Yes, I've been called a conspiracy theorist, because....

[Lerkfish]

In no particular order....

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush was going to abandon diplomacy and invade Iraq.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the weapons inspectors, including Scott Ritter said there were no WMDs
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that having no purview at Guantanamo Bay was an open door to abuses.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the Bush administration was probably using the patriot act to spy on us domestically, including peace activists
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that terror alerts seemed to coincide with low poll ratings for Bush
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush was trying to get control of all three branches of government
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the line between "suspected terrorist" and "dissident" was going to blur and disappear.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that there was such a group as the "neocons"
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the neocons had influence in the brand new Bush administration
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush's first cabinent was completely composed of war hawks and oil company hacks, and that that meant we were probably heading for a war over oil.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Diebold was owned by a high donating republican operative.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the gang of 14 would lead to packing the supreme court with the most outrageously conservative lineup, with no opposition.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush would probably recess appoint Bolton
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that just because they're US soldiers, does not mean they'll always be fair and treat prisoners well.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that whistleblowers would be persecuted
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that we would be torturing prisoners, I was told no not us, not us americans.
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Abu Ghraib was a lot more than just a few "bad apples".
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the swiftboaters were probably organized and funded by a right wing organization


ok....those are a few examples, of where I was ABSOLUTELY PROVEN CORRECT in my predictions. Not because I wanted these things to pass, but because I saw the writing on the wall.

So, now, I'm again being called a conspiracy theorist when I point out that we are going to bomb Iran, that the PNAC wants genetically coded bioweapons, and that DLC, RNC and necons all want Lieberman in so that implies something about their relationship to each other, That we will be required to have ID chip implants in order to control us, and that the 800 FEMA detention camps are for when Bush declares martial law after the next domestic disaster, real or false flag, for those who oppose the martial law or disagree with the govt.


I could go on, but my point is that memories are short, and what seemed like tin foil hat territory just a simple 6 yrs ago is now accepted reality.
Beware, because that means what is tinfoil hat territory NOW may soon come to pass.

Here's a hint why I'm always right about the neocons: I simply think of the absolute worst thing they could do, barring a moral reticence, and that is what they do. IN other words, the reason someone thinks something is worthy of a tinfoil hat is not that it isn't possible, but that "they would NEVER do that"...well, in fact, they have NO qualms about ANYTHING.

[stepnw1f]

1. Just Tell Them all to STFU

Why people get all up in a tizzy because people want to speculate or have theories is bullshit! They may as well work for the GOP, because what they are doing is preventing debate and speculation, or at least trying to prevent it. Fuck em all.

The conspiracy theorists on this site seem to be more on the ball than anyone else. So I'll say it for you.... STFU!!!! Or ignore people's speculation.

[Lerkfish]

10. hahaha! this post made me laugh and made me feel better.

I get tired of when I say something like "I think xxx will happen in the future..." and they come back and say "where's your evidence or proof?"
They don't get the concept of speculation.

[stepnw1f]

34. No... They Don't Want Us To Read Your Speculation

and possibly agree with you. Or maybe others on DU may also speculate...

[datasuspect]

50. or when they consider weblinks as acceptable proof

[blm]

2. Pretty close to my theory: Believe the worst about events involving BFEE

because eventually history will prove you right about 95% of the time.

[Lerkfish]

12. absolutely.

these people are evil AND naive, which means no amount of contrary evidence will sway them from their goals.

[QuestionAll...]

18. it's a good motto.

I adopted it years ago and the % is about right as far as I figure.

don't believe Anything that comes from the WH or anything they support. That's why I am very against the Israeli/Lebanon war.

rotten feckers.

[Zodiak]

44. And that is the rub of it

It is normally considered intellectually lazy to automatically take the opposite position from one's opponent or anticipate the worst from him at all times, but darn it all if it isn't 90% true.

What REALLY pisses me off (now that we are on the subject) is that the same people who called me a conspiracy theorist eventually had to admit I was right. And they will quickly call me that again if I come up with another tidbit of speculation.

Well, at least they listen, now.

[blm]

57. Kerry and the investigative journalists who exposed IranContra and BCCI

were all labeled conspiracy theory nuts - and we know who turned out to be right. Same with CIA drugrunning.

[bobthedrummer]

94. Here are a few examples of what was once discredited as too far-out

The use of perception management instead of reality
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x71919#top

BCCI
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x490176

BFEE Nazi connections
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#top

That's just a small sample. The truth is the truth no matter what attacks are used on the truth tellers.

[Tellurian]

3. Yep, yep and yep...thanks for the hefty does of reality

keep on keeping on lerkfish.
Do not let anyone deter your voice...

[bryant69]

4. People really called you a conspiracy theorist

for pointing out that the Neoconservatives had influence in the Bush Administration? Really? That He appointed a bunch of them the moment he got elected, that seems particularly senseless.

Now of course I have seen people argue that the existance of neo-conservativism implies LIHOP/MIHOP and I would't agree with that.

At any rate, past performance is not indication of future results, as they say on Wall Street, and while some of what you say seems likely others of which I don't buy

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Lerkfish]

9. not always by people here, in other places.

you make a very valid point: re: past performance is not indicitive of future results.
But I"m making the point that what I said in the past was considered by some, just as unlikely, at the time, as what I'm saying now.

(too many commas! argh!)

[bvar22]

96. Past Performance IS indicative of future results!!!

It is not PROOF of future results, but Past Performance IS the BEST indicator of future results.
Ask ANY Bookie in Las Vegas.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. I don't have the time for conspiracy theories cuz... ya see I

have to put food on my family.

[elehhhhna]

6. SAME HERE! what a post. Rec'd

[JuniperLea]

7. Thank you!

I'm pretty tired of the closed minded name callers...

[baldguy]

8. Is it still a conspiracy "theory" even with concrete evidence?

[gratuitous]

13. Evidence? Pffff! As if!

Don't you know that the facts have a liberal bias? Stephen Colbert said so, President Simpleton believes it in his gut, and I believe it, so that settles it.

Sarcasm, of course, but you knew that . . .

[Lerkfish]

14. no, but at that point they forget they called you a lunatic.

and just act like they knew it all along, or they completely deny it.

(this refers to all the places I frequent, not just here)

[ElboRuum]

64. Well, yeah, I guess so...

Seems reasonable, despite all the concrete evidence to support evolution, we still call that a theory... so... um... yeah. Sucks, don't it.

Even after what amounts to about a century of governmental corruption, there are still people who think the government can do no wrong and wants the best for everyone.

[Jed Dilligan]

11. Rec'd

The only thing I can thank Bush for is pulling me in from the margins with his ever-renewed lunacy...

[texpatriot2004]

15. It's not a "conspiracy theory" when it's true. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Tell you what.

When FEMA heards us off to those detention camps and kills us with those race specific GE viruses, then I'll owe you an apology.

[Lerkfish]

17. too late, then, and I won't want an apology

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Well, then.

That's all settled.

[Lerkfish]

23. well, what was your point, then?

If I"m right, it won't matter anymore that I was right, for any of us, so....I guess I didn't understand the purpose of your post.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. My point was...

that as long as you're buying the black helicopter stuff, "conspiracy theorist" is a shoe that fits.

But thanks for noticing the really obvious stuff, like Gitmo being bad and all.

[Lerkfish]

32. thanks for your input.

I pointed out the problems with Gitmo before the Iraq war, when everyone was claiming there was no way americans could abuse prisoners so no oversight was needed. I wasn't doing that here, but a site I frequented before I came here.
Sure, its obvious NOW, that's kinda my point.

and thanks for clarifying what the purpose of your post was: a snarky ad hominem.

feel better?

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. 'Everyone'? Amnesty International was complaining in Jan 2002

The chief medical officer of the human rights group, Amnesty International, Jim West, said the photographs were reminiscent of torture methods used in eastern Europe in the 1970s.
...
"There is no obvious explanation of these measures except an attempt to degrade the man," he told the newspaper.

Another human rights group said that not being able to see, hear, smell or touch would leave the prisoners feeling disorientated and suffering from hallucinations.
...
And in Britain, the chairwoman of Parliament's Human Rights Committee, Ann Clwyd, warned against "playing with human rights".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1771687.stm

The UK government was having to deny the torture, in Parliament, back in January 2002: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/commons/story/0,,637414,00.html

Loads of people were talking about it, almost as soon as the prisoners were taken there. It was obvious then, too. Just because you found some right wing loon somewhere on the internet who called you a 'conspiracy theorist', that doesn't show anything. I still see people claiming Saddam had WMD.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

37. I hate to break the news...

but everything Lerkfish mentioned in their original post was considered by many here to be complete bullshit when it was first reported. When the first DUers brought up PNAC and their agenda, they were poo pood by more than I care to remember. And as for that "obvious" GITMO stuff, even here on DU there was disbelief when it was first confirmed. There was a report of a Afghan man who was released from GITMO before the discovery of the abuse -- his story was that he'd seen the Koran was desecrated and that a woman had smeared menstrual blood on him. You should have seen the DUers who came out and said it was a load of crap. Many, many months later it was confirmed the story was absolutely true and some DUers had to eat crow.

I have been here 5+ years, and in that time I have seen some of the most crazy-ass shit you can imagine proven to be 100% true.

So don't be so damn quick to blow off what Lerkfish has to say. You too may find yourself eating a steaming serving of crow.

[glitch]

77. I remember when Tony Blair called PNAC an Internet conspiracy theory

And I keep pointing it out because it was a perfect example of a denier getting hoisted by time.

[HughBeaumont]

128. Internet Conspiracy Theories have websites and mission statements?

And high-powered signers?

Methinks BLIAR needs to lay off the Kool Aid.

[rinsd]

20. How to use faulty logic while seemingly employing common sense

I have been proven correct in my own mind on certain predictions therefore all prediction I make will prove to be correct.

[Lerkfish]

22. actually....

I said "MAY soon come to pass".
I do not believe that automatically anything I predict will happen, I"m making the point that what seems outrageous or unthinkable comes to pass with this administration. My comment is more to the point of the depravity and lack of morals of this administration and that counting on any sort of moral boundaries is pointless.

sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but hey, this way you got to slam me for no reason...feel better, now?

[file83]

86. Oh yeah, "rinsd", what's your logic?

"If your predictions aren't ALWAYS correct, then your predictions are useless."

According to your "logic" (or whatever childish attempt at thinking you call it), you should just go lock yourself in a closet.

Somehow in your mind, the term "conspiracy theorist" has morphed into "fortune teller". Tell me, have you ever actually put any thought/research into what is really going on in the world (I mean, other than what you were taught in school and spoon fed my the MSM)?

[rinsd]

103. Anti-chicken little is my logic.

Actual research vs. what some whacko posted on prisonplanet or what Wayne Madsen recently blovated.

What really slays me if people screaming about MSM then willfully sucking up any dreck which confirms their worldview and calling it "critical thinking".

[mirandapriestly]

106. Oh, another "critical thinker"

if the corporate media and the bush administation say it's true then it must be...that is the thinking I have seen from people on DU who call themselves "critical thinkers"

[salvorhardin]

107. Excluded middle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excluded_middle

[rinsd]

109. Tip of my cap to you...(nt)

[TheWatcher]

127. And a flip of my middle finger to you

I'll take Lerkfish's insight over your childish banter any day. :hi:

[Raster]

21. I'll kick it. I'm NINE! And I am a conspiracy factist. All things bush*

are rotten to the core. The truly gullible and naive believe these are the good guys.

[notadmblnd]

24. you won't see me argueing with yiou

nt

[Nikki Stone 1]

25. K & R

:kick:

[earth mom]

27. Word. The denial is breathtaking.

Even after every damn thing on your list has already been proven, unbelievably, we still have people around here that are so closed mind and in such deep denial as to defend the neocons by saying "Oh no, they wouldn't or couldn't possibly do "that"!"

:wtf:

Wake up and smell the corruption!

[bleever]

28. These days, if you're not a "conspiracy theorist",

you aren't paying attention.

K&R!

[whistle]

29. The real conspiracy theories are the official releases and talking points

...which come out of the Bush administration and the republican party IMHO

[Nikki Stone 1]

30. Why do you think they all want Lieberman and are protecting him?

" that DLC, RNC and necons all want Lieberman in so that implies something about their relationship to each other, "

[Lerkfish]

31. because they all have the same goal: corporate war profiteering

:shrug: and Joe is all for it.

[Nikki Stone 1]

36. Hmm...

He just seems to be a "made" guy in this cabal. But then, I am a :tinfoilhat:

[DemonFighterLives]

33. Now that I can follow

It all started with the Kennedy Assassination.
Of course the crazies never dealt weapons to Iran and interfered with the hostage situation -along with supporting the contras.
Of course the crazies never dealt weapons to Iraq
Of course they never allowed the alleged terrorists into the US
Of course we must now fight a war without end, Amen.
:dem:

[Straight Shooter]

35. A tinfoil hat is a bullshit detector.

If someone had told me 6 years ago that I would believe the things I'm believing now, I would have laughed my a** off at them.

I'm not laughing anymore.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. Isn't that the truth!

The first time I heard about PNAC I am ashamed to say I thought, "Whaaa????"

Now, there isn't just about any "conspiracy theory" I would dismiss before I took a long hard look at it.

[Telly Savalas]

38. Bullshit.

Most of the things you list weren't and were never remotely considered conspiracy theories by anyone except the radical right.

[dad]

40. I'm with telly

I call bullshit on the original post, because most of those things were not considered a conspiracy theory by anyone at any point.
Now if you want a real conspiracy theory, I don't believe anyone has ever actually landed on the moon!!

[Lerkfish]

47. I can only tell you the truth...

I left a mixed political board and came here because of being called a conspiracy theorist and a tin foil hatter for some of those things, and I've been called such here (even within this thread) for the others.
I never said in my post that this all occurred at DU, although a lot has!

[tom_paine]

97. dad, I call bullshit on your post

I've been at DU since April 2001, and yes...even here, most of these things as they were "speculated on" by myself and others, were treated by a substantial minority (perhaps even a majority, but I will not go so far as to speculate that)as "tinfoil hat" stuff.

And OUTSIDE of DU, EACH and EVERY THING was, and still is by many more than you would care to believe, the cognitive dissonace in this country is truly at nearly Nazi levels (luckily, the violence, barabrism, racism, and brutality level is not yet near those levels), considered "conspiracy theory".

"By anyone at any point?" did you REALLY say that?

I am speechless, except for calling bullshit on your retroactovely false "speculation".

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[buddysmellgood]

42. Hmmm...all those people calling you a conspiracy theorist sounds like a

conspiracy. ahha ha ha ha. You're a real tin foil hatter. :sarcasm:

[12string]

43. conspiracy theories

It still amazes me that no matter how many
vile,outrageous,unbelievable,dastardly deeds that ultimately
lay squarely on the shoulders of this evil administration and
are proved to not be a conspiracy theory at all and still so
many of the people even here,who seem to be more enlightened
than the masses,cannot bring themselves to accept MIHOP.Denial
is not just a river in Egypt.Until there is an independent
investigation into 9/11 so the truth can be told I guess I'll
be wearing my tinfoil hat 24/7.What will these evil incarnates
have to do before people realize that they are the enemy and
really are capable of even worse yet to come?Just because you
don't want to think it is true doesn't mean it isn't.I would
like to believe I am wrong about this but without a real
independent study instead of the whitewash the 9/11 commission
released I have no reason not to think the worst did happen.

[Zodiak]

45. Since I have the time

I will weigh in on this excellent post by Lerkfish.

Why do people feel the need to denigrate others for speculation if said speculation differs from accepted fact?

I think that there is a corrolation between being a "centrist" on DU and being a "skeptic". The two often go hand-in-hand, so I wonder if there is a linking factor to this?

Authoritarian personality? As John Dean states in his book, the Democrats have their share of them (in much lower numbers, comparatively with Republicans).

After all, most of the arguments against wild speculation is how others outside of DU will perceive us, as if the world cannot get enough of reading our inane screeds. Such an argument speaks of an intense desire to be accepted and to conform.

Centrism in the absent-minded knee-jerk sense derives from the same condition. CNN and MSNBC say that "undecided voters" and "centrists" are really the majority in this country, and campaigns are largely focused on them. Partisans are dismissed, so it pays to be a centrist to be heard and with the "in" crowd. In a way, being a moderate is a great way to get a lot of attention. No one likes the fringes, right? We hear that time and time again in arguments on DU. "You fringe lefties, looney liberals, etc." Once again, an argument based on conformity...."normalcy" becomes an end to itself.

I think that the some of the same people who always assume that the right answer is somewhere in the middle also assume the role of the aggressive skeptic whenever challenged with new ideas. It is a way to appear sensible, intellectual, and reasonable and to marginalize anyone else who does not mirror this stance. I consider such a person to be a pseudo-intellectual because such positions are knee-jerk and defended to the death. This is, of course, independent of the sort of skeptic that simply asks the right questions or presents conflicting evidence, the answers to which clearly lead to ALL involved into rejecting the speculation at hand.

As an example, farmer X sees some white light streaking off into the night, changing directions and speed a few times as it did so. He gets a shot of the thing on camera, but it is too far away to be clear. The true conspiracy theorist would automatically assume this was an alien spacecraft. The aggressive skeptic would automatically assume that the event was natural and explainable by mundane means (swamp gas, figment of the farmer's imagination) and call the farmer a liar or a nutter. An open minded or intellectual person would allow for the possibility of both and not form a "belief" either way without clearer evidence.

Of course, everything I say here is entirely speculative. :)

[Lerkfish]

53. what a thoughtful post! thank you for posting it.

I think its interesting that the term "conspiracy theorist" or "tin foil hatter" are used to shut down conversations rather than address issues.
I think if someone said "I don't think that will happen because a, b, c" -- that's great, that's a discussion.
When they simpley attack you as a conspiracy theorist and don't address any point you've made, it is clear what their purpose is.

[tom_paine]

98. So very well said, Ironfist

And let us not forget what societal norms have been, particularly in nations who are currently or trending strongly towards Totalitarianism.

"When everyone is transformed, no one is transformed."
--Milton Meyer "They Thought They Were Free"

And our norm is rapidly trending towards something horrifying.

[pooja]

46. I've got to give you props with the martial law thing.

When katrina happened, they allowed those people to suffer.. They cited, we can't get in blah, blah,.. we didn't know (when cnn is on ground with camera's)... Why did they wait 3 days.. so America said govt do something.. What did they do... institute martial law. Catastrophy hit, and the American people allowed martial law to be instituted within the country. We just sat by and said.. about time the govt did something to "help"... wouldn't be surprised if we weren't in for a dictatorship at the end of 07...

[PhilYerHead]

48. Thanks Lerkfish, you are a hero along with so many others. Kudos!

No more need to be said, just thank you so much for giving credibility to all us tin foilers!

Peace.

S

[Lerkfish]

54. thanks, but I'm no hero. I just sit aghast and whiteknuckled as I see

where these guys are headed. I bring up what it looks like to me. I project what appears to be the ultimate goal or try to cut through the distraction.
Anybody can do it, if they open their minds.

[Philosoraptor]

49. for 6 years now, this insult has been very effective

all one has to do to instantly shut down all discussion of bushco and the neocons is two words: conspiracy theorist

[Lerkfish]

55. its a codpiece to perform an avoidance of accountability

If I'm a conspiracy theorist then no one need investigate, and the perpetrators go free or are at least enabled.

The problem is essentially this conceptual barrier "They would NEVER do such a thing!". Until you mentally remove that barrier, you will never see what they are actually doing.

Approving torture is a biggie for me. I never thought america would unabashedly be in the business of torturing large groups of people (as it turns out, many of them innocent).

To use that as an example: If Waldo thinks "They would NEVER do such a thing as torture people", when the evidence starts to come out, Waldo will automatically dismiss the first reports, then as reports accumulate, he will accuse people that connect the dots of having an agenda, because after all, americans would never torture people so someone who keeps bringing it up must have an agenda. And, as more and more reports come out, Waldo will start demanding proof, and then discounting out of hand any proof offered. Finally, his mind reaches a conundrum: he does not want to believe there is torture, yet the evidence seems clear. He cannot reconcile these two things, so instead he starts attacking whoever keeps bringing it up. Maybe they'll go away. Maybe Waldo will never have to resolve the conflict in his own mind if no one brings it up again.

[berni_mccoy]

51. "I simply think of the absolute worst thing they could do"

EXACTLY. That's all there is to predicting these evil sobs. And most of the time, it's all motivated by money/greed.

Just look at the chart in my sig. If it's not obvious after looking at that chart, then you've been drinking the kool-aide.

Hooray for Lerkfish!

[DemReadingDU]

67. I love your graph!

Somebody is making money on gas at $3.00 gallon!

[Prophet 451]

52. I too am a conspiracy theorist

What is a conspiracy? Two or more people working in secret to achieve some illegal and/or unethical goal. That's it.

Conspiracies happen all the time. Every coup is, by definition, a conspiracy. Every gang dealing crack is a conspiracy. Al Quieda is a conspiracy (or a mass of smaller conspiracies, depending on how you look at it) but, talk about conspiracies and you're suddenly persona non grata, one of the "tinfoil hat" brigade, a situation which, probably not conincidently, works in favour of those running real conspiracies.

Quick quiz, which of these were real conspiracies:
Watergate
Iran-Contra
Gunpowder Plot
assassination of JFK
MK-ULTRA/DELTA/NAOMI
Operation Grillflame
The Cambridge Spies

Answer: The ONLY one there's still any doubt about is JFK. The rest were all real and confirmed by sources beyond dispute and in several cases, official records. Watergate, Iran-Contra and the Gunpowder Plot hopefully need no explanation. MK-ULTRA was a program run from the late fifties to the early seventies experimenting with the possibility of mind control techniques. MK-DELTA was a chemical weapons program running at about the same time. MK-NAOMI was the manufacture and storage arm for both. The only matter up for dispute is how much success they had (presumably, not much since their funding was revoked). Operation Grillflame was an experiment conducted under the auspices of MK-ULTRA experimenting on American soldiers with LSD. The Cambridge Spies were of at least four spies, led by Kim Philby, who were active in the UK government. Three defected to the USSR, the fourth is still unknown.

Conspiracies are real and they happen all around us, all the time. If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention.

[Solon]

125. I agree...

Though you forgot a few confirmed conspiracies like:

Operation Paperclip(smuggling of Nazi SS officers into the US so they can convey intelligence on the USSR)

PNAC I don't really view as a conspiracy, because they were by and large PUBLIC, I mean, they have a website, its just that no one noticed them during ALL this time, till many members were elected/appointed into power. I mean, they talked about deposing Saddam back in 1998 or so, so it was no secret, so to speak. This isn't a conspiracy, its a business plan.

Cheney's secret meeting with Oil Execs could also be considered a conspiracy, I mean, where the FUCK are the public records on what happened during that meeting.

There is also "Air America", not the radio station, but the airline, that smuggled drugs for the CIA for its "black budget", not to mention the numerous times that the CIA interfered with democracies around the world.

Could mention the Tuskegee experiments, in addition to the Army's use of chemical weapons on Americans, including children.

I could go on, but none of this is "Tinfoil Hat" type of stuff, but simply a matter of fact for history. How we are judged in the centuries ahead, who knows, the 20th Century may go down as the bloodiest(it already has), but in addtion, the United States as the one with the most bloody hands.

[SmokingJacket]

56. The term "conspiracy theory" ought to be retired.

It has become an ad hominem attack to mean "you're a nutball, and I'm not even going to bother addressing your arguments." No one wants to be thought of as crazy, so calling them that is just a way to make them shut up. It's become a very effective psychological tool for closing down conversation, and a logical fallacy, to boot.

Of course, there ARE conspiracies (people get indicted for it all the time), and there's nothing inherently wrong with theorizing.

The government DOES lie to us, and the media DO get stories wrong.

I'm pretty darn paranoid -- but over and over again, reality turns out to be even more far out than I suspected. I thought there would be a least A FEW WMD in Iraq! But... nothing!

People DID conspire, DID create false documents, in order to pull the wool over our eyes about Iraq. As just one example.

[Taxloss]

58. I wouldn't call you a conpiracy theorist for those things.

A revisionist, certainly, maybe even a fantasist for posting something so riddled with BS, but not a conspiracy theorist.

[Lerkfish]

59. do tell

revisionist in what way?
fantasist in what way?
what parts read like BS to you?

[NoSheep]

61. I'd also like to know. Where's the BS in the OP?

[Taxloss]

69. Revisionist in the sense of ahistorical and inaccurate;

Fantasist in the sense of apparently largely based on fantasy;
And most of it reads like BS. I challenge you to provide examples of you being called a conspiracy theorist for any of these things.

[Lerkfish]

74. LOL!

so you got nothing.

instead of clarifying YOUR charge, you just repeat it.
THEN you demand I prove your charge incorrect.

may I politely refer you to post #1 in this thread?

[Taxloss]

78. It's a good job I'm not busy.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush was going to abandon diplomacy and invade Iraq.

Rubbish. It was common currency that Bush was itching to have a pop at Iraq from 1999, when he said as much in a TV interview. The sabres were rattling before 9/11. After 9/11 the only surprising thing was that diplomacy was gestured towards at all, not that it was abandonned.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the weapons inspectors, including Scott Ritter said there were no WMDs.

Also rubbish. Scott Ritter's remarks were published in every newspaper in the UK. And Blix was saying as much.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that having no purview at Guantanamo Bay was an open door to abuses.

Who claimed that a prison outside international law was immune from abuse? The very fact it was set up in the way it was indicated that Bush had little interest in treating the inmates according to international law.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the Bush administration was probably using the patriot act to spy on us domestically, including peace activists

Domestic surveillance was the stated intent of the Patriot Act.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that terror alerts seemed to coincide with low poll ratings for Bush

You can have this one, but you were far from alone in noticing the pattern.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush was trying to get control of all three branches of government

Rubbish. Any and all political machines want to maximise their hold on government, it's absurd to expect them to behave otherwise. And the increasing predominance of the Republicans was a broadly recognised fact from the "contract with America" onwards.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the line between "suspected terrorist" and "dissident" was going to blur and disappear.

I doubt it.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that there was such a group as the "neocons"

Even the neocons were calling themselves neocons from the late 1990s onwards. It was hardly a secret organisation.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the neocons had influence in the brand new Bush administration

I doubt it. It was a commonly reported fact.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush's first cabinent was completely composed of war hawks and oil company hacks, and that that meant we were probably heading for a war over oil.

This fact was commonly noted. Dude, Cheney was VP, of course it was noted.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Diebold was owned by a high donating republican operative.

Again, not exactly a secret.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the gang of 14 would lead to packing the supreme court with the most outrageously conservative lineup, with no opposition.

It was common knowledge that Bush's debt to the ultra-social-conservative Christian right was intended to be paid in the Supreme Court.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush would probably recess appoint Bolton

Not something I know about.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that just because they're US soldiers, does not mean they'll always be fair and treat prisoners well.

Where were you during Vietnam?

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that whistleblowers would be persecuted

Whistleblowers are always persecuted - such is their lot.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that we would be torturing prisoners, I was told no not us, not us americans.

I refer you to my responses to the Guantanamo and US soldier posts. When Guanatanamo was set up - the same week - Time magazine made torture in the USA its cover story. Hardly a secret.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Abu Ghraib was a lot more than just a few "bad apples".

Not an area I know a great deal about.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the swiftboaters were probably organized and funded by a right wing organization

Duh! You mean people were claiming they weren't political? I doubt it.

So, in summary, what you've done is cobble together a list of things that were well known among anyone who read the papers, and certainly anyone on DU, and painted it as though you were the only voice in the wilderness making these claims and everyone was against you. That is not what happened, and therefore you are guilty of revisionism.

[Lerkfish]

81. I.do.not.lie.

I also did not say all those things happened here. I also am telling you pointblank that I have been called those things in various places for those various things.

you can choose not to believe me, that's your prerogative. But I know I am not lying. And I also know you are mischaracterizing what I said for whatever purpose, so I again refer you back to post #1 in this thread.

-------------
People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush was going to abandon diplomacy and invade Iraq.


Rubbish. It was common currency that Bush was itching to have a pop at Iraq from 1999, when he said as much in a TV interview. The sabres were rattling before 9/11. After 9/11 the only surprising thing was that diplomacy was gestured towards at all, not that it was abandonned.

not rubbish. I was called this 3 months prior to the invasion, on the Macnn forums. I was being told by republicans on the board that Bush was just "saber-rattling" and I pointed out that he fully intended to invade.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the weapons inspectors, including Scott Ritter said there were no WMDs.

Also rubbish. Scott Ritter's remarks were published in every newspaper in the UK. And Blix was saying as much.

not rubbish. at the time, Ritter's remarks were widely disparaged and marginalized. nearly everyone discussing it on the Macnn forums made the comment that to believe Ritter was to be working for the terrorists

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that having no purview at Guantanamo Bay was an open door to abuses.

Who claimed that a prison outside international law was immune from abuse? The very fact it was set up in the way it was indicated that Bush had little interest in treating the inmates according to international law.

you're making the same argument I did, and its a very good argument. The difference is, now its after the fact. I made that argument when Gitmo was first set up, before we invaded Iraq. and again, I KNOW how I was treated for saying that. you don't.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the Bush administration was probably using the patriot act to spy on us domestically, including peace activists

Domestic surveillance was the stated intent of the Patriot Act.
spying on protestors was part of the Patriot Act? I was unaware of that.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that terror alerts seemed to coincide with low poll ratings for Bush

You can have this one, but you were far from alone in noticing the pattern.
NOR have I claimed to have been alone on any of these observations -- that assumption is all yours and you're welcome to it.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush was trying to get control of all three branches of government

Rubbish. Any and all political machines want to maximise their hold on government, it's absurd to expect them to behave otherwise. And the increasing predominance of the Republicans was a broadly recognised fact from the "contract with America" onwards.

do a google search on "lerkfish" and "three prong" and "theory"

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the line between "suspected terrorist" and "dissident" was going to blur and disappear.

I doubt it.
doubt all you want, its true, but not here (nor have I claimed as much)

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that there was such a group as the "neocons"

Even the neocons were calling themselves neocons from the late 1990s onwards. It was hardly a secret organisation.

however, where I was at at the time: Macnn forums and political crossfire forums, this was heavily denied that they even existed, or that they had influence. Even though I could provide a link to the PNAC. What I said is true.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the neocons had influence in the brand new Bush administration

I doubt it. It was a commonly reported fact.

NOT when I said it, it wasn't. Its accepted NOW. To pretend otherwise would be revisionist.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush's first cabinent was completely composed of war hawks and oil company hacks, and that that meant we were probably heading for a war over oil.

This fact was commonly noted. Dude, Cheney was VP, of course it was noted.

but no one agreed with me that it meant we were heading for a war for oil. I even had a bet with a coworker that Bush would get into a war in the middle east before 2yrs into his presidency, and we made the bet before Bush was "selected", but had chosen his cabinet.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Diebold was owned by a high donating republican operative.

Again, not exactly a secret.

At the time I said, it was not commonly known. It is NOW, of course. Look, you're just going to keep saying that what is known or understood NOW means that everyone ALWAYS understood it, and that's incorrect and revisionist.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the gang of 14 would lead to packing the supreme court with the most outrageously conservative lineup, with no opposition.

It was common knowledge that Bush's debt to the ultra-social-conservative Christian right was intended to be paid in the Supreme Court.
Yet, at the time, even here, we kept hearing about "keeping the powder dry". Are you denying there were people here arguing FOR the gang of 14? if so your memory is faulty.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Bush would probably recess appoint Bolton

Not something I know about.
Right, finaly honesty. You don't about ANY of these, but it did not prevent you from calling me a liar, now did it?

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that just because they're US soldiers, does not mean they'll always be fair and treat prisoners well.

Where were you during Vietnam?

I was a preteen. is that relevant? I was still called that for suggesting it, and worse, at the Macnn forums and political crossfire

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that whistleblowers would be persecuted

Whistleblowers are always persecuted - such is their lot.
this disproves what I said....how?

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that we would be torturing prisoners, I was told no not us, not us americans.

I refer you to my responses to the Guantanamo and US soldier posts. When Guanatanamo was set up - the same week - Time magazine made torture in the USA its cover story. Hardly a secret.

I begin to see the problem: you're arguing what I pointed out was known or accepted, therefore no one called me a conspiracy theorist or tin foil hatter and therefore I'm lying, when the truth is people called me that EVEN WHEN it was apparent what I said had validity. I fear you have missed the entire point of the OP, which is not surprising.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Abu Ghraib was a lot more than just a few "bad apples".

Not an area I know a great deal about.
if only that prevented you from speaking about the other issues....sad, really. you know nothing about what I personally have gone through.

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that the swiftboaters were probably organized and funded by a right wing organization

Duh! You mean people were claiming they weren't political? I doubt it.

reading comprehension, much? "probably organized and funded" is the important element there. try to keep up, eh?

So, in summary, what you've done is cobble together a list of things that were well known among anyone who read the papers, and certainly anyone on DU, and painted it as though you were the only voice in the wilderness making these claims and everyone was against you. That is not what happened, and therefore you are guilty of revisionism.

and so, in summary, you're jumped to a great deal of incorrect conclusions, and based on those incorrect conclusions, decided to accuse me of revisionism. I challenge you to find where I said I was the "only voice in the wilderness". In fact, I knew I wasn't and that's why I started this thread, for all the OTHER people who have gone through what I have.

Tell you what, next time you make accusations based on your own flawed understandings, just refer yourself to post #1 again.

[Taxloss]

85. Of course, of course, you were fighting the good fight in thickets of

ignorance on a completely different forum, how foolish of me to assume that you meant here. For the record, I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm accusing you of distorted presentation, unfounded broad-brush generalisation, and faulty logic. It's hardly my fault if you chose to spend your time on another forum arguing with people who clearly don't read the newspaper, and don't accuse me of lying either. I was honest enough to point out the areas that I didn't know anything about, a quality conspicuously absent from the vast bulk of DU's tinfoilers who speculate wildly at the drop of a hat and have filled an entire forum with earnest debate of subjects they know nothing about.

What your obvious intention was to add credibility to the loonier theories by saying that you were called a conspiracy theorist in the past for perfectly straightforward statements that really bear little insight for anyone who makes the slightest effort to keep up with current affairs. That's a very lazy strategy - I was right about this, so I'm right about that.

Everything I stated in my rebuttals of your points was honest and accurate. You can hardly claim that the neocons were an unknown force when Dick Cheney, their spititual leader, was Vice President. If people called you a conspiracy theorist for that, that's their problem, it doesn't make you more credible. It would be easy and entertaining to come up with a counter-list of the different dates that the tinfoilers have floated for the imposition of martial law, or the draft, or the suspension of the constitution, or when we were meant to have invaded Iran, or when the 2004 election was called off, or "I bet there'll be an attack this weekend" or claiming that Katrina was being steered by Bushco weathercontrol operatives, or that Ken Lay is alive, or that Bush caused the Tsunami, or that the 7/7 London bombings were caused to distract attention from Cindy Sheehan. It would be an extremely long list.

[Lerkfish]

87. "If people called you a conspiracy theorist"

um, yeah, that's the point of the thread, that people called me that.

sheesh.

[Zodiak]

90. I believe

That the OP floated exactly which new conspiracies are to be given more credibility (at the end), and it wasn't the ones you listed. One could argue that you are the one distorting, now. Stick with the contentions at hand, and do not falsely associate the OP poster with people who believe Bush has a tsunami-making machine.

Also, cut out words like "tin-foil", "looney", and "rubbish" and you will receive a less defensive and antagonistic reply. After all, everyone here can agree that your point can get across without the use of charged, derogatory language. Your language does not denote speaking to a peer, but rather, a pupil.

In normal crowds in the US, a person would have been accused of being a whacko conspiracy theorist if they had mentioned any of those ideas a few years ago. I have anecdotally experienced a lot of it, myself, which is why I know the OP to be true.

Lerkfish is not distorting or using fatastical thinking. A lot of the marginalization of those that didn't trust Bush happened after 9/11, even among Democrats (remember the 90% approval rating?).

[orleans]

82. pfft!

[tom_paine]

102. Taxloss, do you actually speak to any real people in person?

I ask this because your windy post is so utterly alien to my actual experience of talking, literally to hundreds of people about this over the past six years.

Believe me or not as you like, I recognize my evidence is anecdotal and unprovable. But it is what it is and I will say it.

Since Dec 2001, I have been extremely vocal and have been "Paul Revere-ing", trying to wake people up for that long, too.

It causes me problems at work, with my friends, and in social situations with acquaintences and strangers, but the situation is too dire in my opinion to be silent.

"He who is silent is assumed to consent."
--Anonymous

“To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men.”
--Abraham Lincoln

So, now you know where I am coming from and why I can say I have discussed all of Lerkfish's specualtions (which mirror my own) with 100s of people, from dearest family to total strangers.

I live in a bluish purple region with PLENTY of Busheviks and Fellow Travellers, and I am not even talking about THEM, who would at THIS MINUTE believe most of his points were tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.

And the rest...Lerkfish is 100% correct in his assertions that almost all of his speculations were very much considered tinfoil by large segments of the population...and some still are. Don't even get me started about the lack of integrity in the voting system, which is still tinfoil to 90% of the population (60% at the absolute minimum).

In fact, Taxloss, feel free to post a poll in GD asking this question or something like it: "What percentage of people you talk to about these listed "conspiracy theories" (which you maintain weren't any such thing at any time, even Oct. 2001 or Jan 2002 when Chimp's approval rating were 90%) were receptive to your ideas?" Or "What perecentage of them, in the period of 2001-2003, thought you were a tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorist when you brought up one of Lerkfish's points?"

Bet the answer to that second one in greater than 50%

We shall see what happens if you try.

I don't know whether you are in a position of power, and thus your employees won't disagree with you, or if you are revising your own experiences, or if you don't bring these things up to real live people to guage their response, or if you live in some freethinking paradise where no one criticizes anyone else (tell me where it is and I'll move there), but your main point, that none of Lerksfish's points were EVER considered "conspiracy theories" is astonishing and I am almost thinking of questioning your truthfullness or memory, that off base it is!

[Sterling]

123. Those things did happen here.

I am not sure why you seem to want to spend so much time arguing this when so many long time posters are trying to correct you. I have been here since 2001. People had a very hard time wrapping their heads around how truly fucked up the BushCo PNAC crowd was/is. PNAC stands out clearly to me as something there was a very heated debate about for a week so as to if it was real or not.

[salvorhardin]

89. Which begs the question, What *is* a conspiracy theorist

Or conspiracist, which is the term I prefer.

It denotes a worldview defined by the belief that the primary force moving history is that of the secret machinations of improbably powerful organizations, religions or ethnic groups. It places the legal doctrine of "Cui bono?" on a tall pedestal as the preferred method of analysis over all others. It is a narrative form of scapegoating, where what its' adherents believe, or the factual accuracy of those beliefs, are not nearly so important as how they believe.

[Taxloss]

91. What I dislike about hardcore conspiracists is that they foster an

atmosphere of helpless defeatism. If the Powers That Be can steer hurricanes, cause tsunamis and micro-manage global events, then why bother doing anything to stop them? All their opponents are killed or otherwise destroyed, all the elections are fixed, so what's the point in simple political activism?

Indeed, if I wanted to disrupt a large and popular left-leaning discussion board with an activist intent, I would be a conspiracy theorist - tell people not to bother doing anything because all events are outside their control, divert time and resources from valuable activism into fruitless dead-ends, and deter people from signing up to the board into the bargain.

[salvorhardin]

95. According to Chip Berlet

Willis Carto and associates have been using the LaRouchies to spread disinformation to the left for years Not to internet discussion boards per se, but to leftie journalists who think the LaRouchies have some kind of special insight into the workings of Washington.
On edit: Here's a link. http://www.publiceye.org/rightwoo/rwooz9-40.html#P619_250317

Yes, I think defeatism is certainly one of the dangers of conspiracism.

Another relates to the use of Cui Bono? as the sole explanatory method of analysis, i.e. it leads to a perpetual missing of the point. Cui Bono simply has inadequate explanatory power when it comes to anything remotely complex and it presumes guilt -- that someone *must* be guilty.

The third danger of conspiracism is the possibility that people will act on their faulty analysis and move from passive scapegoating to active persecution. Witch hunts suck.

[Sterling]

124. Try separating the ridiculous from the possible.

And get off your high horse about what people should speculate on. You sight the most outrageous 'theories" and pretend that those are the only topics that are "conspiracy theories". It really is amazing you are not aware that all of those things listed in the op were very controversial and many people even here fought very hard to not accept them.


Surely you capable of not being gullible while at the same time keeping an open mind? As far as defeatism, which is worse on the moral of the typical American voter, people discussing the fact that our elections have been compromised with electronic paperless voting machines or the fact that we actually have paperless electronic voting machines. What you seem to suggest is that people live in denial to keep their spirits up?

[NoSheep]

60. Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!! Can I quote you? I love this post!!!!!

[Lerkfish]

65. absolutely

feel free.

[Festivito]

62. Some people think there has NEVER been a conspiracy.

So, I ask them: why do we have conspiracy laws?
They tend just to walk away.

[ElboRuum]

63. You're just a loony-toon.

Don't sweat it.

I too have been called a conspiracy theorist because of much of what you said. Your methodologies are quite similar to mine:

1) Think about what would be good for you or what you believe would be good for the country.
2) Take its direct opposite and imagine it being enacted.
3) Imagine the worst kind of morally bankrupt reasoning to justify it.
4) Watch the news for confirmation.
5) Repeat as necessary.

[leesa]

66. Isn't it weird to be right about so many bizarre things?

I have never before been into "conspiracy theory" type subjects until my awareness of the Bush Crime Family came about and I realized they weren't fantasy theories but the true workings of a massively powerful criminal enterprise. This is a crime syndicate and these things are really happening in a global theater.

[Beelzebud]

68. The reaction was interesting after the last British terror theat.

I was literally called a "tin foil hatter" for expressing my suspicions about the timing of the terror threat. I thought it was odd that it broke the day after Lieberman lost to Lamont.

As the days went on, my supicions were proven correct. They had busted a bunch of people like the "miami 7". A bunch of people that had no plan, no bombs, no nothing. There was no "imminent threat" posed by these people, and British authorities later claimed they had disagreed with the Bush Administration's releasing of the information when they did. The Bush Crime Family used this bust of a bunch of college kids and middle class people as a distraction from the fact that Neo-Conservative, Joe Liberman just had his ass handed to him by a Liberal Democrat, Ned Lamont.

What boggles my mind is that after 5 years of this bullshit, there are still Democrats, who are intelligent people, that will still buy into these terror threats without question. The fact that reasonable thinking people would not even question the timing of these, is astounding to me. How many times does this type of stuff have to be used directly for political reasons, before some people stop and question what they are being spoon-fed?

[Taxloss]

70. They found bomb parts, martyrdom videos and charged 11 people.

They had a plan, and they were building bombs.

On edit: contrary to the belief of some people here, British security policy is not dictated to coincide with internecine scuffles within the American Democratic party. The world does not orbit around the USA news agenda.

[Beelzebud]

71. Yeah, except for the ones they've released without filing charges...

See what I mean?

[Taxloss]

72. Most Brits have never even heard of Lamont or Lieberman.

But this plot has dominated our news agenda, and is big in Europe also, whre more arrests are being made. I know it's important to you guys, but the Lamont business is irrelevant to us.

[Beelzebud]

73. The news coverage here in the U.S. wasn't meant for the Brits.

When the U.S. has a terror alert, does your media report on it non-stop and ignore every other story?

I'm not saying the story was compltely bogus. I'm just saying the U.S. media and government used it. 2 days before the story broke Dick Cheney is out saying a vote for guys like Lamont would embolden the terrorists. He KNEW about this investigation, and he KNEW that arrests were made. The media here sat on that story until the DAY AFTER the CT primary. There is no coincidence there. And now that time has passed we are seeing some of them being released without having charges filed because this, like most terror threats these days, are more about control, than protection.

Now that they are releasing some of the people it barely gets mentioned. They are too busy with the 10 year old murder case of the white rich girl.

[tom_paine]

105. So, you are arguing that it is a "conspiracy theory"?

Here's a more plausible. The plot was perhaps legitimate, but the Bushies, for political reasons coerced/convinced the Brits to move earlier than they wanted. If I am not mistaken, this has already been presented on the BBC and some newspapers picked up the story briefly.

Does that mean it's true? No, but it would be a more credible version of the POSSIBILITY that Imperial politics influenced the timing of the arrests.

Why only 11 charged? Perhaps the Brits moved too early, before they had all their pieces of evidence in place to nail ALL the bastards!

Why would they do a foolish thing like that?

Just speculating. They let half the bunch get away because the moved on them TOO early. That is now pretty much a fact, at least. Half did walk.

Why?

[salvorhardin]

110. American exceptionalism

Boy, that's the kind of American exceptionalism you'd expect to hear from the far right -- just with a lefty twist.

[Joanne98]

76. Really. I posted before I went to work early in the morning....

To say....Happy election season. I don't know if I got dissed, I don't care. I thought it was FAKE and it WAS! Maybe we should start a "always right club". LOL

[Joanne98]

75. I usually believe the worse because I know how evil they are.

I hate the idea of 800 FEMA camps but I know it's true. I also know that none of this would be happening if we weren't being betrayed by our Dem leaders. That really pisses me off.

[paparush]

79. When they came for the Conspiracy Theorists..I did not speak out because

I was not a Conspiracy Theorist..

[Taxloss]

92. I'll keep an eye out for "them" coming for the conspiracy theorists.

At the moment, they seem perfectly happy.

[flyarm]

80. People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out :

People called me a conspiracy theorist when I pointed out that Norad and the FAA lied to the 9/11 commission!

and now the commissioners have proven me right! And many of the victims families right!

pretty shitty now to be proven right , when many of us were demanding the commission put them under oath ..because they were lying!..and the commission failed to do so..

and also failed to ask Giuliani the questions that needed to be answered by that son of a bitch!

under oath..


THANKS LERKFISH..AND THE DAY THEY CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AND GET RID OF THE FIRST WORDS..WE THE PEOPLE ..I WILL CONTINUE TO DO MY JOB OF ASKING QUESTIONS

and demanding answers..

there are many ways to ask questions..the most damning way is the wrong way..assuring you will not get the right answer...asking questions without the reasonable assumption you will get the right answer or truthful answer..

that is what the 9/11 commission did ..and what our media does daily.


fly

[Lerkfish]

83. interesting related thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1982613&mesg_id=1982613

[LynneSin]

84. You use your brain, that's why you're a Conspiracy Theorist.

If you didn't - we'd call you a sheep

[file83]

88. The thing that is funny about this Bush Administration is that...

...anyone trying to do analysis of it must automatically become a "conspiracy theorist". It's the most secretive administration in our nation's history and they are up to a lot nasty deeds, in case anyone hasn't noticed.

So, when you mix 1 part Secrecy with 1 part Executive Branch with 2 parts War...you get conspiracy theories, that is, until the theories materialize into actual events.

[MysteryToMyself]

104. I will go a step farther and say 90% of what has happened since

Clinton was elected was a conspiracy. Most of the Media, the brokerage houses, the rich, the corporations including the oil companies and a lot of powerful Democrats and 99% of the Republicans were all in on it.

All those birds of a feather didn't just find each other, they have planned and plotted for years. First they start badmouthing public schools, Welfare, entitlements, telling the young Social Security won't be there for them and blasting the government through the Media and lobbyists hired to influence even the average person.

They softened us up so it was easy to take away the Welfare Cadillacs, throw Medicare to the health and insurance fields.....easy to say grandma was greedy and lazy and wanted the young to support her when she had contributed to the pool of money of SS for 50 years. They are still working toward privatized schools and throwing our retirement to the Wall Street crowd.

I have been my own worst enemy by seeing, but not believing what was going on. They have privatized our parks in a way... we have toll highways owned by foreigners. The post office won't compete with the US Parcel Post or the other companies like that.

The guy who was supposed to keep the markets honest, said later that he knew the market was a bubble, but he didn't want the crash that would happen, if he told. (so he let it get bigger and bigger and let us lose our butts) He told that himself, and still it took three years to really soak in. I can't think of his name, it wasn't Rubin.

If I mentioned even one thing, others would look at me like "huh?" Others said no one would be that conniving. I would push the thoughts away, but I shouldn't have. It has been a long twenty years, watching them all and counting on the Democrats and being disappointed.

There is much much more but I don't have time to do right by all of it in this post. A lot of it is what you have already written. Plus, our parties have been hijacked.

We have been Bushwacked and worse, betrayed.

[malaise]

99. Great post

You should call this the ABCs of the PNAC.

[EstimatedProphet]

100. I'm right with you there

I'm amazed at how blind Americans can be. I remember the buildup to the Iraq war, and everyone was saying "There's no way we'll be going" and at the same time saying it was justified for 9/11, and no one even saw the conflict in the statements, or how patently stupid they were.

[savemefromdumbya]

101. The excrement hasn't hit the fan about 911 yet?

911 inside job CT/tinfoil up til now.....get out the popcorn

[Solomon]

108. From one proud conspiracy theorist to another, thank you for this great

post. (Bowing solemnly)

Well said and I concur. :grouphug:

[Blue_Tires]

111. ttt !!

[Lerkfish]

112. thanks to everyone who nominated this thread!

I never expected so many nominations. thanks everyone!

[bobthedrummer]

113. kick.

[Lerkfish]

114. Kickety-kick

[EFerrari]

115. I just read this whole thread. It's a good illustration of the OP

isn't it?

:)

[Lerkfish]

116. yah, isn't it interesting?

its a good illustration of how that epithet is used in attempt to marginalize and shut down critics of the Bush administration (or insert any cause here that doesn't want speculation).

[EFerrari]

117. Great work, Lerkfish. Thank you.

:)

[Octafish]

118. CIA policy to label those who go against the grain 'conspiracy theorist.'

Great post, Lerkfish.

The Waybac coughed up my 2-cents on the subject:

A Short History of "Conspiracy Theory"

[misanthrope]

119. Do you have a link...

...regarding genetically coded bioweapons?

[Lerkfish]

121. do a google search on "PNAC" "genetic" "weapon"

happy reading!

[Solon]

126. First go here:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm

Then download "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century", its a PDF, published in September of 2000, two things of interest in the document, go to page 51 and you find this:

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a New Pearl Harbor.

The next item of interest is this, on page 60:

Information systems will become an important focus of attack, particularly for U.S. enemies seeking to short-circuit sophisticated American forces. And advanced forms of biological warfare that can “target” specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool.

There you go. Read the ENTIRE document, they talk about weaponizing space, with military forces, all sorts of scary shit, and they make no bones about it, they plan on implementing this plan, you will find their members(notable ones), here:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Look at whose names are at the bottom of the page.

[KBlagburn]

120. The way to debunk anyone who calls you a conspiracy theorist

In theory, if you buy a lottery ticket you could win the lottery.
If you buy a lottery ticket, it becomes a possibility you will win.
The more lottery tickets you buy increases the probability you will win.

It works the same with anything.

If you can prove a fact, it ceases being a theory and becomes a possibility. The more facts you have the more it becomes a probability.

Thats the way criminal trials are won or lost. You start with a theory that the person is guilty. If you can produce a fact, then it is possible the person is guilty. The more facts you produce, then guilt ceases being possible and becomes probable.

[dogday]

122. Conspiracy is Government's middle name

these days... Does anyone really know the truth about this administration? I believe that we are getting the biggest pile of dung spoon fed to us... That we should not believe half of what we see and all of what we hear.... Can't help it... If someone would tell the freaking truth, maybe there would not be so many theories...