What will be the excuse for the stolen election this time?

[ariellyn]

Remember how America voted for "moral" values in 2004 causing an upset that defied the statistical polls.

All polls again point in the same direction as they did two years ago. But I'm not betting that we will see a democratic senate and house. If anything, I believe they will "give" us the lowly house leaving the senate to overturn whatever is proposed.

Giving us the house will also put off those who are on the stolen election trail.

I just wonder what fairytale will be spun to explain away the obvious.

[longship]

1. The polls are not the same as two years ago.

Are you really comparing 2004, when all the Repukes had to do is get their insider Secy of State in Ohio to jig some things to suppress voter turnout in a very close contest, to 2006, when there are 70 races across the nation many of which are not even close?

Interesting. Did you even consider what it would take to rig a congressional midterm election?

We need to be vigilant on election day. We need media and lawyers on the ground ready to go. We need poll watchers and others to witness any shenanigans. But this election is not a presidential election which can be turned in one state.

You claim that it is going to be stolen? I'd like to know how the Hell the Repukes are going to do that in districts where Democrats are in control of the vote counting, where there are honest election commissioners who would never let that happen, where there are legacy voting machines which are difficult to rig (like in NY and CT).

Jigging one race in one state is one thing, jigging 70 races nationwide is an entire other thing. I think the Repukes know that the "fix" won't work this time. It won't stop them from trying some things but the margins are too large in many of these races and there are too damned many of them.

That's why I'm working GOTV this year.

[Junkdrawer]

7. "Democrats are in control of the vote counting"..no, the vendor...

counts the votes. And expert after expert has shown how easy it would be for the vendor to rig the system without a trace.

That being said, I think the Democrats will "win big" this election. They need to quiet the "election fraud" talk and, more importantly, they need a bi-partisan face for the next expansion of the Mid-East oil wars (aka The War on Terror).

BTW: By "they" I mean the Big Oil/Big Money folks who actually control the country.

[longship]

8. But Deibold isn't in every place.

What about those places where un-riggable legacy machines are still being used? What about those places that still use paper ballots? What about those places where secure procedures are in place in spite of the machines?

I know you are worried about electoral theft, but this time the situation is entirely different. There's too many races in too many different places. If the Repukes tried to rig them all, they will likely get caught. The good news is that they'd have to rig them all because the Dems only need 15 seats in the House and there are upwards of fifty seats (or more) in play.

Electoral rigging just isn't a valid strategy this time. The Repukes know this. Why don't many DUers know it?

[Junkdrawer]

10. Deibold is the only vendor to be examined in depth....

and HAVA has a 2006 deadline that has put the machines in just about every state but NY and CT. And they only have a waiver for this year.

And, if you read the rest of my post, you'll see that I predict a big Dem win this year.

[longship]

11. I saw that.

I posted a response more for those around here who are intent on screeching about stolen elections without thinking about the scope of what would be necessary this time.

I think things are going all in the right direction. Nothing's going to help the Repukes.

[BeFree]

12. 80% of ballots

Will be cast on electronic counters, and the other 20% use computers to tally lever and paper votes. It is all computerized, therefore every vote is in danger. Heck, in my cong. district there are no fewer than 3 different ways of counting ballots... a recipe for manipulation.

It must be nice to look at this election through your rose colored glasses. And ignorance, as they say, can be bliss. Can I borrow those glasses for awhile?

[longship]

16. We've been through this before.

BeFree, why do we have to go through this yet again?

What are you doing to stop the theft of this election?
Have you volunteered as a poll watcher?
etc.

[BeFree]

21. Yes

And until you get it that your ideas have no basis in fact I will continue to discuss this with you.

Tell you a bit of what I have done, since you asked.

Told every elected official I've met (10) my feelings on letting the machines count my votes. Some more than once.

Have gone to the local election board and argued my case. They are seeing the wisdom and are responding favorably. But it's just one county, eh?

Have read 100's of hours about this HAVA mess and have acquired a great deal of knowledge which I am trying to share. Share here, on the streets and in newspaper offices.

Tell me, longship, what will count your vote? Mine will be listed on a paper ballot and counted by an ES&S opscan. Now then, if my efforts are successful, my county's ballots will be audited by humans, and I suspect that the machines will have been found to NOT count votes correctly.

What have you done? Remember, the vote you save may be your own.

[longship]

25. Fact?

You have an opinion. You have a perfect right to that opinion. But when the "they'll steal it" crowd insists on inflicting their opinions on every single midterm thread here at DU, somebody has to stand up and call them on it. That would be me, among others.

If we are in such grave danger than I suggest that you people get together and solve the problem. Yet, I see not one smidgeon of advocacy in these threads. All I read is doom, gloom, and silly arguments on how the whole thing is useless since it's going to be stolen anyway. If you people spent half the amount of effort you use to carpet bomb DU election threads on getting people on the ground on the 7th, the problem might go away.

Are you all part of the problem, or part of the solution?

Just once I'd like to see some posts like "Help us on the 7th to protect our votes" instead of "They'll Steal It11111!". Try using positive advocacy instead of doom and gloom and just maybe your movement will gain some traction.

[ariellyn]

30. Your self righteousness is revolting. Who made you election theft czar?

It's obvious that you are AGAINST the possibility of theft. I wonder WHY.

Your incessant protests that there absolutely cannot be any theft of the election only begs the question: how can YOU be so sure? Do you have some inside information to support YOUR OPINION?

Urging others to volunteer and to become advocates does not change the fact that our elections are vulnerable--whoever may witness the theft. After all, once the election is stolen, if history is any indicator, there is little to no chance that the decision will be reversed.

[riderinthestorm]

38. I am in IL CD#6, Roskam v Duckworth

The county just went and purchased the Diebold machines specifically for this election, they actually said this during the one public hearing before the purchase of these very expensive machines. This will be a very close race with Henry Hyde's well oiled machine primed to make sure his hand-picked successor (Roskam) wins. There are several really nefarious links between Hyde, his office and the Diebold people.....

There were numerous protests before the machines were purchased (I know, I was there). There were numerous challenges publicly and legally. Yet they went with Diebold instead of persisting with the opti-scan/paper ballots which had worked perfectly well up til then. The county was in a huge hurry to purchase the Diebold machines, the election board worked extremely rapidly (we had one week to organize, protest and ultimately try to head off this very quick decision!), and then they quickly shut off all dissent (all of our FOIA requests are still "pending").

And they managed to get the deal done just before this extremely close race.

I call foul! :grr:

Duckworth is currently polling just 5 points ahead of Roskam. It's close enough that if Roskam manages to squeak out a "victory" (cough, cough) with these Diebold machines, it will be seen as just a "close" District. I believe these are the Districts that the thugs who will manipulate the vote totals are focusing on. They can get away with manipulating these kinds of races (of which many Congressional races, if not most of them, are like this).

You would have to open up an absolutely vast lead to overcome the code written into these machines that skews the votes the repuke way. That just ain't going to happen in these kinds of areas. The repukes are planning on that.

[BeFree]

36. Here's the difference between us

We think we won in 2000, 2002, and 2004.

You think the Dems were turned down by the voters in all of those losses.
You think Dems were losers.

We know we will win this election. But we are aware enough to see that elections have been stolen, and we are alerting people like you, people who think Dems have lost, to the fact that we did not lose....

We were ripped off.

And if we can't convince people like you that you have been ripped off, you may not realize it when it happens again.

Pretty doggone simple.

[riderinthestorm]

39. Kick for this post alone. nt

[Awsi Dooger]

48. Why do you lump 2000, 2002 and 2004?

Not equivalent. There was a preference shift toward the GOP as a result of 9/11, slicing our numbers among white women and dramatically altering the political landscape. Only this year has the gender gap re-established in our favor. And don't give me the crap the supposedly unreliable adjusted exit polls are the only thing asserting women turned toward the GOP. That was forewarned in dozens of polls prior to those elections especially in 2004.

Florida was an improper and obscene result in 2000 but absolutely I believe we lost in 2002 and 2004.

[ariellyn]

50. You are entitled to your opinion. There is evidence to the contrary. nt

[BeFree]

56. Why?

Well, if you think the American people voted for this bunch of criminals, go right ahead.

But the rest of us know better and we have the evidence that shows machine manipulations across the country. You see, all you have is the criminal's word and you can't prove the vote count results, because there was no paper!

I understand your anguish, if you want to believe the Dems were losers and we keep coming up with ways that show Dems really, actually won.

To believe Dems lost is to believe we will lose again, and I don't believe any of that. We were ripped off.

[longship]

57. What are you doing about it?

Especially since you think that the Repukes are going to try to steal, tell me what action you have taken. In what precinct have you volunteered as a poll watcher? Or a poll worker? Will you have media liasons and lawyers on the ground? Are you working GOTV?

If this is so important to you, I *know* that you are taking action. Please describe it so that we can all join in on the effort.

Thanks.

on edit: I didn't say a damned word about 2000, 2002, and 2004. How can you presume my opinion on those matters? Typical RW tactic.

[BeFree]

58. It's obvious

If one can't fathom that this election will be stolen, then one must certainly think the elections before were not stolen.

Anyone who believes this election could be stolen, does so from the basis that the past elections were stolen.

Therefore anyone who discounts the idea that this election could be stolen, and mounts an effort like you have these past few days to put a lid on the pleadings, must believe that no election was ever stolen, will be stolen, or can be stolen, and moreover thinks Dems have been the losers in all those elections.

Either you do or you don't. Simple.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I responded earlier to what I am doing. Look down thread.

On edit: My resume was not posted on this thread, it was another thread. I will make an attempt to find it, hold your horses! I'll be right back.

Can't find it. So here is a rehash...

Have talked to 10 elected officials about this problem, two different newspapers, 100's of regular folks, six different election officials, my local board of elections at a public meeting, every campaign staff member I have had the opportunity to talk too.... in short anyone who would listen. And now you.

I have spent hundreds of hours researching this matter and am familiar with any of a dozen ways the computers can steal votes without anyone knowing.

Ask me anything, if I can't answer it, I can find someone who can.

[longship]

59. A simple suggestion

Listen, I'm with you guys. I just think you need to reformat your message so that people know how they can help. It's all a matter of framing, my friend. We can act in unison on these matters. So, why in the Sam Hell haven't all you people who are convinced that the Repukes will steal this election activated on it? If you *have* activated, why aren't you posting about *that* instead of highjacking every election thread with mindless "They'll steal it!!" posts.

These forums can be used for good, or for bad. The never-ending "They'll steal it" posts do nothing positive. Posting, "Help protect our votes--here's how" would be a *much* more positive framing and would help get DU behind your efforts.

Listen, I'm with you guys. I just think you should inform people about how they can help.

Please get together and start doing something *positive* about this instead of all this doom and gloom, which doesn't do a damned bit of good.

[BeFree]

60. Doom and gloom?

Yeah, you are a big help. Instead of being with us, you are attacking us, calling us screechers, doom and gloomers, and who knows what.

As an active particiapnt in DU's Eletion Reform Forum since it's inception, it is evident that there are those who think Dems are losers and those who think we are winners.

If seems to me that if one thinks we are losers, then elections are fair and square. But knowing that elections are NOT fair and square leads one to believe that Dems are winners.

So, the question is: Are we winners, or losers?

I know what the reply would be from the DLC, DNC, and RNC. "Losers".

But I know better. I think we are winners.

[longship]

64. I think we are winners, too, my friend.

This kind of reminds me of Kelly's Heroes.

Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves.
...
Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Just a friendly recommendation, which hopefully will be taken in good humor.

on edit:

[EFerrari]

14. The Thuggery were busy in many states, no just Ohio.

Try "anomolies" in NM, CO, TN, GA, PA, NC, FL. OH was just the most blatant thievery.

[Mist]

2. "Terra, terra, stay the course, terra, terra..." nt

[rock]

3. Perhaps America will vote for "immoral" values this time

In which case, the GOP should do swimmingly!

[Demobrat]

4. Stay the course.

Of course.

[BlooInBloo]

5. damn hopelessness trolls.

[ariellyn]

31. Are you referring to me as a troll? Try reading my post history

before prematurely jumping to conclusions.

[BlooInBloo]

45. "prematurely jumping to conclusions"? Hi pot! I'm kettle!

[4morewars]

6. I don't think so.

The 'lowly house' is the body that can investigate these war criminals.

John Conyers, a member of said house, would be the head of the judiciary committee, with subpoena power.
THAT, is the last thing this bunch of criminals wants to see.
Their activities of the last few years can't stand up to any investigation, so obvious are many of their crimes.

However, I agree with the rest of your post. They can't afford to lose.
Do we still hang treasonous fuckers ? We are in a war, afterall.

[Taxloss]

9. With all this fatalism on the Left, they won't need to "steal" it.

Thanks to posts like this, Democrats won't even bother voting next time.

[BeFree]

15. BS

Totally. Your's is true fatalism. The factual info found in posts like this is knowledge. Knowledge that everyone needs to acquire and recognize.

Do you know how your vote will be counted?

[EFerrari]

18. JInx.

:)

[Taxloss]

19. Factual? Don't make me laugh.

The OP is speculation about possible justifications that might be used for an event that has not happened. Wow, a feast of facts. What knowledge? Just idle doom-mongering.

Why not join efforts to get people out and voting, and to aid efforts to monitor voting an exit polls? Far more useful than playing Cassandra.

[ariellyn]

32. Getting the vote out . . .

does not change the fact that three elections have been stolen--from right under the noses of all the millions who turned out to vote.

Prove that getting the vote out will annihilate vote theft and you may be on to something. History has proven otherwise.

Perhaps threads like this will lead to brainstorming and real solutions--as one poster said, "strategery."

[EFerrari]

17. You mistake fatalism with realism. Not only do we GOTV,

we have to make damn sure our votes are counted.

[Taxloss]

20. Then join election monitoring efforts.

Don't indulge in idle negativity on the internet. What good does a thread like this do? It simply demoralises.

That's more directed at the OP than you, as I know you do very useful work on GOTV.

[BeFree]

22. Actually

You are demoralizing me by discounting my knowledge and activism.

When I consider that the dems are sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to this most important of issues, it is downright disgusting.

They stole the 2000 election.

Then they robbed Georgia in 2002.

Kerry was robbed in 2004, and you expect us to just get over it? BS.

[Taxloss]

24. You act like the Dems have already lost.

That does nothing but demoralise. Hey, guess what, they might WIN! But that will take work.

[BeFree]

35. Act like dems have lost?

Well, gosh. We did lose in 2000, 2002, and 2004. Well, we didn't actually lose, we were ripped off. But come to think of it, you are the one acting like we did actually lose. How 'bout that? You are acting like we lost, and I am acting like we won!

Look here, I am working. I work a couple of days a week at the local party office. And you are letting me down by not being aware of what has happened and what I think will happen, again.

You're not helping me think we will win, because the only way to overcome the machines is by all of us being up to speed.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

13. Let's concentrate on GOTV

If the U.S. manages a relatively free election then I think the Democratic Party may win big next month. I hope that Democratic voters are not put off by notions of stolen elections because we need each vote.

[EFerrari]

23. I understand why some posters to this thread object to

speculating about the theft of this next election. And so the following two points are for them.

One, election fraud can't be the dirty secret of reform activists. We have to get people good and mad about what is being done to their elections. We need to enlist people to help take back our ballot boxes. People who say "so, why bother voting" are copping out and most likely would find some other reason not to "bother".

Two, speculation can be a useful tool in getting ready to fight back. I'm all for trying to figure out where these bastards will hit us next -- like here in CA, for example. That way we can come up with a strategery to head them off or expose them. :)

[longship]

26. If this is about activism...

I suggest that the doom and gloom crowd start framing it that way.

Much can be done on the ground to check and balance election fraud. Let's see more advocacy and less doom and gloom.

[EFerrari]

27. I think you make a good point.

:)

[Hubert Flottz]

28. A stolen election would be a VERY Big Mistake

Look at Mexico!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

29. all they will have to do is say "prove it"

and if you can't ... you lose ...

sP

[EstimatedProphet]

33. I doubt we'll even get the House

Here's what I am afraid will happen: the polls stay like they are now, then some blatantly stupid thing happens that will in and of itself have no bearing on the election just before November, and then suddenly the Repubs will win every seat. And we'll roll over and take it.

When I've talked about this in the past, I think people have missed the point of what I'm talking about, so let me clarify it. I believe the last 3 elections were stolen, by the media and using voting machines. I believe that the Repubs are kind of like 3 year old kids, and they are enjoying themselves pushing things to see what they can get away with. They have been laughing at us this entire decade so far. I believe that Repub leadership thinks of themselves as invincible now, especially with the abovementioned voting machines. And like the little kids that they are deep down inside, I believe they will again attempt to steal the election - but they will keep doing it in a more blatant, obvious, insulting way, as a measure of stroking thier egos. Kind of a "See what I can get away with" attitude.

And unfortunately, I think the majority of the country will roll over, regardless of what happens. The Repubs could come out and say they took the Elf and Fairy vote, and that's why they won, and the average person wouldn't bat an eye. Thinking too hard about what the election results means gets in the way of watching American Idol.

[EFerrari]

34. I know what you mean about the Elf and Fairy vote.

And you can bet people like Donna Brazzile (sp?) will be on the talk shows chatting it up.

We WILL NOT ROLL OVER AGAIN. I swear on my kids' heads, if they try this again, I will drop everything else and work it 24/7.

:nuke:

[EstimatedProphet]

46. GOOD!

That's the spirit! That, and only that, is what will scare them into not stealing it again!

[EFerrari]

53. These psychopaths know no fear. We have to be willing

to protect black. low income and student precincts. We have to be there.

And we have to be willing to challenge them. We have to.

[ariellyn]

54. I am taking off November 7th to work at an inner city polling place in

my county. I will certainly be watching what takes place.

[EFerrari]

55. Good for you! Because *that* is where the theft happens. n/t

[B Calm]

37. Rush Limbaugh has been saying the cons will pick up 25 to 30 seats

[onenote]

62. Rush Limpballs is a delusional idiot

[Jose Diablo]

40. Well, the machines have to overcome a 21 point lead

however, Kim Jong-il will probably be rolled out as the reason.

[Catherine Vincent]

41. I hear what you are saying but...

you should have used "reason" instead of "excuse", imo.

[ariellyn]

43. Very good point but it's too late to edit. n/t

[smalll]

42. What will be the excuse of the fraudster conspiracists -

when the Democrats take 50 new seats in the House on the momentum of Foleygate? That's a more relevant question, IMHO.

I think the main excuse will be, "Well, it was only an off year election, and Rove and the Republicans are only prepared and or able to steal Presidential elections. Wait until 2008."

[ariellyn]

44. Who are the fraudset conspiracists? If you mean Republicons

who will cry conspiracy and election theft as though the Dems stole the election, then I'm with you. I definitely foresee the Cons claiming that the Dems stole the election--this one and any others in the future even though they are master thieves.

[Ino]

47. They no longer care

They don't care if their "reason" for winning is plausible. They're in so deep they CAN'T let Conyers have subpoena power. They'll try to steal the elections any way they can in order to keep a majority. It'll be impossible to sort out since Dems will still be the minority and Repugs control the courts & media. In the meantime, they'll continue looting the country & dismantling the Constitution.

The only solution will be taking to the streets.

I hope I'm wrong. I really really hope I'm wrong.

[ariellyn]

51. Ino, your name says it all--I know too. I hope I am wrong too.

You are right about taking to the streets. Of course, we are living a police state now and the consequences for doing so will be much more unpleasant than any of us may imagine.

[Rocknrule]

49. God wanted the Republicans to win and continue ruling the world

so He used Diebold again to stuff the ballot boxes for His favorite party
:puke:

[ariellyn]

52. That God wanted Republicons to win sounds like something they'd say

and that the idiots they pander to wiil believe.

[onenote]

61. which senate seats do you think will be stolen

Curious to know which one's. Obviously not Indiana, where there is no Democrat on the ballot. Probably not Florida. New Jersey? Tennessee? If its not all of them, you must have some particular locations in mind.

[WI_DEM]

63. the polls are not the same as two years ago and

even Bush was leading in most polls up until the election--by a small margin. However, Ohio was probably stolen as the exit polls testify, but Kerry would have still lost the national popular vote.