Separation of church and state; tell me what you think of this:

[hedgehog]

The University @ Buffalo is canceling all classes September19 so that students may attend a series of seminars and lectures discussing Tibetan Buddhism. The climax is a lecture by the Dalia Lama. (http://www.buffalo.edu/dalai_lama/day_of_learning.html)

At what point does the University cross the line between education and proselytizing? This is a public university, so there may be issues of separation of church and state here.

I do note that the University is shut down for the various religious holidays, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur for Jewish students, Christmas for the Christians and Spring Break for the hedonists. Seriously though, what do you think of the Day of Learning?

[MrCoffee]

1. 10:00 am...the Dalai Lama Experience?

Is he gonna set a guitar on fire?

If all the students have the chance to go, more power to them. I tried like hell to get tickets to the Lama when he was at Rice University last summer, and got no love.

"So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice."

Edited for Caddyshack, because I can.

[beyurslf]

2. Is it required that they attend? No one is forced to celebrate the holiday

when they close. I don't see college students complaining about a free day off.

I suppose state money is used to pay for it though, which could be a problem. But, I bet they have a class on world religion and probably one each for the old and new testament. They could even have clsses on other religions. They are all voluntary so I don't see a problem.

[hedgehog]

7. I would be disappointed if they didn't have classes on world religion.

I think what sends up a red flag for me is that all other official activities are stopped to focus on one religion. It's a little different from closing to allow students to travel home for the holidays. The way this is presented it's almost as if an imprimatur is being placed on the Dalai Lama. What would you say if it was a day devoted to a visit from the Pope with associated discussions of the Mass and Church art?

[beyurslf]

9. If they weren't required to attend, I think I would be okay with it.

People like the Pope and the Dali Lama have a huge following of people outside of their respective religious faiths as well. (Well, maybe not so much the Pope, but there are a lot of Catholics I guess.) I'd go see the Dali Lama and I am an atheist.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Is it educational? Or is it preaching? Do they want to inform you or convert you? So many christian groups want to convert you and therein lies the problem with them.

[hedgehog]

11. When I was there back in the Stone Age,

various groups ranging from the Campus Crusade for Christ to the Socialist Labor Party all had tables in the Student Union to attract new followers. This is a little more proactive on the part of the Univdersity, though.

[Iwasthere]

3. Go Dalia Lama

MORE PEACE... LESS WAR ! There is nothing harmful about Buddism...

[Warren DeMontague]

Do the students have to go?

If not, hey- it sounds to me like it's not a problem. For instance, you could instead use the day to watch Pat Robertson on TV, if you were so inclined (and more than a little masochistic, IMHO)

[cynatnite]

4. It sounds strictly voluntary...

But as I understand it, buddhism isn't a religion.

I don't have a problem with this. It'll be a day off for the students so they're probably thrilled.

[angstlessk]

5. Well, if you give hedonists an entire week one day for the Lama

should go unnoticed. Besides a professors convention could cause classes to be canceled could it not? I see your point though, to call off learning for a Day of Learning..seems to be ridiculous!

[Donnachaidh]

6. oh fer Christ's sake!

How often does the Dali Lama do these things?

Is it MANDATORY?

This is something many of those kids will never have the opportunity to do again -- see the MAN. And when I see all the *teacher work days* my kid has to take off, this just seems really whiny. I'd LOVE to have my kid have an opportunity to see something like that.

[hedgehog]

10. As near as I can figure out, the University worked with a volunteer

group to bring the Dalai Lama to the school. In other words, the University created the opportunity. Reframe it as the University inviting the Pope with similar seminars discussing forms of Catholic prayer and Catholic efforts to ensure world peace. It wouldn't be mandatory, but would you be comfortable to see the university work as closely with a Western religious group?

I'm not for it or against it, but I do think it's worthy of discussion. The fact that this day focuses on a single religion/philosophy bothers me. A Day of Learning devoted to what all sorts of religious and philosophies (including atheism) can teach us about righteous living would be more appropriate, IMO.

[Sapere aude]

8. If Jesus was able to give a lecture I think it would be ok to let students

go. If Krishna could give a lecture I think it would be ok to let the students go. If Mohammad came I guess it would be ok to let the students go.

[TahitiNut]

12. I'd personally be eager as hell to attend a lecture by the Dalai Lama ...

... but I don't think anyone should be required to attend if it's not part of their selected curriculum. I think any world religious leader should be welcome to give a lecture with voluntary attendance at any public college or university. It's an essential part of any educational experience to have a vast array of ideas and perspectives available.

[hedgehog]

14. Agreed

It's the focus of the entire community on one view point that I find myself objecting to. If this was a part of a series of different speakers or if it didn't interfere with the academic calendar I might not object. (Why not have it on Martin Luther King Day?)

I have to go cook supper. I don't mean to be running away, but people got to eat!

[TahitiNut]

17. Well, a couple of considerations...

(1) the schedule of someone like the Dalai Lama probably isn't that flexible that he'd be able to come at the convenience of the school's calendar. Indeed, I seriously doubt that any school, let alone several schools, would be able to arrange for a variety of such people all on the same day. Different days? Maybe. Count the number of colleges and universities - I'd say it's a coup for SUNY-Buffalo to even get the Dalai Lama.

(2) We're talking about the leader of a whole major world religion here. While maybe not the scale of the Pope, it's a BIG deal. Bigger than if it were Archbishop Tutu and sure bigger than Jerry Falwell or Benny Hinn. As such, it'd be important to free up the schedules of staff and faculty (imagine the professor that made a quiz attendance mandatory?) to make it equally possible for folks to attend. It'd also be difficult enough to manage the logistics without worrying about some interference with other activities - like intramural sports. Trying to have 'business as usual' would probably be unreasonable.

(3) Whether or not sufficient other world religious leaders would be able to come and give a lecture shouldn't prohibit the school from providing the venue for the Dalai Lama. I think anyone who wants to arrange for the Pope, or Archbishop Tutu, ... or even Benny Hinn... should feel free to do so. The more the merrier!! Would people refuse George Bush if Bill Clinton were unavailable? Vice versa? I've never heard of anyone refusing the Pope when a Jewish and Muslim figure wasn't also available. Heck - I think the university has done good.

Personally, I think SUNY-Buffalo has done terrific! This is, no doubt, at least partly due to the efforts of Surya Das (a superb person, imho) who has ties to the school. Looking over the day's schedule, I feel like driving from Detroit just to attend, if I could. What an absolutely terrific schedule of events! I think even atheists (and Catholics) could enjoy a day like that and learn a lot.

While I'd not call myself a "Buddhist," there's not a day that's gone by in my life in the last 15-20 years where what I've learned from various (undisciplined) studies of Buddhist teachings hasn't been valuable to me - far more so than Lutheran catechism and Sunday School, for sure.

I guess the main thing I like about Buddhism is that it's so difficult to be a "heretic." :evilgrin:

So ... my reaction is: WOW! Lucky SUNY-Buffalo!!



Note: Buddhism IS a religion, even if not monotheistic (Buddha is NOT regarded as "god") or dogmatic. While it surely incorporates such well-developed psychological and philosophical aspects that it applies more thoroughly to daily life, I think that's its strength as a religion, personally.

[mcscajun]

13. Looks like it's beyond just learning about Tibetan Buddhism

And it looks strictly voluntary. And as Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion, no big deal, AFAIK.

"...learning opportunities about global issues that are of particular interest to students and community members and of abiding concern to the Dalai Lama."

[stop the bleeding]

15. I know it is volunteer, but something like this should be mandatory

:7

[JerseygirlCT]

16. Looks like a good learning experience to me. So long as it's not mandatory

[Warpy]

18. Buddhists aren't big on proselytizing,

even if a university might look like it to some. It sounds like the day is being used to encourage students to explore alternative ways of thinking, but not to force them to do it. I'm sure the majority, especially the believers, will simply use the day to catch up on sleep and/or course work.

I can see them doing this sort of things for other minority religions or philosophies, including Islam, to promote education, understanding and tolerance.

The Dalai Lama is not going to demand people to come down to an altar to accept Buddha into their hearts. It just doesn't work that way.

[Igel]

19. If the university arranged to have Falwell come in for a day

and cancelled classes I think the attitude here would be different.

Not because the situation is different, but because the attitudes are different.

Having the university arrange for him to come isn't a problem--at least not a large one. They're unlikely to help arrange it for people they disagree with.

Cancelling classes ... I don't agree. I've seen classes cancelled by faculty for all kinds of things that I thought were a violation of the contract between students and teachers. Demonstrations, 'teach ins' whatever. Personally, when I was teaching and one such day was called, I held class and covered stuff not in the textbook, but which certainly showed up on the next exam: I announced this the preceding week, so they could choose to attend class or not.

Having the university itself cancel class ... I've seen classes cancelled for precious few reasons. Usually the threat of extreme violence, or truly extreme weather. Or earthquakes. In this case, it counts as an endorsement.

And the distinction between Buddhism and Christianity as religions that some want to draw is fairly pointless. One can make the distinction, but if we suddenly had Buddhist prayers and observances required in high school, I assure you, SCOTUS would shoe-horn Buddhism into 'religion'.

[TahitiNut]

20. Falwell is merely a wart on the ass of Christianity.

The Dalai Lama is a major religious figure akin to the Pope ... not a footnote deserving of derision.

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. Sadly, our bum is covered with warts. Have any Comnpound W handy???

[Igel]

27. Be that as it may,

I'm not sure there's much a difference before the law.

Give preference to one religious figure over the other, you're suddenly demonstrating bias. And if it's a part of government that's biased towards a certain religion, that's a no-no.

(I personally consider them both to be innocuous fools and wouldn't waste my time with either. And I'd be upset if some administrator decided that my tuition and education were secondary to either of them.)

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. I think that it sounds very interesting. As long as no one is forced

it's cool by me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Are They Forcing The Students To Go? If Not, Then The Notion That It Is

somehow crossing the line between the seperation of church and state is an absurd one.

[hedgehog]

24. I guess there are several fuzzy areas.

I'm not sure why all classes were canceled. The actual lecture is at 3 PM and there aren't enough tickets for all the students. Maybe the other seminars are a combination of consolation prize and extra learning opportunity. There are courses where every class is packed solid with information and it will be a hardship to make-up the work. Thermodynamics maybe?

Calling the event "A Day of Learning" may be what really bothers me. What's supposed to be going on the rest of the semester? The implication is that what is to be learned on this one day supersedes anything else going on on the campus.


Look at it this way - what if your local school district canceled classes for the day and invited all the students to come in and hear Billy Graham in the afternoon. Local ministers would be available before and after to discuss what Rev. Graham has to say. No one would be required to attend and no one would be taking attendance. Still, the the school board has decided that it is more important for everyone to have the opportunity to hear Billy Graham than to have a day of regular classes.

[LWolf]

25. I'd need more information.

The most obvious is that attendance cannot be compulsory. I'm sorry they didn't find a way to do this on a Saturday, for example, so that regular classes weren't interrupted. Of course, I guess you can't tell your famous guest what day he has to show up!

Did they add a day to the term to make up for it?

I would also note that Buddhists don't prosyltize. Bhuddhism is not at all like Judeo/christian faiths. I highly doubt you'll hear any of the classes telling anyone who attends that their faith of choice is wrong, that they need to rush to their local temple and convert, etc.. Not even the not-so-subtle "invitations" issued by some christian ministers I've heard at interfaith services.

Are the committee members who planned and organized the event employed by the University, or are they an outside group using the University's facilities? It looks like there are some of both.

I notice, too, that there will be an interfaith service with the Dalai Lama and local religious leaders.

The stated topic, "peace through education" might be the crucial point. Is that a religious topic, a civic topic, or? It probably can't be divided that easily. Is it a Buddhist gathering, or a gathering of citizens of multiple faiths to discuss peace?

Is peace a religious topic? I think it's definitely a spiritual topic, but I don't see too many organized religions advocating peace these days.

More questions than answers here, but I've shared my thoughts.

[SPKrazy]

26. It's A Voluntary Thing

I'd rather they learned about other cultures and religions like this than from fundie preachers telling them about them!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. I'm not happy about cancelling the classes.

I think that organising something like this is great, but that cancelling classes to make way for it is probably going too far. The classes should run, even if they only have skeleton attendance, I think.