the thought of exterminating Jews, shooting and gassing them, and even taking part by flaying the skin from a captured Jewish children. Then later during court proceeding pointing his finger at others.

Dubya used to blow up frog with M-80s. I think this behaviour is part of a greater family tradition that celebrates and even nourishes great contempt for life itself.

[Karenina]

46. *Babs, her "beautiful mind" and all that rot...

:puke:

[lonestarnot]

47. Bushitler doesn't give a crap about the parallels. He's a serial killer.