Why Are Many Progressives Willing To Believe That Major News Events...

[arwalden]

... are "manufactured" by Rove as some sort of "distraction" so that other more important news stories are "ignored" by the press. (And by "more important", that usually means stories that are critical of Bush, or which are embarrassing to Bush and/or Republicans in general.)

Whether it's an earthquake, or flood, or some headline-grabbing celebrity news story, there are many progressives who predictably complain that the "MSM" is taking Rove's bait so that something else goes un- or under-reported.

Does any rational person honestly believe that Rove is THAT powerful? (Remember the folks who were convinced that the Christmas tsunami was intentionally caused by a nuclear explosion at the underwater fault?)

And now, with the Jon-Benet Ramsey murder arrest we're ALSO supposed to believe that this a masterful Rovian-decoy? -- Good grief! Give me a break!

News happens... they can't ALL be stories that put Bush in a negative light. It's not a big plot. Get real! Learn to cope.

Frankly, I think it makes progressives look like unthinking, gullible, and paranoid idiots. Grow up already!

Okay, that's all I had to say. Thank you for reading my rant. :hi:

(Flame away if you must... but you know I'm right.)

[Singular73]

1. I agree.

[niyad]

2. PLEASE city ONE instance where someone has stated that earthquake

or other natural disaster coverage is a rovian plot.

[Rex]

5. You didn't hear?

Rove lives at the center of the Earth and makes it spin spin spin.

[WilliamPitt]

13. Um

There were dozens of threads after the Pacific tsunami claiming they were man-made, caused by undersea nukes, and some even said yes, it was designed as a distraction. The threads were all locked, but it got so bad that Skinner had to say something about it.

[salinen]

35. Wow, how ridiculous

the tsunami was caused by conventional explosives.

[Posteritatis]

37. Hell, that made the New York Times. (n/t)

[KoKo]

83. And you read every one of them? Enough to count them all?

Sheesh..I was here and saw ONE post with a long thread of DU'ers pointing out to the poster why what they said had no factual or scientific basis.

I don't know where the other eleven that you read were but maybe I had the good sense to pass them by figuring the "stone" awaited the poster or the subject line was too silly to bother with. Maybe lots of other people didn't see these posts because they had the same reaction. :shrug:

[lvx35]

128. That's not a progressive thing though...

I heard it that originally from conservatives...I remember thinking "wow, these guys will do anything to frame events as being related to terrorism".

[mhatrw]

131. Dozens?

For some reason, I find that hard to believe. Were they from people who still post here?

[question everything]

103. At a supermarket recently, spouse overheard an elderly man

buttonholing a couple. First, there was about 9/11, how the "government" brought down the buildings. Then, he added, the "government" also brought in Katrina. That the "government" can make hurricanes.

There are many here, on DU, that still believe the a "government" - Israeli or the American - was behind 9/11. Not talking negligence a-la the August briefing, but actively was behind it. Thus, believing that the "government" was behind Katrina is not too leap a step. Of course, one has to wonder why would any government wants to destroy whole communities with a hurricane. Some kind of racial killing? Or to be like a fireman who supposedly sets a fire to quickly put it off and be hailed a a hero?

Nuts!

[mhatrw]

132. Some people think the poorest sections of New Orleans may

have been purposely flooded. There is a historical precedent for this belief, and there are many ear-witnesses who say they heard the levees exploding.

While the US military's weather modification program is certainly a worthy topic of discussion (just as the US military if you don't believe me), I have encountered less than a handful of people who believe that it's already progressed to the point where we can create and direct hurricanes.

[Suich]

3. I've been away from the computer all day...

didn't know the Ramsey story was a Rovian ploy!!! Good grief, what a stretch! I hope they have the right guy.

No flaming here, arwalden!



:hi:

[demosincebirth]

4. Those are the far lefties not the progressives

There are many, here.

[SmokingJacket]

25. Actually , they're the nutballs.

They come in all political persuasions and frequent every board on the net.

And they're in the minority.

Anyway -- I think it's better to err on the side of paranoia than on the side of swallowing every damn thing. I love the DU nutballs!

[demosincebirth]

26. "I love the DU nutballs!"

I don't, I only tolerate 'em

[BlooInBloo]

44. mmmm.... salty nutballs....

:rofl:

[Lilith Velkor]

152. Nutballz rool!11

:headbang:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. Not necessarily.

I've hear much kookiness, for instance, from Lieberman supporters.

[DoYouEverWonder]

69. Some of them are Bushbots

who infest the Internet planting bullshit on forums like DU.

[mhatrw]

133. You mean like Ned Lamont?

Or just his looney, angry left, blogofascist supporters?

[demosincebirth]

149. Its the ones that when you bring something up that they

don't like or diagree with, they become testy as hell. You know the kind.

[mhatrw]

151. You mean like when you say it's insane to consider that the timing

of a British announcement about foiling a terror plot, the US Code Red response to this plot and the 24/7 cable news hyping of this "imminent and deadly threat" could have had anything whatsoever to do with US politics?

You mean the people who become testy because they've had enough of being called insane for calling bs on the most deceitful and politically driven Republican administration in US history and its lackeys (in both Britain and corporate media) on a forum called Democratic Underground?

You mean the people who become testy because over 8 out of 10 times anybody thinks of calling bs on this administration, those suspicions are quickly shown to be well-founded?

[thepurpose]

6. I'm confused. Who has said every thing is a Rove plot?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

64. It's one of the things I can ALWAYS count on DU for...

Anytime there's news not related to something Bush or his administration has done wrong, there's inevitiably someone (I'm guessing not the same someone every time, that would be just weird) posting that it's a Rovian distraction. Sometimes I click on threads I wouldn't normally click on (headlines about shark attacks or something) just to get a laugh when I see the inevitable post.

But in spite of that, I can also ALWAYS count on DU for reasoned analysis, a variety of different insights, some great writing and much-needed bits of humor, usually at the expense of the morons running this country. (Today I got some good laughs out of the "Snakes on a Plain" pic and the great Photoshops of Bush's Harley photo-op. I also read some interesting posts about Iraq, because I seem to have to come to DU to find anything about that ongoing travesty anymore.)

I think I would miss the "it's a Rovian distraction" posts if they suddenly went away.

[unpossibles]

129. Rove paid you to say that, didn't he?1?!?

admit it!

;)

[mhatrw]

134. As it turns out, the US government pressured the British to time

the announcement of the terrorist plot at least a week earlier than the British police working on the investigation wanted.

Just how big of a leap of logic is it to conclude that the political PR wing of the Bush adminstration had something to do with exerting this pressure? Someone would have to be either ignorant or nuts to suggest otherwise.

[EstimatedProphet]

142. Yes, the Bush administration did just that

and those of us who rightly stated that the issue wasn't on the up-and-up were called names by people right here on DU, even though we were right and they were wrong. Yet, somehow they expect us to be embarrassed of our stance. I don't think that Rove put together the Ramsey story. The Bushies did make up the airline story though, they're still doing it, they will continue to do it, and people right here will still turn a blind eye to what they are doing.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

156. Well, I believe they did time that announcement, and that's the real shame

There are certainly legitimate instances of the Administration manipulating the news to distract us (every Bin Laden tape, and most of these "near miss" terror cases, for example); I was talking more about the instances where people jump on threads about missing girls or shark attacks or extreme weather events and other non-Bush-related stories and imply that it's a devious distraction ploy by Karl Rove -- when in fact it's just the media being lame and looking for ratings.

[Bjorn Against]

7. When did anyone claim and earthquake or a flood was manufactured by Rove

The Jon-Benet arrest however may be a Rove decoy, I am not saying it is but that it may be. It is a story that has gotten way more publicity than it deserves, and there are many more important issues that are getting virtually no attention.

While the tsunami itself was certainly not planned by Rove, the theory you mention that suggests it was caused by a nuclear explosion may have been Rove's method of trying to discredit us. There was not a single rational person who believed that to be the case. Yes they tried using that theory to discredit DU because of a single posters theory, a theory that was shot down by virtually every other member of DU. In fact many people here believe that that poster may have been a right-wing plant, we just don't know.

There is no one who accused Rove of starting an earthquake, you are making a strawman argument.

[Posteritatis]

38. You weren't reading during the boxing day tsunami

Plenty of people accused Rove of starting an earthquake, and a lot of them were around here.

There were a shitload of threads saying that exact thing. It got to the point where the admins had to impose a moratorium on conspiracy theory for awhile, something which is still around in some form, I think. Some of the choicer threads suggesting the US caused the tsunami for "uh, er, I dunno but they must have!" ended up getting cited in the New York Times towards the end of 2004 or the first few days of January 2005.

The NYT article was, itself, condemned as "a Rovian plot" in a thread where it came up.

[Bjorn Against]

43. I was a lurker on DU during that time period

I read but did not post. I seem to remember it differently, but I guess I probably did not read the boards as thoroughly as some other DU members did.

I seem to remember a single post being mentioned in the New York Times that was not at all representative of the general consensus on DU that this was an act of nature. The post the NYT focused on if I remember correctly was not very substantive at all, and virtually every one of the replies shot the theory down. A fact which the NYT ignored, leading many to believe this was their attempt to smear DU.

I remember reading Skinner's post on the topic and if I am not mistaken he said basically the same thing. I tried using the search function to find his original post, but did not have any luck. If anyone has the text of what he said I would love to see it posted.

I do know that most DUers then, as well as most DUers now know that Karl Rove has never had the power to cause an earthquake.

I agree that sometimes the idea that Rove is behind so much of the news cycle goes a bit too far, but I think claiming that some DUers believe he causes earthquakes makes us all look ridiculous. There are some people who don't use their heads, as well as some freepers trying to discredit us that will post ridiculous notions but I think there are few if any real DUers who ever believed the tsunami was caused by a nuke.

[hogwyld]

8. Karl, is that you?

Are you trying to deflect the news media from DU's investigative prowess by trying to make us all look like a bunch of loons? Please pass the Kool-Aid. Coming up with all these conspiracies makes a person mighty thirsty!

[jwirr]

9. The "red herring" started as far back as Grenada?. The Bush

family has a reputation for using them.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. KKKarl is all-powerful. Fear KKKarl.

I agree with you. I think the occasional overblown assumption that Rove is behind everything actually arises from the way the media decide to report stuff, and it's a fact that they are pretty much owned by the Bush Administration. It's not that Rove has engineered events so much as that some news outlets report, or don't report, certain things in certain ways. Rove is a swine with a fair amount of low animal cunning; he's a not a mastermind like Dr. Evil. I really think he is given way too much credit. Frankly, I don't think he and his gang of dipshits could conspire to arrange a picnic in the park any more.

[EstimatedProphet]

11. So, you mean that the terror plot last week was real?

Last time I heard people saying that something had to be real, since it was in the media and they wouldn't fabricate these things, was in reference to the British terror plot. There were lots of people saying what you're saying now - it has to be real because Britain wouldn't fake the story, there's no way they would make up a story because of Leiberman, etc. And as it turns out, we did lean on them to release the news before they were ready, for clearly political reasons, and thereby damaged their investigation.

I don't have an opinion either way about the Ramsey story. I don't know anything about it. But I do know this administration has a penchant for making up stuff to grab headlines whenever they find it convenient, and too many people fell for it again last week. If that's going on again, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

12. Allen, you need a standing ovation....

Because you're right on the money. It's so ridiculous that everything happens to distract us from Bush. It's insane. Good job, bud.
Duckie

[undeterred]

14. I think you mean a standing "rovation"

:evilgrin:

[woo me with science]

62. BWAH! nt

[KoKo]

82. Here's a good article from a coked up nutball......enjoy..

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060828/groundhog_day

[Bluebear]

15. You're just behind the news cycle.

Rove's part in this will all be revealed in time. :crazy:

[arwalden]

21. Oh, You!!

:rofl:

[sandnsea]

16. And then comes the denial

Before I clicked on your link I was looking at the "latest" page and thinking an awful lot of people needed medication. Then I read a breath of sanity, rightly pointing out the loon contingency at DU, and then like clockwork - out come the deniers. It's just incredible.

Thank you for ranting, somebody's got to do it.

[Philosoraptor]

17. stop making sense & keep your logical thoughts to yourself please

[stray cat]

18. Like the extreme right some can't be bothered with facts

[movonne]

19. Because 99% of the time they are phony...everything this administration

and Rove has done has been a deaster..the other 1%,that they have been pretty successful at is lying..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Because They're Childish, In Need Of Attention And Have Lost Their

critical thinking abilities.

Some of the incessant tin foil whining that goes on is just unbelievable. I hear ya.

(But thankfully, there are plenty of DU'ers here to set records straight and keep the integrity of this community intact.)

[mhatrw]

136. You said last week that you had no reason to doubt the Gatorade plot.

As of today, nobody has been charged with anything. As it turns out, most of the suspects were middle class and married. That is not the profile of a suicide bomber. In fact, being raised in a G8 country basically disqualifies you from this profile. Furthermore, the suspects had no plane tickets, no explosives, and many of them didn't even have passports. The details of the plot were reportedly spilled by a "co-conspirator" during a Pakistani intelligence torture session. And we all know that this sort of questioning always results in the highest quality information. Right?

More critically, British police wanted to keep the investigation going for at least another week, but were overruled by the British government who was under pressure from the Bush administration to break this story early.

Even Josh Marshall and Andrew Sullivan are having their doubts about the very same hyped up made-for-media festival of fear that you assured us was on the up and up.

But I suppose it's way past time to get over that, and move on to the next "crazy DUers are way too paranoid" pile on. Right?

[Cameron27]

22. I agree with you,

Rove's use of dirty tricks should never be doubted, but he isn't omnipotent.


Besides, I read somewhere he was indicted sometime in May..........:+

[billbuckhead]

27. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
<http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000935.php>

Maybe natural disasters aren't controlled by BUSHCO but I wouldn't put any act of terrorism past them.

[springhill]

54. Thanks. That's a little bit of reality too.

I guess I'm one of those kooky far-left nuts. By the way, what does far left mean? Is that McGovern far-left or something else?

[etherealtruth]

23. It gets a little much at times ...

The good news is that many of us agree with you.

I don't agree with the sensationalism in the 24 hour news cycle. I'm really unhappy with the continued refusal of much of the press to aggressively confront the Chimp and his evil cabal ... other than that I think that believing that Rove is some kind of evil deity is more than a little embarrassing

[MoseyWalker]

24. I get a little disturbed by the decoy/distraction responses sometimes

but many times, it is probably true.

There are other news stories out there, and they have to be covered also, but sometimes we all get so involved in the fascist politics that it is extremely difficult to think of anything else.

Sometimes, I welcome stories like the Jon Benet story, just to get a rest from the rest of it.

I only have so much adrenaline.

[orwell]

28. You would think...

...that Rove had something to do with the timing of the Iraq War, or Rathergate, or the phony Niger Documents, or outing Valerie Plame...

...or bugging his own office and blaming it on his client's opponent...

You would think...

[Fox Mulder]

29. What are you trying to distract us from?

:P

[Turn CO Blue]

30. I just posted similar sentiments - I'm sure I will be flamed. n/t

[fooj]

31. I think Olbermann clearly illustrated that the American public

is being PLAYED! Did you miss the video/timeline?
These are FACTUAL events. You are right. News Happens. One thing I HAVE learned through this nightmare, however, is that EVERYTHING ISN'T A COINCIDENCE. It's that simple.

[mhatrw]

137. Olberman's Must See Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ligvuLKCs

[AusTexDem]

32. there's just something about telling others

what they should or shouldn't discuss that seems wrong.

As long as a post ad hears to DU rules I say live and let live.
Maybe people are just venting or having some fun. Even if they really do believe those things so what. I doubt giving them a lecture is going to change their minds.

If you think it's silly or a wast of time then ignore the thread. And let the Mods make the call about what to do with it.

my humble opinion.


For the record I have never even heard the examples you site. And I don't think that your post is silly or a wast of time I just don't happen to agree.


Flame away if you must

[w4rma]

33. The arrests made in the recent plot were shown to be made early for

political reasons, by the GOP leadership. The British authorities were forced, by the GOP leadership, to arrest plane bombers much earlier than the British wanted to arrest them. The British *knew* they needed more evidence, but the GOP leadership wanted a big news splash to coincide with LIEberman's defeat. LIEberman, btw, is the ranking "Democrat" on the Homeland Security committee in the Senate and was the very first "Democrat" to hear about this plot.

So, in summary, they forced arrests early for political reasons.

[loves_dulcinea]

36. okay i read your mail.

now given that this administration has a history of disseminating talking points to talk radio monkeys for to froth the nuts of xian fundies (pant pant),
why would you fail to give them credit for being able to disrupt and distract from 'real' news? oh! don't forget the fake news blurbs that were nothing more than propaganda points. who knows what they're capable of? remember how long they've sat on stories that have made the rational people outraged when released as common knowlege? say, abu ghraib? nsa wire taps (never forget that the fisa could backdate a warrant)? cheney's love of gun sport? what about the things that we progressives have fought for over years now, like transcripts of cheney's energy commision? i wish i could have invested on that info! jeez, the list could go on for quite a while yet.....

[Beausoir]

39. Rove is a hack and he does not want a distraction right now. Terra works!

The last thing those cretins want is the focus to be taken off the TERRA TERRA TERRA!!!!

He's a one trick pony and that trick is TERRA!!!!

[butterfly77]

40. because they lie

[bridgit]

41. i think it's a confluence of things that are known now that could have...

been done better, or more timely; a 'now', wide eyed knowledge of the just how big the mess has become perhaps even as a result of not having done something that could have prevented this Bush Admin fiasco; knowledge that Rove, while perhaps not all that "powerful", he is that nefarious; and all the jumpy, twitchy, tweaky 'boogity boogity', 'look at my thumb gee you're dumb' shit republicans get away with sight unseen, with no pertinent questions being asked...ala Sen. Allen, being the more recent

but i agree, sometimes genuine shit really does happen

[DinahMoeHum]

42. Allen, thank you for your sanity here. . .

Sometimes the only thing one can do here is to go outside for a hike, go shopping, go bike riding, go swimming in a pool, whatever - turn the mind off for a while. It can get real crazy here sometimes.

:think:

[Miss Chybil]

45. Rove is an idiot. nt

[Telly Savalas]

46. Isn't the timing of this thread a little suspicious?

Obviously another Rovian distraction.

:hide:

[AZBlue]

47. THANK YOU!

Sanity and logic!! Much needed here!

[Snivi Yllom]

48. anti-kook rovian conspiracy kick

I admit I have not seen anyone say Rove was behind the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers to allow Israel to attack Lebanon.


.......


I have not seen it. That does not mean some DUer did not write that.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

50. Ooph!!

:rofl:

[professor_grove]

71. no argument huh?

I thought as much.

[arwalden]

75. Oh... You Were Being Serious??

:spray:

[professor_grove]

145. I was indeed

but I see now that it was a waste, Fox viewers live inside a box.

I am sure you believed that Fox affiliate when they announced Bush had won the presidency in 2000. No manipulation there, right?

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Snivi Yllom]

98. by your math 2+2 = 5

adding something extra that is not there

[yodermon]

51. DU is a Rovian plot to make Democrats look bad.

We're all just in a big "Skinner" box, see, that's the whole plan.
:hide:

[Malikshah]

52. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter. .. As long as you

look fabulous-- that's the key. ;)

Me...

Lookin good and feelin gorgeous (sorry Ru, it had to be said)

[meisje]

53. The far left are more likely to believe in conspiracies

[flyarm]

60. i guess you missed all the conspiracies while Clinton was pres

by the conservatives ..right??
HOW LONG DID WE HEAR ABOUT "SOMETHING" ABOUT HIS PENIS?????????

AND Vince Foster..and every woman worth her salt "doing" him?
and spending 70 million looking at Whitewater..and coming up with a bj lie..most expensive bj in history..a 70 million dollar bj..

fly

[CJCRANE]

61. Yes, $70 MILLION

to investigate the Clenis and only $15m for the 9/11 Commission (the initial figure was only $3m).

Not to mention Rove's billion dollar PR budget.

[tomp]

55. i don't know about earthquakes and tsunamis...

...but the news has been created and manipulated by the govt/media since long before rove was around. i don't think any reasonably informed person would disagree. i don't quite get your beef. at best i think it's exaggerated based on the earthquake/tsunami group.

examples: iraq run-up, gulf of tonkin, the maine, just for starters. i'm sure there are hundreds of more examples to be had.

questioning eveything the govt offers up as truth is the only reasonable position i can see.

[FredStembottom]

56. Skim and Skip. Skim and Skip.

Just pass right through the goofy crap. It soon becomes just a type of wacky background noise.

As you go through a thread, skim first, ignore 15-20 "me-too" replies, notice the truly wacky posts only enough to pass by them and then actually read the actually good stuff. Which includes well-written stuff you don't agree with, BTW!

[Egnever]

57. Surely you aren't implying this ramsey crap is a major news event?

I don't for a second believe that every bit of news is timed by Rove. I do however believe that the MSM will often seize on things of little or no import in order to distract us from what is going on in our capital.

With so much going on in the world this week is this "capture" really worthy of more than a 2 minute mention?

[onenote]

114. the media seizes on things that they think people are interested in

A large portion of the population likes scandal, likes mystery, likes stories such as the Jon-Benet story. It has been going on forever. Tabloids. Gossip sheets. They sell. And the news media are in the sales business. They don't need to distract the public, the public is distracted by nature. They are far more interested in slowing down in traffic to rubberneck at an accident than they are in getting to where they need to be on time. Its a part of human nature, at least for a sizable portion of the public.

If the news media thought the public at large was interested in the kinds of stories that get a lot of attention here at DU, they'd cover them. But the public at large isn't interested. On the other hand, stories like the Jon Benet story cut across all lines. The public at large is interested and, as is clear from the number and threads and posts on the subject, so are a lot of folks here.

[mhatrw]

139. Sorry, but news isn't entertainment.

Local true crime stories involving pretty white girls and the personal lives of celebrities are definitely popular forms of entertainment.

But that doesn't make them national news.

[treestar]

58. You're mistaking questioning or raising an issue for an assertion

of something.

There are millions of things happening in the world every day. We can only find out about some of them. The MSM is going to pick what they want us to hear, or what they think we want to hear.

Even here, we let them pull our chain. When the MSM decided that Mexican illegal immigrants were the big problem, all the threads were about immigration. Yet the basic dynamics of the situation had existed for over 50 years. Suddenly it's a "crisis." And voila, Israel makes its 8,345,459th attack on one of its neighbors, and nobody thinks about those Mexicans any more.

As for Rove, it is known that he does this kind of thing, so speculating where he might have done it is not crazy in the least.

Earthquakes and hurricanes, please, no one has suggested that they are publicized as a distraction, but they way they are publicized can be biased. And it is possible that there are plenty of environmental disasters we never hear about.

[LSK]

59. red herring much?

Can you point out some DUers saying Rove is behind the Jon-Benet Ramsey arrest?

:wtf:

[arwalden]

65. Drawing Negative Attention To Specific DUers...

... is referred to as "calling out", and that's against the rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

67. You are allowed

to link to the thread or a quote. That is not calling out.

[arwalden]

74. You Are Mistaken...

... I've had posts deleted (many times) for doing just that. I suppose it's all subjective on the part of the moderator, and depending on how many alerts it gets. Despite your encouragement, I'd rather not risk it.

[onenote]

117. OMG - just sample any one of the dozen or so posts on JBR

Hell, there was even a poll on the Rovian distraction question, and while the majority disagreed, nearly a quarter of those responding believed it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1926339&mesg_id=1926339

[mhatrw]

140. So far, 13 whole people voted yes.

And there's no telling how many did so to "prove" just this point.

[arwalden]

147. And There's No Telling How Many Conspiracy Theorists Voted TheOpposite Way

... just to try and "disprove" the point either. (Darn those unrealiable internet discussion forum polls!) :rofl:

[mhatrw]

150. It's a self-selecting poll with 13 votes you find amusing on a forum

with a membership that's now approaching 100,000.

Reliable or not, honest or not, it's meaningless. In fact, this whole "news" story is so meaningless that's it's only natural that a handful of political news junkies might blow off some steam by "blaming it" on their political enemy.

However, the fact that the Bush administration forced the British police to end their investigation of the Gatorade "terror plot" at least a week early is not at all meaningless. But for some reason, you don't seem to be interested. Would you care to explain your lack of interest in this development?

[arwalden]

153. You Assume Far Too Much About Me...

... :rofl:

[onenote]

158. to the extent you are addressing my post,

what basis, other than your own delusions, do you have for assuming anything about my interest in the Bush administration's involvement in the "terror plot". I was responding to a specific comment asking to point out any DUers who had suggested the JBR story was a "Rovian plot". I don't make it a habit of commenting on every issue in every post. Do you? If so, then we can assume you don't give a rat's ass about the court ruling on the domestic surveillance, the war in Iraq, or a hundred other topics. For the record, although I haven't posted on the subject (in fact I didn't post at all during the time the terror scare was on because I was travelling out of the country and didn't have my computer), I am very interested in the Bush administration's intervention in the British investigation.

Satisfied?

[Evoman]

63. Everybody! DON'T LISTEN TO ARWALDEN. HE IS A ROVIAN

plant on DU meant to distract us from our highly intellectual arguments about Ceres, George Allen and Kudzu.

;)

[arwalden]

115. Do Rovian Plants Require A Lot Of Sunlight And Water?

Do they grow well in hanging baskets?

[terrya]

66. I agree with you 10,000%

Karl Rove is not some omnipotent mastermind who can control the weather and all human events on the face of the Earth just to distract us from the Bush Adminstration scandal de jour. It's ridiculously absurd to believe and say that he can.

[DoYouEverWonder]

68. If you don't think the WH manufactures news

then you are uninformed.

It is well documented how the CIA has infiltrated every M$M newsroom.

Not every event is BushCo's doing, but there are many events, especially the bogus terrorist alerts, that are.

By lumping everyone in the same boat and painting with a broad brush is a common tactic to discredit the truth.

[NoPasaran]

78. "It is well documented how the CIA has infiltrated every M$M newsroom."

link?

[rinsd]

101. Operation Mockingbird is what he is likely citing. (nt)

[NoPasaran]

143. Which seems to have been wound up after its exposure in 1976

[DUyellow]

88. huh?

Link please...

[tom_paine]

70. Because Totalitarian Subjects are presented with so little real info

that we don't know what to believe.

One thing is nearly certain about all news in Totalitarian Nations like Amerika: The offical story is almost always incorrect. Lies of omission are now apallingly common in Amerika, though we have yet to adopt the Soviet/Nazi policy of completely fabricating stuff.

This has less to do with the rulers of Amerika than it does to the mid-level types who were born free and probably will never fully adapt to the Soviet-style wishes of their Imperial Masters.

Case in point: Remember the Phony Miami Terror apprehensions? Remember how reporters actually got the truth from the mid-level FBI types (now likely demoted or fired) in the press conference how they had no weapons, no real plans, nor anything and that what little intent they did have was wholly entrapped and lead by the FBI?

In Full Totalitarianism, those mid-level FBI types would be Freepers, trained to lie about all things. They would have certainly put on a show for the reporters and said what needed to be said (the attacks were minutes away, the men already had bombs, etc.), but that iddn;t happen.

Instead the truth leaked out quietly. Of course it wasn't covered on Cable TV Pravda, but it got out, which is a triumph.

But once all of us who remember freedom in America grow old or die off, it will be another story.

But you asked, arwalden, why people believe what they believe. My answer, in a nutshell, for the same reason ANY subjects of ANY Totalitarianism, Left or Right, don't know what to believe.

Because we are kept in the dark and fed bullshit. Because we have no Free Press left to validate or invalidate "conspiracy theories" (like the German Death Camps were in 1943...a conspiracy theory).

[lectrobyte]

72. Who's this straw man you are knocking down? I don't think the

news stories are manufactured, but it does seem like certain stories are given way too much time and focus. I blame it more on the corporations that own the media more than the white house.

[Atman]

73. You take 2 + 2 and come up with 7

Believing the news media jumps on any story it can in order to avoid reporting about Iraq or Bush's troubles is NOT the same as believing said events are manufactured by Rove. Rove is nothing if not a pathological opportunist, and he knows his job.

I am more concerned with the people who don't see any patterns, and whom are so willing to dismiss the tactics of these men by conflating the opportunism into being examples of omnipotence. Granted, there are a few extreme conspiracy-buffers here. But they are in the minority, as are the people who knee-jerk in the opposite direction and say that NOTHING is ever planned or capitalized on by the government. Example: the other day I posted a thread suggesting that potentially large amounts of fuel could be saved by the airlines as a result of the ban on all liquids (which generall are heavy for the space they take up). Nothing more than that, I just suggested that that might be part of the reason the airlines went along with the ban.

Of course, immediately there were the posters who replied that I was a lunatic for thinking the government set up the entire UK terrorist plot simply as a ploy to get liquids off of planes. There are idiots on both sides of the aisle.

[Atman]

76. Read this one, arwalden...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0815-36.htm

[sgxnk]

79. bravo

bravo bravo bravo

the same people that would require metric a**loads of evidence to dispute any of their pet prejudices think that karl rove is behind the glower of every schoolyard bully, and is a mad orchestrator of anything that could ever possibly be construed as a positive for the bush administration. they don't need EVIDENCE. they just need a combination of seething blind hatred and equal doses of kookdom

shaken and stirred

[KoKo]

80. Why are so many Progressives.....you say... Dissing Progressives

One might ask who you are to use a "blanket term" like Progressives to describe people you think post nonesense here. This is a big board ...there are Freepers here every day, there is bound to be a certain percentage of people who feel Tsunami's or Earthquakes are caused by different things than whatever the scientific fact is.

But, you use the misleading teaser...Why are so many Progressives...and your peeps back you up on the thread so you all sit and snark and snuff...

Enjoy yourself. Threads like yours are as regular as the very, very few who might be concerned about Rove and the Repugs collusion with our M$M.

Some Progressives might even have been against the Iraq Invasion. :D They ignored all the intelligence information that proved to be true about WMD/Chem/Bio... We know those weapons are there...or were there..they are now in either Iran or Syria...north of Tikrete west of.....

[arwalden]

84. Huh?

:shrug:

[MzNov]

154. thank you progressive thinker

[meganmonkey]

81. Just to irritate you

:)

[sendero]

85. I agree with you..

.. there is no question that the timing of events under their control is manipulated - for example the recent British airline scare is rapidly unravelling - quite possibly because Bush insisted on breaking the story when they should have let these guys run with it and stopped it at the last minute, having gathered the most intelligence.

Stuff like Ramsey - for goodness sakes WHO is suprised that this will get a lot of coverage? It is one of the most infamous unsolved cases ever and you're going to be hearing about it for a while. Was the John Mark guy some kind of Rovian bot? Bullshit.

The media doesn't need Rove to make them concentrate on the unimportant bullshit and ignore the important. Why? Because the unimportant bullshit is what attracts viewers.

The American people are the problem. This shit gets play because people watch it. It is as simple as that, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

[arwalden]

86. That's Worth Repeating... "The American people are the problem...."

<<The American people are the problem. This shit gets play because people watch it. It is as simple as that, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.>>

:thumbsup:

[rman]

87. News Happens - but some news gets overplayed,

and other news we don't hear shit about in the MSM, regardless of the significance of the news.

It should not be a surprise that there is considerable overlap between the interests of the corporate owned MSM and the corporate owned Government.

[DUyellow]

89. arwalden, Thanks for your post!

and thanks for all the replies of :rofl: :shrug: :spray: you really conveyed your argument to me.

[Blue-Jay]

91. !

:dunce:

[sofa king]

90. You might want to read this.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/8798997/the_man_who_sold_the_war/

"The fabrication might have ended there, the tale of another political refugee trying to scheme his way to a better life. But just because the story wasn't true didn't mean it couldn't be put to good use. Al-Haideri, in fact, was the product of a clandestine operation -- part espionage, part PR campaign -- that had been set up and funded by the CIA and the Pentagon for the express purpose of selling the world a war. And the man who had long been in charge of the marketing was a secretive and mysterious creature of the Washington establishment named John Rendon."

That article is by James Bamford, author of The Puzzle Palace, which is considered the definitive public treatise on the National Security Agency. He's no slouch and he wouldn't have written an entire feature article on bullshit news if it wasn't there.

[G_j]

92. interesting article

he doesn't sound like a nut case

[G_j]

94. got to keep an open mind

There are certainly at least two sides to the "conspiracy" issue.
On one hand you can behave like a fool by believing anything nefarious about advisories, on the other hand, by not allowing for the possibility of "conspiracy" in many, many instances we let people get away with some truly criminal stuff.

keep an open mind and always educate yourself

[LSK]

93. ok, I will admit...

Those 22% of DUers should get a grip.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1926339&mesg_id=1926339

[mhatrw]

141. Don't you mean 13 DUers?

Including how ever many pushed the wrong button to make just this point?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Because it's not a major news event?

:shrug:

[onenote]

119. says you.

The public seems to think otherwise.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. Fuck the public.

They spent months enthralled in the Michael Jackson trial.

The idea that the importance of a news story is correlated with the popularity of said news story is the same sort of goofy thinking that says movies with big box office reciepts are better.

[onenote]

159. Go live in a cave?

[The Stranger]

96. Total fucking strawman- people don't claim everything is a Rove conspiracy

What they complain about is a corporate media (which is supposed to report news events) that is complicit in transparent fear-mongering, war-mongering and hate-mongering to manufacture consent.

That everyone thinks earthquakes are started by Rove is a total fucking strawman. How about engaging the real issue?

[arwalden]

99. Oh... Stop Exaggerating. I Never Said "Everything"...

... nor did I say "everyone". (Talk about your strawmen :rofl:)

<<... and hate-mongering to manufacture consent.>>

:shrug:

<< How about engaging the real issue? >>

This is a real issue. :eyes:

[fooj]

102. Why do people openly MOCK others and think it's ok?

Just wonderin'

[arwalden]

104. I Don't Know If What You Say Is True... And...

... I'm not sure what it has to do with this thread, but perhaps you could start a thread of your own to find out the answer to your question.

:shrug:

:eyes:

[fooj]

111. No. This thread suits me just fine.

Plenty mockery to last a lifetime here.

[arwalden]

113. Whatever.

:eyes: :popcorn:

[flyarm]

121. hmm i have been wondering that myself lately ...

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

seems we can look at our own "critically"..about questioning the most evil people running our government in my 54 yr lifetime..without looking into those who vilify or have vilified ours for a very long time..or simply ignoring truth or real news stories etc..and giving them a free ride..

we all know how evil Rove is..is there anyone here that questions that??
i think he is the most evil man i have ever seen in or around my white house and government in my 54 year lifetime..

do i think he is responsible for everything..no ...and i have not seen people here saying that..so i just wonder about the motivations behind this suggestion

but i damn well think he has his hands in our media and the evilness that has surrounded this white house..

look the mother f%$#ker outed a cia noc agent..he is guilty of treason..i don't care what anyone else says about that..thats what i believe and will always
believe..

many of us have seen his talking points ..that go to all the media..

bullshit is bullshit..

and i hold that sob responsible for the propaganda to bring about the PNAC * admin policy of a NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE SWIFT BOATING OF ANYONE ..including many "REPUTABLE PEOPLE" ..WHO CALL THIS WHITE HOUSE ON THEIR LIES AND EVIL WAYS!

people who have risked their lives and careers to get the american people the truth..and rove is behind much of the risk of smears and fear for their lives..these people have taken!

ROVE "IS" THE ARCHITECT OF EVIL

AND IF ANYONE HASN'T FIGURED THAT OUT YET..WELL WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN??

FLY

[dogday]

126. Good Question

Thanks for asking... :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

97. I keep going back to the fact that this event in particular happened

and was publicized under the Clinton Administration. So, to push it as Rovian would make us hypocrites. It was a tragedy then, it's a tragedy now... and I've got no problem with the news coverage.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

105. Oh Brother!

:eyes:

[Richardo]

107. "Non sequitur"

"You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means."

[Rex]

112. Inconceivable!

Thanks for the laugh. This thread has been fun to watch.

[Pacifist Patriot]

106. You mean these people are serious? I figured it must be a...

standing joke like "morans" and "hugh." I've been known to blame Rove for the algae in my swimming pool, but goodness I hope people don't think I really mean it. *grin*

Honestly, I've written off most of this as joking around. People really mean it?

[arwalden]

109. Well... Judging By Some Of The Responses In This Thread

<< People really mean it? >>

... it would appear to be the case. Go figure! :shrug:

[flyarm]

122. and i thought rove was pond scum..but what do i know??

pool algae is a good analogy as well!!

actually i think he is like the gunk in the refrig when a cucumber rots and turns to brown liquid...and you have to pull the garbage can close so it doesn't drip all over the floor!

oh i have many analogies for that scum bag!

but i will spare you!!

fly



:spray: :shrug:

[rosesaylavee]

108. Rove is not omnipotent

... implying so must make his ego swell even larger than it already is.

He will fall sooner or later just as other egomanical tyrants have before him. I hope I get to watch it in slow-mo.

[Odin2005]

110. Some people are just mentally incapable of accepting coincidences.

Add that with the country being ruled by people who think we should be fed "usefull myths" and of course the conspiracy cranks are going to be off the walls with nuttiness.

[flyarm]

123. you mean like 4 aircraft hijacked and no norad responds?

for an hour, over the most protected airwayS ..the New York corridor ..in the world??

YOU MEAN NO NORAD RESPONDING WHEN MY CO-WORKER CALLED IN THE HIJACKING OF FLIGHT 11 34 MINUTES BEFORE IT SMASHED INTO THE WTC?? you mean a coincidence like that????

or two aircraft hijacked and flying toward the Capitol of this country and no Norad responded ..and then Norad and the FAA lied to the 9/11 commission..you mean that kind of coincidence ???

OR HOW ABOUT THE coincidence OF A PRESIDENT SITTING IN A ELEMENTARY SCHOOL for 24 minutes after our country was under attack..so was it a coincidence that the secret service just let him sit there and put his life and the lives of those children at risk??

or how about little lord pissy pants saying he sat there because he didn't want the children frightened..but then he did a press conference with the children all surrounding him, as he told the nation we were under attack..for a perfect photo opp...was that a coincidence??

or how about the coincidence that M. Atta and 2 other hijackers were on Jack Abramoff's casino boat one week before 9/11 in John's Pass/Treasure Island fla..


hmmm those darn coincidences..they just seem to spring up all over the place with this administration!

fly

[professor_grove]

157. the only nuts are those

not skeptical of corporate news. Not to mention weak-minded.

[baldguy]

116. Of course they don't manufacture events.

But they do manufacture & exaggerate the coverage of events.

[Odin2005]

125. BINGO!

They don't make the events, they TWIST the events, like when they turned a little bunch of extremists in Afganistan that go lucky on 9/11 into a nonexistant "global terrorist network."

[grace0418]

118. Well, in the case of the Big Bad Terror Plot it's starting to look like

the unthinking, gullible, paranoid idiots, as you say, are right. http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html

As far as the stories like Jon-Benet Ramsey (or Brangelina, or the blond girl who disappeared, etc.) are concerned, I don't think they're manufactured. But they certainly are sensationalized waaaaaay out of proportion by the media. I'm sorry the little girl was murdered, and I'm glad they think they found the killer. But LOTS of little girls are, sadly, murdered every day and it isn't the top news story for months and months on end. So in that sense, the people who control the media are controlling the news. I'll bet you any amount of money that people who have no idea what is going on in the rest of the world know all about Jon-Benet. Is that media control all a plot by Karl Rove? Perhaps not. But it *is* controlled, and it *is* used to further the agendas of those in control.

[warrens]

120. I would prefer the MSM kept its eye on Bush 24-7

We live in an encapsulated world where politics is Story One through One Hundred. We are a tiny minority in that way. The thing I never see the Rovian conspiracy types ask is, when some major event occurs and there is no real bad news for Bush to deflect, why was it allowed to happen?

Let's face it, JonBenet is legit news, and a big deal to a lot of people. The Brit terror thing is legit news, and at least plausible on its face.

The press would not be doing its job if it ignored stories like that. Period.

[Lars39]

127. Some links:

Bush 'planted fake news stories on American TV'
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 29 May 2006

Federal authorities are actively investigating dozens of American television stations for broadcasting items produced by the Bush administration and major corporations, and passing them off as normal news. Some of the fake news segments talked up success in the war in Iraq, or promoted the companies' products.

Investigators from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) are seeking information about stations across the country after a report produced by a campaign group detailed the extraordinary extent of the use of such items.

The report, by the non-profit group Centre for Media and Democracy, found that over a 10-month period at least 77 television stations were making use of the faux news broadcasts, known as Video News Releases (VNRs). Not one told viewers who had produced the items.

"We know we only had partial access to these VNRs and yet we found 77 stations using them," said Diana Farsetta, one of the group's researchers. "I would say it's pretty extraordinary. The picture we found was much worse than we expected going into the investigation in terms of just how widely these get played and how frequently these pre-packaged segments are put on the air."

more at:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article621...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pentagon Probes Military-Sponsored Sites (paying journalists..again)

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050204/D881UT001.htm...

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Pentagon's chief investigator is looking into the military's practice of paying journalists to write articles and commentary for a Web site aimed at influencing public opinion in the Balkans, officials said Friday.

At the request of Larry Di Rita, chief spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld,
the Pentagon's inspector general, Joseph Schmitz, is reviewing that case and also looking more broadly at Pentagon activities that might involve inappropriate payments to journalists.The Balkans Web site, called Southeast European Times, as well as a second aimed at audiences in north Africa, have no immediately obvious connection to the U.S. government but contain a linked disclaimer that says they are "sponsored by the U.S. European Command." That is the military organization based in Germany responsible for U.S. forces and military activities in Europe and parts of Africa.The second site, called Magharebia and aimed at the Maghreb region that encompasses Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia, is still in development and has not reached the stage of having paid correspondents, said Air Force Lt. Col. Derek Kaufman, a European Command spokesman.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1691973&C=americ...

Rumsfeld To Meet with Military Commentators on Iraq

Beating back calls for his resignation, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has summoned military commentators for special Pentagon briefings on Iraq and the war on terrorism, a spokesman said April 17. snip

On April 14, the Pentagon emailed the commentators a fact sheet intended to rebut charges by a group of retired generals that Rumsfeld has given short shrift to military advice, leading to strategic blunders in Iraq.

The fact sheet enumerated the number of times Rumsfeld has met with the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The commentators — many of them retired senior officers now working for U.S. television networks — also have been called to a meeting April 18 at the Pentagon with Rumsfeld to discuss Iraq and the broader war on terrorism, said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman. snip

”We have a regular program to keep ... people that work for many of your news organizations in here well informed, providing them factual information, statistics, to keep them in a position where they can add some value and context to the reporting that goes on out there,” he said.

A dozen to 15 commentators typically attend the sessions, he said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whatever happened to the Fairness Doctrine? A Primer, by Moonbeam_Starlight
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1037537

Outfoxed.mov (video/quicktime Object)


PR Meets Psy-Ops in War on Terror
WASHINGTON — On the evening of Oct. 14, a young Marine spokesman near Fallouja appeared on CNN and made a dramatic announcement. "Troops crossed the line of departure," 1st Lt. Lyle Gilbert declared, using a common military expression signaling the start of a major campaign. "It's going to be a long night." CNN, which had been alerted to expect a major news development, reported that the long-awaited offensive to retake the Iraqi city of Fallouja had begun.

~snip~Officials at the Pentagon and other U.S. national security agencies said the CNN incident was not an isolated feint — the type used throughout history by armies to deceive their enemies — but part of a broad effort underway within the Bush administration to use information to its advantage in the war on terrorism. The Pentagon in 2002 was forced to shutter its controversial Office of Strategic Influence (OSI), which was opened shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, after reports that the office intended to plant false news stories in the international media.

But officials say that much of OSI's mission — using information as a tool of war — has been assumed by other offices throughout the U.S. government. Although most of the work remains classified, officials say that some of the ongoing efforts include having U.S. military spokesmen play a greater role in psychological operations in Iraq (news - web sites), as well as planting information with sources used by Arabic TV channels such as Al Jazeera to help influence the portrayal of the United States.
http://zota.org/2004/12/01/la-times-pr-meets-psy-ops-in-war-on-terror/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1035368

[mhatrw]

130. Because ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ligvuLKCs

[mdmc]

135. His story

someone decides what is news..

[krkaufman]

138. What's the big deal? "Many" does not equal "All" ...

... and some of that speculation may be true. What's the harm in those who want to discuss the possibilities doing so?

[ikojo]

144. I don't think Rove is all that powerful...

The reason I doubt so many so called news events coming out of this administration is because they arise exactly at a time that Bush is looking for a political boost. This administration uses everything to its political advantage, so it is not beyond my realm of belief that they would fabricate stories to be used to their political advantage or fit their political points of view. I don't think Rove plants the stories, but with such a compliant corporate press, there really is no need for a propaganda office in the White House.

[The Straight Story]

146. I read your OP, it distracted me. What is going on in the world?

I cannot handle more than an issue at a time! Damn, did rove send you here to mess with me?

Now I need to go read GD some more and get back up to date with mel gibson, Jon Benet, obama using an suv, and dlc stuff. Not to mention all the other things which are pertinent to life (christians, crackers, country stars killing bears, etc and so on ).

Ahhhhh....all better now.....

[arwalden]

148. Everything You Need To Know About The World...

... can be found in the DU Lounge. Simplify your life. Visit the lounge.

:hi:

[nolabels]

155. I didn't ever believe it was all coming from some cabal in the WH

One also must remember the right wing's opponents where often chose by the same people who chose the wing nuts to be sure.

So to think there is anything other than an game being played by the establishment would be foolish.

Remember the establishment choses what the news is and that could be (or not) far removed what is important at any particular point in time. To overcome anything you must first understand what you want to overcome.