My Crisis of Faith

[MrCoffee]

I cannot let go of this fact, that the Senate Democratic leadership gave away the ability to filibuster yesterday in a Unanimous Consent agreement that ended debate without a cloture vote. In exchange for surrendering, the Democrats earned the privilege to introduce the Levin - Kennedy - Rockefeller - Byrd amendments, not one of which had a snowball's chance in hell of passing. They gave away their only hope, their one chance, the silver bullet that could have stopped this abomination from becoming law.

The UC did two things. First, it let the pukes know that a party-line vote would defeat the Specter amendment, which was the only one they really cared about, because it was the only one with any hope of passing. Second, it allowed the pukes to appear magnanimous by graciously permitting the Democrats to bring their amendments to the floor, amendments that had no hope of passing.

There are 44 Democratic Senators, and 1 Independent (Jeffords). That's 44 Democratic votes (I'm not including Lieberman). They can defeat a cloture vote with 41 votes. They had the votes to filibuster, if they wanted to. But they didn't. They sold the filibuster for nothing. For nothing at all. The debates, the votes, the strident voices of Kennedy, Leahy, Levin, Clinton, Obama...they were pointless from the beginning. They weren't meant to. Theater.

ALL of the Democratic Senators were complicit in this. The only justification appears to be that they didn't want to appear "soft on terror" during a campaign. I'm trying, I really am, but I cannot condone actions on the floor of the United States Senate that lead to the desecration of the Constitution as a campaign tactic. ALL are complicit in this.

Hence my crisis of faith. I want to believe again, but it's harder today than it was in 2000, and in 2004.

Thanks for letting me rant.

[debbierlus]

1. It is unacceptable, and I am sick and tired of the excuses

I was listening to Sam Seder (whom I adore), and he had a reporter on who basically was saying the dems wouldn't touch it because they were afraid they would appear soft on terrorism. This guy was one of those Washington insider people who knows the lobbyists, the aides to the Congress people, and executive aides....

So, he wasn't speculating. He was repeating what he heard from the sources who work with the Congress.

Anyway, the point is that the dems abidicated their duty again. And, again, people on this board come up with moot arguments about why they couldn't or why we should forgive them.

I called Senator Kerry's office and asked if Kerry was going to show the same leadership he did with the Alito filibuster. The answer: No. His colleagues wouldn't go along. I said that it didn't matter, someone needed to stand up and if Kerry wanted to be President, he should act Presidential in the face of this crisis. The aide told me that he was doing everything he could. I asked...what is he doing? She said, he is doing everything he can...I said, Can you give me specifics...She said....I don't have any information I can give you.

She then became a complete bitch. Man, if that were my aide, I would fire her azz. I know it is a tough job, but that is what she is hired to do. I wasn't rude (until the last sentence), but I was insistent that I get some real answers. She couldn't give them.

The dems need to fight tooth and nail. They didn't even try. I am disgusted. I will support individual canidates who support true leadership and will truly fight. But, no more donations to the dems as a party. I would leave it, if there was a choice.

[MrCoffee]

3. I'm honestly heart-sick over this issue...

I live in Washington state, and the thought of voting for Maria Cantwell is almost as unbearable as the thought of not voting for her.

I hate this.

[Matariki]

12. I'm here with you on that one

Maria Cantwell has been a let down as many times as she's done good.

[Niche]

2. I hear you Mrcoffee - I remember my feelings that day (the 13 or was

it 14?) who stood up and "made that filibuster deal"... it just makes me so angry. It is a crisis of faith, loss of faith. Complicit? Yes. It just keeps happening, keeps getting further away, keeps compounding.... it's beyond my comprehension. Are they complicit or in some washington-mind-meld bubble? Both?

[MrCoffee]

4. I don't have an answer...

i wish i did. i want to understand why the Senate Democrats postured themselves the way they did, and i want to be able to accept the reason.

i honestly don't know if i can.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. That's okay- they'll ban flag burning and smutty video games.

feel better?

[MrCoffee]

7. thanks for kicking me while i'm down. i appreciate it.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. Sorry, man. Really.

Listen, sooner or later someone's going to figure out that this milquetoast, half-assed shit isn't doing anyone any favors. When that happens, the Nation and the world will be better for it, because we'll finally get some fresh ideas for a change.

[MrCoffee]

10. whatever. you couldn't be bothered to read the OP, or you're an

insensitive ass. so thanks for stopping by.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Sure thing.

But what makes you think I didn't read your OP? And what is it you want, anyway, out of this thread? News Flash: I'm pissed off, too, Jack. What more are you looking for?

[Bluerthanblue]

6. more than faith don't you think??? faith is

something you "hope" for- believe without any substantial proof-

TRUST, now, that is something you have a reason to expect has a ...'decent' chance at happening.

I along with you, was stupid enough to place my TRUST in human beings who 'talk' like they share the same values about life that I do- but who, by voting as they did, by NOT filibustering this fucking bill so that AT THE VERY LEAST the Mainstream MEDIA couldn't NOT report on it- I mean, for god's sake I've heard more about Barbies pooping dog, than about the rape of America's core values that was approved of last night.

If "how it appears" is what drives the politicians of our nation, if THAT trumps integrety, morality, conscience, and justice, then the war is long over, and america is lost to us forever.....

I wish I could offer you encouragement, but honesty and speaking the truth, no matter how ugly it is, means a lot to me.

Trust, easily lost, and often never regained....

I'm sorry- so sorry for this pitiful offering of solidarity


blu er than blue

[MrCoffee]

9. This feels so much worse than a breach of trust...

I've been a loyal Democrat my whole life. My dad was an air traffic controller when Reagan fired them all. I've voted straight Dem in every election since I was 18. I founded a College Democrats chapter in undergrad because there wasn't one where I went to school. I worked on state and federal campaigns, with MoveOn and PFAW/Election Protection.

I've been let down dozens of times by the Democratic Party. It's never felt like this.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. i guess i don't

have much 'faith' in humans to begin with, so it doesn't surprise me, when we let each other down so frequently, and selfishly.

Trust though, is something I usually base at least in part on a persons past performance, and the way they do what they say they will- and in this, my foolish .....my shrink would call it "magical thinking" got in the way- i believed the 'less bad guys' would come through- and they didn't- and i hate that people can be so cold, selfish and shortsighted.

I'm sorry you are so understandably disillusioned, and frustrated. Investing so much of yourself into something only to be betrayed in the crucial moment is devastating.

I don't understand anything anymore.

[blm]

11. MY bet is a few moderate Repubs indicated support for Dem amendments and

then failed to follow through. The moderate Repubs get USED by BushInc on every judicial issue. The Dem problem is that they have to stop trusting ANY Republican - even the ones who pretend to fight WITH them.

[MrCoffee]

15. Perhaps...but

would you trust any Repuke with something as vitally important as habeas? I certainly would not. If Harry Reid is *only* a gullible fool, maybe I'll sleep tonight.

[blm]

20. You heard Specter and some thought Snowe and Collins were defecting

as of Wednesday night.

I'll bet they put themselves up as leaning towards the Dem amendments. They ALL need to go, in my book. Even the moderates - they only pretend for the sake of appearances, anyway.

[AzDar]

13. Mr. Coffee, I posted this a couple of times yesterday: First, we get

rid of the Fascists. THEN, we get rid of their ENABLERS.
We can do this...

[MrCoffee]

17. But i'm not sure i can tell the difference anymore...and i hate that!

I've NEVER been a third-party "there's no difference between Dems and Pukes". Ever. I am as staunchly loyal to the Democratic Party as anyone. But when they all (Senate Dems) collude to shred the Constitution...

[AzDar]

18. You have a point, there. Personally, I feel Harry Reid is weak, and

NOT leadership material.

[lyonn]

14. Oh the games they play up there on the Hill

Many of us just want some Real answers. We won't get any. The Alito vote was the clincher. He was a no brainer for Dems. to vote no on.

The repubs have got it figured out. Get a small group of repubs to object to something, like torture, than act like they made a good deal. Just like the filibuster bs for those sorry judges. What did they call it, the gang of 8?

[MrCoffee]

19. That's the only other explanation i can come up with...

is that they let McCain/Graham/Specter fight their battles for them.

This is what passes for Democratic leadership? John McCain?

[LSK]

21. how much of it was Reids doing and how much was it all of them??

If Reid made the agreement, could one Democratic Senator force the cloture vote or was it not in his power?

[MrCoffee]

23. It seems like unanimous consent requires all of them to toe the party

line, for a while anyway. Which is why the argument that they didn't have the votes to hold the floor doesn't hold any water.

[HardRocker05]

22. Lost my faith a long time ago. nt

[Poll_Blind]

25. Kick. 2 more recs needed. n/t

PB

[Poll_Blind]

26. Thank you to whomever recced, just one more now! n/t

PB

[Greyhound]

27. So once again, we get the honor of going to the polling place and

casting a vote for the evil of two lessors.

Sure I'll do it, but as far as I'm concerned, until the people rise up and with the conviction of righteousness, scream "enough!", this nation is dead. :grr:

[scarletwoman]

28. Yeah, I'll do it too. But I'm really getting tired of being played for a

sucker.

I must admit, I've got it easier than lots of other DUers around the country. My representative is truly a good Dem, I wouldn't trade him for anyone, and my state's senate race is for an open seat -- so I can vote for a Dem who hasn't already been in DC screwing us over (yet).

But overall, this "lesser of two evils" crap has gone on far too long. Funny thing, all we seem to get out of faithfully going along with it election after election is just MORE evil!

sw

[DaveT]

29. YOUR PREMISE:

There are 44 Democratic Senators, and 1 Independent (Jeffords). That's 44 Democratic votes (I'm not including Lieberman). They can defeat a cloture vote with 41 votes. They had the votes to filibuster, if they wanted to.

Did you notice what the final tally was? They did NOT have the votes to filibuster and your claim to the contrary is simply an error.

What makes you think that all the Democrats are responsible for the failure of Party Unity?

Why do you "blame" the Senators who did vote against this?



And now that your "faith" is gone, what do you propose?

I never had any "faith" in Mary Landrieu or Jay Rockefeller in the first place. Did you? If so, I understand your disappointment. Now you should be wiser.

Beyond that, what?

[Poll_Blind]

30. Are you implying that the 12 that voted for would have done so...

...even if it meant breaking their own party's ability to filibuster? Can you explain?

PB

[DaveT]

34. yes

It is MUCH harder to get a politician to stick with a filibuster than it is to get them to vote NO.

The political calculation that makes Landrieu vote for this bill would multiply a hundred fold if she were to help shut down the business of the Senate by suporting a filibuster.

This is why Reid had no chance to organize a filibuster -- I'm not claiming that I know whether or not he even brought it up, but it is painfully obvious that the votes to stand up to this "terrorism" bogeyman just weren't there.

You can't blame him or the other Democratic politicians because of their inability to force Party discipline. Such discipline does not exist in the American political system.

This is the way Congress always operates no matter who is in the majority. That is why a filibuster by the minority is a rarely used tactic.

[Poll_Blind]

36. First, thank you for the reply. I don't have much beyond that to add...

..., I'm still trying to digest the mechanics of this. I can't say I agree or disagree but it does sound more than plausable.

  It also seems that the burden of this choice lies, again, on the backs of those who voted for it. How likely would it have been that Reid would have called a filibuster on this if the 12 had been on board? In your opinion, anyway.

Thanks,

PB

[DaveT]

41. I really don't know about that.

I don't know that much about Reid's level of commitment.



It is clear to me, though, that the zeitgeist among the Democratic politicians in general is that they can't win this fall's election by taking up this challenge.

It is important to remember that this is not a national election for control of the Congress. It is a contest in a handful of states for the Senate and maybe 30 or so districts in the House. All of these battlegrounds are, by definition, in purple territory. And we are trying to knock off incumbents, which is even harder to do.

Even if we could put together a national campaign that carried 55% or so of the general public in support of our quaint Constitution, it does not necessarily follow that that we would win in these "in play" races.

I urge you to consider the possibility that the politicians are not just idiots and whores. They have to raise obscene amounts of money and that makes all of them somewhat of a prostitute, but there are other considerations that they must not ignore.


If they did mount a filibuster and then lost the cloture vote by a vote like 62-38, two things would have happened --

1. The law would pass anyway, except now it would call massive attention to the Bush "victory" and convert the national aspect of those Congressional elections from being about our winning issues of GOP corruption, the Iraq war and the poor performance of the so-called economic recovery into a referendum on whether we should respect the rights of terrorists. This is precisely why the GOP pushed this bill -- they desperately need to dredge up their old friend, "terror" to divert attention from all the issues that have led to their dismal polling numbers this fall.

2. The Democrats would have "lost again" on a major issue -- reinforcing yet again the general feeling that the Democrats are a bunch of disunited nimrods who can't do anything right. Sure the GOP sucks, but the Dems are even worse.


It is always satisfying to your sense of self-respect to "take a stand on principle" when you are facing a losing battle -- and almost always really stupid. As bad as the situation is today, it could be worse, and I urge you to consider that possibility that it WOULD be worse if the Dems had stirred up a ruckus on this issue and then got a humiliating ass whipping.

If the GOP were to retain the Congress, it would pretty well cement a Conventional Wisdom that Bush Won Again by tearing up the Constitution, and the odds for undoing this damage would be much, much longer.

I do not ask you to necessarily agree with this line of reasoning -- only to recognize that there is another side to this story other than Democrats betraying your trust.


As an amateur on the outside looking in, if I were in Reid's shoes, I would have contacted Colin Powell to see if he would be willing to take a public stand in favor of the filibuster. And then I would recruit as many retired Brass Hats as possible to join in the fray.

Without that kind of support, my opinion is that we would get our asses handed to us in a fight over this "terror" bullshit -- and I would have let the Repukes pass their stinking bill.

This ain't beanbag. And there are consequences to losing that go beyond our own sense of self respect.

[Poll_Blind]

42. Well I don't agree. I see your point though and understand how...

...some of the politicians would be unable to resist the course of action you describe. There's a video in another reply to your same message I just found/finished watching where Ted Kennedy laments greatly not being able to get the 12 on board for a filibuster, otherwise there would have been one.

  By the way, my and others' biggest single gripe about the Democratic Party is that it's been playing politics for far too long and that it hasn't defined itself as "standing for something" or offering a real alternative to Bush. While I recognize and understand your points on the political fallout if this had gone the filibuster route, I also worry about the ramifications among voters after this success by the GOP.

  I have no idea, come 2008, what our presidential candidate is going to stand up at that podium during the convention and convincingly present to undecideds or moderate Conservatives. All too frequently, there is a tone of acquiescence in the Democratic Party which is pre-packaged for exploitation by the same candidate, but on the conservative side, in 2008.

I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence. ~Frederick Douglass

PB

[Poll_Blind]

40. Well, I just saw Ted Kennedy's comments regarding this exact point.(VIDEO)

  And it agrees explicitly with your characterization of the events. Right here (have to watch a commerical to see it). It may not load correctly, this is from a very recent DU thread and it may be overloaded at the moment. It's from this article. He's responding to the question (and you can also search on this on the page to find possibly a better link to the video than mine):

Treatment of detainees

Several readers wrote in about the treatment of terrorism detainees, with comments coming both before and after the Senate approved new rules covering interrogation and trials of terrorism suspects. Sen. Kennedy was one of 34 senators voting against, and he blasted the passage as a political feint by the Republicans ahead of the midterm elections. One reader asked:

"Dear Senator Kennedy, I really am at a loss to express my shock and outrage at the passive response the Democratic has demonstrated to the current bill being bullied and pushed through by the Bush White House and their GOP enablers. Please explain why torture in America is being written into law and you and your colleagues are not completely flipping out and freezing all business in the Senate?"

  So basically the politcs of these 12 are responsible for making a filibuster impossible. There would have been one if they had gone along with leadership. It restores some of my faith in Democratic Leadership. Thank you.

PB

[Karenina]

43. The SYSTEM is BROKEN.

When CORE VALUES are subjected to such "political" nonsense, the SYSTEM no longer reflects those values. I'm being optimistic here, babe. ;-)

[Poll_Blind]

44. I hear ya. I'm not trying to be snarky here, I really believe this, but..

...I don't think we would even attempt to stop legislation short of deifying Bush unless there were enough Republicans on board to make it a certainty (and thus free from political fallout) that we wouldn't fail in the effort. That fixation with "only playing games you can win" shows that something is seriously wrong with mores or ideology or both.

PB

[Greyhound]

46. So it's OK that careerism trumps honor, principle, morality, and law?

I guess we're lucky that 1776 wasn't an election year... :think:

This is exactly why tens of millions won't vote for us, no matter how terrible the re:puke:s are.

[Ksec]

31. I wouldnt put my faith in politicians.

Thats like trusting the devil.

Some politicians have scruples or morals but I still wouldnt waste any faith on them. Theyre too self serving . Put your faith in yourself.

[chill_wind]

32. I hear you MC. Hard to get past this shock and grief of September 28

In less than 2 days, a lot of people all around us seem done with it. Done processing it, seem ready, able and eager to move along.

We all grieve in our own ways and at our own pace, I guess. I am still in the first stages. And I am just still so goddam angry. Alternately depressed, disbelieving and ANGRY.

[Poll_Blind]

33. Yeah, I was noticing that this morning. Happy to trot on to the next...

...topic. Interestingly, I didn't see what I presumed would be a rash of threads about how, mechanically, you dismantle this bullshit and set things right after we get back into power. The one message I did see on the topic, which contained more substance than (paraphrased) "Oh, we'll fix it when we get back into power." was from the absolutely indispensable Jack Rabbit with this. It's not pretty, though.

  I'm not done processing this either. This is a very big development with long-term implications. It's not another white girl missing in Aruba, shark attack or even Republican sex-antics story. This is about us losing some serious, basic Constitutional Rights.

  And it's not over yet, legislatively. See this thread on "The Public Expression of Religion Act". How many times are we going to have to go through this same dance again?

PB

[chill_wind]

35. I think he has it exactly right, except for his optimism,

guarded as it might be, about the International Courts (jack rabbit). It's more optimism than mine, mainly because of the writings of an eminent historian and expert on Nuhremberg (his writings were posted here by DUer) who, while advocating that there was clearly a strong case to be had, deemed it unlikely due to the state of the world courts and outlined why.

But then again, that was written some months well before the stark events of Sept 28. Stakes have changed.

[Poll_Blind]

38. I don't want to speak for Mr. Rabbit, simply because I don't have..

...the skill, intelligence and experience to do so, but...

  There have been a whole slew of messages saying, and you know this because I know you've been in those threads, "All we have to do to make this better is just get a majority and everything's going to be 'fixed'." What you read as optimism I read as a sarcastic response to those who give such a pat answer as to how we get ourselves out of this mess.

  Either way you read it though it shows the complexity of what lies ahead of us in confronting and dealing with this, now that it's been done.

PB

[chill_wind]

45. That complexity is the bottom line.

And it's become amply evident that our average msm media-fed-and-conditioned America doesn't do complexity real well these days.

[chill_wind]

37. And I just now read the other thread-- ProSense's!

A lot of stuff is falling off the radar. Just k&R'd. Thanks for these links, PB.

[Poll_Blind]

39. You're sincerely welcome. I'd posted a much longer reply to you...

...which included some backstory, which I'm sure is already familiar to yourself, about why so many are having problems choking this one down, but decided it wiser just to delete it and avoid the risk. Cryptic, sorry.

PB