The joy of living in gated communities

[question everything]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange/la-me-coto23jan23,0,6739967.story?coll=la-editions-orange

From the Los Angeles Times

Answer to Speeding Problem Is Slow to Get to Coto de Caza

The unincorporated, gated community, facing a rising crash rate, seeks an enforcement strategy that residents are willing to live with.
By Daniel Yi
Times Staff Writer

January 23, 2006

The recent crash that killed a speeding teenager in a gated south Orange County enclave left behind skid marks and a devastated family and has rekindled debate about traffic control that mirrors concerns in private communities throughout the state.

Residents of gated neighborhoods have long complained about speeding and reckless driving. Because the streets are private, such neighborhoods are not entitled to traffic patrol by police, and many drivers feel emboldened to disregard stop signs and posted speed limits, residents say.

(snip)

So the homeowners association contracted with the California Highway Patrol. The community spent about $85,000 for a traffic survey and state-approved traffic signs on most of its roughly 10 miles of main roads where the maximum posted speed is 50 mph. In the first year, 2001, the CHP issued 1,154 tickets. But the service cost Coto about $100,000 a year.

"It was extortion," said Bob Varo, president of the association board. "We shouldn't have to pay for something everyone else gets for free.".. Because Coto is in an unincorporated area and has private streets, it had to pay the Highway Patrol. Two years ago, when Varo and others were elected to the board, they decided not to renew the contract.

That was a big mistake, critics of the decision said. Speeds began creeping up again, residents say. Traffic crashes went from 19 in 2003, the last year the CHP patrolled Coto, to 28 in 2004. The number climbed to 30 last year, including Rianna's crash, which the CHP investigated and attributed to speeding.

(snip)

[MadHound]

1. Wall yourself off from the world,

Privatize and gate yourself in, well, don't expect to get public services for free, it's that simple. Instead, hire your own traffic cop, and the problem will become manageble again.

[cantstandbush]

43. The only people speeding trough gated communities are the people who live

there.

[Book Lover]

2. Except we don't get it for free, schmuck

Our streets are open and we have no gates. Suck up and pay or incorporate.

[Hand]

5. Schmuck indeed... it's called TAXES! Heard of them? nt

[Selatius]

3. What happened to the Repub message of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY?

If they're rich enough to live in fantastic gated communities, then they're rich enough to afford the medical payments and insurance costs for their stupidity on the roads. They get enough tax breaks as it is from the loopholes in the tax code and Bush's tax policies without asking for more services from the government.

[question everything]

48. Median price of houses in that community is $850K (nt)

[MissMarple]

4. Everyone else gets it for free?

These "never saw a tax cut I didn't love" and "privatized everything" folks need a bit of a heads up on the advantages that can be provided by a modest investment in government....like law enforcement.

I knew I should have used spellcheck.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

6. Love these parts:

"It was extortion," said Bob Varo, president of the association board. "We shouldn't have to pay for something everyone else gets for free.".. Because Coto is in an unincorporated area and has private streets, it had to pay the Highway Patrol. Two years ago, when Varo and others were elected to the board, they decided not to renew the contract.

And at the end of the article:
Removing the gates is not an option for the current board either.
"That's not going to happen," Varo said. "We don't want to lose our privacy."

Fracking deal with it, then. You want to live away from the rest of the world in your hermetically-sealed community, then you patrol your own damn roads. Or you pay for the CHP to enforce the laws.

It's a damn shame that some teenager had to lose his life before this community would re-visit the debate about traffic control in their gated community. (Or am I reading the story wrong?) I feel ill now.

[MADem]

7. Stupid, rich, cheap bastards

Too cheap to cough up, and whining when it ends up costing them more than they would have saved.

The idiots could have solved the problem cheaply--since that was their goal--with strategic installation of 'sleeping policemen' (speed bumps) on the straightaways where the speeding was an issue. Hey, if you live there, you know where the sleeping policeman is, and know enough to slow down to ease over the hump. Put enough of them in the problem areas, and the problem goes away.

[sui generis]

10. yeesh - lotta stereotypes happenin' here.

1. Everyone who lives in a gated community is rich
2. gated communities are inherently evil
3. people who live in gated communities are defective

I don't, BUT a condo is a "gated" community, some section 8 housing here in Dallas is gated and many apartments are gated too, with and without live gate security.

I completely agree about speed bumps - but all this "you got what you deserve" stuff in other posts doesn't sound fully informed to me.

[GumboYaYa]

17. I live in a gated neighborhood.

It was built as a multi-use neighborhood in the 1920's. My neighborhood has homes that range from $1.0 million plus to four family apartments, with every range of housing in between. The neighborhood is ringed with mixed use-commercial real estate. Inside our neighborhood, I operate a public garden where many residents produce much of their own food. It is a walkable community, so much so that I don't have a car. It also happens to be one of the strongest Democratic precincts in the State of Missouri.

So much for the stereotypes.

[Catherine Vincent]

20. Oh, that sounds so nice.

A democratic gated community. :thumbsup:

[MADem]

25. It ain't the GATING that is the issue, it is the Gate plus Unincorporated

Entity that is the problem. These guys do not want to cough up for government services because their roads are private, their property is private, and they don't want to support the public services with cold hard cash in exchange for said services.

Do you have police and fire services? Are they private, or can the local cops come into the community? If the latter, than some deal has been worked out with the local government, or you are paying taxes and getting the services in return.

[GumboYaYa]

38. We pay to maintain our streets and sidewalks.

We also have a park in the neighborhood, and we share the costs of that with the city and a local school that uses the park. We do get police and fire service. We get no reduction in our taxes, but do pay a neighborhood fee for maintenace of the areas we are responsible for. I have no problem with any of that. I love my neighborhood and feel the extra costs are worth having such a great community in which to live.

The only reason I even said anything is to show that painting with a broad brush is not always accurate.

[hedgehog]

35. Hey - tell us more.

It sounds like the alternative to suburban living a lot of us are looking. Does this place have a name? Is there anything written up about it?

[GumboYaYa]

40. I live in University City, Missouri.

It is a very unique community. There is no majority race or religion here. The neighborhood is very walkable and all of the businesses we use are locally owned. I despise big box stores.

I frequently say that I am fortunate to live in one of the best places in America for progressives. We are close to the local universities so lots of the residents are professors and such. I think that is the genesis for being so progressive.

[sandnsea]

44. University City is unincorporated

Which is not the same thing as a gated community. There are gated communities IN Univesity City, like University Hills. There are alot of unincorporated areas that rely on county services instead of the expense of a separate and complete city government. St. Louis is a weird hodge podge of communities, I have relatives in St. Ann's and Overland and other places and I don't think they're incorporated either. But they sure aren't gated communities.

[GumboYaYa]

57. We live in University Hills.

in University City. I think I know my neighborhood.

U City is incorporated as a city. It has its own fire department and police force. I am helping run the campaign of one of the candidates for mayor, so I know a little about the municipal structure.

[sandnsea]

58. I see

Hey, some people don't know the differences. I didn't think University City, itself, was a complete gated community and that's what I understood your post to say.

[Solon]

63. I don't remember gates in University hills myself...

drove by there almost every day, just reminds me of neighborhoods that have to have names, and had an island to separate the two lanes of the only enterance. My idea of a gated community would be those off of Delmar, a little closer to city hall. You know, neighborhoods with guard houses and gates, electronic security etc. in order to even enter the neighborhood. We have a shitload where I live now, in St. Charles county, big McMansions, most less than a decade old, tacky, and when I sold Ice Cream out of a truck they were OFF LIMITS(Caps on purpose). They also have signs that say "Private Street" usually its carved into wood and painted, looking like a Boy Scout's sign.

I lived there for a year, and loved the variety, compared to St. Charles that is, my roommates and I lived across the street from a Korean Catholic Church, a Japanese restaurant, and a Synogogue was a block away. Still hang out at the Loop occasionally when I have the time.

[sandnsea]

65. Here too

You have to push in a button code to get in, which they change every month. We even have manufactured home retirement gated communities. I don't get home to St. Louis that often, but there aren't any gated communities where any of my family lives. Not even the ones in St. Charles. We just never did figure out that movin' on up thing I guess!

[Solon]

67. Yeah, either keycodes or swap cards...

I remember one time when I took a wrong turn at, I think it was near Ferguson, and ended up at a freakin gate for one of these communities, it had a swap card for you to drive up to. Anyways, I was barely able to turn around, it was barely the width of a two lane road. That reminds me of something else I did once, one time I drove a co-worker home from work, after 10 pm, to Belleville. Anyways, I never been there, and soon got lost on the way back home, next thing I know, I'm at Scott's Airforce Base, one of the entrances! I kindly explained to the soldiers at the double gate that I was lost and I needed to get back to the nearest highway. He was nice and gave me directions, then he let me in the first gate so I could use the turn around gap that the little island his guard point was situated on had. There were two gates, the one I was allowed to pass and the one further ahead that remained closed. That situation actually freaked me out a little, especially with all the lights.

[Solon]

59. Hey, I used to drive all over the place around Hanley road there...

I lived off of Olive, right next to 170, in U-City city limits, a stone's throw away from Olivette. You live across the high school, don't you? My mom went there, 30+ years ago. Actually, My Grandmother worked in the U-City Hall near the loop from the 1960s to 1992(3rd retirement :)).

[GumboYaYa]

74. I'm a stones throw from Flynn Park School.

We lived next to the high school in our last house (Amherst & Hanley). I have been buying and rehabbing old homes in U City for 10 years now. We love the area. The Hills is gated, but the area and people who live here are definitely not the same type as the "gated " communities of St. Charles and other similar places. My wife's Mom grew up in U City around 30 years ago. Her whole family lived there until they moved out to the burbs. I wonder if they knew your family.

One sad note, U City Foods on Delmar closed this year.

[GumboYaYa]

75. Dupe n/t

[hedgehog]

23. I disagree

A "gated community" to me implies more than a gate with a security guard. It also implies a certain income level with covenant restrictions regarding upkeep. The overall effect is to create an upper middle class oasis. A gated community may not be racially segregated, but is certainly is economically segregated. There is a difference between a gated community and section 8 housing with a security guard at the door.

[sui generis]

26. However you choose to view gated communities

I have extreme distrust of the judgementalism and generalizations I hear here about them.

I know they are all over the economic spectrum, and that there are perfectly valid reasons for wanting to live in one, whether we agree with them or not. There are perfectly valid reasons for not wanting to live in one either, but judgements to either side are out of place here.

Some days it feels like we're about to break out the guillotines and round up anyone wearing a powdered wig here.

[northzax]

45. of course there are perfectly valid reasons to live in one

the primary reason being that there are gates that keep people, including the police, out. If you don't care about security, why have the gates?

[ebayfool]

70. The covenant restrictions can be very restrictive. I have a client who was

in one of the local McMansion gated communities, she got ticketed by the homeowner's association for tardiness in doing their backyard landscaping (shared a fence w/the private golf course ... big no-no when it didn't get planted out!). I asked her, after @ the third notice, "why don't we just get out there w/a shovel & flats & do it - what's the big deal?". She said they had to submit a list of plants & garden plans to the association architect for approval before planting a single blade of grass!

Needless to say, after that I bugged - regularly - to let me go out back & put in corn! Lots & lots of corn! A nice, tall cornfield ... right on the 9th hole!

Her hubby wouldn't go for it - no sense of humor!
:rofl:

[MADem]

32. No, but people who live in gated communities who don't want to pay for

public services like everyone else ARE stupid, rich, cheap and greedy. Folks who live in condos or apartments have the benefit of police services, which are paid for with their tax dollars. It's apples and oranges--the gate itself is not the issue, the use of the gate to 'get out of' paying for government services is the crux of the matter.

The people in the article cited above are cheap idiots. Ya wanna play, ya gotta pay....

[JHB]

37. Yeah, lotta stereotypes, but they're acting to type...

Thye may not be actually rich or evil, but they're acting spot on to the stereotype of those who would choose to live in "gated communities" ("What community? I got mine, screw all you whining freeloading bastards who just want to stick your hands in my wallet (and that's all of you, 'cause it's only me and people like me who WORK for a living)!").

They live in a place thet purposely does not have its streets open to the public, and then balk at footing the bill to properly police them AND complain that "everyone else gets it for free" (conveniently forgetting about a little something called "taxes").

They are the ones who want to receive a service without paying for it, as if it came down as manna from heaven, acting in every sense like their stereotype of the people outside their gated little slice of heaven.

[question everything]

52. This community is quite wealthy, residing on an area of 8 sq. miles

with 4000 homes of $850K Median Price. With a lot more private roads than any of the examples you cited.

[never_get_over_it]

55. I live in a gated community in FL

I'm not rich - or cheap. I didn't move here to block out the world I moved here because I happened to like this particular house the most of the ones I looked at. I personally hate the gates, think they are stupid and a big wast because guess what about five cars can tail gate their way in on one opening.

[Nicole]

11. They did have speed bumps

Eight years ago, the homeowners association installed speed bumps but was forced to remove them from the main roads because the county Fire Authority complained they interfered with emergency response times.

[CottonBear]

14. Speed bumps are used in parking lots and speed humps are traffic

calming devices. The humps do not slow down emergency traffic. Many cities, including mine, use a series of speed humps along with mini-roundabouts, intersection curb bumpouts and chicanes in order to slow traffic in residential areas. The UK uses these measures extensively.

[MADem]

36. Yep, there is a difference--one requires that you stop and ease over

it, the other just gives you a bit of a toss if you go over it too fast. I lived in the UK and the humps I encountered never interfered with trucks or emergency access, but they did stop little punks from screaming about in their crappy little Fiestas!

[CottonBear]

56. Exactly! Traffic calming works and allows emergecy access too! n/t

[question everything]

49. Speed Bumps interfere with emergency respone time

From the same story

Eight years ago, the homeowners association installed speed bumps but was forced to remove them from the main roads because the county Fire Authority complained they interfered with emergency response times.

"I immediately noticed people speeding again," Glisson said.

[Gormy Cuss]

8. Umm, there are a few solutions that come to mind.

---attached to an incorporated community. Sure, everyone's property tax will go up but police services will be a benefit in return/
---- become a community service district and pay for it out of those funds. That will mean new fees for the homeowners too. (The article mentions that this is under consideration.)

In other words, it's going to cost you. The only thing left to figure out is what is the most economical solution for this community.

[MidwestTransplant]

9. I knew a guy who said he just wanted to live in a gated community and not

worry about anybody else.

Don't really talk to him anymore!

[Catherine Vincent]

12. He'll still have neighbors.

Imo, the best privacy neighborhood is having a house in the country.

[hedgehog]

15. You'll always have neighbors.

The wonderful part about living in the country is that people from the city and suburbs assume that if the land is out of sight of a house, it belongs to no one and is somehow part of the "wild".

[pitohui]

28. yeah and they can dump their pets they're tired of or feral cats on it

or they can go hunting on it

[Kali]

24. bwahahahahahha

I get more idiots at my house in the middle of nowwhere than ever bothered me when I lived one block from a major crosstown road in Tucson.


"uh we've been coming here for years" Yeah well I don't know you, get the F out of here.

"I knew your dad" I doubt it, he never lived here.

"Isn't this public/state land?" No and even if it was state land doesn't mean you have a right to just cruise around at will....

"Is this the road to...?" Is that what the sign at the beginning of the road said, moron?

"We are here to talk to you about Jeeezussss" Good can I talk about Darwin?

"Would you be interested in selling 10 acres?" No, that's why there aren't any land for sale signs....

[Catherine Vincent]

34. Really?

I'll have to ask my brother if he gets a lot of strays at his house. I love visiting his house because it seem so peaceful there.

[hedgehog]

41. I've got a better story

How about the people who were picking apples out of a working farmer's orchard and ended up accusing the farmer of going overboard when he insisted on having them arrested? They also used the claim - well, your father always let us...

[Kali]

46. and then sue the farmer when some dumb kid cuts his finger.....

This is what causes old guys in the country to be crotchety! But don't shoot strangers, they just keep comimg. The trick is to shoot AT (miss) some local like a power company guy or the like so he will go around and tell everybody in the county about that crazy old bird that shot at him.....see how it works?



disclaimer: I have not yet ever shot at anybody, but there were rumors of my Grandfather doing it, and if true I am positive he knew exactly what he was doing. He was always pretty nice to strangers....heh heh

[Breeze54]

73. lmao!

Sounds like you live at my old house "in the country"...he,he,he!!
Cripes!
We had 26 cats living in our barn!!
And they all caught distemper and died!
What a 'fun day' that was....NOT!
My husband had to climb up in the loft and throw the bodies down...
oh...it was bad.......really bad!
and between the 'Jebus Sellers',"lost" hunters...IN MY BACKYARD!!!
and the dog drop-offs...gheesh!
I split and moved back to the city!
I get more rest now....and privacy!
:thumbsup:

[hedgehog]

13. Can one assume that this is a private problem?

The speeders must somehow pass through the gates to enter the community, so I assume they must be residents or guests of the residents. I wonder what the point of living in a walled community is if the problems follow you inside?

[elehhhhna]

18. my thoughts exactly. SOMEBODY's speeding.

[hatrack]

39. Nail on the head, hedgehog - problems followed them inside

And gosh, they're just shocked to make that discovery.

[TahitiNut]

54. "They have met the enemy and it is them."

The fallacy of 'exclusive' is obvious - it doesn't exclude undesirable behavior, merely 'undesirable people.' It's about bigotry - ethic, religious, or economic bigotry. It's completely fallacious to ascribe undesirable behavior to "them" and that's the very heart of bigotry. Ignorance. Prideful, arrogant, malicious ignorance.

[Nicole]

16. The residents pay property taxes

So why should they have to pay for cops to patrol? I agree with the resident who said "We shouldn't have to pay for something everyone else gets for free.

We pay millions in property taxes and we can't get a cop on our streets" without paying.

The nearest city shouldn't provide cops, if they don't pay city property taxes. The county and/& state should if that is who they pay millions in taxes to.

Disclaimer: I do NOT live in a gated community.

[CottonBear]

21. The point is that the streets are not public i.e. they were not dedicated

to the county along with the right-of-way at the time the subdivision was constructed. The private streets are owned by the residents and are maintained by the resdients. A county and or city doesn't maintain or patrol theses streets because they are private.

(I live in a townhome community with private streets. We have a main (front)entrance and exit that the general public can use and a gated rear entrance/exit for our use only. The rear gate prevents commuters and UGA students from using our neighborhood as a cut-through from one main street to another in order to avoid a signalized intersection. I also design speed humps and trafffic calming schemes for various institutional clients and private developers.)

The only requirement in a gated community is that the fire department and EMTs have accesss codes or universal pass keys to the gates.

edit: The community caopuld hire and off-duty cop to patrol the neighborhood or hire a private security firm.

[pitohui]

30. right the public can't use those streets

so public tax money should not go to paying traffic cops to patrol those streets

they can afford it, let them pay the going rate

no pity here

[MADem]

42. They could always turn the streets over to the town or county, BUT...

they'd probably end up with a tax increase, because the county or town would take over maintenance, repair, and so on, of those streets, in addition to policing duties, and then the "pesky public" (the folks many of us see when we look out our windows) would be permitted to use their streets.

[Nicole]

33. Thanks for clarifying that

I guess I'm used to things around here. I have rental property in a country subdivision & the county does patrol it. I pay HOA dues to maintain our streets, which are private. It isn't gated though.

[Odin2005]

19. But cops mean taxes, we can't have that!

:sarcasm:

[SmokingJacket]

22. Sheesh, how big are these places?

You can drive 50 mph in one? Ye gods, they must be the size of a small city.

There's a reason we have something called "public space" -- so we can all share responsibility for it AND get to use it.

If you want to keep the public at large out of your town, you have to take private responsibility for it, too. I don't think firefighters should go in, either.

If having private towns made sense, the US would have had them all along...

[hedgehog]

29. They seem to be set up to pick and choose services

Check out Kiawah Island, South Carolina. As near as I can tell, it incorporated as a town solely to ensure that it couldn't be seized by any other local government body, but the "town" government and the "private" government pretty much overlap. It gives me the heebie-jeebies. So these gated communities are private enough to keep out "outsiders" but public enough to warrant fire and police protection. They don't pay taxes to the larger community, but they do tax themselves to ensure an idyllic setting for themselves. I guess we've come quite a way from the Mayflower Compact.

[KamaAina]

47. It *is* a small city, population 13,000

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=Coto+de+Caza&_cityTown=Coto+de+Caza&_state=04000US06&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

I had no idea it had come to this -- gated cities. Ye gods!

[question everything]

53. Yes, a small city area of 8 sq. miles (nt)

[KitchenWitch]

27. People cannot have it both ways

call a wahmbulance

[hedgehog]

31. Sure they can

That's why the inner cities have been dying for the last 60 years.

[htuttle]

50. Libertarian-fantasy-land dwellers beg for government assistance

Am I understanding that right?

[stlsaxman]

51. XTC- "Respectable Street"

Just heard this not 20 minutes ago-

How apropos!

Respectable Street

Heard the neighbor slam his car door,
Don’t he realize this is respectable street?
What d’you think he bought that car for?
’cause he realize this is respectable street

Now they talk about abortions,
In cosmopolitan proportions to their daughters,
As they speak of contraception,
And immaculate receptions on their portable,
Sony entertainment centres.

Heard the neighbor slam his car door,
Don’t he realize this is respectable street?
What d’you think he bought that car for?
’cause he realize this is respectable street

Now she speak about diseases,
And which proposition pleases best her old man,
Avon lady fills the creases,
When she manages to squeeze in past the caravans,
That never move from their front gardens.

It’s in the order of their hedgerows,
It’s in the way their curtains open and close,
It’s in the look they give you down their nose,
All part of decency’s jigsaw I suppose.

Sunday church and they look fetching,
Saturday night saw him retching over our fence,
Bang the wall for me to turn down,
I can see them with their stern frown,
As they dispense the kind of look that says they’re perfect.

Heard the neighbor slam his car door,
Don’t he realize this is respectable street?
What d’you think he bought that car for?
’cause he realize this is respectable street

[Zookeeper]

68. Believe it or not, I just found that XTC album, while...

looking through my (very) old LPs for something to burn to disc. 'Nice to know someone else remembers that song, although I never thought of them as being all that political. (My favorite song from that record was "I'll Set Myself on Fire!")

[BigYawn]

60. Unincorporated areas pay lower taxes, and therefore can not expect free

services paid for by other tax payers. I live in a unincorporated
location, but not a gated community, and our property taxes are lower
than those living in incorprated areas. Therefore we can not expect
the same police and fire services as them.

[catzies]

61. Doesn't Kobe Bryant live in Coto de Caza? The house with the pirate ship

in the pond? I had a photo of it on my last hard drive. x(

[Orangepeel]

62. "We shouldn't have to pay for something everyone else gets for free."

private streets, private costs. What's so hard to understand?

My sympathies to the family of the dead teenager

[tyedyeto]

64. You wanted to live in a PRIVATE community with no public

law enforcement... either pay for it or quit your whining!

[Horse with no Name]

66. I don't have a problem with people living in gated communities

For whatever reason they choose to live in them. My mom lives in one.
However, When you put up walls and gates, it becomes private property belonging to the homeowners association as well as the tenants who live there.
If I wreck my car in the mall parking lot, the police don't respond because it is on private property.
There is no difference here.

[Catherine Vincent]

69. Well, a gated community sounds pretty good about now.

I didn't care for them before until this evening. When I returned home, I discovered my home was broken into. This is the first time this has happened to me. I had a security alarm when I first bought the house but disconnected it thinking I didn't need it so I could save a little money. It looks like I'll be calling Brinks tomorrow. :(

[Greyhound]

71. So Mc Mansion dwellers are killing and maiming each other in their

insulated environments? :shrug:What's the problem?:shrug:

[Breeze54]

72. Waaaaaa!! Poor efite snob babies!! Waaaaaa!

I have bigger fish to fry......
but

:rofl: :rofl: