Official Senate Debate – Alito Nomination – Thread 5

[Sydnie]

thread 1 -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=234580&mesg_id=234580

thread 2 -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x235101

thread 3 -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=235518&mesg_id=235518

thread 4 -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=236172&mesg_id=236172

[radio4progressives]

1. Is Byrd leading a filibuster?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=236172&mesg_id=236815

[gkhouston]

3. I hope so... HE could certainly clean a few clocks! n/t

[Sydnie]

6. I would LOVE him to clean a few clocks! n/t

[Dr.Phool]

8. Does he do watches?

Mine could use a good cleaning!:evilgrin:

[Mass]

9. Byrd has still to announce how he will vote and is part of the gang of 14

Dont count too much on him for starting a filibuster on this issue. Hopefully, Alito's position concerning mine security will convince him to vote against Alito.

[Mass]

5. No, the Senate is in morning business for now and will come back

to the nomination debate after that.

[ralps]

7. It looks like he's talking about mine safty rather than Judge Alito.

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[annabanana]

12. Check out Byrd's lapel..

He's wearing one of these:


pretty cool, yes?

(at www.pinsforpatriots.com)

[gkhouston]

13. does he always wear that? n/t

[ralps]

14. Cool!!

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[Sydnie]

19. How could you see that?

It looks so small to me on my tv. I love that. I want to be buried wearing one of those!

[annabanana]

50. a thread a few days ago pointed it out..

He wears it all the time now..

[babylonsister]

61. Sadly, after this vote, that might not mean much.

:(

[AuntiBush]

111. With Ya.

Sadder then sad here.

Fascism. Had I know this would happen years ago, my home would be elsewhere. What a disgrace to our great nation.

[annabanana]

2. what just happened..

Byrd stopped and looked to his left.. Did something fall over?

[Sydnie]

4. Looked like he was checking the mic? n/t

[Sugarcoated]

10. Santorum probably kicked something over and acted like it was an accident

to distract the from Sen. Byrd's speech.

[Sydnie]

11. Byrd is speaking as in morning business

Just a speech for the record. Not his Alito speech yet.

What a tease this is, huh? :hug: to Byrd, all the same.

[Lasher]

15. Shame! Go, Bobby!

I live about an hour's drive from the southern WV mine where the 2 miners recently died.

For what it's worth, I called Senator Byrd's office on Monday, as one of his voting constituents, to ask him to vote against Alito's confirmation.

[Sydnie]

21. Where in Charleston do you live?

I grew up in Kanawha City. I miss it so much sometimes ...

[Lasher]

33. I live in Boone County, at a wide place in the road called Ashford

As you probably know, Boone is adjacent to Logan County, where the most recent fatalities occurred. Wish you could have stayed. I've lived here all my 57 years - except 2 of them, when I was drafted.

[Sydnie]

39. I had to get out - I was so stiffled there

but I love the people and I love beauty. Geesh, I remember the floods in Logan County in the '70's. What a horrible time that was for Logan County. My heart just bleeds for what this administration has done to the miners in that area.

byrd was right ... "the men in the dark".

[Lasher]

57. You must be thinking of Buffalo Creek on February 26, 1972

125 died and 1,000 were injured. I was there, as a telephone cable splicer. It was hard to be there, and I'm not talking about the long hours.

Then there was the 1977 Tug Fork valley (Matewan) flood in 1977. I was there, too.

On edit: BTW, Viva said to tell you I would start message thread 6 if you can't be around for that. I don't need to be famous, just offering help in case you need it.

[Sydnie]

71. Yes, Matewan

I knew people there at that time. I remember Buffalo Creek too. I lived 4 blocks from the Kanawha river at the time, and it scared the life out of me too. I feel so bad for all of those people. Some of the women I knew from Matewan were just beyond devastated. I am not sure they ever got over it to this day.

on edit - great - I will have to take off fairly soon, but I don't want to miss Kerry. I hope I don't miss Byrd either. I should be gone about 2 or 3 hours. Thanks for taking over!

[Lasher]

84. OK, I will start message string 6 in the series when it's time

Looks like we need new ones when the number of messages exceeds 100.

[Sydnie]

105. Got 6 - so 7 on is yours to do, ok?

I have to leave soon .... :rofl: As bad as Viva, don't want to miss the good stuff.

Love yah Viva! :)

[Lasher]

108. OK, but I'll have to drop off at around 4 PM

Will you or Viva be back by then?

[radio4progressives]

16. anyone know if Byrd has voted yet? or if he declared his vote yet? n/t

[Mass]

17. No, he has not.

[bettyellen]

18. i saw someone post a cnn tally on how they all intend to vote- straight

party except for nelson the traitor dem.

[Mass]

22. 23 Democratic senators have not yet announced their votes

5 Republicans are in the same case.

[kiteinthewind]

27. Can still wake him up, tho!! Call Sen. Ben Nelson (NE) 1-202-224-6551

:)

[Wordie]

41. And here is Senator Nelson's email and FAX info:

http://www.senate.gov/~bennelson/contact/email.cfm

FAX: [phone]

He is the only Dem Senator who has said he will vote for Alito.

Contact him to urge him to reconsider!

[GOTV]

20. Where's the filibuster? If not now, when?

I guess we can only use it if the Republicans say it's OK?

Reid said the filibuster compromise sent President Bush, Vice President Cheney and what he called the "radical arm of the Republican base" the "undeniable" message that "abuse of power will not be tolerated."

We'll let's see it.

[Sydnie]

24. Not time yet. They still have time for debate

until someone motions for cloture. Then the fun begins.

[radio4progressives]

40. cloture occurs after everyone has voted,

according to Roberts Rules of Order?

[Sydnie]

62. cloture is the motion (vote) to end debate and bring it to a vote

Two step process I beleive.

[nickinSTL]

25. when? there's a time for it...

and during morning business isn't the time.

[GOTV]

76. I didn't mean literally at the time of my post...

... I meant the Alito confirmation issue. The media reports that a filibuster is not likely although to me it looks like a filibuster would not be defeated.

I repeat the question. If not over Alito, when would a filibuster be appropriate?

[nickinSTL]

80. ah, THAT I agree with

I misunderstood...thought you were getting impatient with the proceedings, sorry. :hi:

[GOTV]

81. Cool... no prob!

[Skidmore]

26. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the fillibuster just means

that they are able to ensure a certain number of votes against him.

[nickinSTL]

31. not exactly...

what a filibuster is...is something like this:

when a vote is called (or end to discussion, cloture), the opposition tries to prevent the voting by talking...the talking can be ended with enough votes for...but in this case, if 41 support the filibuster, the speaking can't be stopped, which essentially means a vote can't be called.

If I understand it right...I might be missing something.

on edit:

In a legislature or other decision making body, a filibuster is an attempt to obstruct a particular decision from being taken by using up the time available, typically through an extremely long speech...

Under Senate rules, the speech need not be relevant to the topic under discussion, and there have been cases in which a senator has undertaken part of a speech by reading from a telephone directory. Senator Strom Thurmond (D-SC) set a record in 1957 by filibustering the Civil Rights Act of 1957 for 24 hours and 18 minutes, although the bill ultimately passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_(legislative_tactic)

Which means that the 41 are necessary to SUSTAIN a filibuster. In Thurmond's case above, he didn't have the votes to prevent the vote entirely.

[Sydnie]

44. A filibuster only allows 30 more hours of debate, if I recall correctly

then the motion for cloture can be brought again? I might not be correct, but I think that is how it goes in modern days.

[nickinSTL]

52. then what would be the point?

A filibuster by the Dems would accomplish nothing.

Why are we bothering to wait and hope for one?

[Sydnie]

56. Think back to Anwr vote

Once it was effectively filibusterd (not allowed to be brought to closture), the deal was made to remove it from the bill. If we can stop the yes vote, it brings possibly others to the nay side in the next round. The first vote is to support your party, the second is to make deals on. At least, that's how I see it.

[GOTV]

73. If they cannot get 60 votes for alito....

... The filibuster will prevent his confirmation

[GOTV]

79. Yes, fine...

... and we continue the filibuster until the GOP can muster 60 votes, they go nuclea, or they give up.

[radio4progressives]

23. Memory Refresher request: I think Alito has a bad record on Coal Miners,

seems Durbin gave a passing reference to such cases that Alito negatively impacted. anyone remember?

if i'm correct, Byrd's vote has to be NO.

[Sydnie]

30. Byrd has to be no because of Unitary Executive

anything that would take the power away from congress would not sit well with him.

[yellowdogmi]

78. A little hope?

After the Clarence Thomas hearings Senator Byrd wrote, “From years of experience, I would say that we do the country a disservice by rushing any nomination, unless there is a clear record as to the nominee’s integrity, capability, and qualifications, as well as an overriding need for speedy action.”

[radio4progressives]

36. Weird, Byrd hasn't voted yet and neither has Clinton

what the hell is going on? back room deals?

[gkhouston]

38. trying not to telegraph intent?

it's not like they have to declare at this point. They may want to keep the R's guessing about how many votes are out there vis a vis a filibuster.

[radio4progressives]

43. but for what ultimate purpose?

why would such a strategy be effective at this juncture? exactly what is to be gained?

[gkhouston]

60. if they intend to filibuster, they're not likely to crank that up on

day one of the debate; there's no need, as they only need the filibuster to prevent a vote. If virtually all the Dems come out on day one saying they're going to vote "no", then the R's will know a filibuster is coming for sure and the spin machine will start days before the filibuster does. What is there to be gained by announcing votes on the first day of floor debate?

[GOTV]

89. Apparently there are 8 dems against the filibuster....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x237051


So, although there might be more than 41 votes agains, a filibuster would not be sustained.

[ralps]

28. Quorum call on now

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[Greeby]

29. That was another heartbreaker

:cry:

[Sydnie]

34. I hope that someone soon writes a "lonesome" country song

about him. You know the kind where you hear it and weep because the tune and the words are so haunting? That would be the best tribute to him, a folk song to remember him by.

[Wordie]

37. What a lovely thought. I hope someone does do that. It's a great idea.nt

[Lasher]

45. If you play country music backward...

Your estranged wife will come back to you, and your hunting dog, which you thought had died, will come running up on the porch and shower your with affection.

[Sydnie]

48. Personally, I love bluegrass music

I can hear a nice whiny fiddle in this song for Byrd in my head! :)

[radio4progressives]

63. you betcha.. and a dear song called West Virginia, My Home

Hazel Dickens and Alice Gerrard wrote and recorded this song. It's one of my all time favorties.

WEST VIRGINIA MY HOME by Hazel Dickens

West Virginia, oh my home.
West Virginia, where I belong.
In the dead of the night,
in the still and the quiet I slip away like a bird in flight
Back to those hills, the place that I call home.

It's been years now since I left there
And this city life's about got the best of me.
I can't remember why I left so free
what I wanted to do, what I wanted to see,
But I can sure remember where I come from.

Well I paid the price for the leavin'
And this life I have is not one I thought I'd find.
Just let me live, love, let my cry, but when I go just let me die
Among the friends who'll remember when I'm gone.

Chorus:

Home, home, home. I can see it so clear in my mind.

Home, home, home. I can almost smell the honeysuckle vines.

In the dead of the night, in the still and the quiet I slip away like a bird in flight Back to those hills, the place that I call home.

[Sydnie]

77. That's beautiful!!!!

:cry:

[radio4progressives]

87. It's even more fitting to sing and play it. or to hear the recording..

Hazel and Alice back in the seventies.. do a google and you'll find lots of info on background and downloads of sound clips..

[yellowdogmi]

112. There is a lot to be said for the dog

I am not sure about the estranged wife.

PS. read the highlight at the bottom.
Just my lousy sense of humor.
:shrug:

[Lasher]

113. Yep, if I had to pick I would take the dog (EOM)

[UCLA02]

32. Who's sitting in the chair now?

I'm watching it online streaming and can't see clearly. Did Byrd just refer to a male senator as "Madame President" as he yielded?

[Wordie]

35. Just a reminder: Capitol Switchboard numbers to call your Senators:

Capitol switchboard numbers:

1-888 355 3588
1-888 818 6641
1-877 851 6437

Just tell the operator which Senator you wish to speak to and you will be connected.

And these are toll-free!

[AuntiBush]

91. Just Called Mine Again...

Mikulski voted "NO" thank God.
Sarbanes has yet to vote - I did call his office.

Nelson (D) just voted YES! This is the saddest day in the history of our country, by far.

[cyberpj]

102. I think they have something on this guy. nt

[AuntiBush]

110. ?

Alito or my Sen?

[cyberpj]

114. Sorry. I meant Nelson. The lone Dem. nt

[Skidmore]

42. There's a thread on the "Alito 8", identifying 8 Senators

who will not support a fillabuster. Has everyone had a look at it?

[Sydnie]

46. NO - didn't know it was that clear cut

Who are they, do you know?

[Skidmore]

51. Here's the thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x237051

[Coexist]

47. did you see my post on that thread

I called Reid's office (again) and specifically asked about plans for a filibuster, she said she knew of no such plan. I asked it again a different way - same response.

Why am I even bothering to watch them pontificate if its all for naught.

[nickinSTL]

49. to be fair,

if they're keeping it under wraps, they're not going to admit to it in a phone call from a constituent.

Not that I'm holding my breath, mind you, just pointing out that that doesn't really prove anything.

[helderheid]

53. President Kerry up

[helderheid]

54. spoke too soon

[ralps]

55. Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky speaks/ bloviates on Alito

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[Sydnie]

58. Yeah, Kentucky is such a scandal free state too, right?

Sit down and STFU!

[ralps]

59. Bunning Thinks Alito is fair & impartial

Yea Right! Not :hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :mad:

[Skidmore]

68. Lord, I'm tired of Rs trying to make their choices for judges

out to be "neutral." That they have no agenda and are not subject to influence. They would have chosen this man if all of the above weren't true.

[Roland99]

70. Bunning isn't capable of thinking.

[Don Claybrook]

88. That's not true!!!!

As a fellow Louisvillian, I have to point out that Bunning is doing a knock-up job helping to prosecute the War on Lasagna (or whatever else his addled brain has substituted for reality). And you might have a hard time thinking too if Osama was chasing you all over the state while you campaigned.

[hwmnbn]

75. Isn't Bunning that real whack job?.....

whose mental capacity was called into question?

He was an asshole pitcher when he played baseball too.

[Roland99]

64. Bunning is able to be coherent? That senile old bastard

Can't believe Mongiardo lost to that prick.

[Gregorian]

65. Democracy waits for men like this to get out of it's way.

Ew. Yuck. What a stinker of a being.

I keep thinking, those who would lie to you would also steal from you.

[LiberalAndProud]

67. they want ...

zzzz

[ralps]

72. Bunning wants an up or down vote on Alito, another quorum call

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[CHORONZON]

66. filibuster

I wouldn't count on it, but one can hope. Reid seems to have a knack for getting his people in line and he has a taste for surprises. Remember that move to go into closed session he pulled after the Libby indictment? I was laughing my ass off.

[Roland99]

69. Welcome to DU, CHORONZON!

:hi:

[radio4progressives]

74. the reason i was thinking Byrd was leading one..

is because filibuster has morphed over the years, that's it hard to understand when it is NOT happening in Congress.. :)

Byrd's coal mining concerns seemed to go right to the core of what is at issue regarding the confirmation, and i hadn't realized he was in a "morning business" procedure.

[helderheid]

82. welcome to DU!!

:hi:

I'm thrilled to see so many new DUers!

[Coexist]

83. Welcome to DU - I am hoping

but with a heavy heart. I just don't know.

[Sydnie]

85. How the nuclear option works

The "nuclear option" which Republican leaders are threatening is actually a series of steps designed to bypass the two-thirds vote requirement to change rules: (cite)
The Senate moves to vote on a controversial nominee.
At least 41 Senators call for filibuster.
Majority Leader Frist raises a point of order, saying debate has gone on long enough and that a vote must be taken within a certain time frame. (Current Senate rules requires a cloture vote at this point.)
Vice President Cheney -- acting as presiding officer -- sustains the point of order.
A Democratic Senator appeals the decision.
A Republican Senator moves to table the motion on the floor (the appeal).
This vote - to table the appeal - is procedural and cannot be subjected to a filibuster; it requires only a majority vote (in case of a tie, the Vice President casts the tie-breaking vote).
With debate ended, the Senate would vote on the nominee; this vote requires only a majority of those voting. The filibuster has effectively been closed with a majority vote instead of a three-fifths vote.
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/i/filibuster.htm

[Sydnie]

98. More on nuclear option here

In the 88 years since the adoption of Rule XXII, senators from both sides of the aisle have threatened the "nuclear" option more than a half-dozen times. Each time, the Senate has been loath to drop this particular bomb on its own house, and for good reason.

The rules of procedure adopted by the Senate are "the only weapon by which the minority can defend themselves" against "the irregularities and abuses … which the wantonness of power is but too often apt to suggest to large and successful majorities," as Thomas Jefferson warned. (T. Jefferson, A Manual of Parliamentary Practice, § I.)

A strategy for the Republican majority to overhaul the filibuster rules recently appeared in an article co-authored by Martin Gold, Sen. Frist's former floor adviser, entitled, "The Constitutional Option to Change Senate Rules and Procedures: A Majoritarian Means to Overcome the Filibuster" (Martin B. Gold and Dimple Gupta, Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 24, No. 1). A draft of this article made the rounds of Senate Republicans at the end of 2004, according to Jeffrey Toobin, writing in the March 7 issue of The New Yorker. Gold contends that, under Article I, Section 5, the Senate is free to change, or even ignore, Rule XXII and to close debate by a simple majority vote under "traditional parliamentary procedures," which are found in Robert's Rules of Order.

However, Gold and his Senate cohorts have miscalculated. A vote to "call the question" and end debate requires a two-thirds majority vote under Robert's Rules, because cutting off debate infringes on a member's right to speak (Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (10th ed. 2000), pp. 189-201). Thus, resorting to traditional parliamentary procedures would result in an increase in the voting requirement to close debate.
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1111781921564

[Lasher]

107. Very well described

If this scenario ensues, it is possible that Democrats would invoke other Senate rules to just shut everything down. But then you would wonder why the repukes wouldn't use this little game to circumvent every one of them. After all, if the Constitution and other laws don't apply to Dubya, why would the repuke-controlled Senate have to follow a bunch of annoying rules?

This is why I don't think Byrd will support a filibuster. He's afraid of the damage all this would do to the Senate, which he holds dear.

[AuntiBush]

86. Nelson Voted "YES!"

I'm seriously ill now.

[ralps]

90. I don't think Nelson has formally voted yet

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[radio4progressives]

96. isn't the vote on the floor a formal vote? n/t

[radio4progressives]

92. Yes, apparently you missed all the discussion on this vote in the past

week. Ben Nelson came out last week and stated how he intended to vote, (yes) and he was often cited as the only Democrat to declare his intentions in advance of the floor vote.

Heard his interviews over this issue on WJ yesterday, and a listener calling in on the Democratic line told him to change to parties. his rationalization was frankly simply a huge yawn.

[AuntiBush]

104. Just Got In & Turned on C-SPAN2

I've missed a lot, my apologies.

Always the last to know... I literally rushed in the door and grabbed the remote. I did call 1 of my 2 Senators.
Mikulski has voted NO - Sarbanes has yet to vote.

Don't want to jinx anything, but as a rule Sarbanes will go with Mikulski. I'm hopeful after speaking with his aide.

[nickinSTL]

93. those are just declared intentions...not actual votes

Nelson has SAID he'll vote yes, but the voting hasn't started yet.

[AuntiBush]

97. I Hope You're Right.

Seen it flash before the screen, left hand side for Alito COnfirmation.

Why would he vote yes, now though?

[gkhouston]

99. are you confusing Nelson of Florida with Nelson of Nebraska? n/t

[AuntiBush]

109. Nebraska

[radio4progressives]

100. I see. It would be a stunning reversal of declared intentions.

if Nelson (NE) voted ended up voting No.

[bettyellen]

94. we waiting on kerry?

[Floogeldy]

95. Yes. He is next.

:)

[orleans]

103. who is the lastest repukie that voted yes? n/t

[Sydnie]

101. thread 6 is up now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x237473

[kpete]

106. Hope you don't mind an interruption from Raw Story...

Democratic aides break silence on Alito vote: Filibuster still 'long shot;' Senators who will vote against Alito may not back filibuster: Developing...

http://www.rawstory.com/

I will try to update - does not look good