Help me with this 20 year old who joined Marines & has second thoughts

[ohio_liberal]

I want to say first that I am not anti-military but I have very deep concerns about young people who join the service during a conflict such as that in Iraq without all the facts.

I met a wonderful man, 20 years old, who joined the Marines recently on a delayed entry program. This kid was his high school's football star, got a free ride to a fairly prestigious college. He crashed a car the summer that he graduated, broke his back and his football scholarship was no longer an option. It took too long for his body to heal completely.

This young man comes from a upper middle class family that is, from what he's told me, everything you've ever heard about dysfunctional. It's one-sided, I know, but very real to him at least. Anyway, when his football scholarship was revoked (if that is the correct word) his parents informed him that they would not help with college even though they had previously helped the older siblings. I don't know why, but I get the impression from him that they are somehow disappointed in him. Disgusted even. They won't help him complete the necessary paperwork or provide documents to obtain student loans, grants, etc. He worked at a low-paying job until his parents booted him out of the house for reasons unknown to me. It didn't seem like a good idea to ask specific questions about the whys and hows it happened at the time.

So the military seemed like his only option. He has no home at present (staying with friends here and there), no job, his car just broke down, he's ready to default on the auto loan, and he feels hopeless. He joined the Marines to have a life, a way to pay for college, a way to better himself. Normally that would seem like a pretty decent alternative to being homeless. Normally. But you and I both know today's military is bent if not downright broken. And this is not a man who wants to be a soldier. He wants to be a physical therapist, and has wanted that as long as he can remember.

I sat with this kid (I know he's an adult, but damn he seems like just a kid) for hours, just talking about his problems and his imminent active duty. We talked about the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, what will happen to him if he goes there after basic training. We talked about the lack of adequate body armor, the huge numbers of injured soldiers, the dead soldiers, those who come back damaged physically and emotionally and are abandoned by the government. We talked about the possibility of a conflict in Iran. When we were almost finished, I asked him if he had second thoughts. He told me that he had always had second thoughts but he didn't know what else to do. I promised to help him find alternatives, if there are any.

So what I'm asking of my friends here at DU is help in finding those alternatives. It's been 20 years since I had to fill out paperwork for student loans and college enrollment. In fact, I believe my Mom did all that for me and I just signed the papers (:blush:) so I don't even know what is required. How can I help him get in to a college on his own without the help or involvement of his parents? If he does decide to forgo the military route, how can I help him get out of the deferred enrollment? I know it's possible, I just don't know how to go about it.

ohio_liberal,
The unsaintly patron of lost causes ;)

[Lars39]

1. Here's a few sites:

http://www.rcnv.org/rcnv/co.htm

http://girights.objector.org/

http://www.objector.org/

http://www.resisters.ca/

[ohio_liberal]

2. Thank you!

:hi:

[Lars39]

3. You're welcome! And best wishes for him.

I hope he is successful.

[FloridaPat]

4. How did he even pass the physical? My heavens, a broken

back. Best of luck to both of you.

[ohio_liberal]

5. From what I understand it gives him no problems right now

It took a long time to heal though. Apparently he's in good enough physical condition for the Marines. :shrug:

[FreedomAngel82]

18. From what I've read

they're lowering their acceptances so he probably could get in now days. Has he tried a scholarship with a local community college? And maybe get a job to help find a place to live? I'm glad he at least has his friends. :( Poor guy. Sounds like he's having an unfair time. :( I wish his parents would help him. I'm sending positive light.

[ohio_liberal]

20. Not tried a community college yet, but I did get info via PM about them

I think he assumed since couldn't go to the big schools without his parents' involvement that smaller colleges would be the same. I'm going to pass on info this afternoon that this might not be the case and he could give it a go at one of the smaller community colleges. We do have some very good ones locally.

I don't understand the situation with the parents. I suggested that maybe their financial situation might have changed since his siblings went to college but he assured me that is not the case. Kinda sucks. I can't imagine cutting my kid off like that. :shrug:

[pop goes the weasel]

6. don't know about the military

Maybe he can tell them that he wasn't forthcoming about his back problems. I think he should contact a peace group on that issue.


As for getting into school without the parents, that's easy. The paperwork is annoying, but tens of thousands of people complete it all the time without any help from parents. If he has questions about it, he can get help at the schools he is applying to.

As for financial aid, he'll qualify for next year or the year after, depending on when his parents cut him off. He is not their dependent now, and if he received the majority of his support from them for the past year, then he is not their dependent from last year either. He should file his own taxes, claiming himself. If this is not yet the case, he'll do this next year and be eligible for aid year after. If he is independent, it will be easier for him to get financial aid. Remember, though, that Our Idiot Congress found money to give themselves raises but drastically cut student aid. So he needs to make plans to do it all without any help. He could go to community college for the first couple of years, getting his lower level courses out of the way at a discount. He should perhaps get a certificate in some sort of trade. That will make working his way through college easier.

Any college will be happy to talk to him right now, even before he is admitted. Admissions officers have counselors who can help him make realistic plans and point him toward financial assistance specific to their institution. He should go to each admissions office of whatever local colleges there are in your community. That way, he can compare services and get a wide range of advice.

[sandnsea]

7. fafsa.ed.gov

That's the college loan site, you can apply online and it's pretty easy. Do it early to qualify for work study money. I don't know how you get around the parental requirements, but there has to be a way. Then he has to try to figure out what to do with a college education, and that isn't always easy for young men either.

[northzax]

26. as Pop mentioned

as 20 year old who is not being claimed as a dependant wouldn't have a problem with parental assistance. If he got into a good school already, then there is money avaliable (although he may come out deep in the hole, but many people do that) I, for instance, have complete financing for graduate school, striaght up loans, sure, but no one loans money at cheaper rates than Uncle Sam. And the interest is tax deductable.

[sandnsea]

29. From personal experience

when I just filled out fafsa 4 times in the last few years for my kids, I didn't see any way for them to file except as my dependent. Otherwise you'd have kids with millionaire parents going off on their own for 6 months and getting a Pell Grant. So I don't think it's quite that easy to do, but there is likely some way to do it.

[northzax]

30. someone should check on it...

but if you are not a declared dependant, that means your parents did not claim you on their tax return, you didn't live with them or recieve the majority of your support from them in the previous calendar year, you can avoid mentioning them as assets. or maybe it's two years. And you might not get grants, but loans are a different story. Heck, having wealthy parents makes it easier to borrow money, since there is a chance they'll halp you pay them off.

[sandnsea]

32. Low-income loans

are based on being low income. Having a wealthy parent excludes you from the loan. In order to make sure they go to low income kids, they have rules in place and I think you are automatically placed as a dependent unless you have a child, are married, or are of a certain age that makes it clear you no longer depend on a parent for support. General loans for a college student are based on credit ratings, which it doesn't sound like the OP kid would have; and which his parents are irrelevant to because they have refused to help him. So he's in a pickle unless they can figure out some other way around the dependency requirements, which must be there but I don't know what they are. Maybe someone can call their senate office.

[JVS]

8. How does breaking your back disqualify playing football but allow...

being a marine?

From what I've heard, you can quit the military without penalty as long as you have not yet completed basic training. After that they own you. Maybe he could apply for an honorable medical discharge by claiming problems with the broken back thing.

[ohio_liberal]

17. I read some of the websites listed above

Apparently being in the delayed entry program is much the same as inactive reserves, with the exception as you mentioned that one can separate at any time before basic training. So if he wants out, he only needs to send a letter of separation to his recruiter.

[JVS]

22. That's great news!

[Obamanaut]

9. I know two young men who were not initially forthcoming with their

health issues. Both were sent home. One on his first day of basic training when he told them he had only one kidney (it wasn't removed, he was born that way), and the other a knee injury from high school football several years previously.

I don't know where to start on getting this back injury info in his record, certainly not with the ones who recruited him.

An earlier suggestion to start education with community college is a good one. Less expensive, gets back into a studying/learning mindset before the hurly-burly of a major college or university.

Good luck with your efforts.

[tabatha]

10. Peace Corps

Mike Malloy once recommended the Peace Corps to someone in a similar situation.

[Flying Dream Blues]

11. I think the Peace Corps only takes college grads. Vista is open to HS

grads, I believe.

[Rob H.]

12. My boss' son joined the Navy on a delayed entry program

IIRC, he did have time to back out had he changed his mind. I found some more information here. This might be helpful to him:

Department of Defense (DOD) Directive 1332.14, Enlisted Administrative Separations, and individual service recruiting regulations allow anyone in the DEP to request a separation from the Delayed Enlistment Program. Most DEP discharge requests are approved. Even in those few cases where a stubborn recruiting commander disapproves the request, if the applicant refuses to ship out to basic training, absolutely nothing happens to them. Today's military is an "All Volunteer Force." The services do not need, nor do they want individuals who are not volunteers.

Unfortunately, recruiters work on quotas. Even though most DEP discharge requests are approved, if someone gets discharged from the DEP, the recruiter has wasted all the hard work and paperwork to enlist the applicant, and is going to have to work hard to find a replacement. Understandably, a recruiter is not going to be happy with an applicant who changes his/her mind about joining. The recruiter's boss is also not going to be happy. Because of this, some frustrated recruiters (and even some recruiting station commanders) have been known to use unethical tactics to keep an applicant from dropping out of the DEP.

Consequences for a DEP Discharge

Let's get it all out into the open: If a recruiter (or anyone else) tells you that you can't get out of the DEP, they are lying to you. If they tell you it will be a "dishonorable discharge," they are lying to you. If they tell you that you will go to jail, they are lying to you. If they tell you that you will be fined, they are lying to you. If they tell you that it will keep you from getting student loans, or jobs, or anything else, they are lying to you. If they tell you that MPs will come and drag you away to basic training, they are lying to you. Don't laugh, but one recruit was even told that the DEP discharge would go on his "social security record," and remain there for 53 years. Obviously, that, too, was a lie (remember when teachers used to tell you that your behavior/grades would go on your "permanent record," and follow you for life?).

<snippage>

A DEP discharge has one, and only one negative effect: If you are discharged from the DEP, and later want to enlist in that SAME service, you will require a waiver. While waivers are usually granted, you may lose certain benefits, such as the ability to chose what job you want, or what date you will ship out to basic training. For example, one Air Force Recruiter told me that his commander would only approve a waiver for someone with a voluntary DEP discharge, if the recruit agreed to ship out to basic training within 30 days (which, in turn, limited what job choices the recruit would have). On the other hand, an Army Recruiter told me that she made it a routine habit to contact DEP discharges six months or so down the line to see if they had changed their minds and now wanted to join. Apparently, her particular commander approved these type of waivers routinely.

Hope this helps. :)

[ohio_liberal]

16. Yes, that does help, thank you!

:hi:

[Javaman]

13. here is the best advice I have ever heard on how to get out...

of the military.

The military looks at recruits as investments, the more money they put in, the more aggressive they are in pursuing legal matters to getting a return on their investment.

With that said:

If he hasn't begun boot camp yet. Have him go AWOL. But remember, the duration for AWOL is different for each branch of the service. (don't ask me which is which, I don't know, I'm sure you can find out on google)

Anyway, so for example: if the Marines declare any service person AWOL after 30 days, then have this guy go AWOL but then show back up again on day 28 or 29, before he is officially declared as such. Have him tell them that he made a horrible mistake and if they take him in again, he will just go AWOL again. This is not a total guarantee but from the various things I have read, this is actually a very good tactic.

The reasoning behind it, as mentioned above, the military, with new recruits, haven't invested a dime yet and aren't going to loose a dime. If however, this guy was a marine fighter pilot, it would be a vastly different story.

It's not easy, but it can be done.

[Booster]

14. This is so sad that young people think their only option is to

enlist. I have a friend who's daughter just enlisted in the Army because of the $15,000 they will give her, plus education, etc. I talked to the kid til I was blue in the face with questions like "why would you want to go to a foreign country and kill people who have absolutely nothing to us". This was all 6 months ago. I just say her mother recently and she said she and the daughter had just watched "F-9/11" and were both pissed at Bush because that film showed them that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It took all I had in me to not say "where the f__k have you people been?" Frustrating.

[ohio_liberal]

15. Isn't it sad?

I'm certain that joining the military as a way to get out, to get more, is nothing new. I find it rather sad as well, especially considering some of the things the recruiters promise are not true or might change dramatically were they injured seriously in combat and had to be discharged before their required service was complete.

It's hard to make a young person understand that, in the grand scheme of life, a $15,000.00 signing bonus is peanuts. It sure as hell can't make up for a lost limb or severe psychological trauma.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Hold on to his medical records. Or, give him a map to Canada.

Although, the Marine Crotch has a knack for overlooking medical problems with fresh fodder, his broken back might get some doc to give him a pass.

[ohio_liberal]

21. Canada is looking better and better every day

After the troubles I had with my own son this week re: an invalid warrant and a humiliating arrest, I'm seriously considering moving outside this country. Or at least away from Jesusland. :(

[northzax]

27. and if all else fails

and he'll take a dishonorable discharge, there's always the Monica Option.

[ohio_liberal]

28. I've heard all it takes is a 12 pack and a couple joints

...for any man to get to the Monica Option ;)

[Horse with no Name]

23. Has he been to boot camp yet?

I mean, if he hasn't, that would be a great time to DOR.

[ohio_liberal]

24. No, not yet

He's supposed to leave in April.

[Horse with no Name]

25. In boot camp

He can quit. He can underperform.
You aren't legally a Marine until you finish boot camp.
If you don't finish, then they have to let you go.
However, keep in mind, they will do all they can to keep them.
But legally he can quit and go home.
My brother is a Sgt. in the Marines and is a drill instructor.
He told me that there is a time frame AFTER boot camp that you can quit--perhaps it is between boot camp and Survival training, however, I don't remember what the timeline is.

[Nikki Stone 1]

31. How long has he been "kicked out"?

He could be an emancipated adult as long as his parents aren't claiming him as a dependent on their taxes, and as long as he has been on his own a certain amount of time. (I think it's two years, but I have to check.) As an emancipated adult with low income, he would be eligible for funding like PELL grants.