I know how to stop all gun ownership in America

[rpgamerd00d]

Each state can form an official state Militia.
Then, do not offer any applications to join the Militia, making it impossible to be a member.

I think that would officially remove everyones right to own a gun, given that they would then officially NOT be part of the OFFICIAL state militia.

OK, this is a stupid thread, I was bored.

:D

[htuttle]

1. You're right

This IS a stupid thread.

[Al-CIAda]

59. seconded.

[Gormy Cuss]

2. to quote from an old Western movie:

"You just keep thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at." :D

[rinsd]

3. Not unprecendented unfortunately...see the Marijuana Stamp Act (nt)

[-..__...]

13. Along the same lines...

Pass a bill or bit of legislation that would reinstate a right, then simply refuse to allocate the funding for it.


(A10) Q. How can a person convicted of a felony apply for relief from firearms disabilities?

A. Under the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from possessing firearms. (See 18 U.S.C. section 922(g).) The GCA provides the Secretary of the Treasury with the authority to grant relief from this disability where the Secretary determines that the person is not likely to act in a manner dangerous to the public safety. (See 18 U.S.C. section 925(c).) The Secretary delegated this authority to ATF.

Since October 1992, however, ATF's annual appropriation has continuously prohibited the expending of any funds to investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities. This restriction is located in Pub. L. No. 107-67, 115 Stat. 514, which contains ATF appropriations for fiscal year 2002. As long as this provision is included in current ATF appropriations, the Bureau cannot act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities submitted by individuals. Consequently, we cannot entertain any individual's request for firearms restoration while this prohibition on the processing of such applications remains in place.

Furthermore, the restriction contained in Pub. L. No. 107-67 does not change the status of prohibited persons. They are still prohibited from possessing, receiving, transporting, or shipping firearms under Federal law.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a10

[DS1]

4. I've got a better idea

Hang an enormous electromagnet over the U.S. Turn it on. Watch those guns fly!

[eyesroll]

5. And pacemakers too!

"Dance, Cheney, dance!"

:bounce:

[DS1]

8. and people with false hips

hearing aids


shit, why didn't Hitler think of this?

[youngred]

6. *duck*

watch the fireworks fly

I agree wholeheartedly but you're brewin up a classic flame-fest (unintentionally or not)

[maxsolomon]

7. how would you propose making the militia "well-regulated"?

cuz that's technically the reason we're supposed to have guns. and i don't see any "regulation".

[rpgamerd00d]

10. Pass all the regulations you want.

Everyone would agree... :)

[maxsolomon]

28. LOL

my regulation #1: no bullets for neandertals.

[Lefty48197]

66. Most of the gun nuts think "well regulated" means "un regulated"

funny...

[quisp]

9. I've actually suggested that

to some of my gun nut friends. The idea is this: any able-bodied person who owns a gun is in the "well regulated militia" (the part of the 2nd amendment ignored by the NRA) and being subject to regulation you should have to show up to drill and demonstrate proficiency with your weapon.

Oh yeah, and then put a 1000% tax on ammunition. Make that 9mm round cost about $100 each.

[firefox]

11. End ownership with licensing agreements

The lawyers will argue that outlawing ownership does not stop the bearing of arms. This would allow Microsoft to enter the market of licensing firearms with tracking devices and a per shot fee optional.

[-..__...]

12. I hope Sarah Brady isn't reading this thread.

Wouldn't want to give her any ideas.

[DavidDvorkin]

14. Each state has an official militia

It's the National Guard.

Known as the colonial militias during the Colonial era. After independence, they called themselves state militias. Later still, the New York state militia changed its name to the National Guard, and the name change spread.

Thats' what the Founding Fathers were referring to in the first place.

[Ian David]

15. Convince the Republicans that handling fire arms turns people gay. n/t

[trotsky]

16. Wow! That's great! Now if ending gun ownership were a Democratic goal...

you might just have something there. :eyes:

[napi21]

17. Why do you want to end gun ownership?

It's only a small % or people who misuse guns, and those people will find some other weapon to enable their crime.

Hell, I'd like to eliminate vehicle ownership. A LOPT more people misuse cars & trucks, and that misuse harms more people, but eliminating them just doesn't make sense!!!

[havocmom]

27. Swimming pools too.

Get rid of those things! They're dangerous. Drownings, neck and head injuries, brain damage, contribute to skin cancer increase, might harbor dangerous bacterial agents... ;)

[rpgamerd00d]

30. I know of no recorded murder cases perpetrated with a pool

I don't think a person can even lift a pool, unless its one of those tiny plastic kiddie pools.

[havocmom]

34. lots of accidental deaths and injuries

to say nothing of the problems with pools when drugs or alcohol get involved. More than with guns I hear. We best wipe them off the planet.

And, if I wanted to murder someone, I wouldn't use a firearm; too easy to prove case against me. Safer to spike someone's gator aide with commonly used recreational drugs and let them bob off to eternity. Hard to prove murder in a case like that so one really can't rule out pools as murder weapons. :evilgrin:

[rpgamerd00d]

36. The pool didnt murder them, the drug did

Same thing if you manually hold them under water. It would be considered strangulation/asphixiation.

Accidents are irrelevant to the discussion.

Only murders are relevant. How many car murders are there? Even if you add in drunk driving deaths as "murders", it doesn't compare to gun murders.

[wicket]

37. ok, but why do you want to end gun ownership?

n/t

[rpgamerd00d]

38. I never said I did. I just said I knew how.

:D

And I was wrong, anyway, so it doesnt matter now.

[wicket]

42. ok, I get it now

My mistake- I apologize :D

[havocmom]

52. Nope, the person did. Same as when it happens with a gun or knife

It's the people

[lost democrat]

63. why not use a gun

i mean if you ever come to the south i can take you on a tour of all the dumping grounds. ever hear of corbin kentucky. duck town tenn. blairsville ga. okeefenokee swamps fla. entire state of ala. and miss. and now for the big one NEW ORLEANS that hurricane washed quite a few bodies and the cops are handling the live ones. go armed only with 2 big souther boys with short haircuts and you will be safe.

[oregonindy]

39. then we need to outlaw all the rest of the tools for murder

cars
screwdrivers
scissors
knives
bricks
sticks
etc.....

quit trying to legislate ownership of objects and instead work on education and use of objects in a civilized society

liberal with a gun and plan on keepin it.

[rpgamerd00d]

43. Flawed logic

We can murder with our hands, but we can't ban hands.

Your argument is flawed.

The banning of murder tools can be intelligently restricted to those objects that simplify and amplify the occurances and severity of murders beyond practical levels. Therefore, you can just ban guns and leave axes and knives as legal.

Try again.

:)

[oregonindy]

45. heres a country with tough gun laws....seems the knife took over

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4527570.stm

last paragraphs


I'll find the statistics on gun vs knives for ya.

[-..__...]

47. Not for long if some have it their way.

(I love the accompanying pic... looks like something right out of "Physco")



Doctors seek kitchen knife ban
EDWARD BLACK

Key points
• Doctors claim long kitchen knives serve no purpose except as weapons
• 55 out of 108 homicide victims in Scotland were stabbed last year
• Police superintendents say a ban would be difficult to enforce

Key quote
"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long pointed kitchen knife is an easily available, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting" - Dr Emma Hern, writing in British Medical Journal

Story in full LONG, pointed kitchen knives should be banned as part of a concerted effort to reduce the terrible injuries and deaths caused by stabbing attacks, doctors warned today.

Accident and emergency medics claim the knives serve no useful purpose in the kitchen but are proving deadly on the streets of Britain, with the doctors claiming the knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

The doctors claimed they had consulted leading chefs who said the knives were not needed for cooking - a claim disputed by chefs contacted by The Scotsman.

Latest figures from the Scottish Executive show that in 2003, 55 of 108 homicide victims were stabbed by a sharp instrument - often a kitchen knife.

complete story

[creeker]

50. ever heard of holding some one under water?

[NickB79]

18. Except that you don't have to be a member of an official state militia

To be recognized as a militia member.

Per Title 10: Section 311 of the United States Code:

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

[Silverhair]

19. Here is some milita law that may interest you.

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

[rpgamerd00d]

21. So 46+ yr old men and women not in the Nat Guard....

... do not have the right to own guns, according to that, since they are not allowed in the militia, and the 2nd amendment only grants the rights to those in the "well regulated" militia.

Interesting.

[jody]

24. Some state militia go up to 64, e.g. Louisiana. n/t

[rpgamerd00d]

26. How can a state override a federal law?

If militias are not federal, then I go back to my original post - make a militia no one can legally be a member of.
If the national law holds, then the age limit is 45.

[jody]

29. Militias are fundamentally state units. Under our Constitution, Congress

is supposed "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;".

Until they are called into federal service, they remain under the command of each state's governor.

[rpgamerd00d]

31. Then what is that Title 10 stuff?

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

=======================

Where is that from?

[jody]

33. The Title 10 defines those people who may be called into federal service.

[Obamanaut]

20. Are you willing to give up your much deadlier automobile?

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

General Gun Violence Statistics
In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:
17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).


http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/stats-usa.htm

Total Road Deaths in the USA
2001 42,196
2002 43,005
2003 42,884
2001 42,636

I’ll keep my firearms. Will you give up your motor vehicle(s)?

[rpgamerd00d]

22. Statistics are fun, watch this!

Deaths in 2002 : 73,247
Deaths in 2002 if guns were banned: 43,005
Total lives saved had guns been banned: 30,242

WOW!

[Obamanaut]

44. Save even more by requiring everyone to become pedestrians

Goodness knows there are probably some pesky bicycle accidents just waiting to happen. Or, stop all the firearm suicides - no one will think of pills, nooses, knives, bridges (for jumping), etc ad infinitum.

I think statistic manipulation is even more fun than mere statistics.

Will banning anything make it go away? If it were that easy, we could ban all kinds of stuff. I imagine the fires in Texas would not have occurred if tossing cigarettes out of car windows or trash burning had been banned. Oh wait - they were. I know, I'll simply ban you by pushing the ignore button.

WOW!

Yes, this is a useless thread.

[lost democrat]

56. only 1,110 deaths buy owners of guns

thats the number of deaths by registerd gun owners with a lega gun and 40% were stoping home invasion. you do not want to know what race or country of origin tthat most of the deats by guns come from

[jody]

23. If you are between 17 and 45 and not exempted, you are a militia member.

:hi:

[havocmom]

35. Don't they have something like that in Switzerland?

Every adult has a weapon and trains a bit each year or something? Sounds fine to me. Wonder if there are less rapes and other violent attack crimes there.

[jody]

41. Interesting question. Suggest you visit DU's "Guns" forum for discussions

on that topic.

[Freddie Stubbs]

25. What makes you think that most states (if any) would want to stop

all gun ownership? :shrug:

[Initech]

32. Personally, I like Chris Rock's idea

Make the guns inexpensive, but make the BULLETS $5,000 a piece.

[-..__...]

46. It might sound funny coming from a comedian...

but not coming from a Congressman or legislative body.

From http://thomas.loc.gov

Real Cost of Destructive Ammunition Act (Introduced in Senate)

S 152 IS

106th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 152

To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to increase the tax on handgun ammunition, to impose the special occupational tax and registration requirements on importers and manufacturers of handgun ammunition, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

January 19, 1999

Mr. MOYNIHAN introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Finance

A BILL

To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to increase the tax on handgun ammunition, to impose the special occupational tax and registration requirements on importers and manufacturers of handgun ammunition, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Real Cost of Destructive Ammunition Act'.

SEC. 2. INCREASE IN TAX ON HANDGUN AMMUNITION.

(a) INCREASE IN MANUFACTURERS TAX-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to imposition of tax on firearms) is amended--

(A) by striking `Shells, and cartridges.' and inserting `Shells and cartridges not taxable at 10,000 percent.', and

(B) by adding at the end the following:

`ARTICLES TAXABLE AT 10,000 PERCENT-

`Any jacketed, hollow point projectile which may be used in a handgun and the jacket of which is designed to produce, upon impact, evenly-spaced sharp or barb-like projections that extend beyond the diameter of the unfired projectile.'

(2) ADDITIONAL TAXES ADDED TO THE GENERAL FUND- Section 3(a) of the Act of September 2, 1937 (16 U.S.C. 669b(a)), commonly referred to as the `Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act', is amended by adding at the end the following new sentence: `There shall not be covered into the fund the portion of the tax imposed by such section 4181 that is attributable to any increase in amounts received in the Treasury under such section by reason of the amendments made by section 2(a)(1) of the Real Cost of Destructive Ammunition Act, as estimated by the Secretary of the Treasury.'

SEC. 3. SPECIAL TAX FOR IMPORTERS, MANUFACTURERS, AND DEALERS OF HANDGUN AMMUNITION.

(a) IN GENERAL-

(1) IMPOSITION OF TAX- Section 5801 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to special occupational tax on importers, manufacturers, and dealers of machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(c) SPECIAL RULE FOR HANDGUN AMMUNITION-

`(1) IN GENERAL- On 1st engaging in business and thereafter on or before July 1 of each year, every importer and manufacturer of handgun ammunition shall pay a special (occupational) tax for each place of business at the rate of $10,000 a year or fraction thereof.

`(2) HANDGUN AMMUNITION DEFINED- For purposes of this part, the term `handgun ammunition' shall mean any centerfire cartridge which has a cartridge case of less than 1.3 inches in length and any cartridge case which is less than 1.3 inches in length.'

(2) REGISTRATION OF IMPORTERS AND MANUFACTURERS OF HANDGUN AMMUNITION- Section 5802 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to registration of importers, manufacturers, and dealers) is amended--

(A) in the first sentence, by inserting `, and each importer and manufacturer of handgun ammunition,' after `dealer in firearms', and

(B) in the third sentence, by inserting `, and handgun ammunition operations of an importer or manufacturer,' after `dealer'.

(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS-

(1) CHAPTER HEADING- Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms) is amended in the chapter heading by inserting `HANDGUN AMMUNITION,' after `CHAPTER 53--'.

(2) TABLE OF CHAPTERS- The heading for chapter 53 in the table of chapters for subtitle E of such Code is amended to read as follows:

`Chapter 53--Handgun ammunition, machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms.'

(c) EFFECTIVE DATE-

(1) IN GENERAL- The amendments made by this section shall take effect on July 1, 1999.

(2) ALL TAXPAYERS TREATED AS COMMENCING IN BUSINESS ON JULY 1, 1997- Any person engaged on July 1, 1999, in any trade or business which is subject to an occupational tax by reason of the amendment made by subsection (a)(1) shall be treated for purposes of such tax as having 1st engaged in a trade of business on such date.



California Assembly bil 2858

http://www.boe.ca.gov/legdiv/sptleg/pdf/ab2858-1bm-final.pdf

(Note: PDF file)


BILL SUMMARY
This bill would impose a 10% fee upon munitions sold at retail and a 5% fee upon
handguns sold at retail.
Current Law
Under existing law, a state and local sales and use tax is imposed on the sale or use of
tangible personal property in this state, including munitions and handguns. Currently,
the total combined sales and use tax rate is between 7 ¼ percent to 8 ½ percent,
depending on the location in which the merchandise is sold. The Board does not collect
any additional taxes or fees on the sale or use of munitions and handguns.
The Department of Justice administers a fee imposed on gun sales. The Dealer Record
of Sale (DROS) fee is imposed on gun purchasers and collected by the selling dealer.
The fee is currently $14, and is used to cover the costs of mandatory background
checks. There is also a required $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety
and Enforcement fee imposed on gun sales.
Proposed Law
This bill would add Chapter 2.8 (commencing with Section 12330) to Title 2 of Part 4 of
the Penal Code to impose a fee as follows:
10 percent of the retail sales price for each munition sold at retail on or after January
1, 2006, or purchased outside this state that are intended to be stored or used in this
5 percent of the retail sales price for each handgun sold at retail on or after January
This bill would provide an exemption from the proposed fee for the following:
Any munition purchased by any peace officer required to carry a firearm while on
duty, or by any governmental law enforcement agency employing that officer, for use
in the normal course of employment.
Ammunition sold to any person holding a valid California hunting license that is
purchasing ammunition intended to be used in a rifle or shotgun.
A transaction conducted pursuant to Section 12082 or 12084 in order to comply with
subdivision (d) of Section 12072. These sections refer to private party handgun
sales that require the assistance of a licensed firearms dealer (Section 12082) or a
law enforcement agency (Section 12084).
A transaction that complies with an exemption from the requirements of subdivision
(d) of Section 12072. Such exemptions include gun buy back programs, transfers by

[Initech]

49. A 10,000% tax on ammo? Damn!

[Egalitariat]

40. My neighbor formed a milita. He regulates it well. I'm a member***

nm

[SkiGuy]

48. I say just remove God from everything, ban guns completely then

there will be less arguing on DU :sarcasm:

[lost democrat]

51. GUN OWNERSHIP

I am new and 58 years old and live in the south. you can win an election in the south and mid west on this 1 item. guns!!! i got em, my mothers got em, my grandmother even shot and x son inlaw for trying to kidnap his son. come to think of it she shot him in the leg maybe she could have taught target shooting to the n.o. police force and the undercover sky cops.we can win if we just shut up and vote oh we got to get paper ballotts to.

[jody]

53. Welcome to DU. Please visit DU's "Guns" forum and contribute.

:hi:

[lost democrat]

62. IM STUPID HOW DO I DO THAT

THANKS FOR THE WELCOME
just looking for place to hang out

[jody]

64. On the "Discuss" page, look on the upper left and click on "Topic Forums"

On the page that comes up scroll down to "Guns" and click on that.

Have fun. :hi:

[lost democrat]

65. IM A TRYING GOTTA RELOAD FIRST

[Freedom_Aflaim]

54. Chicago and DC have done this with great success

Not the militia angle, but registration.

They require all guns to be registered, and then refuse to allow registrations.

Quite inventive and effective.

[-..__...]

55. Must have worked.

Last I heard Chicago and DC easily have the lowest crime and gun violence rates in the nation.

:sarcasm:

[Freedom_Aflaim]

57. Well there is no question that DC and Chicago are violent citys

hence the reason why its so important to keep gun ownership to a minimum.

Sadly criminals are criminals and they tend ignore gun ownership laws when they steal their weapons and murder people.

However we need to keep in mind that they steal these weapons from law abiding people...THATS how they arm themselves.

The only solution we havent tried is to disarm everyone (except the police/military of course)

If nobody has a gun, then who can they steal it from?

[-..__...]

61. If nobody has a gun, then who can they steal it from?

Uhhh, the police and the military.

[Elwood P Dowd]

58. More gun control talk = more voters siding with the repukes

= more lost congressional seats = more repuke governors = more repuke senators = no chance of electing a dem president.

[Al-CIAda]

60. Only a retard would want to DISARM when faced with this fascist regeme.

[derby378]

67. Thaaaank YOU!

My sentiments exactly. With Nero in the White House, we need more guns in private hands instead of less.

[benEzra]

68. Problems with that...

(1) Between 65 and 80 MILLION people of voting age legally own guns in this country. Around one third of them are registered Democrats. Nearly all of them would leave the party if you managed to enact your little scheme.

(2) A MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS AND INDEPENDENTS IN MANY SWING STATES OWN GUNS, including my state of NC. WTF do you think that would do to the repubs' chances of getting crossover votes in those states, hmmm?

(3) Law-abiding gun owners are NOT the problem.

(4) It is already blatantly illegal for a criminal to so much as touch a gun, or a single round of ammunition. They're not turning in their guns now, so why do you think they'd turn in their guns under your scheme? It's already illegal.

(5) Criminals could still manufacture and traffic in illegal guns. Sheesh, they could disguise them as routine cocaine shipments.

(6) Look how well drug prohibition is working--and drugs disappear when used and don't last a thousand years.

(7) If you want to come up with a way to start a full-blown Iraq-style civil war in this country, gun confiscation would be it. And half the military and police forces would be fighting on the insurgents' side.

(8) No, you can't have our family's guns. Period. Non-negotiable.