How Stoopid Do You Think Joe Six Pack Is?

[omega minimo]

This morning he’s got my car blocked in with huge work truck, shoveling dirt out of a trailer. He’s been filling, leveling and framing for a new patio. I ask if the rain canceled the cement pour he had planned.

“Nah, my guy from work canceled on me, called with a” (imitates whiny voice) “ah, I’ve got an e-MER-gen-cy.”

He’s in construction, been working 12 hour days and prepping this patio as a side job after work. “What company do you work for?”

“GravelCorp. I been there a long time. Hopefully in 6 years I can retire. I had people telling me ‘Ya gotta get in there early.’ I’m with the union. Yeah, I’ll be retiring when I’m 40. Some of my buddies, they’re in their mid-forties and just gettin goin. They’ll be workin til they’re in their sixties. It ain’t worth it, workin for these guys for your little $500 a week, ya gotta be on your own and take time to enjoy life..... (takes a breath)..... yeah that’s the plan and I hope I’m retired when I’m forty if it all doesn’t go ta shit ya never know what’s gonna happen, this economy about to go down the tubes.”

He moves the truck and trailer load of dirt. I head for work, while he squeezes a bit more time for this project into his OT schedule on the union job, building major infrastructure. Taxpayer funded infrastructure.

His parents own the house he’s working on. His mother has told me, “I know you’re liberal but you better hope Arnold wins this time or more businesses are gonna leave California, Arnold SAVED California and if you getta Democrat in there they’re gonna raise taxes... (takes a breath).... and people stayed because of that but if a Democrat gets in there more people are gonna leave and go to Nevada or wherever and move their businesses.”

These people are hard working, hard playing folks. They are hyperactive and loud as hell and talk a mile a minute and work from sunup to sundown and beyond. They is not dumb.

They may not be intellectual or obsess about strategery or pay attention to politics much at all. But they know what is goin on.

This man knows he was smart to start early and fortunate to be in the union. He knows that his plans for early retirement could be undone by a shaky economy ready to bite The Big One.

For his parents, it boils down to taxes making it too expensive to do business in California. That’s it. Arnie represents -- to people like her -- the continuation of her life here. Democrats represent -- to her -- the end of a way of life and possibly a move out of state.

Joe/lene Sixpack is not dumb and not lazy and they know the score. I have worked with junk food eating, cigarette smoking California “Okies” who can (when they want) talk politics and make the point that every discussion about “what can we do about it?” comes down to the very American awareness that our best leaders seem to end up assassinated.

Joe/lene Sixpack owns a business and talks with suppliers in Oklahoma and Massachusetts who’ve had to raise wholesale prices because of exorbitant cost increases in fuel and shipping costs. They may never have met, they may think each other is probably Republican or Republican Lite (being a business owner and all) and they are on the phone openly agreeing with each other that their business woes are because of BIG BUSINESS RUNNING THE COUNTRY and BIG OIL COMPANIES GOUGING THE PUBLIC WHILE POSTING ALL TIME RECORD PROFITS.

You think these people are too stupid to know they’re being gouged and played and when gas prices go down right before the election they won’t know they’re being massaged and played?

Joe/lene Sixpack knows the score.

The Sixpacks may not be political (aside from community activism affecting their properties) or talk strategy; they may prefer dumb and mean Leno to clever and snarky Letterman and not even know who Jon Stewart IS; they may not have the free time to devote to The Demise Of The Nation as a hobby. But The Sixpacks know what time it is.

Joe/lene Sixpack may drive a big rig and have plenty of stories to tell you about the up close and personal realities of crossing state lines and delivering product under the Dept. of Fatherland Security; trying to maintain self-employment on the road while adhering to MegaLoMart’s New World Order demands on distributors and drivers; dealing with law enforcement on the highways and byways. You think THESE are the people who can’t fathom the implications of last week’s Torture bill that gives more power to the King of America, including the right to decide who should just DISAPPEAR for Whatever Reason?

It’s time to quit blaming Joe/lene Sixpack for the inability and unwillingness of policy wonks and political junkies to call for accountability from our elected officials; to call for an END to their inability and unwillingness to do THEIR jobs and demand accountability -- as The People’s representatives -- from the elected officials they are face to face with.

Joe/lene Sixpack may be further down the political food chain but --Surprise Surprise -- may be more in touch with the realities of life in BushCo’s America than even the well-heeled, highly paid, policy specialists who use “Joe Sixpack” as an excuse to not do their jobs, to not advise their consulting clients to their jobs, to not spur elected officials to do their jobs.

[ThoughtCriminal]

1. Joe SixPack's retirement at 40

I wonder if he has given much thought to healthcare.

[LSK]

68. you missed the Union part

Although 40 is quite a stretch.

[nini]

74. especially if they're making $500 a week

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[omega minimo]

76. I'm sorry-- he said "50" -- my mistake.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. thars rednecks in Cali!?

oh my god. they're EVERYWHERE! :scared:


on edit: SOME of the stuff we are talking about is getting through to them, thank (whatever deity you pray to) in a twisted, O'Liely sort of way.

[omega minimo]

4. Oh yeah-- the whole Center is Very Central

:evilgrin:

Lotsa down home folks here.

[ComerPerro]

10. yeah, from what I understand, its a lot like NY and IL

where the state is overwhelmingly blue, but mostly because the population is densely packed into cities of several million, sometimes encompassing 3,4,5 or more congressional districts.

But once you leave the cities, the rest of the state is kinda mixed, going from moderate blue to downright scary red...

[omega minimo]

11. "Scary red" is where * landed this week

I esp. liked the high school kid on the local news in the McMansion enclave on the sidewalk by the limousine route
wearing shades and a suburban Mohawk
saying
"Yeah I'm so excited that the President is like coming to our town!"


Rad, dude.

[ComerPerro]

14. Be nice to the red voters. They get slang five years later than us Blues

"I am, like, so totally stoked that Bush is coming here! Its da bomb!"

[omega minimo]

18. !LOL!

TUBULAR

[ComerPerro]

19. "Reaganomics!"

(Adult Swim cartoon Robot Chicken had a Ninja Turtles spoof where one of them used "Reaganomics" as a slang word)

[omega minimo]

26. Bananafukkinrama!

(thanks for the primer)!

[OnionPatch]

94. Southern California is pretty conservative, too.

Sadly, except for some of the urban centers, we're pretty red. (Wish I'd known that before I moved here.)

[wtmusic]

163. Are you behind the Orange Curtain? nt

[OnionPatch]

165. No. I'm out by the giant dinosaurs

It's the area along the ten between Redlands and Palm Springs. It's pretty rural. I suppose that's why it's so red.

[wtmusic]

166. Isn't that where "Jesusland" is?

I think that's what it's called...kinda like a fundie amusement park.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Are you kidding?

I was reading the Orange County Sentinel on my vacation a couple of months ago and the editorial section read like any hick newspaper in some hayseed small town in the reddest state in America.

[hedgehog]

56. Yep, the Joads all got defense jobs during the war and stayed.

There warn't nothin for them back in Oklahoma.

[ComerPerro]

3. For people who are so fucking smart, they sure don't know shit

You say :

His parents own the house he’s working on. His mother has told me, “I know you’re liberal but you better hope Arnold wins this time or more businesses are gonna leave California, Arnold SAVED California and if you getta Democrat in there they’re gonna raise taxes... (takes a breath).... and people stayed because of that but if a Democrat gets in there more people are gonna leave and go to Nevada or wherever and move their businesses.”

and

For his parents, it boils down to taxes making it too expensive to do business in California. That’s it. Arnie represents -- to people like her -- the continuation of her life here. Democrats represent -- to her -- the end of a way of life and possibly a move out of state.


Honestly.

Anyone who sincerely belives that load of crap is a pathetic, fucking stupid moron. They may consider themselves educated and informed, and you seem to think they are, but they are educated and informed with lies and misinformation.

[omega minimo]

5. Well. I'm sorry. Geez. Didn't say I agreed with it.

"They may consider themselves educated and informed, and you seem to think they are, but they are educated and informed with lies and misinformation."

Seems you missed the point. This is reality. This is these folks' reality. I'm not trying to justify it, any more than I argue it to their face.

Joe Sixpack talked to me this morning, when I was reflecting on the usefulness of "Joe Sixpack's" simplemindedness as an excuse for folks to fixate on sex rather than Constitutional crimes-- blaming Joe Sicpack for why they HAD to overlook a Unitary Executive Bill and FIXATE on a sex scandal.

All I'm sayin is, don't blame Joe/lene Sixpack.

[ComerPerro]

7. How can you not blame them? They embrace lies and propaganda

and arrogantly consider themselves informed!

Not only is Joe Sixpack stupid, hes dumber than he realizes!

[OzarkDem]

145. Agree, believing GOP propaganda is dumb

particularly when it works against their own best interests. There's no way to rationalize their belief that imaginary "higher taxes"
are hurting business in California but high gas prices aren't?

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[mulsh]

6. they're smart enough to

know when some condescending pseudo liberal is insulting their intelligence. They can easily pick up on that snotty superior attitude and switch to ignore mode in a nano second. honestly, the op has give us a pretty accurate picture there, perhaps we should figure out how to work with in that frame work. or maybe we should just continue to look down on them & send subtly insulting messages to them.

[ComerPerro]

8. or maybe we should admire them for knowing how evil we libs truly are, eh?

I mean, come on.

Why pretend they are something that they obviously are not.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

15. I wouldn't be too quick

to write off and reject that lil subthread.

There's some common truth in the middle there.

I may have made a mistake in setting up an adversarial thread title. That wasn't really the point.

Smart, educated, well-intentioned politically obsessed Democrats quitting using "Joe Sixpack" as an excuse for intellectually, moral and activistically lazy behavior, was.

[Clark2008]

55. What's wrong with what Mulsh said?

It's the truth in regards to what the working class hear.

They CAN pick up on pseduo-liberal, snotty superior attitudes and dimiss them and anything said, thereafter, as being uppity and not worth hearing.

And I've been here for a long time - and have enjoyed, and will continue to enjoy, my stay.

I don't think Mulsh sounded like a Freeper at all - he/she sounds like someone who lives in a red state or county and has a lot of experience in dealing with these people: much like any of us here in the South or mid-West.

This is the way they TRULY are.

[Itchinjim]

13. I am Joe Six Pack...

And A-friggen-men mulsh.

[ComerPerro]

16. So you agree that Democrats will ruin the middle class

want to raise taxes and crush small business, and end the middle class way of life as we know it?

You believe that Ahhnold and the Republicans are the future?

[Itchinjim]

36. I am a unionized blue collar worker,

And believe me,I have first hand experience with the GOP policies that attack the working and middle classes. I also have alot of experience with the condescending, snotty, generalizing,and dare I say, elitist, attitudes shown toward the working and middle classes by more than a few supposedly "populist" Democrats. At one time, the working class was the backbone of the Democratic party, and Democratic policies expanded the middle class, but right around the time of Nixon the Dems started to abandon their working class base,leaving it ripe for exploitation by the GOP. What, honestly, do you know of the working class ComerPerro? Do you drive a truck? Wash dishes? Build houses? Do you work the night shift at a warehouse store? Perhaps you are a landscaper or a fork lift operator down at the lumberyard. Well ComerPerro I've done all these things and there are millions more like me and we are all struggling just to get by. Let me tell you the Democrats have been no big help to us by rolling over on just about every anti-union,anti-worker policy the GOP has thrown out there in the last 30 years. And how about NAFTA? CAFTA? It is no coincidence that we, yes, WE the Democrats started losing elections after our leaders abandoned the working class. The Democrats handed "Joe SixPack" to the GOP on a silver platter and "Joe" and the Democrats have been paying for it ever since.

[Beelzebud]

37. *applauds* Well said!

Joe Six-Pack here too..

[omega minimo]

38. Great post. Thank you.

One of the things I noticed in DUers talking about the Foley matter (and annoyed at suggestions that it was a distraction) was a repeated justification that Foley was a Big Deal because Joe 6pack was too stupid to unnerstan something like "Habeas Corpus." (In the OP I wonder if big rig drivers may give more thought to the Bill of Rights on a daily basis than cubicle jockeys....).

It makes me ask: "Who are we talking about? Anyone we know? Anyone on DU? Why do people always think someone ELSE is the idiot who doesn't care about hard issues? Is this generic dummy just an excuse for people to not face the hard stories, try to communicate them in basic terms and try to get our elected representatives to deal with those issues?

*

IMHO it's an open secret in 6pack Land that corporate power running the country is THE problem. Dems and many DUers don't seem to get that Joe 6pack already gets it. It's not RADICAL to say it. It's a mistake not to. What do you think?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

75. That's not the intention. Joe Sixpack is on DU too, right?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sadiesworld]

42. Thank-you.

:applause:

[Balbus]

44. Ouch!!

Nice smackdown.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[hedgehog]

59. Which party is he supporting when "he is stupid enough to support

and vote for a party that does nothing for him"? Where were the Democrats on NAFTA and CAFTA? Where have they been on an increased minimum wage, protection of Social Security, universal health care, tuition aid for college and technical school, etc.? Even when we were on the right side, we were so quiet about it that the Republican noise machine dominated the stage with smoke and mirrors. If we go along with the Republicans most of the time and fail to take a clear stand the rest of the time, why should Joe Sixpack pay any attention to us?

If Joe Sixpack sees what Foley attempted to do to the pages as shorthand for what the Republicans are doing to the country, more power to Joe Sixpack!

[ComerPerro]

61. exactly my point.

He attacks Dems, and says that Joe Sixpack is really smart because he knows that Dems don't do shit for regular folk.

And he agrees that Democrats don't do anything to help the working class.


Then he tells me, quite prouldy, that he has been supporting Dems forever.


Not very smart, if you ask me.

[hedgehog]

63. It's getting to be a long day for me and I'm losing track of the arguement

Maybe we're all saying variations on the same theme - Joe Sixpack either doesn't know that the Democrats are on his side and/or the Democrats have come down on the wrong side on specific issues (ex. NAFTA) so tht we can't say we're on his side and/or we've been such wimps (ex. Social Security, health care) that it doesn't matter if we're on his side.

[ComerPerro]

66. we usually are

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. Not smart at all

[guinivere]

91. Bravo, Itchinjim.

Very well said.

:applause:



Proud 3rd generation blue collar worker here.

[sufrommich]

96. Great post!!! eom.

[OnionPatch]

97. Very good points.

nt

[OzarkDem]

148. The only place the elitist liberals exist

is in the imagination of the right wing radio talk show hosts. Sort of like all the hippies who beat up the returning vets.

Sorry, but your talking points are stale standard right wing fare.

[patrick t. cakes]

168. i am a currently layed off electrician

local 347

and i want to say great rant:rant:


you nailed it. democrats handed joe six pack to the gop and thats why the union is fucking dying.

[omega minimo]

23. Joe/lene Sixpack is on DU

:toast:

[OzarkDem]

147. Well hopefully they're learning something

or are they the trolls?

[trekbiker]

102. many of my friends are "Joe Sixpacks"...

they are in the same union as me. And most of them listen to Limbaugh and Hannity and suck in all thier fascist spew... the stupid Fucks will vote against their own best interests EVERY TIME... fear, bigotry and prejudice rule thier lives.. as long as we dont discuss politics, sexuality or race, I get along just fine with them

[WI_DEM]

123. makes you wonder who all of these union voters who vote democratic are?

[OzarkDem]

146. You can't convince those who are so easily duped

No one is condescending to them except the right wing talk show hosts they worship.

BTW, Welcome to DU!

[Le Taz Hot]

151. Ba da bing!

THANK you!!!!

LTH
Fresno, CA

[BlueEyedSon]

88. Yup, They's drunk the tax-flavored kool-aid.

[Subdivisions]

12. I'm an unofficially retired construction worker and I can tell you

this. Joe Sixpack is a dumb mother fucker.

Now, Joe Citizen knows a bit more about what's going on. Joe Citizen gives a shit and keeps and eye on things and votes while Joe Sixpack is too busy scratchin' his nuts while watching wall to wall sports and blasting squirrels out of the trees just for the fun of it.

[ComerPerro]

17. Agree

[porkrind]

108. Agree

:banghead:

[omega minimo]

22. OIC. Well thank you for the "framing" of the various Joes

...and maybe they're all Assholes....... I dunno. Could be.

One thing's for sure-- Joe Sixpack/Citizen/Dudette is HERE, is US and is a LAME excuse for those up the political food chain who don't wanna take responsibility for their assumptions and their actions.

:hi:

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. !

:spray:

[corkhead]

87. you've obviously met my neighbors

:7

[trekbiker]

103. damn... you nailed it... your post cracked me up

[Just Me]

20. NO WHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS THE NEOCONS.

I can say that, truthfully and with pure heartedness.

[ComerPerro]

21. If you're saying that the Conservatives think JoeSixpack is stupid

I completely agree.

And, I might add, Conservatives have found that treating people like they are idiots can lead to political success if you feed them the right kind of lies

[omega minimo]

24. Very intriguiing. You have pointed up exactly the core of the dilemma

"Conservatives have found that treating people like they are idiots can lead to political success if you feed them the right kind of lies"

This is the core of the moral dliemma........... is that who we wanna be?

This thread is calling for the end of using "Joe Sixpack" as an excuse for ______ laziness.

[ComerPerro]

25. Some of them might be too far gone

[omega minimo]

27. Some of who, what?

[ComerPerro]

28. yeah, that wasn't very clear, was it

Some of the Joe Sixpacks might be too invested in GOP lies to be saved.

And, I don't really agree with the premise of your Post, that Joe Sixpack is being used as a scapegoat.

I say that "he" is an enabler of fascists, and I don't think he is a victim for choosing to listen to and believe every word Rush Limbaugh says for twelve years.

He chose to buy into that propaganda, and I consider anyone who votes for Conservatives to be just as guilty as they are.

[omega minimo]

29. "He" is here

"And, I don't really agree with the premise of your Post, that Joe Sixpack is being used as a scapegoat."

And we will take you on :toast:

[hfojvt]

31. How hugh is Limbaugh?

I do not think he is that big. I think that Joe Sixpack is probably getting more from ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, and CNN than he is from Limbaugh.

Bob Somerby, who I just read before coming to DU, seemed to say similar things. Should we blame Joe Sixpack for the way the media ignores substance in order to focus on sex? Is public demand driving these stories, or is a corporate agenda and the press corps lake of competence and substance pushing this on a disgusted public?

"SON OF CONDIT: The American public got a bad deal with the timing of the Mark Foley story. Absent this story, the press/pundit corps would now be discussing the contents of the new Woodward book. Instead, American pundits are like pigs in mud, happier than they’ve been since 2001. They have a sex story to talk about, endlessly! Mark Foley has become Son of Condit.

What happens when the press corps is handed a sex tale to dote on? The corps pretends that it means a great deal—although, almost always, it doesn’t.

After all, Dennis Hastert has refused to provide oversight of the ongoing war in Iraq. Beyond that, he has presided over the machinations known as the K Street Project, openly enriching himself in the process. But what “misconduct” may cost him his job? The fact that he may have failed to provide oversight in a much less serious matter, in a way that is much less clear cut. The Foley matter is much less serious than the war in Iraq or the “culture of corruption.” But there is a major difference, of course—the Foley matter involves seamy sex. So the pundit corps has snapped to attention—and Democrats have already run ads saying that “children” have somehow been “molested.”

A word about the eternal failure of us Democrats and liberals to frame the terms of our public debates:

The Foley story could have been a way to illustrate a powerful problem. That problem? The defiant refusal of the GOP Congress to enact its oversight responsibilities. But Dems have failed to lay the groundwork for that narrative, in two major ways."

http://www.dailyhowler.com/

[omega minimo]

32. There it is

"Is public demand driving these stories, or is a corporate agenda and the press corps lake of competence and substance pushing this on a disgusted public?"

"Should we blame Joe Sixpack for the way the media ignores substance in order to focus on sex?"




"But what “misconduct” may cost him his job?"

It's embarrassing watching Dems bark about Foley and call for INVESTIGATION into this, when they haven't done for SO MANY Bushco debacles.


Thanks for this, hfojvt. :spray: I was gonna let the thread drop, cuz I may have painted the two characters here as really dumb (?).
However, as you point out, others are on the same track.................

:hi:

[omega minimo]

30. DON'T BLAME FOLEY ON JOE SIXPACK

:hi:

[oc2002]

33. Taxes is the #1 bane of democrats.

Is it their fault. Maybe, they should think about joe 6-pack home owners that pay lots of taxes, property taxes and such and get mostly nothing in return. Where as there are people that do nothing and get tons of 'social services'. True or not, that is what they see, and they hate it because it is unfair to them.

They see Arnold as thier friend, although he may realy be the freind of the rich more than thiers, the taxes any democrat proposes should be on the mega rich, and big busnesess. that is how they should frame the tax issue.

[omega minimo]

34. Dems = "Tax and Spend" Repugs = "Spend and Spend"

"Taxes is the #1 bane of democrats. Is it their fault."

Well part of it isn't their fault.... the bumpersticker "Tax and Spend" was slapped on their foreheads by the pre-Rovian mindfuckers of the "Republican Devolution."

Democrats are more honest about the need for taxes. Republicans are sticking the bill on future taxpayers-- with interest.

"....the taxes any democrat proposes should be on the mega rich, and big busnesess. that is how they should frame the tax issue."


Yes, that is what Angelides has done in his campaign for CA Gov., challenging corporate welfare and calling for closing loophole$$$$$. 

[ComerPerro]

41. that IS how they frame it. Why are so many people here

spreading and encouraging GOP propaganda?

[omega minimo]

35. Joe/lene Sixpack may be more likely to have family/friends in the military

How do they feel about Bush's war?

[leftofthedial]

43. Murkans are gullible, ignorant and pretty damned stupid

They have to be harmed directly to even wake up. Even then, they usually don't understand what happened and will place the blame on whomever the first white male in a business suit tells them to. They believe the illusion and propaganda about America even when it blatantly flies in the face of reality.

I live in a country that elected Nixon twice, raygun twice, george the first AND george the lesser twice. (I use the word "elected" advisedly, since I'm beginning to believe that elections have been rigged in Murka for a long, long time.

[omega minimo]

48. Maybe so-- but we talk in the abstract about people and base

strategy on them, without knowing WHO or WHAT specifically we're talking about. Some of those assumptions may not be valid.

[sufrommich]

98. Do us all a favor

and don't do any door-to-door canvassing for the Dems during the elections.O.K.?

[Common Sense Party]

126. No kidding. The basic gist I'm gleaning from this and many, many

other threads I've read on DU is this:

* Many Americans are braindead "sheeple" if they don't vote Democratic
* Joe Sixpack is an idiot because he doesn't vote Democratic
* Many Americans are too stupid to vote Democratic

The trouble is, they will keep voting Republican--or not voting at all--if we continue to call them stupid, mindless, brainwashed sheeple.

I'm not sure condescension and vilification are our surest road to victory.

[sufrommich]

135. But why waste

your beautiful mind on the proles?:sarcasm:

[Common Sense Party]

136. "Proles"!!! BWAHAHAHA! That should be in every campaign

ad this election.

"Get up off the couch, you braindead proles, and vote for US! What are you, stupid?"

[sufrommich]

137. No worse

than some of the other suggestions being thrown around.:D

[NuttyFluffers]

167. i honestly think that would be a winning campaign.

no. really. i'm dead serious. i honestly believe that would be a winning campaign. it would embody cruel bully tactics and an entitled sense of machismo that a strange segment of humanity laps up like pudding.

i remember a good friend and coworker who ran his cutesy campaign for school president with the platform that he was running to be "school dictator." his platform was to heap large amounts of abuses and injustices upon the people regularly and at his whim. his slogan was, "Mister (XYZ) for Dictator. Because You Deserve a Dictator!" people loved it, partly because it was hilarious, but also partly because he sounded tough, and because they wanted to see something, anything done through school politics. he won resoundingly. the school administration revoked his success and gave the election to the runner-up. but it's quite illustrative of the nature of desperation and mob mentality.

you'll be surprised how well abuse works in rallying people. there's a reason why conservative politics works and it's because they know how to galvanize the mob to their bidding very well. never underestimate the capacity to invoke Stockholm Syndrome to political success.

[trekbiker]

105. exactly.. the only thing seperating us and 1930's Nazi

Germany is our Constitution. We have 40 to 50% of our population perfectly willing to follow our so-called leaders straight into Fascist Hell.. Joe Sixpack is nothing more than a "good German" ruled by fear and bigotry

[Hidden Stillness]

47. Wonderful Message!

Hi, omega minimo; wonderful thread. As you once told me, "Your posts just keep getting better." Very perceptive and real, and you know that "these people" are not stereotypes, but are totally complicated individuals with different life experiences. I also am "the fundy" (asshole atheists who do not even distinguish between a real Christian and a fake archconservative dressed up as one, because they hate them all), "the Heartland hypocrite/bigot/vote against their own interests for Bush, etc., etc.," (I am from the Midwest, which apparently is a sin among some assholes), etc. Over a year ago, something like that, I remember a thread called something like, "Let's Capture the Heartland!" about winning Midwest votes, and it became the most unbelievable, stupid bashing of my area, from the most ignorant "superiors," about how "hateful" and "bigoted" the "anti-gay fundies there" are, how "we" don't really want them at all, but need them, how do you appeal to "those people" and do you even want to, because presumably, you will not be "pure" anymore, etc. They always assume we are conservative, then do not even address the issues which affect us.

I really like somebody like Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa, one of the best in the Senate. Harkin seems so bland, grey, ordinary, friendly and polite, yet if you listen, Harkin is one of the most left-wing, populist, almost socialist, for-the-people, feminist, for mental health and disability causes--a total, sterling gem; a near-perfect voting record. This is what Midwesterners so often are; Representative David Obey of Wisconsin is another: a fabulous, exciting firebrand, who will stand up, fight, tell Republicans and corporate rich people where to go, and who comes from yet another Midwestern radical/left-wing perspective and background. Some of them harkened back to Robert LaFollette, others to Hubert Humphrey and the Farmer-Labor Party, etc. Midwesterners are as left-wing as the "two coasts" ilk, but we generally do not waste time on "theater/pretending to be turtles for the big parade" shit. I am also like that--appear dull, be polite and articulate, and rip the shit out of these God-damned Republican devils.

There are, as you mentioned, a whole world full of very smart people, who nonetheless, will not understand anything you are talking about, if you talk about banking and stocks, tax schemes and conspiratorial buying-and-selling cartels. I don't either sometimes, which is why I am so offended by jargon rather than explanations, adult to adult. It is not your experience, and being so, you are not "stupid," but unrelated to that world. If you want to know how intelligent these very same people can be, ask them about things they care about, and listen to the complexity. I have listened to very complex explanations of how a sports team may be affected by the possible trade of a player, from statistical measures we will gain or lose, and which were important, to personal relationships and how it will affect the cameraderie in the locker room, possible resentments, whether the traded player will now go on a tear against us and maybe improve with the change of scenery, how it may affect the salary cap, how it may affect the larger game-plan the coaches and management have for the team, whether or not we have other players who will now play better than they have up to now because they will get more playing time, etc., etc. Ask people about their kids in school, and hear the difference between grades that are low because the kid is not trying, or not interested, or because the teacher or subject is boring; they know them all. When people are interested and care, their attention and thought is more sustained, and gets further.

I hate this "Joe Six Pack" routine, (which I call "Johnny Beer-Gut" just to show even more how offensive and insulting it is), because it has all the sound and appearance of a sleazy commercial ad campaign. Like when you get home and play back the messages on your phone answering machine, and find some "Hey Guys--Great news. Been tryin'a call ya, but I guess yer out, so I'll just tell ya the great news. I kin now get yoo a great offer on a..." click. 'Bye. Rich, self-satisfied consultants who live, LIVE, in the corporate world, where they actually do not talk unless they "spin," always approach us as if we are, 1) the problem, and as if, 2) they don't like us and want to leave. Even we "sheeple/peons" can sense it.

Again, I loved your whole post because you get the idea--first, that they do have a great deal of knowledge and intelligence, just not about things you (or I) may know or care about, and two, even when they are totally wrong, that you can talk to them, even like them, rather than run away and "frame" (which I know you also hate). It may not work, but it may. Also, as always, not all the "enemies" are in the other camp; some of them are right here. I notice you have a male on your thread here, who seriously "warns" against "conservatives" and who has the nerve to tell us all who gets to be a Democrat and who does not. This is the same one who, with yet another dreary group of hostile males, jumped onto a thread where a woman dared to refer to male bigotry, (donsu's "latest in mens' war against women" about the murder of an Afghan women's rights fighter, by the Taliban). After attacking the thread-starter and others, this poster then attacked me when I informed them that it was a war on us, with examples. First, I got the "You know, lots of men fight for women's rights, but people like you sometimes make us wonder why we bother" psychotic fantasy--(oh, yeah, that was YOU out there...). Then when I replied that that was bigotry, and that they have to accept that women have our own perspective and will not just "cheer them on," etc., that it was hypocrisy, and did not make sense to claim that you will "stop having your entire philosophy 'because' a woman did not only cheer you and all that you do?" I then got this hugely informative and helpful reply:
Title: "get over yourself"
Message: "you have the audacity to insult ALL men, everywhere, and then wonder why people get pissed at you or take offense?"
Messages like this, (after another male attacked women for equating male bigotry with the Taliban, then ended by comparing women and feminism to the Taliban! So males can't be compared to ther Taliban, but women can!), then got the thread locked. It reminds you yet again, especially after the recent "male bigots exposed" threads here lately, that there are not "good" groups and "bad" groups, but sometimes the worst obstruction is right among you, pretending to be "educating the inferior women," or "being fair" (when they never criticize male bigotry), for example. I loved the ending of your message, too, where you point to a new direction, and mention the total failure of the "educated," higher-income computer types and those who are more connected to the rich world of corporate pseudo-"politics" to accomplish anything resembling a Democratic goal. It's for God-damned sure that the underpaid, 40-60-80 hours-a-week workers who can't even pay their bills anymore, cannot.

Things will be a lot better off, when all the privileged groups, no matter what they are, stop lecturing and start listening and learning.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

99. "better off, when..privileged groups..stop lecturing and start listening"

Glad you could make it, HS. :hi:

"Things will be a lot better off, when all the privileged groups, no matter what they are, stop lecturing and start listening and learning."
:wow:

Stop lecturing?!!
Start listening?!!
Learn something?!!

YOU RADICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"I really like somebody like Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa, one of the best in the Senate. Harkin seems so bland, grey, ordinary, friendly and polite, yet if you listen, Harkin is one of the most left-wing, populist, almost socialist, for-the-people, feminist, for mental health and disability causes--a total, sterling gem; a near-perfect voting record. This is what Midwesterners so often are; Representative David Obey of Wisconsin is another: a fabulous, exciting firebrand, who will stand up, fight, tell Republicans and corporate rich people where to go, and who comes from yet another Midwestern radical/left-wing perspective and background."

This is the true and lasting American tradition. Far more effective than using slick, cynical marketing ploys and viewing "everyman" as a "sucker born every minute." (As in Bob Roberts, the homespun and folksy is used by the hucksters too)

And there's the trap. If that is the attitude and the technique transmitted by the latest fad guru of mental marketing; and if we adopt it to use on each other and "the public" and "the voters" and "the sheeple" then haven't we seperated ourselves from the sheeple herd? Set ourselves apart and above-- cynical and superior and still not succeeding? :spray:

I don't buy it and you don't either, because it depends on thinking that EVERYONE ELSE is a stupid sucker.

So I had to ask: Who are we really talking about here? The thread shows that there are various meanings attributed to "Joe Sixpack" but during the past week it was shorthand for the American public too dumb, distracted and media-addicted to comprehend anything other than the Foley scandal.

How can we sit here and blame "Joe Sixpack" for our own unwillingness to face reality? By convincing ourselves that Joe Sixpack is detached from reality? By convincing ourselves that Joe Sixpack is not some of us?

In some of the threads on the subject I was accused of being the elitist :rofl:

I know these are the times we live in and the techniques people are being convinced they have to use-- but take away the gimmicks and the detached cynicsm and you're left with the person-- the voter who will respond to the leader who can communicate effectively like examples you gave.

"I loved the ending of your message, too, where you point to a new direction, and mention the total failure of the "educated," higher-income computer types and those who are more connected to the rich world of corporate pseudo-"politics" to accomplish anything resembling a Democratic goal."

I'm glad you liked that (not sure if I muddled the point a bit at the end there) and saw a point to a "new direction." I didn't like seeing "Joe Sixpack's" legendary stupidity being used as an excuse to fixate on Foleygate at the expense of MAJOR news events of the week. "Joe Sixpack's" braindeadness was used as an excuse to push for Congress Dems to blast on Foley and demand investigations of THAT where they have not done on so MANY other things. (Oh and the fact that "Joe Sixpack" doesn't care about that laundry list of treasonable offenses is used as an excuse to focus on S-E-X, the "only thing" that will get through to him).

Who is Joe Sixpack? Why is everyone ELSE always the sucker, the idiot, the dupe. Anyone we know? Anyone who's HERE?

We have to choose. Are we superior and cynical and using the same shitty tricks that Repuglicans have perfected over the past 30 years? Driving our nation into a ditch and charging admission to watch it. "Gee the public is so stupified that if we could just learn how to dupe people the way the Repuglyans do, WE'D HAVE IT MADE!!!!!!!!!" :woohoo:

At what cost? And does it work? You and me and Joe Sixpack think the "common wo/man" can smell that shit a mile away.

Did you see the DVD of the Conyer's Basement Hearings on the Downing Street Minutes? Sitting on either side of (then unknown) Cindy Sheehan, Joe Wilson and Ray McGovern were understatedly AMAZING in their ability to "appear dull, be polite and articulate, and rip the shit out of these God-damned Republican devils."

[blindpig]

52. Excellent

That's what I call a reality check.

I think it's fair to say that a large portion of blue collar folk don't so much vote for Republicans as they vote against Democrats. They vote against Democrats because the party has abandoned them for the burbs. Honestly, what has the Democratic Party done FOR them lately? Did the Dems do anything as the good jobs went away? Nada, nichts, zilch, they aided and abetted while mouthing anti-democratic crap about economics trumping politic(the will of the people). And where the hell is the health care that every industrial nation has, that the Iraqis have? Don't even mention that dead in the water bad joke that Hillary penned for her insurance industry buds. And speaking of Iraq this war that by and large was enthusiasticly supported by much of the party, this thing which kills and maims their children, only now to hear muttered bullshit about a mistake? If many of us knew what was going down from the gitgo then why didn't these supposedly informed individuals? The blue collar hasn't left the Democratic Party, the party has left them. If working folks are willing to accept the slogans and smoke that the Republicans woo them with perhaps it is because they've been burned. And if now they are starting to see that they've been sold a bill of goods by the so-called responsible Party is it so surprising that they are not running with open arms to the cheat which burned them before?

[ComerPerro]

53. good. lets perpetuate that lie and we can all vote Republican

if I want to read anti-Dem propaganda, I will go to Free Republic.

[blindpig]

57. So, please tell me

What has the Democratic Party done for working people since it abandoned the New Deal?

[ComerPerro]

60. Considering Republicans have been attacking working people

since the 1980s, I'd say a whole hell of a lot.

Gotta stop the attacks on working people before we can do much to help them.


Please tell me, when was the last time the Democratic party had the uncontested power that Republicans enjoy now?

[blindpig]

64. That's not answering the question.

As for the rest, you don't need uncontested power to show forceful opposition, to filibuster. You don't need uncontested power suggest meaningful alternatives. You don't go along to get along, call it what you will, that's collusion.

For that matter, why should power be uncontested? Danger in that, hubris at the least, as current events clearly display.

[ComerPerro]

67. I am not saying we need uncontested power

I am just saying that is the only way we will actually to ever get any meaningful legislation through.

Granted, the problem with Dems is that they won't fight as hard for working stiffs as Republicans fight for the rich and corporate greed. But its hard to make a meaningful difference in people's lives when you can't even get legislation out of committee.

[blindpig]

69. Again...

Can you show where an effort has really been made? Where are the filibusters? Letting the fear of being called obstructionists by the opposition trump doing what's right hardly serves the people's interest. Taking lame, highly questionable "evidence" at face value in the matter of war is hardly serving the people's interest. Muttering about the so-called inevitability of globalization is a slap in the face to the laid off worker, particularly coming from the so-called party of working people.

That powder that has supposedly been kept dry is moldy and stinky, couldn't fry a fly.

edit for tense

[ComerPerro]

70. So we shut down the Senate, get (rightfully) called obstructionists

and get voted out in droves.

Then what?

[blindpig]

72. A does not necessarily lead to B

That's buying into another Republican meme. Do you think the working class doesn't appreciate being represent by people with guts?. Don't you think they would take exception to cowards?

[ComerPerro]

73. but we don't do anything, remember?

all we do is fillibuster and shut down legislation.

Then Republicans can campaign all they want about all the progressive things they want to do, and how they want to help the working class, but Dems won't let them.

We won't be able to get any kind of message out when we have reputation for doing nothing and blocking helpful legislation.

[blindpig]

77. That's what opposition does.

It fights the party in power, it doesn't rubberstamp it. Keeping a scumbag off of the Supreme Court is a positive thing. Opposing an immoral war is positive.

Not accepting Republican framing is the beginning of wisdom.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blindpig]

82. Nothing left but insults, eh?

Yes, that's what I'd expect from upright, moral people.

If the "something" that does get done is wrong, what good is that? Was it better to have a war than not have it?

Think I'll go have my sixpack now.

[ComerPerro]

84. You seem to be completely disconnected from reality

Imagine, if you will, a Senator who came to DC and fillibustered everything. Every single action.

He would be branded a hack and thrown out of the Senate. And he would take his party down with him.

You are so caught up in your ideals and rhetoric that you seem to have forgotten how the political process works.


No one is pure enough for you, are they?

[omega minimo]

86. Just stop this hassling

[omega minimo]

80. A key point::

"Muttering about the so-called inevitability of globalization is a slap in the face to the laid off worker, particularly coming from the so-called party of working people."


And the valid criticisms you raise are connected to the "open secret" I suggested Joe 6Pack is perhaps MORE able to acknowledge than some other Democrats: corporate rule is the problem.

Usedta be called "monopolies."

[The Doctor.]

113. Funny how you lambaste the party in the minority...

the one without the power to prevent the 'violations' you so heatedly point out.

Have they done everything they could have?

No.

But so long as people like yourself keep suggesting that they are 'just as responsible' for all the transgressions we have endured, then we are assured that this country will fall divided.

(don't think that I do not appreciate your outrage, but it does little good at this stage.)

[Armstead]

54. You are absolutely correct in terms of a loss of meaning in politics

Politics became irrelevant to too many people like Joe as it stopped addressing their real-life everyday concerns and worries and goals. And when the GOP Corporate Elite was able to twist the basic choices.

Instead of the REAL Core Issue of Distribution of Wealth and Power, politics has become a game of Weapons of Mass Distraction polluted by issues that have taken the focus away from what is really important to everyone....And misleading GOP crap like the belief that shifting the tax burden from the Upper Class to the Middle Class is lowering everyone's taxes.

The only way to restore real politics is to focus like a laser beam on the issues that really matter. I would suspect there would be much more agreement if the distribution of Wealth and Power were the issues. And it would benefit Democrats if they would take a clear undiluted stand on the side of The People versus the Powerful.

[omega minimo]

101. Sounds good, Armstead

"I would suspect there would be much more agreement if the distribution of Wealth and Power were the issues. And it would benefit Democrats if they would take a clear undiluted stand on the side of The People versus the Powerful."


How can we get there?

[Armstead]

109. Easy. Democrats can start by applying some common sense.

There are certain liberal/progressive principles that would get to the heart of the issues that affect the Average American, if Democrats got off the corporate teat and stood for the majority of Americans again. They're not utopian. Rather they are a return to the common sense balance that existed not very long ago. (Within my own lifetime.)

Actually, these are not so much "left" ideas as they are basic to the problems you raised regarding your neighbors. Democrats ought to start represednting the interest of the majority, by dealing with certain basic policies and values. A few examples:

Monopolization of industries is no good for anybody except the monopolists. We have to use regulation to begin to restore a truly competative free-enterprise econmomy.

The minimum wage in 2006 should be the equivalent to the minimum wage in 1969 in 2006 dollars.

The American Middle Class will be destroyed if forced to compete for jobs on a "level playing field" with the poor populations of the poorest nations. A race to the bottom based on exploitive sweatshops and serf-like conditions imposed by multinational corporations doesn't help the poor in otehr nations either.

Having a healthcare system that behaves like any other industry is dangerous to the health and pocketbooks of Americans.

Privitization and outsourcing of all public services and resources is a giant scam. The public infrastructure exists for a reason. It provides essential services to the population that the private sector is unwilling or unable to provide on an affordable basis.

Etc.

[omega minimo]

124. The steps you have itemized.........

"Monopolization of industries is no good for anybody except the monopolists. We have to use regulation to begin to restore a truly competative free-enterprise econmomy.
The minimum wage in 2006 should be the equivalent to the minimum wage in 1969 in 2006 dollars.
The American Middle Class will be destroyed if forced to compete for jobs on a "level playing field" with the poor populations of the poorest nations. A race to the bottom based on exploitive sweatshops and serf-like conditions imposed by multinational corporations doesn't help the poor in otehr nations either.
Having a healthcare system that behaves like any other industry is dangerous to the health and pocketbooks of Americans.
Privitization and outsourcing of all public services and resources is a giant scam. The public infrastructure exists for a reason. It provides essential services to the population that the private sector is unwilling or unable to provide on an affordable basis."

.....aren't much use if we as a people, as a Party, don't acknowledge that all of that has been un/done systematically, intentionally and by whom.....

"Politics became irrelevant to too many people like Joe as it stopped addressing their real-life everyday concerns and worries and goals. And when the GOP Corporate Elite was able to twist the basic choices.....And it would benefit Democrats if they would take a clear undiluted stand on the side of The People versus the Powerful."

...... and the fact that "by whom" includes some of the "DEM Corporate Elite" in charge of our representation on the Hill and in the Party.

If WE don't take that "clear undiluted stand on the side of The People versus the Powerful," nothing will change. And if we do, Joe Sixpack will join us. That is the fatal mistake too many Dems make. Thinking "Joe Sixpack" can't handle the truth. Patronizing, compromising, equivocating. Using "Joe Sixpack" as an excuse for NOT demanding that Congress Dems "take a clear undiluted stand" on any number of Bushco. Constitutional violations, Using "Joe Sixpack" as an excuse for applauding Congress Dems for taking "a clear undiluted stand" on how Foley likes his pages bent.

If Democrats are chicken and/or compromised, it's time to quit blaming "Joe Sixpack."



Thom Hartmann, Bernie Sanders and ________? do a good job addressing this. Byron Dorgan has come out strong with "Take This Job And Ship It" and some powerful TV interviews.

[Armstead]

156. I totally agree

".....aren't much use if we as a people, as a Party, don't acknowledge that all of that has been un/done systematically, intentionally and by whom....."

"..... and the fact that "by whom" includes some of the "DEM Corporate Elite" in charge of our representation on the Hill and in the Party."



Absolutely to all of the above.

Regarding: "If Democrats are chicken and/or compromised, it's time to quit blaming "Joe Sixpack."

I think sometimes we blame Joe Sixpack because of sheer frustration that too many people either accept or support too much crap. I'll admit that I feel that way at times. In 2004 it was already obvious that people had been lied into a war that turned into a massive failure. And so many otrehr things had obviously gone wrong that Bush and the GOP should have been run out of town in that Election.

The truth is obviously more complicated. It's frankly a collective failure of the entire nation that they have been allowed to get away with so much for so long. It's a failure by Joe Sixpack and by us.

But the solution isn't Rocket Science. Our side simply has to tell the truth of Common sense and Common Decency, and stop trying to water it down. When we do that, we will win over a lot more people, and the system can change.

[Swamp Rat]

58. very

But working class and middle class Americans are not - many are just less informed than the politically savvy.

Maybe we have different definitions of the term “Joe Sixpack?” To me, the term implies someone who drinks a lot of alcohol, drives their gas-guzzling pick up to NASCAR events, beats their wife and kids, listens to Rush Limpballs et al on hate radio, and calls folks who think for themselves "liberal commie pinkos." :shrug:

[omega minimo]

81. Good point, Swampy

It's like trying to define "centrist" :wow:

:hi:


I think of Joe Sixpack as down to earth, working class, basic but not dumb (not necessarily as dysfunctional as your image)

[Swamp Rat]

85. Ok, I'll agree to your definition of "Joe Sixpack,"

and refer to mine as "Bubba Twelvepack." :D ... unless you can think of a better one. ;)

[ourbluenation]

65. Yes they are STOOPID. They keep voting against their interests...

when they vote for the GOP. Sorry. But there it is.

[ourbluenation]

78. but...I will never give up on them. ever.

[Spinoza]

89. You will.......

'never give up on them. ever'?

Uhhh, with all due respect isn't that just a little.........condescending? A little patronizing? What if the poor deluded fools, who need to be treated like children because they are unable to recognize their own interests, give up on........you?

[ourbluenation]

110. huh? Give up on me? I don't belive they "have" me to give up on.

The fact is that there are lots of people who vote against their best interests....a ton of them. And some of the ones I come in contact with are so stubborn and ignorant it's shocking. Even though we all know rethugs don't give a rip about joe six pack, that all they really want are their votes by getting them all charged up on abortion and other wedge issues, I will never, for example, stop reminding them that the REAL way you keep abortions down is to fund access to birth control and knowledge. And the way you do that is to vote for democrats. I get "fiscal conservatives". My family is filled with them. They don't give a crap about gay marriage, etc, they just hate paying taxes. But I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about working class people like myself who won't vote for a democrat just because. That's stupid. It is. But when you dig deeper and challenge them, sometimes every once in a while, you find a person who realizes that they have way more in common with the real party of the people then the rich corporate whores who run their party.

By the way - my delivery, as it were, is never patronizing or condescending. I listen more than anything else. But thanks for making that assumption.

[spoony]

111. If not giving up on

persuading people that Democrats will do a better job for them is condescension, then I guess Dems better stop running political ads and no one should campaign at all.

It isn't insulting someone's intelligence to present them with facts and ideas they may not be familiar with, in the hopes that it will get them to change their minds and hop on board.

[Roy]

71. I think people are too tough on Jo Sixpack.....

There is a difference between stupid and uninformed. To be informed they must get information. The problem is the media, those who we depend on to inform us actually deceive us by reporting the complete opposite of what's going on, overly reporting the irrelevant, clouding important issues, or not reporting at all.

[KansDem]

83. "...more people are gonna leave ... and move their businesses."

I know you’re liberal but you better hope Arnold wins this time or more businesses are gonna leave California, Arnold SAVED California and if you getta Democrat in there they’re gonna raise taxes... (takes a breath).... and people stayed because of that but if a Democrat gets in there more people are gonna leave and go to Nevada or wherever and move their businesses.

My sister has been aping this mantra in every California election since Prop. 13. Back then it was "if we don't get property tax relief, we'll have to leave California." Well, Prop. 13 passed, and guess what? She and her husband bought a second home in Big Bear Lake! The called it their "cabin," but I went there once and it was a small home. So, I surmised, bring property tax relief to the residents of California who are soooo afraid they'll have to move, and voila...they buy a second home! And silly me...I thought they were going to have to leave since they'll wouldn't be able to afford their first home. :silly:

Her latest mantra is "Those liberals in northern California are scaring business away...!" Don't know who she'll vote for but won't be surprised if it's Arnold.

[DaveJ]

92. Good point... so let them leave....

They sound a bit overconfident if they believe anyone cares if they leave. Regarding businesses staying or going, I'm sure California will survive either way. Maybe with some of the rich f*cks gone people will not have to work all of the disgusting jobs raking their leaves and wiping their asses.

[BlueEyedSon]

90. So it all comes down to PRICING. How much extra (in taxes, say)

would you be willing to spend to have:

all your constitutional rights intact

a country that is not the scourge of the rest of the world

a country that is solvent

etc

[omega minimo]

100. Good point. Since our taxes already pay for

our representation in Congress, let's make a list of Democrats who make priorities of:

our constitutional rights

the country's standing with the rest of the world

the country's solvency

:patriot:

(btw, the first on your list was the big event last week that some on DU were adamant that Joe Sixpack couldn't comprehend or bother to care about)

[BlueEyedSon]

115. My point is that they are foolish if they care about their taxes MORE

[demgurl]

93. So my question, to you, is how long did it take you....

to go to your house and print up the charts showing the debt run up by Republican Presidents versus Democratic Presidents? What did they say when they saw it? Did you explain to them how many social programs benefited citizens under Clinton and how * has seen fit to cut anything he can while running up more and more debt? Did you have to explain that this means HUGH tax increases in all of our futures or did Joe Sixpack connect the dots by themselves?

Anyone who is truly smart will have an open mind and sit there and listen to this kind of information and see that the rethugs do nothing but tell people to bend over. (and they do not even have the common decency to use lube)

Educated people can put these things together and do not just buy into everything told to them.

I went out to lunch with someone I consider quite smart despite the fact that they are Republican. They used to be a school teacher, so they were a professional. I went over the proof of the PNAC asking Clinton to remove Saddam. Governor Bush telling Mickey H, in an interview, that he wanted to finish the job his dad didn't in Iraq. I connected all the dots with the yellowcake and Joe Wilson. I talked about the DSM. I laid it on the line about how we carpet bombed Iraq to try and get Saddam to fight back. I told her about how the most up-to-date intelligence would have been the UN and they said they had found no WMD's what-so-ever. After going over ALL of this,in painful detail, she told me she honestly believes they expected to find WMD's when they went into Iraq!!!!

I talked to her on her level. In fact, there has only been one other time I have felt anything but respect for her. That was when I tried to protect my nephews from an abusive person in the family. I went to this Republican and said we must stand up for the boys even if it meant that we went to protective services. She said even if the boys ended up in the hospital she would never go against their mom by going to protective services!

It is hard to talk down to people when most of them do not even want to hear what you have to say. I find a majority have made up their mind and do not care to change it.

Rather than letting these smart people be bamboozled, I assume you are doing what you seem to be advocating the rest of us do. I hope you are showing them proof positive they are wrong in a way that you would talk to a professor at a college. Let us know how it progresses.

[omega minimo]

106. It's too easy to use them as an excuse to not say what needs to be said

"It is hard to talk down to people when most of them do not even want to hear what you have to say. I find a majority have made up their mind and do not care to change it."


"Rather than letting these smart people be bamboozled, I assume you are doing what you seem to be advocating the rest of us do. I hope you are showing them proof positive they are wrong in a way that you would talk to a professor at a college. Let us know how it progresses."

Wow, I'm too dumb to figure out how subtly snarky that is :hi: Just what do you think I "seem to be advocating the rest of us do"?

[omega minimo]

107. Garrison Keillor said it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2869892

[demgurl]

116. If it came across as snarky, I am sorry.

I honestly see so many people that say to get out and do something and yet they do not post what they have done. You did not give a follow up and I was providing a follow up as to one of the many things that could have been said.

Please note that even though I feel they have made up their mind, I still tried the other day with my family member. I do feel their mind is made up and no matter what kind of evidence you present them with I think they will "stay the course".

This means you have three paths you can take. You can give up and do nothing to convince them. For my blood pressure's sake, this might be the most prudent for me but I refuse to give up on m country. You can try to convince them which is what I do. I have never converted anyone no matter how much solid evidence I give. Or, the last path, is just living with these people and co-exist.

I must admit I have a hard time fitting someone into the category of being smart when faced with the truth and cold hard facts they ignore it and go with what they think anyway. The person, I mentioned above, I used to think as smart. Now I think she may be smart in some areas but at the very least she is naive in other areas. At worst she just supports her party as does her husband. I wrote to him with story after story about Abu Gharib. He told me to stop and that he supports his government torturing and he is happy with everything they do.

I try not to talk down or be snarky to anyone. I do think you were trying to show that these people feel they have thought everything through even if they are totally wrong and have all of their information wrong. I am sorry if I stepped over the line. The first step to having a civilized conversation is respect. When you insult someone they automatically turn off and do not listen.

So I hope this will sound more respectful: How much information have you given them showing their opinions are all wrong? How did they react?

[omega minimo]

134. OIC-- TYVM demgurl

I admire your willingness to try to give folks information that will help. We are looking at this here from different angles.

"I do think you were trying to show that these people feel they have thought everything through even if they are totally wrong and have all of their information wrong.... How much information have you given them showing their opinions are all wrong? How did they react?"

The folks I was hoping to reach in the OP were the ones saying that "Joe Sixpack" is so (fill-in-the-blank) that Dems and DU must capitalize on a sex scandal ("the only think JS understands") to bring down Republican rule, at the expense of other urgent events. It seems that people assume those distracted mythical morans are always someone Out There somewhere-- I suggest that the lines are a bit blurrier than that. Who are we talking about-- and how are we throwing away our own complicity-- when we base our (in)action and strategy on the assumption that most Americans are stupid idiots?

The people I described to show that they are in touch with Democratic issues, whether they realize it or not. The hard working man aiming for early retirement knows he's fortunate to be in a union-- and that that union even exists anymore. He knows that his life plans he's worked on for a couple decades can be derailed by Bushco's economy about to go to shit.

His parents own many rental properties and do the cleaning and most of the repairs themselves. They are getting constantly hit by rising maintenance costs and local fees and taxes that make it harder for them to make their own plans for retirement. Cities are trying to squeeze every penny out of residents because of diverted funds they used to receive from the State and Feds. The woman who thinks Arnold "saved" California and the Dems mean higher taxes is not someone I would try to convince of anything. This family starts talking and doesn't stop, so I listen and try to say goodbye when they take a breath. :evilgrin:

Folks like that I tend to listen to more than try to convince. And anyone talking in favor of Arnold is buried under so many layers of bullshit, I wouldn't even try.

One of the things we are dealing with is a mind-boggling level of brainwashing and propaganda. (Again, I applaud your efforts to break through). So I listen to people. I listen to see what messages and events are getting through (and in what form). I bring up news stories to see whether they've heard about it (at all) and listen to the version they've been fed, which slogans and memes come through. IMHExperience, if you do try to counter or offer other info, the response (and preprogrammed Dittohead meme) is ingrained and automatic.

I hear conversations like the one in the OP:

"Joe/lene Sixpack owns a business and talks with suppliers in Oklahoma and Massachusetts who’ve had to raise wholesale prices because of exorbitant cost increases in fuel and shipping costs. They may never have met, they may think each other is probably Republican or Republican Lite (being a business owner and all) and they are on the phone openly agreeing with each other that their business woes are because of BIG BUSINESS RUNNING THE COUNTRY and BIG OIL COMPANIES GOUGING THE PUBLIC WHILE POSTING ALL TIME RECORD PROFITS."

If these two people are speaking openly in a business relationship about corporate rule being the cause of our problems, I can extrapolate that to a certain number of other "Joe Sixpacks" across the nation who are not a stupid as people think.

I listen to the "junk food eating, cigarette smoking California “Okies” who can (when they want) talk politics and make the point that every discussion about “what can we do about it?” comes down to the very American awareness that our best leaders seem to end up assassinated."

And I learn from them.

I learn you can't judge a book by its cover. You don't know who you may be talking to or what they may or may not be aware of.

[demgurl]

142. We both approach the same type of people in different ways.

I do listen to them when listening to callers on Rush. (yes, I am a glutton for punishment) I talk to them in person.

I will admit I have not gone into many Foley threads because it all makes me very sad. I hate that a young man (or several young men) may have been used by a much older adult in order for this whole thing to come about.

The ramifications of that are bad enough but throw in the possibility that their parents may not have believed them or wanted to go up against a big old congressman and that puts a much heavier imprint on them. My mom did not believe me when I told her about my Uncle wanting to do things to me. Years later I could not even tell her when I was raped. It does much to a child's ego when a parent can not or does not defend a child.

I say the above to let you know that I had no idea that some people were thinking that this scandal may break through to those who are "too stupid" for anything else to break through. I do believe that this may get through to the religious folk who have truly trusted the GOP. I am hoping that if they ignored the emails calling them wackos and somehow ignored the fact that these people, who own all branches of the government, have not pushed through any laws against abortion that a young man being hurt by all of this may wake them from their stupor.

I say this while I have an acquaintance who had an abortion, which she regrets, when she was young. She is pro-Republican and has a bumper sticker on her car that says she votes "pro-life". She does not see the inconsistency of it all even when you talk to her. Then again, she does not see the inconsistency of being a religious person (and ergo voting "pro-life") and at the same time being prejudiced against black people. Sometimes it makes your mind want to explode. Who would Jesus hate??????

We will have to agree and disagree about the label of being smart. I believe these people are smart in some areas. When they continually block out any truthful and relevant political information then I can not classify them as anything but a member of a cult. (that does not mean they are stupid) I think they have been brainwashed by the media and the talking heads. They react as a person would whose family is trying to rescue them. No amount of persuasion is going to get them home. I would love for someone to hire deprogrammers to show their family members the truth about this administration. I bet you they would have results and then we could set to work on the rest of the population.

Stupid? I am not sure I even want to go there. I think I will (for once) agree with the pResident about what the truth is. I believe they are not a part of the reality based community. They live in a fantasy world created for them by the GOP. I do not completely blame the regular person. If someone cames up to the average citizen and says the media is rigged, they may think the person should check into a place that has a nice comfortable rubber room. On it's face it is a crazy idea that we do not have a free press any more. This leads people to believe that if things we say are true then they would be reported in the media. For instance, if Kerry was truly a hero then the media would have corrected the swiftboaters, right? This is an old reality these people live in. It is an alternate one.

I do blame the ones who any of us have approached with the truth. When presented with facts like the ones we provide, it is then the person's responsibility to think it through and research it. If they do not, I do think they are either afraid or stupid. I guess it is like the person in "The Matrix" who does not want the curtain to be pulled back. Well even if the curtain is not pulled back, the real reality will not change.

They can ignore rapes and torture but it will still happen. They can ignore the growing debt but we will still owe that much more in taxes. It will have to be paid back. They can ignore the fact that Republicans espouse morals but the reality will not change that they give out checks from tobacco companies on the house floor. They can ignore the fact that Republicans say they have family values but that will not change the fact that one of their own has made improper advances to a young man and that many 'family value' congressmen may have covered it up.

No matter what they ignore, the problems are still there. It would be great if it were as easy as wishing them away or ignoring them and they truly would go away. Ignoring only makes things worse.

So I agree that most are not stupid. I would not put them in the smart category, though. I would say they are brainwashed. The ones who do not follow up our information are willfully ignorant at best and stupid win-at-all-costs at worst. There is no pride in supporting your party no matter how bad they get. You lie down with dogs and wake up with fleas - or worse!

[Hidden Stillness]

169. A Few More Points

Hi, omega minimo; another wonderful post here. This section reminded me of something of the same nature that I have also noticed:



"His parents own many rental properties and do the cleaning and most of the repairs themselves. They are getting constantly hit by rising maintenance costs and local fees and taxes that make it harder for them to make their own plans for retirement. Cities are trying to squeeze every penny out of residents because of diverted funds they used to receive from the State and Feds. The woman who thinks Arnold "saved" California and the Dems mean higher taxes..." etc.

This was similar to a part of the original post, and reminded me of the kind of highly-detailed understanding of the way things work that I have heard about or from, for example, people who have calculated and realize that their 401K is not going to last them for more than several years, and not the rest of their lives as a pension would have, or that they used to qualify for home-heating credit or other assistance, but now no longer do because Republicans have changed the rules, lowered the "poverty" level, and cut even more poor families off. They know that they used to be able to pay their bills and buy a certaim amount of food and other groceries, and now can't, and they know by what amount they now cannot pay for things. Many of these middle class and poor people have a highly-specific and even sophisticated knowledge of their situations, and the programs and laws that affect them, but all they get from the rich "consultant" types, (apart from "you sheeple assholes, you voted for Bush," even when they didn't), is "1) Be against the Iraq war, 2) be against the Iraq war, and 3) be against the Iraq war," no matter how you suffer and how little help you get.

They need free health fairs, and all they get is Richie Rich telling them about stem cell research, that presumably will someday be available to rich people; they need help fixing their very old cars, and all they get is "stop driving your SUV" (??), and "buy vehicles that use alternative energy," when people can't even afford to go to the dentist anymore; a real disconnect.

Remember after all, the fact uncovered by the AFL-CIO and other unions that still exist: white males of every income group above lower-middle-class/just above poverty voted for Bush over Kerry, except for one noticeable group. Like women, like blacks, like college-educated people, and like the "New Deal" generation that knew what was coming, white males who belonged to unions, voted for Kerry over Bush--a total break from the rest of that group's pattern. I grew up in a very educated, "blue-collar," middle class, union household, where we got the union newspaper, the union voting guides, and learned about things because of union meetings and special publications, etc.; this kind of informed public citizenry used to be common, and you learned about it on-the-job. Now that unions, and livable wages from a single job, are rare, and there is only the brain-dead, mind-killing visuals from the corporate propagandist, along with "liberal bad, liberal bad, liberal bad," "taxes bad, government bad, taxes bad, government bad," all day every day, there no longer even is this source of information to most people anymore, or the time to read anything.

Once again, compare this to another approach. The very first Fireside Chat ever given, 1933, about the new Federal banking laws that would protect people's savings, began with these words: "I want to tell you what has been done in the last few days, why it was done, and what the next steps are going to be." Then there was an explanation of how banking works, what the current crisis was, and how it would be solved; and it was. Maybe if some of these rich consultants for Democrats would get off their gold-plated asses and do the hard work of clearly explaining things, with true understanding, we might even find, when you remove all the "clever" carping of ad executives from their yachts, another Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt. The idea that people are too selfish to give anything up for the greater good--so beloved of selfish corporate types--was easily disproved again a few years ago, after the Sept. 11th attacks, when people were yearning for some National direction, a chance to serve our Nation and the larger world, to pull together as one great cause, sacrifice, and have something to devote yourself to, a new dawning day. Instead, we got the drunken, stupid little fuckass, Rich Boy, telling us to GO SHOPPING and increase corporate profits. People wanted to give their all, and there was no one there to make it possible. Go fucking shopping and buy things for yourself...This is why there is no National purpose from all this tragedy; it is because of Georgie and Dickie Caviar.

[OzarkDem]

149. I'd say you're the one who is condescending

sounds like you're projecting your attitudes onto the people you don't like - Democrats.

Acknowledging that Joe Six pack isn't interested in anyone else's opinion other than their own isnt condescension, its merely stating fact.

[omega minimo]

153. You are misinterpreting

projecting your black and white thinking
and insulting
Buh bye :hi:

[OzarkDem]

154. Then enlighten me, Mr. GOP

People understand public policy or they don't. How is it ok for a GOP'er to disagree with a Dem, but when a Dem disagrees with a GOP'er its "condescension"?

[omega minimo]

157. See #86

You're not even making sense

[Stu DeBeouf]

95. Belly-Bucking stoopid....

n/t

[Just Me]

159. Really? They're smart enough to survive better than the "spoileds",...

,...who couldn't handle actually WORKING with their own minds and hands to create "heaven on earth". Let me tell you something about US common folks: we don't HAVE to hire someone to take care of the basics of living. These, arrogant elitists couldn't change their damned oil, wrap a leaking faucet, install a light fixture (probably don't even change their own freakin' light bulbs), clean their own clothes, wear their clothes more than a year, sweep their fucking porches.

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT: the elite of the elite,...who are intentionally, master-mindfully no less than Hitler himself,...to manipulate and deceive and betray and con,...not only "Joe six-pack", but ANY American citizen who will "BUY, BUY, BUY" into their product. What is that PRODUCT?

WE are the product, both sold and buying. WE ARE THE PRODUCT.

SICK SICK SICK!!!!!

[upi402]

104. Joe Sixpack is so stupid...

it takes him 2 hours to watch 60 minutes.

[The Doctor.]

112. He voted for Bush against his own self-interest?

Pretty friggin' stoopid.

[w4rma]

114. We should blame ourselves for not trying to explain these issues better

to "Joe Sixpack". It's not just the fault of the politicians. It's all of our faults.

[cigsandcoffee]

117. If Democrats give up on Joe Sixpack....

...then they cease to exist as a party. End of story. Calling them stupid from down the bridge of your elitist nose can only hurry that along.

Not all that many years ago, Joe Sixpack was the core of the Democratic Party.

[omega minimo]

119. That's it. They is us. We is they. The Big Tent (Made n China?)

The "common folk" can tell the stories about the outsourced job and the lack of health insurance and the kid in Iraqistan and the eminent domain and the WalMartization and the McMansioning of Hometown, USA and the health and safety violations in the factory and the lack of flood control thanks to corrupt Congressman on the Abramoff payroll.............................

They could tell wonky Dems some real ife stories and add to a Democratic voice building in the nation to end Repuglican Rule--- if Dems listen.

[WI_DEM]

120. Not all "Joe Six-packs" are Neanderthals and Union workers by

and large are our allies. Sometimes we Liberals do seem elitist to them.

[porphyrian]

121. To Be and Aristotelean Essentialism

Nobody "is" stupid (or "stoopid," if we must employ the additional gag). At least, we can't prove that anyone "is" stupid. People may exhibit stupid behavior, but using the verb "to be" in this instance implies some form of essential quality that transcends behavior, that they "are" stupid, and we have no means of proving (or disproving) such a claim. The only qualities we can discuss "meaningfully" (that is, verifiably, beyond speculation and storytelling, not that these are without value or meaningless, it's simply a term I've heard used) are experiential as translated by our perceptions. It is as empty a claim that "he is stupid" as "I am a flying pink elephant trapped within this body." We can choose to accept either or not, but neither can be proven true or false. However, I think it is safe to say that most of the Sixpacks act pretty stupid most of the time, especially where politics are involved. In another country or era, they would've already stormed the White House.

[Common Sense Party]

127. Is * stupid?

Or does he merely do stupid things?

[porphyrian]

131. If he were stupid, which we cannot determine beyond his actions...

...given our limited perceptions and instrumentation, then we could use his name synonymously with stupid and say the Sixpacks are bush. However, we can only speculate.

[Common Sense Party]

132. Man, then a lotta DUers speculate. I've heard * called stupid,

retarded, a chimp, a puppet, a moron, etc.

They may be looking at his actions, but they're judging him.

You've never done so, though?

[porphyrian]

143. I didn't say that.

I call the fucker stupid all the time. I never made any claims about my own actions. I was simply pointing out a nitpicking, yet important, facet of the conversation. Does anyone contain the untestable quality of a stupid essence? Who knows?

Also, though you didn't point it out, I am aware that saying the Sixpacks are bush suffers from the same essentialist problem as saying they are stupid, but I like irony (and ruining it with later explanation).

[omega minimo]

138. To Joe or Not To Joe-- That Is The Question

"The only qualities we can discuss "meaningfully" ... are experiential as translated by our perceptions."

Or perceived as translated by our experiences. And Joe Sixpack's.

[porphyrian]

144. I think we have us some reflexive property!

Lest my mathematical vocabulary has become corrupted with disuse, that is.

[OzarkDem]

150. I don't Joe

People who are close minded and not willing to consider information and other points of view don't interest me. I don't waste my time on them, there's nothing to be gain by trying to discuss anything with them.

What do you expect, that we should begin agreeing with them and become Republicans? No thanks.

[omega minimo]

152. What I would hope to expect

is that we do what we believe is right and not use people we consider ignorant as an excuse not to.

[OzarkDem]

155. We don't live in anarchy

Good government isn't an opinion, its something that is real and based on evidence. Programs and policy succeed or failed for fairly concrete reasons, not opinions.

Our country doesn't govern itself by allowing everyone to do whatever they want. I think you're getting the nebulous, elusive "values" confused with real governance and public policy.

[omega minimo]

158. It's called Integrity, not Anarchy

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

122. "Stoopid"? No. But, incredibly ignorant.

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

[Jcrowley]

125. Never

have so many known so much about so little. Seems to me the VAST majority of Americans be they liberal or conservative Joe/Jean Sixpack or Citizen are much more concerned with ipods, cellphones, fashion and all the myriad soft sell accoutrements that the empire has to offer even as they're getting screwed by the elites.

For most when you speak of equality this means getting more to attain that life of the leisure class rather than giving up much of what they take for granted. When we compare our opulent middle class lifestyle to the rest of the world it becomes a rather macabre scene from the plastic emporium. Just go around and ask how many of the vaunted middle class are willing to actually turn in their SUV's and other goodies in order to achieve a just and sustainable world. I suspect (more than suspect) the percentage of folks who would go along with this plan is tiny.

You are what you do.

[joe_sixpack]

128. Why are you surprised?

I, and other Joe Sixpacks are a big part of the Democratic party. Or at least used to be. Just cause a guy has to work hard for a living doesn't mean he's ignorant about politics. Just means he doesn't have the time to devote a large chunk of his life to it or obsess about it. Some times getting out and about and getting dirty with all sorts of working class people gives one a deeper view of human nature.

[Itchinjim]

129. Very well said Joe!

Jim Sixpack

[joe_sixpack]

130. Thanks Jim,

and nice to meet you. I'm a Sox fan by the way though I would still like to see the Cubs win one. I actually grew up close to Wrigley.

[omega minimo]

141. Who's surprised?

"Joe/lene Sixpack knows the score.

"The Sixpacks may not be political (aside from community activism affecting their properties) or talk strategy; they may prefer dumb and mean Leno to clever and snarky Letterman and not even know who Jon Stewart IS; they may not have the free time to devote to The Demise Of The Nation as a hobby. But The Sixpacks know what time it is.

"Joe/lene Sixpack may drive a big rig and have plenty of stories to tell you about the up close and personal realities of crossing state lines and delivering product under the Dept. of Fatherland Security; trying to maintain self-employment on the road while adhering to MegaLoMart’s New World Order demands on distributors and drivers; dealing with law enforcement on the highways and byways. You think THESE are the people who can’t fathom the implications of last week’s Torture bill that gives more power to the King of America, including the right to decide who should just DISAPPEAR for Whatever Reason?

"It’s time to quit blaming Joe/lene Sixpack for the inability and unwillingness of policy wonks and political junkies to call for accountability from our elected officials; to call for an END to their inability and unwillingness to do THEIR jobs and demand accountability -- as The People’s representatives -- from the elected officials they are face to face with.

Joe/lene Sixpack may be further down the political food chain but --Surprise Surprise -- may be more in touch with the realities of life in BushCo’s America than even the well-heeled, highly paid, policy specialists who use “Joe Sixpack” as an excuse to not do their jobs, to not advise their consulting clients to their jobs, to not spur elected officials to do their jobs."


Thanks for checkin in Joe! DU needs to know you're there/here. :hi:

[Greyhound]

133. More than half of them are just stupid enough,

depending on what your definition of stupid is.

Mean-spirited, anti-intellectual snobs, willfully ignorant, these are more apt descriptions, IMO.

[morgan2]

139. ya its the whole

If we dont accept less someone else will attitude.

[omega minimo]

140. "ya its the whole 'If we dont accept less, someone else will' attitude."

Dayum morgan2, way to break it down :applause:


And if we (DUer Dems) don't DEMAND more, who will?

:bounce:

[wtmusic]

160. Great -- another pissing war

about who's more "salt of the earth" than whom.

If you don't think there are blue collar idiots out there, think again. Campaigning for Kerry I met hundreds of them. People who wouldn't know or care what "habeus corpus" was but would "know" that it couldn't be as bad as molesting little kids.

Just like there are strategist-idiots in the DLC who wouldn't know how to win the blue collar vote if you hit them over the head with it.

This isn't a class war between the upper and lower classes but between the VERY highest 2%, and everyone else. The true idiots aren't worth our time. But the rest of whatever stratum of the bottom 98% you choose more likely just don't know, and have a pretty good excuse for not knowing. We can educate, we can motivate--to certain extent. Will it be enough?

[omega minimo]

161. Interesting how some here are so resistant to bridge-building

They like their cliches and black & white thinking just the way they are.


"If you don't think there are blue collar idiots out there, think again."

I never said this. I hope you managed to read the OP and some of the thread-- I know both were long.

"This isn't a class war between the upper and lower classes but between the VERY highest 2%, and everyone else."

Agreed. And the MegaRich Media Lords have got most of the rest of us identifying more with THEM than with the "salt o' the earth."

"We can educate, we can motivate--to certain extent. Will it be enough?"

That's important. This OP addressed the willingness of many of us to not even TRY to educate or motivate "Joe Sixpack" about anything other than Foley's sex scandal. Just like the "strategist-idiots in the DLC who wouldn't know how to win the blue collar vote if you hit them over the head with it."

This thread attempted to bridge the gap between the cliche "blue collar idiots" and the "strategist-idiots" and those who emulate them on a board where the blue collar may not be idiots and the strategy (All Foley All The Time To Eject The Repugs!) may be misguided.

[wtmusic]

162. No economic class has a lock on idiocy

as is evidenced by our current leader (pick any "joe sixpack" off the street--and the odds are good, with a little help, that he/she'd be just as capable).

IMO this thread just emphasizes the importance (and danger) of media independence. If even one or two of the networks had openly questioned the legitimacy of going to war in Iraq there might not have even been a war. Americans have gotten far too accustomed to believing what they hear on the evening news as being what's truly important.

[omega minimo]

164. "emphasizes the importance (and danger) of media independence."

"IMO this thread just emphasizes the importance (and danger) of media independence. If even one or two of the networks had openly questioned the legitimacy of going to war in Iraq there might not have even been a war. Americans have gotten far too accustomed to believing what they hear on the evening news as being what's truly important."

Yes, I got that too-- esp. in the discussion with demgurl. The real problem is that everything is spoon fed through the TV.

"Americans have gotten far too accustomed to believing what they hear on the evening news as being what's truly important."

Well, it usedta be "what's truly important." And the business owner in the OP who knows corporations are runnin the show and knows corporations owns the media still has the habit of believing what that media transmits.