Are you offended by slurs against your religion?

[Philosoraptor]

I heard a couple of guys talking about the pope insulting the Muslims, and they pointed out that its way too easy to offend Muslims, even cartoons of Muhammad offend them to murderous rioting.

But let's face it, we are all a bit thin skinned when someone knocks our religion. And lets also face the history of mankind, millions have died because they disagreed with or insulted the religions of others.

Look at mel gibson, still pissed off at the Jews all these years after the execution of Christ, holding a grudge, carrying around religious hate and spite in his heart his whole life.

Look at the middle east where they fight and die over holy sites and rusty relics, and have for millenia.

As an atheist, I'm untouched by religious insults, there are plenty of other ways to offend me. If someone insults the pope, as they often do, I'm not enraged by it at all. If someone calls southern Baptists dirty names, I am immune to the insults. If someone insults my atheism, I'm not bothered in the slightest, let alone called to violent action.

Hating a person based soley on their religion is bigotry, the same as racism. I won't take part in it, I don't hate anyone based on their religion, unless they've become violent zealots.

[phylny]

1. Nope.

I grew up Catholic and am not Methodist, and I don't care what someone else says about my religion.

[Monkeyman]

5. That goes for me too

Catholic School and football. My religion is my concern.

[liberalmike27]

125. Religion is the Problem, not the solution

I'm not offended, as religion, or the lack of it is belief, not fact. Muslims as well as Christians would do well to understand it. Sadly, they both profess one God, and apparently this God wants them to kill one-another, to listen to them speak.

They assembled the bible in 300 B.C., and who knows what went in it. Certainly the wealthy had a good deal of input as to what went into the bible, and what didn't, and as always, the wealthy made sure their fortunes were secure by what they wrote within the bible. It is a means to control people, to control the world, and to assure their fortunes as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know what is out there, and no one does. But I support the freedom of all of you, whether religious or not, to believe or not believe. It is the greatness of our country that we can do so, and this is unrealized by many Christians these days, who think we need some sort of official religion.

I suspect if Islam continues in this vein, they will lose supporters just as Christian Democrats are falling away from organized religion in the States due to their sick, perverted relationship with the Republican Party.

[dkofos]

2. Not offended

No religion.

You may be on to something here!!

[Renew Deal]

3. It depends on what is said and who says it.

Some guy told me yesterday that "the holocaust is a Democratic lie." I wasn't offended as a Democrat or a Christian because the guy is fucking nuts. What the pope repeated or Mel Gibson said were both offensive. The pope saying it makes it much worse.

[Warpy]

4. I saw some dumb commercial last night

can't even remember what it was pushing (something I never use) that featured an actor dressed like a Buddhist monk trying to push something that was completely inappropriate and acting like a clueless fool in the process.

I did have a momentary flash of irritation. Such a commercial would never feature a man with a reverse collar, or a Rabbi, or a Catholic nun, or the Pope, or anything Judeo-Christian.

Apparently only SOME systems out there are worthy of respect.

[Felinity]

9. Hmmmm. Was it at least humorous?

Actually my religion demands members "refute erroneous teachings" that "slander the law" but that applies more to theological argument.

Insults are just somebody's stupidity being confirmed.

Being offended is counter productive.

[Warpy]

18. Not particularly

If it had been funny I might not have been as irritated by it.

Not only did it display a fundamental hypocrisy, it wasn't very good at it.

[Felinity]

44. Response #12 describes the commercial

I remember seeing it now. I think at the time I found it minimally humorous, but not too memorable, obviously.

I had a friend in grad school who did a storyboard for advertising class, about the last supper (he was Jewish). I thought it was hysterically funny, with the waiter coming in with the bill and Judas offering to treat everyone. Then JC pulls out his AMEX card, the closeup with imprinting sound effects showing Jesus H. Christ as the card-holder. The voice-over says, "When you're out of cash, or just out of money, the American Express card can be your Saviour."

For some reason many of the students in the class were offended, while I at the time thought it ridiculous to assume that Jesus would not have a sense of humor. Spiritual Masters are usually quite giggly.

Edit to correct response # in subject.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

12. It's David Caridine pushing Yellow Book .com

He is playing a Buddhist monk and the fundamentalist Christian upbringing I had tells me that as a Buddhist I should be offended. But the problem was the commercial was so damn funny that I couldn't stop laughing long enough to be offended.

[ShortnFiery]

41. But Pizza does make me "happy"! :P

<tease!>

Seriously, I understand your underlying point. :hi:

I tried my best catch the latest episode of his series in the 70's (Kung Fu) because he would go out of his way to avoid physical conflict, but those mean ole' Bad Guys would FORCE him to "kick a**." Loved it! Guilty pleasure. :blush:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

64. I do have to ask the question,

Dave, is this what you've sunk too? But it was funny. The Taliban blowing up the Buddha statues was not funny, but was a great exercise in the law of impermanence.

[immoderate]

52. Carradine instructs Tai Chi on video.

Apparently he is deep into eastern culture. For all its flaws, I thing the Kung Fu series, (the original) was positive for eastern culture.

The commercials? Well, they are a little tacky, but what commercial isn't?

--IMM

[kiahzero]

59. I think it was ripping on his typecasting more than Buddhism. (n/t)

[Freedom_from_Chains]

65. But he was typecast in Kung-Fu as a Buddhist monk. n/t

[Freedom_from_Chains]

63. Tacky makes you remember them. That's just the Western mindset

And yes, Pizza does make me happy. OOOOOmmmmmmmmmm

[ShortnFiery]

67. And you can't forget "The Classics" = Kill Bill Volumes 1 and 2!

Those are so much fun! IMO, they're the perfect Mommy-Daughter Martial Arts bonding flicks. But since then David Carradine has not had much of a mark in Hollywood. Well, other than YellowBook.com. :P

[johnaries]

69. Not Buddhist, Taoist. Taoism teaches you to laugh at

everything.
Kung Fu came from the Taoist tradition. Buddhism teaches that "Life is suffering". Taoism teaches that "Life is Joy". Everything is funny, if you have a sense of humor.
Taoist tradition teaches that Lao Zi actually taught Buddha - but Buddha never really "got it".

[Freedom_from_Chains]

75. Buddhism does not teach that life is suffering,

Buddhism teaches that there is suffering. Big difference.

[johnaries]

86. The Four Noble Truths.

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

edit to add:
Sorry if it sounds like I am "taunting" you a little. I guess I am. But I am so sick of the "Atheist vs Christian" stupid posts that I would love to have some more intelligent, thoughtful Taoist vs Budhist posts. Even though we both know that we agree a whole lot more than we disagree. Still, it would be interesting if we could kick the philosophical discussions up a notch.
:hi:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

105. I am up for kicking it up a notch

But I do have to tell you it is a common misconception that the fist of the four noble truths, dukkha, means that like is suffering, it does not. The Buddha said that " there is suffering" which no one can deny that. However, it is our choice if we wish to accept suffering, we do not, as is commonly thought, have to. Our choice which is outline in the third noble truth, Nirodha, "The cessation of dukkha."

If you want to obtain a good discourse on this I would recommend "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula. One can usually find it in the used books stores pretty cheap as it is used in a lot of intro to Buddhism college courses across the country.

[REP]

66. I Know Buddhists Who Are Very Offended By This Commercial

Personally, I thought it was a take on his Kung-Fu character (also offensive, if you think too much about it) but it does misrepresent the teachings of Buddhism. My friends would less offended if there were more realistic portrayals of Buddhists (as ordinary people, instead of spaced-out celebs or super-mystical Asians who can fly) but it stings that when they do see their religion, it's presented as the opposite of what it teaches!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

68. And if they keep practicing, one day they will get over it

along with themselves.

[REP]

72. I Am Not Fit To Judge Their Practice

I just know what they have told me, and accepted their words. I'm not a Buddhist myself.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

73. Then trust me on this one, they have a ways to go

but then again, its about the journey not the destination.

[REP]

74. I Do Not Think You Are Fit To Judge Either

Can any of us really judge another's spiritual journey, especially based on what is heard second-hand like this?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

76. If the news is correct, yes. n/t

[REP]

78. Wow, What Hubris

I was not aware than enlightenment was achieved by knowing better than everyone else and telling them so.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

79. See, you have learned something already. n/t

[REP]

81. Yes, But Not What You Think I Did

Chop wood, carry water.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

82. Excellent advice. n/t

[johnaries]

77. Again, Kung Fu has nothing to do with Buddhism.

Buddhism came later.

Actually to further clarify my previous post, Kung Fu technically was not an out growth of Taoism. Kung Fu was more directly associated with Kung fu-tze, known now as Confucious. However, Kung fu-tze or Kung fu-zi was more concerned with proper "social behavior", whereas Lao-tze or Lao-zi was more concerned with spiritual development. Many students of Kung fu-zi became followers of Lao-zi as they grew older and gained maturity and experience.

Nothing to do with Buddhism. In my opinion, the Buddhists still "don't get it". Although they do much better than most....

[REP]

80. A Lot of Chinese Really Don't Know the Series That Well

My friends are Chinese, and didn't get the TV series reference; I did. I'm 'murkin and non-Buddhist.

[johnaries]

85. That's because the series has little to do with what really happened.

I'm Murikan, too. Actually, my paternal line is Anderson and my maternal line is Campbell, so my lineage is Scottish and about as pasty-bread white as you can get! But I've done a little research.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

83. You need to recheck your history

Bodhidharma brought the practice of Kung-Fu to the Sholin temple which is where the character David Carridine played came from.

[johnaries]

84. But the Shaolin Temple was already established before

Ta Mo arrived. All he did was bring a different meditation technique to the temple.

Please do not confuse teaching techniques with philosophy.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

104. I'm not. n/t

[warrens]

127. That was David Carradine, I think

I have no idea what he was selling. Insurance, cell phone service? Some shit like that.

[cspanlovr]

6. I went to Catholic school for twelve miserable years, and there's

nothing I could do to insult the church more than they have done themselves.

[soothsayer]

7. No, alot of folks hate Catholics, so I'm kind of used to it. It's funny

to me that they hate us sometimes because Mary is so important (a lowly woman? wha??) and some freak out thinking that we pray to saints (thinking we worship them, when really the idea is "look, I'm not important enough to bother God but would you, dear saint, mind putting in a nice prayer for me?")

[Reverend_Smitty]

8. No not really

I am a Catholic and am not personally insulted by religious comments, however many people are and lets face it when people put down religions; most of their insults are based on stereotypes and broad brush statements. So I don't think that is right if you were to say something like that about a particular race or nationality so generally I think it is wrong to say that about a religion. Thats why I stay out of saying bad things about religions...individual religious figures are a different thing entirely. I can say negative things about them because I'm basing my judgment on their actions and not their religious affiliation.

[LiberalArkie]

10. I got over it a long time ago. When the preachers talked down to me.

When the TV theologians talked down to me. I just had to forgive the Falwells, the Robertsons, the Bushs and all the rest. I just had to go by what teacher told me. He told me to forgive those who traspass against me. He told me to turn the other cheek when hit. He told me to house the homeless. He told me to feed the hungry. He told me that vengence was not mine to do but the Fathers to do. I am just sorry that so many christians do not believe in do what Christ said to do.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

11. Not in the slightest.

If someone speaks in offense of my King, it's on their soul, not mine. They'll have to answer for it themselves.

And they WILL answer for it.

[msongs]

29. says who besides you? nt

[Jed Dilligan]

36. Wow

I've never met such a huge Elvis fan before!

[Bill McBlueState]

48. are you threatening us?

That's kinda cheesy.

[question everything]

13. It depends whether you are the majority or the minority

in the community.

It depends of whether such slurs can incite people - often young white men who don't have much going in their lives - to go on a rampage to kill, maim and destroy property of the people affected.

I can see a Muslim in this country being feeling apprehension when Islam is being slurred - as opposed to stating facts. But Muslims in countries like Turkey? What do they have to be fearful of?

[Jed Dilligan]

14. There's three types of religious insult

1. Doctrinal silliness. "You think some dude rose from the dead and is coming back? That's almost as ridiculous as the prophet showing up at seder!" On an empirical level it's pretty easy to poke fun at supernatural cosmologies.

2. Desecration. Something sacred to you isn't sacred to someone else. To me, the pope is just a creepy guy in a dress... and some can't handle that I think that and take it as a personal insult.

3. Stereotyping. Like when someone says all Muslims are fanatics or all Christians are homophobes.

I think 3 is bigotry but 1 and 2 are fair game.

[Bluerthanblue]

15. personally, it is the implication that

my 'faith' is one that is represented by loud, radical, violent extremists who claim to follow the same path as I do- or attempt to twist 'dogma' to make it appear that anyone who embraces the same spiritual path is a murdering lunatic, that would offend me.

As for the cartoons, it's because of the prohibitions that exist in the Muslim religion that so many were angered, and the antagonistic way in which they were used.

Don't overlook the fact that the Pope has quite abit to say about Madonna and her dirtying what the Pope sees as 'sacrosanct'-

I'm not threatened by what people say about my faith, if my faith is incumbent upon other people being 'converted'- then I must not have that much 'FAITH' in what I believe, because requiring others to agree and re-affirm my spiritual beliefs, means I care more about having others 'affirm' my choices, than the choices themselves.
(I didn't say that very coherently, but it is a hard concept to put into words- sorry)

[Bitwit1234]

16. Religious Nuts

I want to add this. A person can be religious and not call for everyone who disagrees with them to be slaughtered.

You are correct. The Muslims are complaining now about the Pope saying that Muslims kill. Well the do. He was only quoting. The republicans on our forum are flipping their wigs at this. But look at coulter she called for the republicans to kill the "activist judges" she called for people to kill the editors of the NYT. A 14 year old girl made some videos telling the truth about bush and his administration and she got death threats all over the net. No matter what anyone says about the republicans in 24 hours they are yelling kill kill kill. And are beating people up.

Now answer this. What is the difference between the republican re-action and the Muslim extremist. There are more Muslims and they are more visible because the MSM does not publish all the republican hate and vilification. But I don't see any difference in the two.

[bbgrunt]

49. very good point. I think the repubs are

like growling voracious hurrricanes just waiting for anyone in their path to challenge their ideas so that they can isolate, disparage, flail, and devour that person. Somehow, however, our coporate media will never get this similarity to the Muslim reaction.

[riderinthestorm]

17. Not for me, but there are plenty on DU that do get offended.

I don't personally understand that level of defensiveness but if even liberal Dems (who typically possess open minds and a desire to discuss issues) can get that bent out of shape about religion, then it's obviously volatile.

In Newsweek a couple of weeks back they had an article about some professors who are coming to the conclusion that religion (all of them) are bad for any society because people are too thin skinned about their religious beliefs, because of the level of violence that does surround "faith". It was a fascinating article - I'll try to google it and link here if I can.


Sorry, not sure how to make a link but here's the article, "The New Nayseyers"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14638243/site/newsweek/

[Skidmore]

19. Nope. Not at all.

Raised in a fundamentalist church as a child, became a Methodist, married and divorced a Muslim, remarried to a Methodist minister's son...

currently won't have anything to do with organized religions. I believe that there are many paths to God, only some of which are Christian. Much wrong has been done in the name of religion. I have no use for fundamentalism of any stripe. I certainly will not take offence when the wrongs wrought by religion are pointed out.

[kerstin]

20. What, baseball?

Only if they knock my team!:grr:

[WildClarySage]

21. I am much more offended by someone trying to convert me

to their religion because the implication is that I haven't considered my faith long or well enough and that I'm not secure in that faith. Also, I just hate when people proselytize during dinnertime or when I'm trying to get the baby to sleep- which it seems is 99% of the time when the doorbell is rung by one of Them.

[napi21]

31. I never thought about it much, but you're right! I was much more

put outby the Baptists who, when I moved from Pa. to SC, came to my door and questioned me about "are you SURE you are going to heaven? ' They tried to convince me that if I didn't convert to be a Baptist, I would NEVER get there! When I told them I was a Catholic, I thought they were going to fall off my porch! Apparently Baptists think that Catholics are those who adore false gods!

I don't oppose any religion, and I really wish everyone else would practice that same thing. The World would be a much better place if that were so.

[raysr]

22. Religion is insanity

All religion should be ridiculed.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. what you said.

I can't be offended. atheists don't have a religion that can be offended.

[TriMetFan]

33. Why?

[bronxiteforever]

23. I am only offended if government would to try to take away my right

to practice my beliefs (as guaranteed in the United States Constitution) as a free human being. ( with the usual proviso as long as I don't hurt anyone)
In a free society we should be able to talk and think freely about such matters.
I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state.
Government and religion don't mix and history is proof certain of that.

[TriMetFan]

34. Amen to that.

[acmavm]

24. Depends. When people make really denigratory remarks about people

just because they have religious beliefs I'm extremely offended.

If they pick apart some piece of theology that they find offensive or that they think is wrong, no.

[rockymountaindem]

26. Yes, indeed I am offended

Once someone told me, right to my face and in front of anyone in my high school cafeteria who could hear him, that I deserve to die because I am Jewish. I am offended when people refer to Jews as "matchsticks", although that's more of a European phrase I think, or as kikes or what have you.

Despite my aversion to anti-Semitic slurs, I've never responded by burning down a church, punching random non-Jews or advocating that anyone else do those things.

[flyarm]

27. NO I SLUR MY OWN RELIGION WHEN THEY DESERVE IT!

and this pope offends me ..what he said i think is disgusting..and i want him to applogise immediately!

but i did not and do not agree with this pope being picked by the opus dei and little lord pissy pants..

this guy was a brown shirt for hitler..and i find no excuses viable for that!

i am not into reconsiliation of brown shirts ..who helped in the mass murder of 12 million human beings..

i don't give a rats ass how old he was..or any of the other excuses ..

i do not and will not ever like or respect this pope!

fly

[derby378]

28. If you're a Quaker, you HAVE to develop a sense of humor

It's okay if Quakers get a little ribbing from popular culture once in a while - anyone remember the "Christmastime for the Jews" segment from Saturday Night Live? That was nice and silly.

However, I draw the line when someone claims that we are "un-American" or "treasonous" when we oppose the invasion of Iraq. I have had one right-wing radio host tell me that he respects my position on Iraq as far as my religious convictions go, if not my political leanings. That's fine. But if someone tries to label me as a traitor, all bets are off. I'm anti-war, and I appreciate the ideals of pacifism, but I'm of the same mind as Dan Aykroyd - I'm like a porcupine. Step on me or someone I care about, and you will get sprayed with quills.

[sandnsea]

30. Offended by oppression more

I'm not offended by constructive criticism of my religion, although I don't partake anymore anyway. I am disturbed by cheap shots though, and I'd say around 80% of "criticisms" against religion are nothing but cheap shots. You can't have a discussion on religion at DU without someone slinging "pedophile priest" or "flying spaghetti monster" into the thread which contributes absolutely nothing to whatever is being discussed. It does no more good for the world than those stupid Muslim cartoons did. What's ironic is that this vitriol comes from people who lay claim to the "peace" movement. There are days that they are as insulting and inflammatory as any of those they say are victimizing them.

Despite the animosities though, I'd be more upset if people weren't allowed to speak their mind. It would be nice if everyone managed to express their view without animosity, including me. OTOH, it's also true that you have to break some eggs on occasion. I just think there's too many folks out there breaking eggs like it's Halloween instead of for some true altruistic motive.

[WinkyDink]

32. Depends, wouldn't it? I certainly wouldn't riot or cause injury.

[Dorian Gray]

35. Sure, I get offended,

but more so when I think people are criticizing out of ignorance rather than thoughtfulness. But, my "offense" pretty much is limited to a moment where I may argue. I don't attack people for holding different viewpoints than I do. And I would never burn someone's flag, attack a house of worship or break shit as a result of my offense.

[knitter4democracy]

42. Amen to that.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I'm not offended easily on stuff like this, but I do get irked if someone makes some nasty comment out of ignorance or because he wants to start a fight or something like that. I just argue back, though, and don't get all violent about it.

[Igel]

37. Offended, but not outraged.

Were it the case that every major insult to my Deity caused me to fly off the handle and commit acts of violence and hate, I'd have long ago been locked up.

Most recently, when reading sermons in the Pakistani and Sa'udi English-language press. Want to read things that defame a religion, start there. (But, as with all true believers, they're only saying the Truth, while everybody else is issuing wilful calumnies.)

[booley]

38. As a Pagan, I get my religion "insulted" all the time

Especially around Halloween or whenever Rowlings comes out with a new Book.

And maybe that's given me a thicker skin. Or maybe I just realize that the people doing the "insulting" haven't a clue.

Some of the ignorance and bile are legitimate threats. When the Theo-Cons call this a Khristian nation and try to pass laws based on thier narrow beleifs and make those not like them invisible, that's dangerouse. But most of the time it's just some goober ranting away on stuff he knows nothing about. And then it's an issue of trying to educate or failing that, ignoring them.

And in cases where real offense is meant and has to be acknowledged, over-reacting can often make things worse.

When the anti-Muslim cartoons came out, there were riots. Not every Muslim reacted that way of course. Not even most. But enough so that the image of Muslims as 'crazy and violent" was reinforced.

When Iran responded by having a contest for anti-semitic cartoons, the Jewish community's response was a collective "so?". And it made the Iranian president look like an idiot.

And having a media that is so willing to portray Muslims in a bad light, this problem just becomes magnified.

People need to be able to just say to those disparaging thier religion, "You're wrong, that's not true and you're an idiot. Now go away."

Just my 2 cents.

[Felinity]

47. My sympathies

When I was in Catholic school, "pagan" was put forth as non-religion. We used to collect up donations to buy "pagan babies" in foreign missions. We got to name them for the $5.00 they extorted from our innocent little minds.

I think, still, most people don't even get that Paganism is a religion, and a very respectable one at that, IMHO.

[frebrd]

39. Certainly not moved to violence...

but definitely offended and angered by slurs against Atheism!

My Atheism is just as fundamental a part of me as religious belief is to a religionist!

[BlooInBloo]

40. Not in the least. I wish all religions would receive more slurs.

Mebbe that way pessimistic, needy, hopeless, anti-intellectual (ie religious) folks would work to make THIS world better.

[bryant69]

43. I get offended by that

But that probably doesn't come as a surprise to most here. I usually try to blow it off, but often don't.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Marr]

45. I'm an atheist, but I'm offended when people broadbrush atheists, yes.

At least- I'm offended when a person of influence does it (as with Bush, Sr.'s comments about atheists not being citizens).

So I can imagine how religious people would be offended by people of influence insulting their religion, you bet.

[shadowknows69]

46. No, I figure my Gods will do something about it if they're pissed

They don't need my protection. I doubt Jesus would want to be portrayed as the helpless savior either.

[TriMetFan]

50. Today is Catechetical Sunday for us Catholic's that teach Sunday School.

So as a Franciscan Catholic and Sunday School Teacher in my Church, I will be teaching respect of others and to follow the words of Jesus Christ. Our Pray I think say's it all if you are a True Christian.

The Peace Prayer

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is error, the truth;
Where there is doubt, the faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
Grant that I may not so much seek
To be consoled, as to console;
To be understood, as to understand;
To be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.

I also think that as Americans we need to remember we are different and to hate others because of a few rotten apples doesn't help your health. So I agree with you. I also think that what our leader of all Catholic The Pope said was wrong and he should come out an apologize every Sunday for a year for this kind of Bigot statement.

Just if any one wants to read a little bit of history about us Catholics here in Oregon and the hate we had to face.

http://libraries.cua.edu/achrcua/OSC/introduction.htm

[Warren DeMontague]

51. I, too, don't have a specific religion to offend.

Hell, I can even put up with horribly misguided, aesthetically deficient people (like my wife) saying they don't like the music of the Grateful Dead.

[CarlVK]

53. You should never go out of your way to slime an entire faith.

On top of being ethically reprehensible, in these days it's just plain stupid.

Would you purposely douse yourself with gasoline and jump into a fire?

[Raksha]

54. Well, yeah I'm offended if anyone insults my religion or my people.

Since I'm Jewish, it's been happening on a fairly regular basis all my life. When I got online and started getting involved in interfaith discussion groups, it multiplied tenfold! But it would never occur to me to firebomb a church because of it. I just tell the offender he or she is an asshole and let it go at that.

[immoderate]

55. As a Jewish atheist, I have a dilemma.

Jews are brought up with the nightmare of the holocaust haunting us. I get sensitive when I hear anti-semitic remarks. Considering how much current events remind us of the Third Reich, the thought of them coming for the Jews again is not unrealistic.

On the other hand, I am a rationalist freethinker, and always ready to take a shot at religious dogma, including my own. That didn't make my parent happy, not to mention the rabbis I have known. Interestingly though, some rabbis were quite skeptical.

On the third hand, I support all cultural views, and I don't want to see any of that stuff obliterated. I mean it's all OK, as long as you don't believe in it. Thanks to my friends, I get to celebrate holidays of all religions, as long as it's fun, and the food is good.:)

--IMM

[Raksha]

56. Jewish atheists are why I said "my religion or my people."

Re >>Jews are brought up with the nightmare of the holocaust haunting us. I get sensitive when I hear anti-semitic remarks. Considering how much current events remind us of the Third Reich, the thought of them coming for the Jews again is not unrealistic.<<

You have every right to feel threatened by anti-Semitic remarks. You don't think Hitler would have cared for one second that you're an atheist, do you?

That said, however, I consider myself a freethinker too (although not an atheist) and I'm often critical of the sexist and abrasively ethnocentric aspects of traditional Judaism.

[immoderate]

57. We are in accord.

I just used to say atheist. But that same question you pose was critical. Being Jewish is a tribal identity as well as a religion, and I can't deny I was born into the tribe. (Hey, I start most days with a bagel and some very expensive lox.)

Some think the term "Jewish atheist" is a contradiction. Conversations with the rabbi that bar mitzvahed me made me think that his spiritual views were not very different from mine.

I never had a problem denigating the contents of scripture.

--IMM

[kiahzero]

58. Yes, I'm generally offended by insults.

I don't think that's all that unreasonable.

[Rosemary2205]

60. No - although I have been offended by words.

A former boss that was stealing got fired because I filed an honest report to his boss showing exactly where $82,000 was missing. He called me a fucking whore, bitch and cunt in front of my coworkers. I wasn't really offended by what HE said, I was offended the higher ups saw fit to drag me into it. Their words to him, "Rosemary is the one that finked on you", offended me greatly.

[sweetheart]

61. It depends how it affects me

In a purely selfish sense, i don't give a toss what anyone says, in terms of invective of hatred,
i've been hated in life, and i know what hatred is like. I'm done with caring anymore about that,
and methinks hatred is a stone we carry, until we put it down.

[NaturalHigh]

62. Yes...

but I've gotten used to it after a few years of seeing Christians insulted on this board.

[tammywammy]

70. I second that

Do I say anything, usually not. But it does offend me when all Christian are lumped in with the fundamentalist Evangelicals. It's not all the same.

And the post where they demean anyone that believes in (almost any) religion, with talk about the "invisible sky guy." I don't talk down to anyone of any religion or lack thereof. I'd rather have an interesting conversation/discussion about our differences, than put you down because you believe differently than me and sometimes I'd hope that some people on this board would embrace that train of though.

[REP]

71. Slurs Against Any Religion Pisses Me Off

I bothers me to no end when I hear someone parrot something assinine about a religion. Don't get me wrong - there's plenty to complain about in the Big Three as they are practiced, but the "Islam preaches violence" or "All Christianity is evil" or "Jews kill Christians" (I've heard all of the above) is just offensively stupid. Same for the "atheists have no morals" (though atheism isn't really a religion). There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with a doctrine or an organization or even a belief system, but just spouting off random shit without knowing anything is annoying.

[HornBuckler]

87. Religion is dumb

'nuff said.

[Random_Australian]

88. I shouldn't laugh, but when I see consecutive subject lines:

"slurs against any religion piss me off"

and

"religion is dumb"

ya just gotta.

:)

Now, on to actually adding something to the discussion.

[HornBuckler]

92. Ok - let me re-iterate

religion is fool's gold.

like that analogy better?

[Random_Australian]

94. Ok - I see what you mean.

However, if it makes people act nicer, I would argue that it is worth keeping.

[HornBuckler]

95. Nicer? uhh No, I wholeheartedly disagree

it turns brother against brother. Religion is Satan incarnate.

Edit : I don't believe in Satan, I only use the name to help those inclined to believe in him/it to see where I'm coming from.

[Random_Australian]

96. Aye, but it does not HAVE to.

I was not going to suggest that it was to be left as-is.

There is going to be a way to make things better. I don't think the end result will be entirely sans-religion.

[HornBuckler]

97. Well I agree with your statement.

However, how great would it be if the world was "sans-religion"

A helluva lot of progress would be made.

[Random_Australian]

98. Hmmm... I think where we differ is that I am a *very* processes based

person.

In particular, having the people who are kept in line by their religion right now all stop beleiving makes for a dangerous process. (Man I have been doing too much chemistry - I almost said "high-energy intermediate")

[HornBuckler]

100. Oh well sure - those people couldn't handle

any rational thought that dare challenge their beliefs.

But it sure would be great -

Sometimes people choose not to challenge their own beliefs/it's too hard for them.

But I say I don't need them.

I mean, sure , they are good people - but deep down? I think they are ignorant and the world would be better without them. (not that i want to kill/eliminate them, I just wish they would see the 'light' so to speak)

[Random_Australian]

103. But - is there some way, some mechanism by which you would

remove religion from the world?

I should think it much easier to make a pleasant world where there are believers.... however of course the very first thing everyone would have to learn is not to judge people on what group they belong to.

[Random_Australian]

89. That is because, as an atheist, you are devoid of emotion.

Come to the Lord and you will feel again!

I know you are feeling empty, and that you seek something you just can't put your finger on... well that thing is the Lord!

Rejoice for Jesus and repent!

Come and be Saved!

[Random_Australian]

91. And this is the post where I add that nothing I said just now was meant.

I'm an implicit atheist and was wondering if such a slur would draw an angry response. Just curious.

:)

[marions ghost]

90. OK well, yes but...

Using the term "religion" very loosely--is there anything in your life you ARE a bit thin-skinned about? Anything (or anyone) you care about enough to feel even a slight urge to defend it? If so, that would be your religion. For example, my sister defends the environment, and I would say that nature appreciation is her religion. She adheres to no other belief systems, no gods, no creeds. But her work (or practice) in this goes deeper than being an armchair 'environmentalist.' It is where her heart is.

I know those who are athiests in the strict sense of "non-belief in gods or spirits" who nevertheless are devoted to family, friends, work. This sustains them and is their anchor, and they would react against insults to these things they care about. You cared enough about religious bigotry to defend religions, despite being an athiest--and in a sense you are defending your right to your belief system--atheism--as well. Everyone believes in something in order to remain anchored to the earth.

If you can honestly say there is nothing you feel so strongly about, then you may be beyond religion.
One may even be able to make a religion of being beyond religion. Whether being beyond any form of attachment is "good" or not, I make no judgment. I guess there are some monks or yogis that get there eventually. Sometimes people who have been very sick attain such a state of letting go. Or the very old--I remember my grandmother at age 94 closed her bible one day and casually said she didn't need it anymore, like the way she had given up cigarettes at 90 with the comment, 'old people shouldn't smoke.'

Just chatting, no debate here -- :)

[Random_Australian]

93. I would argue that that definition of religion is not accurate.

Just seems to be making everything deep-felt on par with the whole Jesus thing, which seems unfair. (Not that I am saying there is anything WRONG with Mr Jesus, but they seem rather different to me. :)

[marions ghost]

99. You can talk about strict definitions...

I'm talking about the heart thing--ie. what someone believes, what they promote, what they defend. If you care enough about anything strongly, it becomes a personally defined sort of religion. You seem to have a very negative and narrow interpretation of the word, equating it with the worst of Christian fundyism, or the excesses of the large organized religions. I'm expanding the definition of religion to mean "life-sustaining personal creed." Atheism easily fits that definition.

For me the arts--music, art, writing--is my religion, the thing I care about, the thing I most "believe" in, the place where I find a reason to go on in this hard life from day to day. I am not embarrassed at all to put it in those terms. I don't think it's wrong to say that the effort and focus people put into various aspects of their lives can attain the level of a personal religion. We all know how money becomes a god for some, how money worship is a religion. Is this unfair to say? In my mind, it's one reason why Christian fundies and Worshippers of Baal such as the Neocons can find common ground--they are both zealots. It's really zealots that are the problem.

[Random_Australian]

102. Hey hey hey... be calm.

Sorry if I upset you, really.


Don't worry, my conception of the word and the world is not so narrow, not so negative - I don't think I spoke as clearly as perhaps I would like, but what I meant was that while religion and the other things we care about lie close to our hearts - they are the same in that they are important to us, yes - but they are not always the same.

My mind perhaps is too focused on what exactly things are, so my addition was that these things are different. Concern for the environment never requires faith.

But one last time, I understand that these things are important, and if I have appeared to demean or talk negatively of the things that are important to you, you have my apologies.

[marions ghost]

107. eh?

I'm not even slightly upset. :) Really. There is nothing anyone could say to me in an anonymous forum that I would take offense at. Because since I am not a real entity to anyone, how could anyone affect me personally? I am only how I "seem" to you, through your filter (and vice versa). Too impersonal a situation to get really worked up. That's one of the interesting things about message boards. Maybe it's my staccato way of writing that leads you to think I am in some way offended. Choppy writing can seem terse. For me it's just expedient.

A n y way, getting past that...my point is only that what we take to heart, what we care about, rises to the level of religion. I would have to argue that anything--environmentalism, arts, devotion to one's children, fishing or Nascar--can be called a primary life-sustaining force in one's life. "I ____, therefore I am." Whatever it is that becomes an investment over time.

I would also argue that this investment DOES require faith--enough faith in the power of that force to give you the will to live another day. Just having the will to live another day requires faith in something, even if it's only faith that the sun will rise once again (without our having to appeal to the gods to make that happen).

But NO problemo. It's all just chat.

[Random_Australian]

109. Good, good.

I don't myself get affected, but there are reasons why I go to long lengths not to offend others.

Anyway, I am pretty much sans-faith (as I base all that I believe on evidence)... perhaps we are using different 'faiths' - I have no faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. It might or it might not. What is important is the evidence (it has risen many times before) and the symmetry (I shant go into the long explanation unless you ask.)

But I must to bed for now!

[marions ghost]

114. I appreciate your

efforts not to ruffle feathers. I agree about clarifying esp. when talking to people you don't know. Avoids unnecessary trouble.

This (what is faith anyway?) is a somewhat tangential topic I realize, but it's interesting to me, because I think that everyone has a belief system, everyone has faith --even if it's faith in the dominance of "evidence." Most people in western cultures do look for scientific evidence to substantiate their beliefs. People who believe in the metaphysical in addition to science claim to have evidence of how that manifests in their lives. Even doctors (MDs) will tell you they have seen faith healing, for example.

Some people function better with structure and socially founded "faiths" while others function best with more personalized "faiths." Depends on personality and experience. While I understand there are extreme skeptics who don't believe anything they can't see and evaluate (fair enough)-- I also maintain that even they still operate out of a kind of faith. IF you truly did not have ANY faith in anything, you would be either institutionalized or dead. It would be too stressful to not believe anything, to make no assumptions, to not operate on rational (but unproven) hypotheses --ALL the time.

About the sun coming up because it has for a long time. Right, it might not one day. The radical changes the climate seems to be going through are largely unprecedented, according to scientists. Nothing is so predictable as change. But we operate as though the sun will rise, and that is an act of faith. Everything from getting out of bed, to having kids, to eating food we have no idea where it comes from, to putting our lives in the hands of elected representatives--all these are acts of faith. Putting one foot in front of another is an act of faith in this fragile world.

OK what is this symmetry? Answer if you can find this thread again when you wake up...or when the sun gets around to Australia and morning occurs.

[Random_Australian]

121. Symmetry is the thing that I use to not have faith that the sun will rise

on the morrow.

Basically, the sum of what actions I ought to do through all the possibilities of the sun rising or not rising tomorrow governs my behaviour, not faith that it will rise.

Symmetry refers to large components of the sum above cancelling out, here is a hypothetical that will make it most clear, I hope.


Suppose we added to our current lives one piece of knowledge - that God would judge us when we died, and until that time we would get to know NOTHING about that God. Not a thing.

For me, the chances that I would be sent to hell for any particular action are even, as I don't get to know anything about what will and what won't.

Or, in other words, no particular path would be favoured.

The reason this is called symmetry is that the chances I would go to hell are symmetrical around how I think now - in other words, they cancel out.

Symmetry is something that is very useful for simplyfying large problems, as well as a couple of other techniques when you run into infinite things.

[marions ghost]

124. OK thanks

I will meditate on this. Is there any particular reference person for this concept?

What happens if you apply this concept to the pivotal American elections in 06 and 08? Obviously we have to abandon a lot of "faith" about the system and the outcome. We cannot depend on anything to tell us what the outcome will be in a manipulated system, where the political party in power acts as though it's God. Is it rational to believe that elections are fair?

[Random_Australian]

126. Reference person? Not yet. I'm afraid the way that I learnt about this

stuff was finding out about it in physics, but I think of the normal world in much the same way so it was easy for me to transfer over.

Apply this concept to the elections? How could you? Symmetry is used to work out (quickly) what a person ought to do, and what's more the outcomes are far from symmetric.

Basically, what I would do is work out a series. ie. If outcome 1 happens, then do (x), if outcome 2 happens, then do (y), if outcome 3 happens, then do (z).

Symmetry is only really useful to take away very uncertain things - your elections being stolen or not stolen is far from a 'very uncertain' result. It may be hard for you to tell, but the important thing is that it really happened.

Anyway, there are lots of ways to remove faith in thins, like the machines. Symmetry is a tool to help with just one of them.

[rpannier]

101. Of course I am. Mine is the one, true religion

The almighty is the leader of our congragation. Our spiritual leader was personally baptised and annointed by the Savior himself.
Ours is a religion of peace, love and compassion.

And the next one of you m***er f**kers who bad mouths my religion of peace and love I'll KILL YOU and Piss on your grave.

Can you feel the love now?

In case it's not clear
:sarcasm: :evilgrin:

[bleedingheart]

106. I am not very religious BUT...Religious slurs remind me why

we are lucky that we live in a society that at least in the past kept religion out of government and vice versa....and how dangerous mixing the two can be.

[lectrobyte]

108. No, not at all. As Bob Teaches, Fuck us if we can't take a joke.

Pra' Bob!

[eridani]

122. More slack NOW! n/t

[TheFriedPiper]

110. Religious people amuse me until they get into positions of power

That is when their insanity becomes dangerous.

[AngryAmish]

111. If you are a Catholic at DU you get used to it

It doesn't make it any better.

[NaturalHigh]

115. Try being Baptist.

I think we draw the ire of more DU members than anyone.

[treestar]

112. No, but then I have no reason to panic and can laugh them off

It is perhaps reasonable for the Muslims today to feel they are in actual danger as a result of the hatred ignited against them and inflamed against them constantly in the western media.

I think that is where they are coming from, not that they are inherently more sensitive. You can afford to be insensitive where you don't feel threatened. We laugh at those flowery-worded threats against the infidel that come from the likes of Baghdad Bob. Which proves we are not truly afraid of the Muslims ability to "destroy our way of life."

Whereas they feel that we are a credible threat for destroying theirs.

[johnnie]

113. I have beliefs, but no religion

What offends me is when people make generalized statements on a spiritual belief. The only "religion" that really gets bashed around here is Christianity. Of course that is a belief system and not a religion, but sometimes they are put into the same context.

Most of the bashing is toward Catholicism though. It seems like anytime there is a discussion on the Catholic church there is sure to be a few pedophile comments thrown in. I am going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think every single priest in the Catholic church is a pedophile, but you wouldn't know it from reading many comments here from time to time.

The other thing that offends me is that bashing "religion" here at DU is usually very "politically correct". 9 times out of 10 it will be something along the lines of Christians believing in myths and how naive they must be. You never see anyone laughing at Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Any of the Native American religions, Wicca, Paganism and many other belief systems that would get them flamed. It is OK to laugh at Christians who believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, but when was the last time you heard "Those Hopi Indians actually believe that Kokopelli brought fetuses to women, what a bunch of morons."?

I am one of those who believes that religion is needed in a society, and there are benefits to having some sort of spiritual belief. I also believe that if a person doesn't believe in anything, that is fine too. It takes many lives to get where we are going and you won't get it right in one.

[DireStrike]

116. Atheism? I usually laugh at people who mock it.

Or sigh when they run the country.

[distantearlywarning]

117. I'm a Christian

I don't care what people say.

My God and faith are not so weak that they can be harmed by a little criticism.

The extreme reaction to these very small slights on both sides of the religious aisle (see Catholicism/Da Vinci code, for example) is truly mystifying to me.

[kineneb]

118. No. Why should I be offended?

I consider myself to be a Buddhist, and as such, follow the teachings as life path rather than belief system. So offend away. I will smile and go on my way. Oh, and... want a donut? Peace.

Any religion or philosophy which is secure in itself, finds no offense in ridicule, only amusement. Apparently most religions and "religious" people are fairly insecure.

[Lindacooks]

119. No. That would be silly.

I know what I believe. And I know what makes me angry. And it isn't religious insults. That's for people who have the luxury of being shallow and unconcerned about the bigger picture: PEOPLE ARE DYING because of the chimp administration.

[hyphenate]

120. I've heard it all

from people from all sides, and for the most part, it doesn't bother me. However, when I used to hear my former fundie friend saying she had Pat Robertson praying for me, I was so close to bitch slapping her for that, it isn't funny. When I broke off my friendship with her, practically the first thing out of my mouth was that I hated that prayer shit and I didn't want to have any so-called "Christians" praying for me for any reason at all!!

There are a few things which do bother me, but a lot of it is simply ignorance on the part of the person talking. For instance, I haven't played with a Ouija board in a very long time, but we always had fun with it, and when I hear people telling me that the Ouija board is filled with evil, I remind them that it's a board game for chrissakes! AND it's only as innocent or evil as the two people controlling the stylus. But to hear some people, you would think that the devil himself is controlling the board and the stylus and that anyone who plays with it is courting wickedness.

I have also read tarot cards for a very, very long time, and have been reasonably successful with some people, and yet I get knocked for that as well, and some people even think I'm evil because if it. It's a load of bullshit that people are thinking, and I condemn them for ignorance just because they have preconceived notions of these things without any real experience with them.

I have some other beliefs, like being mostly an atheist, so I get the "godless" shit all the time, but for the most part, I keep it to myself unless I'm with people I know fairly well. But yeah--sometimes I get pissed off.

[Swamp Rat]

123. No, because I know Zeus will blast them to bits.

:D

[MrSlayer]

128. Yes. You mock the illustrious Ares at your peril.

And if you say something negative about Thor I will hit you with a hammer.

[Philosoraptor]

129. You Thorists are all the same, always throwing tools.

[Philosoraptor]

130. kik