Expert on Lehrer says Bin Laden speech was first written in English --->>>

[Stephanie]

Rather surprising. Is the suggested reason really the reason?

JIM LEHRER: So the danger here then -- if I hear you both correctly -- is that he could inspire a group that doesn't answer to him, but reacts to inspirational words from him, is that what you are suggesting?

PAUL PILLAR: Right.

MAMOUN FANDY: Right, but this particular tape is not terribly inspiring, just looking at the language of it. This is the first tape of bin Laden that has no single verse from the Koran. It does not have the flowery language of Arabic.

It seems to me that it is written in English first, and then translated into Arabic. It is very western style of tape. It is not very characteristic of bin Laden, at least it tells me that the non-Arabic speaking within the al-Qaida network are taking over the organization --

JIM LEHRER: You mean he didn't write this is what you are suggesting?

MAMOUN FANDY: The Arabic speakers in al-Qaida, the parts that are coming from the Arab world, are losing to the non-Arabic speaker, so it's really becoming more of a South Asian organization, rather than an Arab organization.


Mamoun Fandy, Rice University

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june06/osama_1-19.html

[jeff30997]

1. Written by the CIA maybe?

[waiting for hope]

2. Naw...

Rove needs something to do and so they gave the job to him....}(

[salvorhardin]

6. No, I suspect he means Pakistani influenced

[Stephanie]

8. that may be what he means, but is he correct?

is that the only explanation?

[EFerrari]

21. Let's review: It's not allusive, not idiomatic on the contrary,

seems to use American phrases, and seems to echo democratic talking points. And it unfortunately distracts from the scandals erupting all around the culture of corruption that has enveloped the Hill.

I can't even believe what I believe.

[txindy]

24. Well, push on over

'Cause I can't believe what I'm believing right now, either. From English to Arabic. Gee, what a coiiiiiiiincidence. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

25. And have you heard ONE of the UBL "experts" on ANY

of the cable channels say boo?

What the heck kind of experts are they, if they don't bother to disagree with each other?

lol

[patcox2]

51. I thought it odd that it actually mentions public opinion polls

Thats just strange, something I would think a person from a culture so different from ours would not mention. On the other hand, the premise of the mentioning of the polls, that because the majority of americans oppose the war, the US would conceivably accept this truce offer, also evidences a total cluelessness about US politics, so I am on the fence.

If the organization is being taken over by south asian muslims, that's interesting.

[Toots]

47. Do the Pakistanis write in English and then convert to Arabic?

OK I believe you ,,,,honest..

[Dhalgren]

10. Or by some Cheney operative?

If this is true, that it was originally written in English, it is a bombshell! There is simply no way to spin this if the original is English. Why would a "South Asian" person write the original in English? If he means a Pakistani (which is how I interpreted it), then would a Pakistani write out the text in English? I suppose he might, but why? It seems more likely that this tape is Western in origin, at least as likely...

[flordehinojos]

12. penned by poppy bush himself to save sonny boy from people beginning

to see through his lies, manipulations, spin and power grabs! after all, poppy bush promised his audience in the run-up to the november elections that, "this boy of mine will not disappoint you."

[EFerrari]

23. I noticed that they trotted out 41 the other night to try to quiet

the murder of innocent Pakis.

[flordehinojos]

38. i didn't see that but coming from ole 41 it must have sounded just as

phony as phony can be!

just like his trip to devastated regions without bill clinton. a man who hates the massess in a region where the masses need comforting, nee--not a handout but programs to help them build their homes--education to help them achieve something better, or at least education to better whateve way it is that they choose to want to live by ... all of that, a man whose soul could be no more supremacist and fascist ... they can smell the phoniness miles away, i am sure!

[SupplyConcerns]

19. Bingo.

[Dunvegan]

3. Not so much Asian, maybe...

...as CIAzian.

[xultar]

4. Rovian english.

[Stephanie]

13. maybe

he is a known forger

[neoblues]

5. Well, it didn't "sound" like his typical diatribe...

Where "sound" doesn't refer to the audio, but the language.

[EFerrari]

31. Bingo. And no one in the corporate media is picking up on this. nt

[hiaasenrocks]

7. You know...I was thinking this speech sounded very different than

ones in the past. Even the translations for the previous bin Laden tapes sounded choppy and awkward. Of course, because they're translations, and bin Laden wouldn't be using Western phrases. This time, however, the whole thing seemed...exceptionally Western-sounding. (Again, I am of course not talking about the actual translator speaking -- I'm talking about the phrases and the content.)

I don't think he wrote it. And I don't think Fandy's excuse makes the cut.

I am highly suspicious of this "bin Laden" communication. The way it sounded, the timing, the rapidity with which rightwingnuts jumped on the "bin Laden sounds like Murtha and the Democrats" bullshit.

We're being lied to. Surprise!

[Pam-Moby]

9. I find it odd that the word Allah was not used at all in that speech.

Think about the first tape that was released a few years ago. It was filled with the words Allah.

[RebelOne]

40. Yes, and in this tape he repeatedly says "Praise be to God"

and "God willing." Sounds sort of fishy to me.

[GrumpyGreg]

11. He's saying it's South Asian? Hmmmm !!!!

[JohnyCanuck]

14. Wouldn't be the first time an Osama tape was faked

And it's probably even easier to fake an audio tape than a video tape.

The Fake bin Laden Video Tape
YOU ARE LOOKING AT A US GOVERNMENT LIE

A videotape purportedly showing Osama bin Laden confessing to the 9/11 attacks was made public on December 13, 2001:

<snip>

To be perfectly honest it is preposterous to suggest this videotape could be authentic, but lets have a look at it anyway. Here's 5 Osamas - which is the odd one out?



Even Mr Magoo would have to say that Osama 'E' stands out like a sore thumb, and this is the man confessing on the "lucky find" tape. Between the nose and the cheeks it is clear that this man is NOT Osama.

In the video Osama 'E' appears to write notes with his right hand, yet the FBI's description of Osama indicates he is left-handed. Osama 'E' wears a ring on his right hand which does not appear on other confirmed photos of Osama (e.g. Osama 'B'). Another man is seen wearing a large gold ring in the video. Since the wearing of gold rings is forbidden by Islam it shows neither he nor Osama 'E' has any devotion to this faith.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

[salvorhardin]

15. Oh great!

Another link to a holocaust-denying antisemite.
http://www.sicmuse.com/weblog/archives/000553.htm

Don't people get tired of being associated with racist bigots?

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. "E" is defintiely a different person.

A, C and D look like the same person based on the beard marks.

This is worst than Elvis sightings.

[Nordmadr]

46. Now, besides our government assertions, isn't that particular video tape

featuring Osama B the only one where there is an indication that he actually accepts reponsibilty for the attacks? Funny that.

I also have to agree if we have technology to do voice recognition then we certainly also have technology to do voice duplication. The fact that this is just an audio tape and that there are indications that it was actually written in English, make me doubt its authenticity. Just doesn't make sense. This simply reinforces my suspicion that this tape is a White House plant.

Olafr

[peacetalksforall]

16. My guess is that Ledeen wrote it and a Pakistani translated it and

someone other than bin Laden read it. That didn't sound like any of the other bin Laden voices.

And wasn't it proved before that a translation of a bin Laden speech that we receive a few years ago was not what was said in Arabic? And didn't many feel that the dress and movements of the executioners of Berg weren't Arabic? And what about the British intelligence who were caught setting off some of the bombs in Iraq?

Are all these urban legends?

I find life easy. I don't believe anything coming from right wing corporate propaganda pushers. The hosts I heard today more or less made fun of it.

It's a non-story except for the deception.

[Straight Shooter]

17. The "great inspired leader" of AQ has lost his ability to ad lib rhetoric?

I don't believe it. This is something orchestrated to save bush and the floundering GOP. Even if the threat is real enough, which I believe OBL is always a threat because he's a religious fanatic, I cannot believe that the words spoken are words from his own heart.

Or perhaps circumstances have changed for OBL. Maybe he is now in a position where his will is being superseded by others, and they are using him as a prop, just as the neocons use bush as a prop.

[gunsaximbo]

18. FAKE!!!!

CIA wrote it. It's a way out of Iraq.

[tonka023]

20. The first thoughts that came to my head

were that, that's it's a fake and a way out
of Iraq. I pray that it will be exposed
and doesn't snow too many people.

[Swamp Rat]

22. Something is rotten in Denmark.

This certainly leave a lot open to speculation.

[rumpel]

26. Cheney did his tour to the Middle East recently. When did we ever hear him

work the diplomatic channel?
What was the official reason for the trip? To drum up support for Iran and plant rumors like a fake OBL tape?

and I agree, the reasoning of the professor was very strained. South Asian? Is he implying Indonesia or Philippines.
Why would he have a speech writer from Indonesia or the Philippines. Does not make sense to me.

This morning on CNN Nic Robertson said, that there is no increase in chatter according to the FBI.

So. Hmmmmmmm.

It reeeeeks.

[Stephanie]

42. the trip was very low key

I was looking for photos and there were just a very few - it wasn't a big publicity tour like George's trips are.

both professors also agreed that when bin Laden offers a truce, that means he is about to attack, because he'll use the rejection of the truce as his reason.

[Historic NY]

27. Osama is in Cheney's undisclosed location.........

how else would he still be alive with all his medical problems.

[EFerrari]

28. I'm wondering, when in the history of a people, has there been

such a massive propaganda campaign.

Coming up empty.

[Horse with no Name]

29. I mentioned this in another thread

but IMHO the reason we are seeing an OBL communique at this point in time is because Georgie said that if those big bad Dem's keep telling the truth, the terrorists are gonna hurt us.
I believe we will have another terrorist attack *soon* on American soil.
With this attack, King George will drive this point home to the sheeple to stifle dissent.
Martial law will be here.

[EFerrari]

30. Well, (adjusting tinfoil headgear) haven't they been threatening

us at every turn? I also expect another incident.

Because they are cornered. All their scandals are coming home to them. What else do they have left to do?

And they will invent a new name for martial law, like "emergency freedom measures".

[Horse with no Name]

32. But it will be "for our own good"

so the sheeple will eat it up.

[EFerrari]

33. I wonder. If you think about it, they've escalated because

people are increasingly not buying into their baloney.

I think they are losing their audience. And, frankly, that's what worries me. There's nothing these guys won't do, imho.

[Horse with no Name]

35. Exactly

They are cornered. But remember, most Americans don't support the MIHOP/LIHOP of 911. They can't support that. The warm and safe cocoon that they feel when they speak of their country and democracy is inviolate.
When we have another attack on our soil, they will burrow further into that cocoon and be willing to trade any freedom they have gladly so that their home doesn't become the NEXT Ground Zero.

[Nothing Without Hope]

36. Absolutely agree. And it's the reason they have been setting up the

"legal" precedent that Bush is not limited by law or Congress. The leaked DoJ document claiming that Bush can do warrantless wiretapping any time he wants no matter what Congress says:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2052322
thread title (1-19-06 LBN): Justice Department to declare warrantless wiretaps legal (leaked Doc)
and their zeal to get Alito on the SCOTUS is all part of it. And yes, if they feel cornered enough, they will not hesitate to stage another event like the 9/11 attacks to "justify" their final move to overt martial law. They want the Iran war because of its planned Euro-based oil bourse, so whatever the attack is, it will be blamed on Iran. Jerome Corsi has been talking about how Iran will nuclear-bomb New York for months:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1768708
despite the best available evidence that Iran does NOT have the ability to make nuclear bombs and will not have for years:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4252778
...but then the cabal itself may have given Iran some nuclear technology...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x135727

[Nothing Without Hope]

34. Some additional threads casting doubts on tape's authenticity:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=183367
thread title (1-19-06 GD): OBL audio: See voice morphing tech. 1999 WaPo article!!!
Good reason to wonder – is it REALLY Bin Laden on those tapes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x188355#188427
thread title (1-19-06 GD): Something curious about the Bin Laden tape.
An Arabic speaker says that the new tape doesn’t seem to be in his style.

Interesting post in the previous thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=188355&mesg_id=190081
Reply #74 (1-20-06): Michael Ledeen {actually misspelled as Micheal Leeden} says OBL died in mid-Dec, 2005

...and of course the timing is just too, too perfect:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x185646
thread title (1-19-06 GD): What's happening tomorrow, that BushCo would need a distraction?
Why is the “new” bin Laden tape surfacing noisily right now? Clearly the Bushies have multiple reasons, but I’m betting it’s most related to the leaked DoJ memo “legalizing” warrantless spying and the confirmation of Alito, who would help to uphold this precedent for unchecked presidential power.

[sofa king]

37. If I happened to bag Osama, this is just what I'd have him do.

The very last thing I'd do if I caught a major leader of a terrorist group is tell anyone I'd caught him. Instead, I'd put his ass to work dismantling his own organization.

If I did catch him, there's no way I would allow him to compose his own messages either, because particular turns of phrase and references to religious text may be used to run his operatives. I'd run the risk of having some analysts notice the patterns of translation from English to Arabic, but I'd have my own news plants to fight those observers.

There may be "go" codes; there may also be "stay" codes which might be as simple as, "if you don't hear my voice on television by the Islamic New Year (Jan 31, this year), proceed with your operation without further direction from me." That could be one influence on the timing.

But if I were a small-minded and avaricious politician thrust into responsibility for such a counterterrorist operation, the way I would plant my imprimatur on it would be to turn the operation also to my personal advantage. That could be another influence on the timing.

Regrettably, I think this incident will be enigmatic for decades, perhaps forever. That's just how everyone involved wants it.

[XemaSab]

39. Osama speaks fluent English

:shrug:

[canichelouis]

41. But thinks in Arabic

I smell a rat.

[Junkdrawer]

48. self-delete - posted wrong spot n/t

[txindy]

50. Maybe, but would he write a speech in English & then translate to Arabic?

Who would do such a thing and why? As an example, I understand that Junior's brother, Jebbers, speaks fluent Spanish. Do you think it likely he writes his speeches in Spanish and then translates them into English for delivery? I seriously doubt it.

None of OBL's other speeches have been similar to this latest one. It's unique. Strangely so.

[stickdog]

44. Rovama Being Laden (nt)

[mwb970]

45. I assumed it was faked in some way when I first heard of it.

The timing is just so convenient for the Republicans. It's funny - before the election we had unending terror alerts whenever Bush's numbers dipped. Now, a direct threat supposedly from Osama himself doesn't change the alert level and we make no response.

2000 years from now, people will be still be studying the evil government that was in charge right before the end of the once-great American nation. It will hold the kind of fascination we feel for the tragic end of the Roman Empire. They had it all. What went wrong?

Of course, our decline happened much faster.

[Stephanie]

52. that's right - before the rep. convention we had that Citicorp threat

which turned out to be based on four year old computer files. Yet they went to orange threat level and locked down big chunks of midtown Manhattan. This time? Feh.

[Junkdrawer]

49. "Hey Shafig, get your crazy brother Usama to read this"...

"Thursday would be good"...

[Mudcloth]

53. Two things bother me about this tape

First, it's an audio tape. A really crappy sounding audio tape. It's sounds like he recorded it on a wax cylinder and transferred it to an answering machine.Think about it. Who uses tape? You mean there's no laptop in his entourage? He couldn't burn a cd. I don't care if you're on the run in the mountains of pakistan, if you can record on a tape machine you can record on anything. His voice should be crystal clear with no static or fuzz.
Secondly, if you can record a message on to audio tape why not make a video? I've heard that maybe he's changed his appearance and doesn't want to be seen but if he's trying to rally his base it would be more important to be clearly seen and heard.
Who really belives this guy is still alive? When I heard this on NPR yesterday as their lead story at 5:00 I thought " Are you kidding me?". It was everybody's lead with no one questioning the authenticity of it. "The C.I.A. confirms it was Bin Laden." Well if they confirm it it must be true! Why would the C.I.A. say this? Why does the MSN fall right into line with this bullshit?
I can't believe they're trying to use scare tactics again. "Let's see, things have been going very badly for us over the last few months and it's about to get worse. What can we do? We could pull another Bin Laden tape out of our ass. Yes, let's go with that." Jesus, they're just phoning it in now. God I hope it doesn't work on any of the 61 percenters.

[janx]

54. He's alive.

No doubt about it now.

[Stephanie]

57. Welcome to DU, Mudcloth!

you raise good points.

[Igel]

55. There are other options for why it sounds that way.

All unpalatable, but just as plausible.

1) He cribbed his text from English-language texts, and isn't a good enough translator to nativize his speech. Since many respect his style, this strikes me as iffy. The Pakistanis that he'd be hanging out with are frequently good at Arabic, the language of Allah, the language in which prayers and sermons and the Qur'aan must be read; some MMA politicians give their *domestic* stump speeches in Arabic. Reading 'paraphrases' doesn't cut it. Many of the peasants may not be fluent and well-versed, but the clerics and jihadis would want to be, and encourage his use of Arabic to improve their own.

2) He's speaking to his audience. It may be that he completely believes that * can be defeated by the dem, anti-war majority that's bristling and about to take to the streets to pull us out. Just as there were reports of widespread panic and many hundreds killed in the July London bombings, with many thousands of people taking to the streets. So he says what he thinks will get our ear.

Many of the more ornate phrases he's used in the past are rooted in Arab, frequently specifically Qur'aanic culture: they translate poorly and need commentary, sometimes even for Arabs.

3) We're getting the expurgated edition: Just what al-Jazeera, after sitting on the tape for weeks, thinks they should broadcast. Previous speeches have had non-flowery sections. They've had numerous target audiences. This audiotape was 10 minutes long. We've heard a minute. Selective editing of other tapes could easily produce the same kind of result. Al-Jazeera may not *want* to include the bits that target Arab/Muslim audiences, simply because they've been hit for promoting chaos and extremism, and since that particular chicken's come home to roost in Arab countries a lot of it's become less popular.

[havocmom]

56. The tape sure knocked any chatter of day traders in Frist's office!

Gee, he and DeLay looked to be in a huge insider trading story then suddenly a tape from Osama... With mention of polls in America instead of right and wrong according to Osama's take on Allah's will. Offering hope and an honorable exit from Iraq for the US... during an election year and as those polls show people not happy with the occupation.

Bet ya a dollar Frist and DeLay are real good boys from now on. Bet any showing of independence from the junta is done for. Also bet they get off easy. But they are bought and paid for.

Sorta like McCain, they will be forced to do the devil's bidding til the end of time.

Timing is everything, especially if you are in the habit of using extortion as a means to insure loyalty.

[Stephanie]

65. timing indeed!

whenever trouble looms for bushco the bogey man mysteriously appears.

[BurtWorm]

58. Stephanie, you are a treasure!

How the hell did you catch that?

:toast:

[Stephanie]

59. lol!

I watched the show! :hi:

[BurtWorm]

60. I wonder what Juan Cole will say about this.

He's always noticing quirks in Arabic translations.

[BurtWorm]

62. I've got a question into Cole on this.

I'll post his reply if I get it:

Professor Cole,

This was brought to my attention by a poster at DemocraticUnderground.com named "Stephanie," who was struck by a comment on the Lehrer News Hour last night from Mamoun Fandy of Rice University:


JIM LEHRER: So the danger here then -- if I hear you both correctly -- is that he could inspire a group that doesn't answer to him, but reacts to inspirational words from him, is that what you are suggesting?

PAUL PILLAR: Right.

MAMOUN FANDY: Right, but this particular tape is not terribly inspiring, just looking at the language of it. This is the first tape of bin Laden that has no single verse from the Koran. It does not have the flowery language of Arabic.

****It seems to me that it is written in English first, and then translated into Arabic. It is very western style of tape.It is not very characteristic of bin Laden, at least it tells me that the non-Arabic speaking within the al-Qaida network are taking over the organization --****

JIM LEHRER: You mean he didn't write this is what you are suggesting?

MAMOUN FANDY: The Arabic speakers in al-Qaida, the parts that are coming from the Arab world, are losing to the non-Arabic speaker, so it's really becoming more of a South Asian organization, rather than an Arab organization.

(my asterisks)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june06/osama_1-19.html

(Stephanie's post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=189557&mesg_id=189557)


As you can see, Professor Cole, Fandy interprets his insight as evidence of South Asian influence in al Qaeda. Did you notice the same thing Fandy noticed? Are there other possible explanations? Does bin Laden usually have others write his speeches?

Thanks very much for your help in this matter.

[Stephanie]

63. cool!

will be interesting to see what his take is.

[robbedvoter]

61. " Heightened security measures" clued me in - and I only saw the English

version. Sounded too much like a WH press release - kinds like Chalabi's speech to the House here (WH admitted helping with the translation there)

[Stephanie]

64. sounds exactly like a WH talking point

curiouser and curiouser

[Nikki Stone 1]

66. kick way up!

:kick:

[rainbow4321]

67. "non-Arabic speaking within the al-Qaida network are taking over"

Guess that's why chimp wants our kids to learn Arabic..so they can make more authentic sounding Bin Laden tapes in the years to come.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3586962.html

Much of the instruction is intended to focus not on the traditional European and Latin American languages that Americans have tended to study most, but also on what the U.S. government has identified as languages "critical" for national security.

These include Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Hindi and Farsi, among others.

Bush intends to request $114 million in fiscal 2007 for the programs, which involve the departments of State, Education and Defense, as well as the director of national intelligence, according to officials who briefed reporters on details. The announcement came at a gathering early this month of more than 120 U.S. university presidents at the State Department.

"When Americans learn to speak a language, learn to speak Arabic, those in the Arabic region will say, 'Gosh, America's interested in us. They care enough to learn how we speak,'" Bush said.

[savemefromdumbya]

68. Fake - inspired by the Cheney/Goebbels propaganda unit