How do I respond? Gays, religion, from my d-i-l.

[babylonsister]

My daughter-in-law, who I love dearly, wants to find a religion that might fit her needs. However, she
believes also that gay people are 'taught' their impulses and not born with them.
I need to dissuade her of this.

I know, this could go in multiple forums, but it might do okay here also. Or not!

[TlalocW]

1. Dougintology

A religious started by my friend, Doug. The main holiday being Dougmas, and the official song being a parody of one of Joan Osbourne's songs - "What if Doug Was One of Us."

Main tenets are being liberal, reading sci-fi books, playing video games, and having an affinity for African Gray parrots.

TlalocW

[ComerPerro]

2. Try anything that uses the Old Testament

If she believes that homosexuality is a sin and an immoral choice, then she will fit right in with any of those

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

3. Of course, the religion that should really be paying attention to the OT

is Judaism and most Jews I know are fine with homosexuality.

[ComerPerro]

4. Just about every single one of the anti-gay passages people quote

are from the OT

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

7. Oh I know, trust me.

I'm well-versed on them. Rev. Mel White also put out a good phamphlet through Soulforce deconstructing them all, along with Paul's letters.

[babylonsister]

16. That's what I'm looking for, something to deconstruct. Thanks, haruka3! nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. No problem.

Yeah, order a couple copies of the phamphlet. One for yourself and one for her. White puts it in a historical/social perspective that applies to that place and time, explaining those statements don't apply to homosexuality as it is in modern society.

[babylonsister]

6. I want to direct her to something

other than what she's reading. And she's receptive so I don't want to mess it up.
And I'm trying to find scripture that accepts gays.

[ComerPerro]

8. I honestly don't think you can find it

[babylonsister]

17. Really? How is

gayness justified for anyone/everyone in church? Is the Bible followed, or is it the thought of God that gets people through their week? Why would anyone worship God if they didn't think God would love them?
God supposedly loves everyone. I think there might be passages to attest to that. That's what I'm trying to find out, anyway.
I'm not religious, but I suppose I have a regard for God and cannot believe he/she would cast aside gays. It does not compute.

[ComerPerro]

19. you will find plenty of "God loves all" passages

but you won't find anything that specificaly refers to homosexuals.

[troubleinwinter]

34. Babylonsister-

Here is a direct link to a printable .pdf file of the pamphlet haruka refers to! http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf

I just read it. It is excellent, and just what you're looking for, I think.

[babylonsister]

46. Thank you; I just sent her this link.

I'm also going to read it! :hug:

[karlrschneider]

51. You might mention that Jesus never said one single word about it.

If she doesn't believe you, tell her you will buy her a new car if she can find something...trust me,
your bank account is safe. :D

[babylonsister]

9. I asked her what she was reading and knew there's a

version that would change her mind. This woman is trying to release all the boogey-men in her mind, has discovered meditation, is not religious in that she doesn't attend a church service anywhere, but has opinions, some uninformed.
I'm trying to help. And I brought up homosexuality because that would draw the line on our thoughts regarding society and religion. Prior to tonight, I didn't know hers.

[ComerPerro]

12. Possiby some eastern religion, then?

[babylonsister]

21. No. The Bible, but I don't know which version. Her knowledge

or lack of (i.e., God says man and woman, blah blah blah) is what got me. I know there are churches that praise all God's children, not just men and women.
My mission is to educate her, and the best part is she wants to be educated!

[Tyo]

5. This is a hard one for me

What brought gays front and center in her spiritual quest? I'm afraid I know which "religion" she will end up with and I'm not sure that there is much you can do about it. All I can suggest is to try to get her to pin down exactly when it was that she decided to become straight and see if that gets her thinking. Being gay is no more a conscious decision than is the colour of your eyes, but I'm not sure that she is prepared to accept this.

[donco6]

10. I find the premise interesting.

"wants to find a religion that might fit her needs."

I'm 46 and haven't found that yet. Personally, I think it's better to figure out what you believe first, then see if you can find any likeminded souls. But that's just me.

What's her background? Does she have experience with any demoninations?

[cboy4]

11. Has she checked out the Republican Party? They are a radical religion

with a heavy emphasis on hate.....so I don't know if that would be right for your S-I-L.

I think you need to be more specific about what her needs are.

By the way, tell her that I was taught my "impulses" at the University of California at Berkeley.

Terrific 4-year program in homosexual brainwashing (although I was so obsessed with perfecting my impulses, it took me 5 years) ;)

[babylonsister]

13. Hold on. Hate NEVER entered into this. You're gay. When did

you realize that? She's of the opinion that people can change when they find out. I told her it's genetic usually. Am I wrong?
She's very open to some knowledge. We talked about religion and while she believes in God, wants to belived the Bible, I told her there are many interpretations of it.

[TygrBright]

24. Current biological/medical consensus seems to be...

...devolving to the "genetics loads the gun, and gestational chemistry pulls the trigger" explanation for homosexuality. It's very complex, and there is no firm explanation that fits everything. But, generally, there seems to be some evidence that birth sequence affects gestational hormones, and fetal exposure to certain levels of particular hormones tips the balance in gender orientation. However, the balance might not be there to be tipped without a genetic component as well. In any case, it's quite clear from the literature that gender orientation is NOT something that can be "changed" by wishful thinking, programming/deprogramming, 'come to Jesus' revelations, or any other persuasion.

Some people who are same-gender oriented consciously decide to suppress it or to remain celibate rather than express it. That decision is usually made based on the terrible price extracted by prejudice and hatred of gays. Sometimes the decision results in self-hatred, depression, and (in extreme cases) suicide. Often it results in suffering and pain for the individual, and sometimes for family and friends who feel betrayed by the cycle of self-destructive and/or deceptive behavior that results. IOW, they stop "acting" gay but they cannot stop BEING gay.

Nor is there any support in the synoptic Gospels for belief that Christ's teachings embraced homophobia or that Christ regarded homosexuality as evil. Perhaps discussing in detail the Christ portrayed in those Gospels and the priorities he seemed most concerned with might help your DIL obtain some clearness around what is asked of those who commit themselves to Christianity. (Hint: It's not "hate thy neighbor.")

I feel for you, babylonsis... it's tough to be watching when so much is at stake. But there's only so much you can do. The MOST powerful witness is exposure to Christians who live the self-transformation Christ preached, and who have rejected hate for love, and embraced the most urgent priorities Christ exposed: Compassion for the poor, the sick, the homeless, the prisoners, the rejects and outcasts of society. There's a lot of them around but they tend not to be loud and insistent about what other people "should" do, because they're busy doing what they feel THEY should be doing. If you can find some of them, maybe get your DIL in contact with them...

sympathetically,
Bright

[cboy4]

25. I didn't mean to insinuate that your sister-in-law is hateful, so I'm

sorry about that.

If she's related to you, I'm sure she must be a decent person -- I read your posts and I know you're terrific.

You just have to understand that a lot of gay people are very upset right now about this Foley asshole.

I'm tying not to make mistakes with my responses.

But when I read "taught" their impulses, it set me off.

So, I'm sorry if I offended you.

It was the last thing I intended to do.

[babylonsister]

27. You are a dear, and don't worry about it!

I love my daughter-in-law, I love that she's trying to find the meaning of life and God, if that's even possible, and I'm trying to help her.
You helped me; you didn't dissuade me. I know gays aren't taught anything, I told her most honest homosexuals are born that way. That's the science I was looking for. And she countered with Ann Heche.
Then we starting discussing bi-sexuals. I'm about 20 years older, but this all gets back to the Bible and what God meant. I thought God loved everyone. I'm just trying to prove gays are eligible. :hi:

[cboy4]

33. :)

:hug:

[annabanana]

42. Ask her when she decided to be straight....

It might get her thinking. Also ask her why anyone would choose to be part of such a vilified and discriminated against group.

[Bobbieo]

20. Many Native American tribes believe gays and lesbians are

"two spirit people" with both male and female spirits in their bodies. They often became the tribal spiritual leaders. It's a comfortable concept!!!

[TygrBright]

14. There are a range of options...

...among both mainline and small sect Christian denominations. United Methodists are very traditional in their theology but surprisingly liberal in practice in many of their congregations, and they don't emphasize hate.

United Church of Christ has a very activist feel in its emphasis on 'doing' Christianity. The energy they are generating has a passion reminiscent of some of the creepier sects, but it is very positively-focused. However, they are unabashedly pro-gay, so she might already be biased against them. Same deal with Episcopals.

Individual congregations differ widely, but Lutheran and UMC would be my recommendations as places to start for Churches that are very much 'traditional' and 'Christian' but not hate-based.

If she's looking for something smaller and less mainstream, and more 'extreme' in practice, have her check out Mennonites, who are extremely conservative in regards to practice and theology without being hate-based.

helpfully,
Bright

[babylonsister]

23. Thanks, Bright, and have I ever told you, I love your

adjectively directed sign-offs?
Lutheran is out probably as I told her tonight about my mom's unfortunate incarceration in a Lutheran home in the 40s, after she became an orphan. She never sought out religion after that.

This gal is looking for truth and I'm trying to help her and educate her.
:hi:

[seabeyond]

15. deepak chopra and gary zukav seat of the soul are good

also ruiz the four agreements. these willhelp her with her own spirituality until she can identify a religion if she needs. they will also show her how to be responsible with herself and not decide and judge for others. deepak very much talks about god. there is one i listened to on tape about the 7 paths to god or something. v ery very good

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. The only approach that really works is to try a variety of religions

and find one that resonates with her.

She'll know it when she finds it.

It's all experiential, not logical.

[BlooInBloo]

26. It doesn't make one whit of difference. There's nothing wrong with it.

Whether it's learned or inborn. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't matter what the source is.

Sheesh. People never learn.

[babylonsister]

28. Are you talking about religion or gayness?

Can being gay be 'learned' and who would do it, who would 'teach' someone to be gay when being straight would be so much easier? That's one of the questions.
I know religion can be easier to 'learn'.

[BlooInBloo]

29. source of gayness.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Here....

This book, "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality," is a great resource and it is not long. It is clear and concise. That should help with the questions, religiously, about homosexuality. There are some great books about "nature vs. nurture" as well.

As for copacetic religions, Unitarian Universalists are good as are reform Jews. Both groups tend to be very open and generally, socially and economically liberal.

Good luck!

[babylonsister]

31. Your thread is going to my friend and d-i-l.. Thanks a lot! nt

[Behind the Aegis]

32. You are welcome!

If you need recommendations on other books, I have an entire bookcase of gay books. There are some good ones and then some that are, well, crap. I hope it helps.

[readmoreoften]

35. United Church of Christ

Very smart about the gays. You might also want to direct her to Soulforce (which is a group that ministers to conservatives about LGBT issues)

[Rowdyboy]

36. Sadly, I see no way you can lift the veil of ignorance from her...She's

not gay, nor, apparently, does she really know anyone who is. Good luck helping her see the light. Your odds are bad but thank you for trying.

[babylonsister]

37. I'm not either, but that doesn't mean she can't be enlightened.

She was very open to the idea that she doesn't know it all and wanted facts to encourage her to think more. Hey, I can at least try to provide them.
I'm not gay or religious, but that doesn't mean I cannot understand people searching for knowledge.
Though I'm not gay or religious, I'm tolerant and accepting. If I can impart that, it's a good thing.

[Rowdyboy]

40. If nothing else, you could let her know that not all mainstream Christian

religions believe the way she does. The Episcopalians, the Quakers, the Uniterians, and many Lutherans and Presbyterians are very gay affirming and would welcome her. If she is truly inquiring and has a kind spirit, let her know there are different spiritual avenues she can folow if thats truly what she wants.

What I find especially sweet is that you, someone avowedly "non-religious" are so supportive of her in her struggle to find meaning in life. Were the shoe on the other foot, many so-called Christians would not be so accepting of her as you are.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Is she gay herself? If not, why does she care?

Perhaps you should ask her what business is it of hers, in the first place.

[babylonsister]

41. No, she's not gay. When we started having this discussion,

I brought it up because I wondered if she thought God was all-forgiving, why would gay people not be cherished under the 'all-forgiving' mantra. She's searching for answers to a lot of questions. Perhaps it's not her business, but I see nothing wrong with that.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Although I understand it's part of what passes for a lot of "religion"

The concept that being gay would even be something that needs to be "forgiven" is just -to me- beyond ludicrous.

Maybe instead of looking for a fixed set of dogma to hang her hat under, you should encourage her to do some thinking for herself. JMHO!

[and-justice-for-all]

39. "believes also that gay people are 'taught' their impulses...."

I grew up with NO gay relatives and was never exposed to Gay people. Yet I AM GAY.

She claims that Gay people are taught their impules yet she is seeking an impulse, a religious impulse that has to be taught. Religion has no functional purpose anymore, its basic function is doministic and to dumb people down. She really does not need a religion, what she needs is someone she can discuss things with that are a concern to her. She is seeking a religion because she is looking for something, she may even feel a little troubled about something...

Religion is poison and I highly recommend that you detour her away from it.

[babylonsister]

43. Just as I won't trash the idea of homosexuality, I won't

trash the idea of religion. It's not for me to decide who believes what, but I love her and would like to try to educate her.

[SmokingJacket]

44. You might try finding actual gay people, or writings of gay people.

I have two or three close gay friends who have described knowing they were gay from the time they were four or five. One male friend freaked his family out by always drawing himself in a dress.

I remember reading a terrific website by a guy describing how he was called "fag" at seven years old -- not only did he know he was different, so did everyone else.

Believing that gayness is learned or a choice is just ornery, at this point. If she really *is* open, I'm sure you can send her some convincing material.

[LostinVA]

45. Seriously: see if there's a PFLAG chapter in her area

That is a GREAT resource for exactly what you'd like to teach her. She can talk to parents, friends, etc. of gays. Also, some posters have made some great suggestions for book resources on this thread.

[babylonsister]

47. Thanks for all your thoughtful replies. I'm better equipped now

that I was yesterday to talk logically. An open mind is a terrible thing to waste!;-)

[mnhtnbb]

49. Get her to do some reading.

Jack Drescher is a very well-known person in the field. Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/Psychoanalytic-Therapy-Man-Jack-Drescher/dp/0881632082/sr=1-3/qid=1159822405/ref=sr_1_3/104-2973381-8363964?ie=UTF8&s=books

And gay equality from an equal rights point of view, regardless whether it's "in your genes" or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Identity-Case-Gay-Rights-Analogies/dp/0226712095/sr=8-2/qid=1159822737/ref=sr_1_2/104-2973381-8363964?ie=UTF8&s=books

I know these are pricey books. If you're near a public university, she might be able to access them there. On the other hand, if this is an important issue to your dil, then maybe she ought to spend some money to educate herself.

[mnhtnbb]

50. PS-We didn't teach our oldest boy to be gay. His brother isn't