The Democratic Senators are playing DUers like fiddles

[Walt Starr]

I haven't posted in GD since this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=118405

But today, I am posting one more time. Why, you might ask? Simple, Duers have been played like fiddles by the Democratic Senators.

Yeah, you're irate about Alito. Yeah, you've been calling, faxing, emailing, and snail mailing them about how horrible Alito is going to be. Yet they still won't filibuster because of the fear of being nuked.

So why are they more afraid of a GOP nuke option than their own supporters?

They have more to fear out of the Republicans than you, that's why. Push comes to shove, they still know they've got your vote all sewn up.

There are no consequences for them refusing to filibuster, ergo, they can afford to be more afraid of the Republicans than of you. With you, there is no accountability. They'll still get your vote next fall.

And that, my friends, is how you've been played like a fiddle.

I know not what course others might take but as for me, let me the hell out of this junkyard band!

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trogdor]

10. Here ya go.

http://greenparty.org/

If I have to cast conscience votes, this is the party that will get them. For now, I remain a Democrat.

[cantstandbush]

33. Please give me a third party candidate that I can vote for!!! That's all

I want. And there are many, many others out here who feel the same way. I wouldn't even mind if the third party were formed from some moderate Rethugs and some current Dems....but I want mostly new, untained blood.

[madfloridian]

41. You are advocating leaving the party?

"So...why not start here, with this group. We're leaving the Democratic party, we just need to organize and find somewhere to go. So let's get started!"

I disagree.

[doublethink]

83. Damn It got taken out before .....

I could post my Elmore Fudd pic..... my new way of hunting trolls. ;) Be vewey vewey quiet, we're hunting wabbit ..... :)

[ewagner]

2. Yes, BUT!

True.

Up until now, they know that Democrats don't have anywhere else to go....they can vote with the Repubs with impunity because we don't have any other choice but to vote for a Repub.

EXCEPT....

ASK LIEBERMAN about that .... he's pissed off so many democrats that he now has a primary opponent...a CREDIBLE primary opponent.

Maybe the Senate Democrats should ask Lieberman how it feels to have a primary opponent...and they should be reminded that it can happen to them too!

[Walt Starr]

4. Too late already for most up for re-election

for most Democratic Senators up for re-election this year, if there's not a candidate filed against them in the primary, it's too late.

[Horse with no Name]

3. I've missed you Walt

:hug:
Glad to see you back and wish you would stay.

[Coexist]

5. Glad to see you Walt - please don't leave

I tried going to another message board, but it is way slower than this one and I feel like I am talking to myself.

There are independents here, too.

I know people say not voting D is the same as helping the Rs, but I am now of the mind, that being an independent is smarter, because that is who all these politicians try to woo. I am sick inside today. Just sick.

Just because a few posters got stupid doesn't mean there aren't others who feel the way you do, too. We need to stick together.

[JCMach1]

6. I agree with that assessment

:(

[Ioo]

7. I agree...

You are right, you are dead right. No matter how much they screw us, we will vote for them.

We are being played. I called Byrd and Rockerfellow twice, and nothing...

[Angry Girl]

8. it's taxation without representation

[buff2]

24. Canada just turned repuke

No phucking where to go.

[Angry Girl]

66. Conservative perhaps but at least they're not fascists

But I know what you mean. Stop the planet, I want to get off!

[dogfacedboy]

87. Conservative in Canada is Centrist in US n/t

[buzzard]

98. While I am not happy with the election results here I don't think we

have turned "repuke" we will have a strong opposition with the NDP gaining and the option of a non confidence vote.

[Roho]

101. the result

was the best possible for progressives imo.

The liberals need to revitalize. Harper has been neutered.

[tlsmith1963]

112. Canada Hasn't Gone Conservative

They only voted Martin out to send him a message that they didn't like his corruption. They didn't do it because they suddenly like Bush. Harper doesn't have a majority government, anyway. Most of Parliament is represented by other political parties. The American media is reporting this story completely wrong, but then what else is new?

Tammy

[Mr.Green93]

9. Where is that poster

that was saying we were not good poker players for calling for a filibuster ten days ago? The poster said our Senators were not going to show their hands until it was time. Well the chips are on the table.

[Coexist]

11. this reminds me of waiting anxiously for Kerry's post-election

legal strategy to make itself known. How sad I was when it was, "I lost". I waited for MONTHS for that. I am NOT Kerry-bashing - I truly DID believe that the impossible would happen.

[jonnyblitz]

20. oh, she is probably in the lounge posting dinosaur band

appreciation threads. :P

[400Years]

48. hiding under a rock

[fairandunbalanced]

12. 2 party 1sided system

Yeah its the best of a two party one sided system. To bad third partys have little to no chance against the corporate ownership of the government and the media. Still I would rather be on the inside with a chance to help then on the outside with no way of getting in.

[LeftCoast]

22. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[jefferson_dem]

91. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Burning Water]

13. So what else is new?

I wish they would filibuster. They'll get beaten. There will be a backlash that will cost us in the 2006 election. There would be short-term pain among the Democrats.

But, it wouldn't make the Supreme Court any worse than it's going to be already when Alito is confirmed, despite all that the Dems can do. Which they won't, anyway.

But, long-term, it could be a big assist to the Dems, especially in 2008, as people see the mistreatment of American citizens of Islamic origin, possibly imprisoned just for being suspected of terrorism. The spying on innocent citizens, the roll back of rights for gays and lesbians, the collapsing economy, and the contempt of every other country in the world, then we have the chance to win BIG. As long as we can get an honest election. And as long as we do not come across as to shrill and excitable ourselves.

At least, I tell myself that, that it can be good in the long term. But, whatever, I don't think there will be a filibuster, and if there is one, I think it will be defeated. Elections have consequences, something we should never forget.

[Connie_Corleone]

14. I've been wondering where you went to.

Good to "see" you.

:hi:

[OneBlueSky]

15. you're absolutely correct . . . and yet, when one dares to criticize . . .

the Democrats or suggest looking elsewhere for candidates, we're told that we're just splitting our vote and ensuring that Republicans will continue to win . . .

but what good is having Democrats in Congress if, on every important issue -- and particularly Supreme Court appointments -- they merely enable the Republicans and facilitate the Republican agenda? . . .

[OnionPatch]

16. If there is no filibuster

I'm registering Green. I've had it.

[Individualist]

17. Not this one.

I'm not a lockstep Dem, and no republican enabler will get my vote.

[cry baby]

18. so you're leaving the party?

[G_j]

19. agreed

but I keep calling anyway, just to let them know we are watching.

[Marnieworld]

21. What about the consequence of being irrelevant?

If the unitary executive exists, as it will with an Alito court, then congress is irrelevant. He can just make his little signing statements and executive orders and then he just makes the law. The judicial branch just nods and says he can do anything he wants. King George and the congress is more of a ceremonial farce than anything of consequence.

Perhaps saving their own power given to them by the Constitution would be enough to motivate them. This is so beyond polls and future votes and they have to know this. If not it's game over democracy and they deserve what they get.

I don't think getting the base's votes is even an issue at the moment because as you said that's locked up. But what about our efforts? Will we campaign for them tirelessly? Will we donate the pennies we have to spare? That's still a viable thing to have over them. But it's their own egos they should fight for. Hopefully enough of them know it.

[MadHound]

23. Spot on post bro, spot on

And after Alito is voted in, without a filibuster, there will come the the excuses and rationalizations, and yes, most people around here will continue to reward them with their vote next fall. After all, as that tired chestnut goes, who else you gonna vote for, the Greens? Har dee har har.

Matter of fact, that is exactly who I'll be voting for. I'd rather vote for a party that is small and ineffective, yet still goes down swinging, rather than voting for a party that is large and ineffective and who rolls over like a whipped pup whenever the word fight is mentioned. At least there is hope in a small party of fighters. There is no hope when any party stops fighting.

[400Years]

25. funny how the DLC apologists have gone into hiding

[madfloridian]

29. It depends on who you are calling DLC apologists.

At this forum people are calling anyone DLC who is not against destroying the party to save it.

[400Years]

32. they know who they are

[Coexist]

31. if this thread doesn't bring them out

nothing will.

[400Years]

35. one of them just last week or so promised us a supersecret filibuster

was in the works

[madfloridian]

36. So this is flamebait.

.

[400Years]

39. no it's a wake up call

[Walt Starr]

43. Ayup

Those who are sick of being played, won't be played any more.

If my only choice is to vote for the Republican with an (R) after their name or to vote for a Republican with a (D) after their name, I'll choose to sit that race out.

Fortunately, I have yet to see a ballot in my state where I didn't have at least one other choice than the two Republicans.

[Coexist]

40. No - but from the bashing Walt sustained in that last thread

I thought his posting again might cause the same reaction.

Are you looking for it to be called that so you can request it be locked?

[madfloridian]

44. I don't know what thread you mean. Is this a calling out?

Of whom?

[Coexist]

the thread linked to in the OP

is the one I am referring to.

[madfloridian]

26. Ok, since the odds are going up of our getting back the house or senate

in the fall....I will either not vote for a Democrat unless they are perfect or I vote for the Republican.

That'll show em.

That'll really fix em.

[Walt Starr]

27. YOU BET!

:nopity:

[madfloridian]

34. If I am forced to choose.....

between the perfect folks on the left who have no party structure to offer or the imperfect ones on the right who do have some people like Dean trying to change things.....then I will go with the known.

So call me what ever you wish. I have been called far worse by the extremes on either side. I was just called a "good German" by an old DU friend...I thought. Can't say much worse than that.

[Walt Starr]

37. I haven't called you anything

All I'm saying is, you've been played.

:nopity:

[madfloridian]

49. No, you are advocating hurting the party.

I have not been "played." I know exactly what I am doing. I working within to change in spite of being made fun of here.

[Coexist]

51. if hurting the party means withholding money and votes

when they don't fight for us - which is why we elected them - then consider it tough-love.

[cry baby]

70. Withholding $ and votes from a dem will get a repub elected.

America will suffer, that isn't tough love, it's suicide.

[madfloridian]

75. I posted DU rules on this below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Democratic Candidates and the Democratic Party

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.

[Walt Starr]

84. Sometimes you have to ask yourself, which is more important

Your party, or your nation.

Tha'ts all I'm saying.

[madfloridian]

89. Ok, so you will turn our nation over to the GOP again...

rather than vote for a Democrat who doesn't filibuster.

Pardon me, but how does that help us?

I said that for a while after the election last year. I was bitter and angry.

I am still angry, but I will not bite off my nose to spite my face. There is nothing else out there for us...when I ask the people who come here wanting to not vote Democrat what do you offer...I get no answer.

But they will have voted their conscience while the nation goes to the GOP.

[Walt Starr]

106. So tell me, how has voting for nothing but Democrats my entire life

done anything to help us?

It hasn't, as evidenced by the fascist prick about to be appointed to the SCOTUS for life.

[doublethink]

90. Walt ........ some of us think that the Democratic Party ....

however de fragmented even more-so today, is the 'only hope' for our Nation. But to pull your own 'Nuclear Option' in this thread is IMHO not the answer. I thought it was only the Repubs who 'eat their own' ..... however you see it ..... our party is made up of PEOPLE, not words, not individual acts or battles won or lost day in and day out. But in the end, and from the heart, those of us that believe in righteousness have to somehow stick together, with all our differences and way of handling things, it's a long war. Everyone has their breaking point, when one says, enough is enough, and our Democratic leaders being 'Peaceful' like us, maybe haven't the spine to draw the line yet like the rest of us might want, now. No one has given in to Subjugation, not me, not you. I doubt from the heart the Democratic party in the long run won't leave us, though we as a people may have to take the eventually lead on this, they will in whatever form have our back. I personally won't turn my back on them either. Peace.

[bvar22]

68. Strawman PLUS False Dichotomy!

TWO Logical Fallacies in ONE sentence.
Well Done.
:patriot:

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[madfloridian]

80. Well, I am not breaking any rules, though, am I?

And I will work within to change rather than destroy.

[leeroysphitz]

28. Send them a message in the PRIMARIES.

Make that senate, congressional, presidential nomination COST them. It's all we've got left.

[Walt Starr]

30. Why do ya think they put off the vote so long?

Most of them are un challenged in the primaries and it's too late for another candidate to file in most cases!

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Let's start with Lieberman and work out way up.

There is no senator that I will vote for if they don't even make an effort to filibuster. Not Kerry, not Clinton, not Biden. If they won't fight for us as Senators, they won't fight for us as presidents.

[stop the bleeding]

42. Sorry Walt - we can still vote for a 3rd party or not vote at all, A NO

VOTE is just as good as voting against the DEMS right now. Fall 2006 will be an awakening for a few of these Senators that fear the GOP more than the DU'ers non votes.

[Walt Starr]

47. There ya go!

:nopity:

[stop the bleeding]

53. I'm stupid, but how is voting for a 3rd party or a NO VOTE the same as

the DEMS getting my vote and there by playing me like a :nopity:

Please explain because I may have missed something here:shrug:


On edit:

I just read your post at #43 and I think that you and I are on the same page??? correct?? So I am not stupid - at least about this correct??

[Walt Starr]

105. If the Democrats face no consequences for capitulation

then there is no reason not to capitulate.

[GOPFighter]

45. Well, one of my Senators is retiring

(Sarbanes) so Marylanders have a chance to vote in someone with fire in their belly.

[LoZoccolo]

46. Go then, get out of the "junkyard band".

And quit spamming DU with third-party propaganda.

[Coexist]

50. he is stating an opinion that a lot of us share

leave the thread if it distresses you.

[LoZoccolo]

52. If you share it you should leave too.

Too many parasites on this Democratic message board.

[400Years]

54. your pathetic, all you want is another republican party

[LoZoccolo]

56. Yeah, that's why I'm a Democrat.

I like to give money to candidates to see them lose or something.

[400Years]

85. If you support Alito you are no better than Bush

and you obviously have no problem with Alito

[LoZoccolo]

97. That assertion is full of shit.

Go away.

[Coexist]

the thread???

and please define "parasite".

[LoZoccolo]

57. No, DU.

If people here work against the Democrats, they are using a Democratic message board to do so, and thus are parasites of a resource set up for Democrats.

[Coexist]

60. So, I am a parasite if I diss Zell Miller?

Or do you have a list of approved Democrats that I can be upset about. If they vote for something I am against, I should just shut up and take it. No.

[LoZoccolo]

64. The original post is about leaving the Democratic Party...

...as confirmed by Walt's earlier thread (unless he's backed down on that already, which wouldn't surprise me plus I called it in the other thread). Not individual candidates.

[madfloridian]

55. This is now "Leaving the Democratic Party Underground."

Wow.

What do you offer in place of it? Nothing.

[Coexist]

58. Oh please.

We disagree with our leaders on A HUGE ISSUE. Give me a break. If we choose to vote conscience instead of straight party - it doesn't mean our principles have changed - the party is leaning too far right at the present time.

I am allowed to have an opinion on this, right?

[madfloridian]

61. You are advocating hurting the Democratic Party at a Democratic forum.

Since there is no viable third party, you are advocating anarchy essentially.

SO you will vote "conscience" by not voting Democrat. Good move.

[Coexist]

71. Anarchy? That is ludicrous.

Are you serious? If a candidate is too conservative for me, then Yes, I will vote for someone else.

That is my right, is it not?

[madfloridian]

77. I speak of the forum rules.

Democratic Candidates and the Democratic Party

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.

[LoZoccolo]

62. I think I went through this with you before, but here it is again.

You are allowed to have an opinion on this.

You are not allowed to use a message board set up to support the Democrats to make threats against the Democratic Party.

[Coexist]

72. threats against the Democratic party?

You guys are getting silly. I am done with this conversation.

[LoZoccolo]

73. Walt clearly makes threats against the Democratic Party...

...in this post and the one he links to, and I invite everyone to see for themselves.

[stepnw1f]

100. He Also Wanted Tookie to Fry

I'd like to see though, where exactly he threatens the democratic Party.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. They'll only respond when they can't count on our votes.

Politicians don't lead they follow the money and the votes. As long as we hold our noses and settle for the "not as bad" politicians they'll go after the votes and money that may not support them.

Vote (and support) issues not party or politicians.

[madfloridian]

63. But your issues are not everyone's issues. Who defines "bad."

Who gets to have their issues, who gets to decide.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. Here's a few.

The war in Iraq and the occupation of same.

Abortion rights.

Civil Rights.

The right to privacy - i.e. domestic spying.

What possible reason would their be to support a politician that allegedly represents me who supports the opposite? Oh, wait, I know! Because he/she is "not as bad". A choice akin to Arsenic or Cyanide.

[Walt Starr]

94. That was how the far right took over the GOP, they withheld their votes

They ended up with Clinton for eight years, but the GOP learned their lesson and played to their base.

Shows you which party is playing for laughs and which party is playing for keeps.

[LoZoccolo]

96. You've got a lot to prove with that one. n/t

[pitohui]

65. how is that playing DUers like a fiddle?

i don't think completely ignoring someone is the same as playing them

it may be a bad thing or it may be a considered decision but playing someone like a fiddle implies they've been manipulated to a purpose

i guess i don't get what you are trying to say

how is the senate playing DU because i don't see it

i think we are just being ignored as a small group of grumblers, which is irritating but not the same as being actively manipulated and played

of course they have more to fear from the republicans, have you noticed, the dark side owns the media, the presidency, the congress, and large numbers of law enforcement and military, and they got the anthrax mailer too

a sensible person would rightly fear such a beast more than the thoughtful and harmless DUer

[leftchick]

67. Very well said Walt

That DLC "centrist" aka: conservative agenda, is working really swell for the Democrats isn't it?

:nopity:

[me b zola]

69. Walt, the answer is to (eventually) vote them out in the primaries

LIEberman & Ben Nelson are two that need to be defeated by strong Dems in the primaries. Once we get this through our heads and hold their feet to the fire, they will be less inclined to take our vote(s) for granted.

We can't move the Dem party back to the left,the real center, if we all abandon ship.

[madfloridian]

74. DU rules about advocating against Democrats. link

Democratic Candidates and the Democratic Party

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic Party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[Name removed]

79. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earth mom]

76. You are spot on.

Sorry to see your thread get caught up in the "with us or against us" crap. :eyes:

Too many dems in office have absolutely no spine because they've sold their loyalty-not to mention their ethics-to their corporate masters and thus, have absolutely NO loyalty to the people who elected them and who they needed to get elected in the first place! :puke:

[ernstbass]

81. I sadly agree with everything you posted

[leftstreet]

82. Agree

Great, but sad, post.

[LittleClarkie]

86. 'K. Bye.

See you and your attitude later.

Come on back when you're ready to fight again.

[Walt Starr]

95. There hasn't been a cloture vote...

yet...

[Roho]

103. Blah blah blah.

please see my thread here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x241014

[Walt Starr]

104. Blah blah blah

See my thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=118405

[WI_DEM]

88. But the ? is--do we only punish those who won't vote for a filibuster

or the 80% or more who would vote No and also would have supported a filibuster?

[patcox2]

92. Oh yes, the "DU Strategy" is a major concern to the senators.

They sit awake at night worrying about DU. Really.

[durablend]

107. No, they spend all night

Thinking of ways to not "offend" the ruling party since THAT'S what REALLY matters

[graywarrior]

93. The masses are too stupid to know what they want.

That's their attitude. Has been since we started this country. The educated wealthy are the only ones who know what to do for the rest of us cows. They prove it over and over and over and over. When are we gonna get it?

[Geek_Girl]

99. I become more apathetic and numb every day

I'm thinking about joining up with the non-voting party.

[durablend]

108. You votes, you gets screwed or you get a doormat

Doesn't seem to be much difference these days...

[Wordie]

109. I'm so sick of hearing about "spineless" Dems...

Don't forget what they did
on the Patriot Act renewal!!!

"Spineless," my a**.

[Deja Q]

110. I am compelled to agree. They have us right where they want everyone.

They still have power, they know we'll vote for them (hah!), and will kow-tow to the neocons in some flip form of "bipartsanship".

Worse, I know a lot of republicans who aren't keen with their side of the fence either.

It's the same game; both sides play their own as chumps. It's politics. It's our way of life.

[FreedomAngel82]

111. They won't get my support than

No way. Maybe people should call, Email, fax and let them know that.

[mzmolly]

113. Walt to suggest the "consequence" be not voting for Democrats

means that we'll have years more of Republican "consequences." Haven't we had enough! Let's quit putting Democrats in a position to HAVE to filibuster court nominees.

Ineed WE are responsbile, we who don't vote, we who demand perfection, we who wish to see Democrats continually placed in an uphill battle.

I don't demand all Democrats think like I do and a filibuster requires group think. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for them to do it, but I realize they have to consider various options/angles/opinoins and they may not have ALL 41 votes they need.

Indeed I will vote for Democrats going forward, filibuster or not. I've had enough George Bush's nominating our Supreme court justices.

[LeftCoast]

114. Locking

This thread has run its course.