How do you respond when someone says....

[QuettaKid]

"I have no problem with the gov. spying on me...I haven't done anything wrong"

[zalinda]

1. Ask them if they would feel the same if someone they

didn't like was in office.

zalinda

[hippiechick]

2. Define 'wrong'.

And then remind them that in Germany in the 30's ... that simply BEING was considered wrong and an offense punishable by death for a whole segment of the population.

Ask them if they've ever heard the term 'slippery slope'.

[Imagine My Surprise]

39. nice response to that.

[AValdoux]

3. Try this...

"You gonna let Hilary do it? or Howard Dean?


AValdoux

[rman]

4. How far would you let the govt go to spy on you....

camera in your house, in your bedroom?
Should there be a limit at all, or should there be no limit?

[TheBaldyMan]

9. But the camera the government shoved in my bunghole ...

will help with early diagnosis of any bowel disorder.

Some people will not stir until they get unequivocal proof that harms them directly and even then will blame the wrong party.

[Gormy Cuss]

36. I use the 'bathroom' as my example too

Lunkheads who don't understand that it's about privacy can usually understand when you ask them to film their bathroom habits. Another one is to ask if it's OK for the government to use back scatter X-rays on you without notice and to record the images of your naked body complete with your name and SSN.

[converted_democrat]

5. If I know the person well......

I start talking really loudly about their "closet behaviors" (drinking, smoking, porn, how they cheated on tests and the like) and then look for a reaction. As soon as I get that shut the fuck up look, I know I've won.

on edit to make clearer- If they are uncomfortable discussing their "closet behavior" loudly in public, you know they won't want the government to know about it...And they know it too.

[LiberalEconomist]

6. Tell 'em

Sounds like you have something to hide. Maybe I should call the authorities and have them snoop around your life.

[porphyrian]

7. "What makes you so sure?"

People commit crimes all the time, often without knowing it. A friend of mine believes that everyone will commit at least one felony in their lifetime, whether or not they realize it or are arrested for it. Together with "probable cause," they can bring just about anyone one in they want to. Some people they just have to wait a little longer for.

Better yet, tell them that it isn't about them spying on you, it's about them doing it ILLEGALLY, which means that nothing they may have learned can be used in court, and they are actually helping real terrorists get their cases thrown out because of it.

[NYC Liberal]

8. If they have nothing to hide, then why SHOULD the government

spy on them in the first place?

[applegrove]

10. Well - people all over the world have been spied on by the USA.

It is only illegal to spy on you inside. So perhaps we are used to it - the notion. I trust that there is policy in the USA for the NSA or whomever. Though I am beginning to doubt there is anything left of policy at times.

If you've ever been a victim of a crime you get a little more "law & order". I don't care for the inconvenience of having to think about it for a little bit - and then forget it. If it means they catch the creeps.

Think about it. All over the world, creeps cannot use the internet to create terror or crime. And you and I can go on about our business and nobody cares.

What I don't agree with is spying without court order. Of course court orders are there so that cause of some sort needs to be shown. Otherwise I'm sure the temptation to use it for political gain is so great - I wouldn't put it past these turkeys. They have pet projects these mushrooms in the WH. And pet causes. And they should never be allowed near a tap without a court order.

Anyway - I've been posting for a year that your government could get into anyting any Canadian has on their computer. And the rest of the world too.

It is different when it happens to you. Go and fight for those court orders. Otherwise they may have succesfully set another precedent in the great anthill or social & judicial revolution the neocons love so much.

[flamin lib]

11. The real issue is data mining. With a little information from a

telecom provider the NSA can gather almost everything about you. According to Bush they are sifting through that looking for connections to terror groups and that's all. The next President may want to sort through it and see who has a subscription to Guns & Ammo. Or the Attorney General may want to know who has ever seen a sexy movie.

The real danger is that things that you take for granted as innocuous may be used against you in the future.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. What are you going to do when the government redefines what is wrong?

What if the government decides its not a good idea for citizens to keep firearms, and they come for yours. What are you gonna do? Don't give me the Second Amendment defense-snoopgate has made the Constitution moot.

(I use the gun argument because that is a hot button issue around here.)

[rateyes]

13. Tell them that you will not argue the point with them...

because you refuse to fight a battle of wits with an unarmed individual.

[DavidDvorkin]

14. "I'm sure many Soviet citizens felt the same way."

And German citizens during the Nazi era.

[converted_democrat]

16. Ooohhh, that's a good one! n/t

[DavidDvorkin]

43. I should have added Apartheid South Africa

I remember adults there (I was a kid) being wary when saying anti-government things to each other. You never knew who might turn you in.

But there must have been quite a few who thought that was a good thing, because the government was protecting all of us against black terrorists and communists and anarchists, and if you were innnocent, you had nothing to worry about.

[HuskerDU]

15. 'But, but Limbaugh's attorney said that we have what is called

a right to privacy in America.'

[WinkyDink]

17. "Then let Cheney reveal what went on in the Energy Meetings."

If he has done nothing wrong.
"Let Bush and Cheney testify UNDER OATH, SEPARATELY, about 9/11."
If they have done nothing wrong.
"Let Bush rescind his order NOT to allow access to Reagan's, his father's or his own Presidential Papers."
If he has and they have nothing to hide.

Etc.

[No Exit]

22. Yeah!!! Or let Rush Limbaugh reveal his medical records.

If he has nothing to hide. After all, a person can't control his medical condition, so how could he be to blame for it (unless he was snorting Oxycontin or something...)?

[PurpleChez]

18. I'd ask: "What makes you so sure of that?"

How certain are they that they haven't been reading the wrong books, visiting the wrong websites, attending the wrong church, etc., etc.? Remind them that what is "wrong" is by no means straightforward when you're dealing with a paranoid regime. Just because you think you're Leave-it-to-Beaver whitebread church-going America doesn't mean that you're not on The List. As another member pointed out a week or two ago the computers that we think might be monitoring email, web use, library use, etc., are not aware of your thoughts -- they just look for key words -- so don't be so sure that the osama bin laden joke you forwarded last month didn't send up a red flag at the NSA. Many freepers have a Montana Freemen mentality when it comes to the inviobility of Their Property. They'll applaud when the gummint arrests some queers for fornicating in the privacy of their own home, but they'll raise holy hell if they think anyone has violated THEIR sovereignity. To rip off a theme from John Prine, their W sticker isn't gonna keep them offa surveilence anymore.

[No Exit]

19. "So you wouldn't mind if President Hillary Clinton spied on you, right?"

Or President John Kerry. Or President Bill Clinton. Or President Al Gore.

[Richard Steele]

29. Bingo. People who spout that asinine line are always Freeper-types.

And they would scream bloody murder if any REAL, ELECTED president
like Kerry or Gore claimed to have such powers.

[No Exit]

20. "Neither did Richard Jewell.

But look what happened to him. Falsely accused of a bombing in which a woman was killed.

But of course, YOU could NEVER be falsely accused. Right."

That's what you could say. Even wingnuts relate to what happened to Richard Jewell. Or you could say "Randy Weaver" instead of Richard Jewell. They LOVE to get their panties in a wad over what happened to Weaver.

[Kansas Wyatt]

21. Present them with a piece of paper that says,

I,__________ (no problems with being spied on), have authorized (you)___________ to enter my home by any means at any time, view all banking, business records, personal papers, and medical records, including all secure information, by any means at any time, and I allow full access to all of my property by any means at any time, all of which shall never be presented to law enforcement for criminal prosecution. (You)__________ is permanently released from any civil legal action arising from this authorization, and shall not be subject to any recourse what so ever.


Signed ___________ (no problems with being spied on)

[yorkiemommie1]

30. excellent!

n/t

[No Exit]

38. I like that one! We can staple this to their recruitment forms!

[The Stranger]

23. Ask to see their bank accounts, tax returns, telephone records, email acct

. . . contacts list, to bug their house and place tracking devices on their car. In fact, have them produce the first few items there on the spot.

See if they are as sanguine about being spied upon. After all, they haven't done anything wrong, right?

[MadisonProgressive]

24. What if

the government thinks you are doing something wrong anyway? It's just a precedent that must not be set. It opens the floodgate to abuse of all of our rights. I may be reading a book on how to make a nuclear bomb - just out of curiosity. That's not illegal, therefore I'm not doing anything 'wrong'. But the government in power might have a more nefarious point of view on that.

Bottom line... either follow the Constitution, or amend it to nullify the 4th amendment.

[Javaman]

25. I say, "okay, let me look at your investments, your files on your computer

your, phone bill, checking account, your bank account, any and all clubs or affiliations you belong too, etc. If they object, then I say, that's exactly what the gov't is doing to you right now.

If they don't have a problem with the gov't looking at their stuff, why should they have a problem with me looking at it?

fools, head in the ground fools.

[TheFarseer]

26. what if they start spying for

Medical records so you can be denied health insurance? What if they start spying on anyone running for public office to dig up dirt and air your life in commercial form? What if they engage in corporate spying for donors? Would you like them to spy on you and sell the info to marketing firms so they can send you junk mail and call you all day long? What if you’re downloading music or a movie and you get sent to prison for that because they found out from spying? Maybe they can wiretap conversations you have with your accountant and you get audited for questionable deductions. Just a few off the top of my head.

[TNOE]

27. Some DU Poster

said something like this - which really struck me, but I had to read quickly and didn't respond to the post. But it said something to the effect of I'm not doing anything wrong when I'm going to the bathroom or having sex, but I don't want anyone watching me do it. That statement struck home with me.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

28. Point out

that if the Fourth Amendment means nothing to them, then's what so special about the Second Amendment? Why not give up the guns too?

[guruoo]

31. Easy

'If Bush had nothing to hide, why did he
avoid the legal oversight process?'
Followup: 'What part of "it's against the law"
do you not understand?'

LTTE from today's local paper:

If you've nothing to hide, why worry on spying?

In reference to "People in power keep spinning their lies." (Letters, Dec. 5)

First: It's no lie the 101st dug up dozens of missiles. Then, about a year ago, troops dug up MiG fighters. Also when the Americans first went into Iraq three Scud missiles were fired at them, and if they did not have deadly chemicals, why were all the chemical suits found in hospitals throughout Iraq.


Now the spying: If you do not have something in your closet that you don't want someone to find, then no one in the United States should have anything to worry about.

If the spying saves one American life, I say get on with the job, Mr. President.

Yes, America, when are you going to wake up?

CHARLIE PAGE

Clarksville 37042

http://theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051229/OPINION03/512290317/1014/OPINION

[Toots]

32. Saddam said he had nothing to hide also and Bush* said that was proof

he was hiding things. Look what we did to Iraq and it turned out Saddam was telling the truth.

[mikehiggins]

33. I say that's not the issue

The issue is that the President willfully disobeyed a federal law in defiance of his oath of office and the US Constitution. He is a self-admitted criminal.

If your buddy heard of a bank robbery, but didn't have money in that bank, would that be cool with him?

[pdxmom]

34. I had a family member say that, and I asked him if he was ok with

the government just coming in and searching his home, since he had nothing to hide. He said no, cause everyone has something to hide. I told him that there was absolutely no difference. He agreed and changed his mind.

[EstimatedProphet]

35. Tell them this:

That you're going to run to Canada (foreign country) for a day and make a pay phone call to thier telephone, and talk about links to Al Qaeda's plans to attack the US, and how his role in blowing up the White House and shooting the President is going. Then remind him, if he thinks this is silly, that everyone has enemies.

[LWolf]

37. "I value my privacy."

"I don't have to be doing anything wrong to think that I don't need extra eyes in my bathroom, my bedroom, my bank statement, or my web browser.

I don't need extra ears on my phone lines or inserting themselves into my family conversations. I'm not doing anything wrong, and my life is nobody else's god-damned business. My life is not an episode of 'Suvivor-U.S. surveillance.'"

[kentuck]

40. "And I have no problem when they lead you away in cuffs..."

and you screaming about your innocence every step.

[TheFarseer]

41. Even better examples

What if a democratic government started monitoring dumping used motor oil down the drain or on the ground? Or maybe when the liberals ban guns they could find out you have guns and send you to prison. What if they found out you were spanking your children and they took your children away? The gov’t could monitor what you kept your thermostat at or how often you flushed your toilet or how fast you are driving and fine you if you’re wasting too many resources. If you talk about how ducks are always on your land the government could confiscate it and turn it into a wetland-duck sanctuary. Be creative. Tap into the crazy anti-government freeper inside all bush apologists.

[zbdent]

42. "Why did you oppose it when Clinton wanted 1 / 10th of what

Bush got with Patriot Act I?"

[QuettaKid]

45. excellent responses ! ! !

thanks everyone. these are all really great.

[Generator]

44. In theory I don't either

I'm an innocent stay at home mom, homeowner, who pays all her taxes and who just rants on the computer from time to time. But..the deal here is history. Those that are pro giving all power to get "THEM" need to learn some. Ever hear the phrase absolute power corrupts absolutely? Do you trust your government and Bush, and all of them so implictily that any information they have on YOU personally and on everyone you know personally, ex friends, former lovers, current husbands,wives, mother,father, your precious children is a-okay?

They will NEVER abuse this power to know all and use it however they deem? Okay..fine. As I said after Bush "won" stupid is as stupid does.

DO not trust your government or ANYONE with absolute power. Ever here of Stalinst Russia? That cold war thing? Ever here of a police state? History might be useful. Governments best interest is always itself first last and always. It's not you. But don't think "it" can't happen here. Stalinst Russia is only a few more years down the line if you let the government wipe out your rights one by one by one. I used to think that the patriot act was not so bad. Then I saw what they can do with it. Hold AMERICAN citizens without trial. Without charges. Without due process. I've heard they have prisons around the world where my government tortures bad men. Maybe one is innocent, maybe one is an American citizen. You want to take that chance? Of course, it will never be YOU or happen here. God forbid it even happens to anyone you might personally know. History.

The world didn't start on 9/11/2001.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

46. A police state will always be a safer place to live in (for most).

A LTTE in today's Minneapolis Star-Tribune says:

A letter writer ("Safe, not sorry," Dec. 27) suggests that, if it weren't for the constitutional ban on unreasonable searches, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing might not have occurred.

Of course, we might also be safer were dissenters not allowed to gather together, even peaceably, we might be safer if our government had tight reins on the press and on public speech, we might be safer if the government were allowed to arrest people without charges and without the right to a fair and open trial.

In fact, if it weren't for our pesky Constitution, we might indeed be safer, but, this nation might also look a lot like Stalinist Russia.

http://www.startribune.com/563/story/151340.html

[rockymountaindem]

47. You don't mind some total stranger listening while you're talking dirty

with your girlfriend? What about when you're on the phone cryin' to mama? You want some G-man listening to that even if you "haven't done anything wrong"?

That's what I'd say.