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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:17 AM
Original message
Why is it when Hezbolla kills innocent citizens it is,
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 11:19 AM by WCGreen
according to Bush, terrorism.....

But when Bush unleashes the full furry of the might US armed forces, civilians killed in that action are considered "collateral damage"....

On Edit.... This post is related to comments made by Bush in his morning briefing today...
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. From what I can gather,
Edited on Mon Aug-07-06 11:20 AM by bowens43
it's because Hezbolla doesn't wear fancy uniforms. If they DID wear fancy uniforms like the Americans and the Israelis , they would be an army, then they could kill civilians all day long and it would not be terrorism.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Good point......
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. its not the uniform: its congruency with neocon agenda
Israel is in line with the neocon agenda, in fact an integral part of "reshaping" the middle east into a new middle east.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yep, gonna have to burn it all to save it too.
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xkenx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. The neocon agenda is Bush's, not Israel's
Israel is defending her land and citizens. Israel voluntarily pulled back from Gaza and Lebanon, and the result was terrorists from those places attacking/kidnapping/bombing Israelis. If Israel had territorial ambitions, it would never have pulled back. Do not mistake Bushco's ambitions for those of Israel. Busco's seemingly extreme support of Israel stems from his Fundamentalist supporters/puppeteers' Armageddon/Rapture scenario. This Biblical interpretation requires the preservation of Israel for the return of Christ, and the Jews, some of whom will accept Christ, while the rest perish. Many Israelis have seen through this and realize that Bushco's preoccupation with Iraq and failure to engage in a Middle East peace process may have harmed Israel, not helped. Read below a column from Haaretz (Israel daily newspaper)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ending the neoconservative nightmare
By Daniel Levy
Witnessing the near-perfect symmetry of Israeli and American policy has been one of the more noteworthy aspects of the latest Lebanon war. A true friend in the White House. No deescalate and stabilize, honest-broker, diplomatic jaw-jaw from this president. Great. Except that Israel was actually in need of an early exit strategy, had its diplomatic options narrowed by American weakness and marginalization in the region, and found itself ratcheting up aerial and ground operations in ways that largely worked to Hezbollah's advantage, the Qana tragedy included. The American ladder had gone AWOL.

More worrying, while everyone here can identify an Israeli interest in securing the northern border and the justification in responding to Hezbollah, the goal of saving Lebanon's fragile Cedar Revolution sounds less distinctly Israeli. Perhaps an agenda invented elsewhere. As hostilities intensified, the phrase "proxy war" gained resonance.

Israelis have grown used to a different kind of American embrace - less instrumental, more emotional, but also responsible. A dependable friend, ready to lend a guiding hand back to the path of stabilization when necessary.

After this crisis will Israel belatedly wake up to the implications of the tectonic shift that has taken place in U.S.-Middle East policy?

In 1996 a group of then opposition U.S. policy agitators, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith, presented a paper entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" to incoming Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The "clean break" was from the prevailing peace process, advocating that Israel pursue a combination of roll-back, destabilization and containment in the region, including striking at Syria and removing Saddam Hussein from power in favor of "Hashemite control in Iraq." The Israeli horse they backed then was not up to the task.

Ten years later, as Netanyahu languishes in the opposition, as head of a small Likud faction, Perle, Feith and their neoconservative friends have justifiably earned a reputation as awesome wielders of foreign-policy influence under George W. Bush.

The key neocon protagonists, their think tanks and publications may be unfamiliar to many Israelis, but they are redefining the region we live in. This tight-knit group of "defense intellectuals" - centered around Bill Kristol, Michael Ledeen, Elliott Abrams, Perle, Feith and others - were considered somewhat off-beat until they teamed up with hawkish well-connected Republicans like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Newt Gingrich, and with the emerging powerhouse of the Christian right. Their agenda was an aggressive unilateralist U.S. global supremacy, a radical vision of transformative regime-change democratization, with a fixation on the Middle East, an obsession with Iraq and an affinity to "old Likud" politics in Israel. Their extended moment in the sun arrived after 9/11.

Finding themselves somewhat bogged down in the Iraqi quagmire, the neoconservatives are reveling in the latest crisis, displaying their customary hubris in re-seizing the initiative. The U.S. press and blogosphere is awash with neocon-inspired calls for indefinite shooting, no talking and extension of hostilities to Syria and Iran, with Gingrich calling this a third world war to "defend civilization."

Disentangling Israeli interests from the rubble of neocon "creative destruction" in the Middle East has become an urgent challenge for Israeli policy-makers. An America that seeks to reshape the region through an unsophisticated mixture of bombs and ballots, devoid of local contextual understanding, alliance-building or redressing of grievances, ultimately undermines both itself and Israel. The sight this week of Secretary of State Rice homeward bound, unable to touch down in any Arab capital, should have a sobering effect in Washington and Jerusalem.

Afghanistan is yet to be secured, Iraq is an exporter of instability and perhaps terror, too, Iranian hard-liners have been strengthened and encouraged, while the public throughout the region is ever-more radicalized, and in the yet-to-be "transformed" regimes of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, is certainly more hostile to Israel and America than its leaders. Neither listening nor talking to important, if problematic, actors in the region has only impoverished policy-making capacity.

Israel does have enemies, interests and security imperatives, but there is no logic in the country volunteering itself for the frontline of an ideologically misguided and avoidable war of civilizations.

So what should be done, on both sides of the ocean?

It is admittedly difficult for Israel to have a regional strategy that is out-of-step with the U.S. administration-of-the-day. However, the neocon approach is not unchallenged, and Israel should not be providing its ticket back to the ascendancy. A U.S. return to proactive diplomacy, realism and multilateralism, with sustained and hard engagement that delivers concrete progress, would best serve its own, Israeli and regional interests. Israel should encourage this. Israel may even have to lead, for instance, in rethinking policy on Hamas or Syria, and should certainly work intensely with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas in encouraging his efforts to reach a Palestinian national understanding as a basis for stable governance, security quiet and future peace negotiations. A policy that comes with a Jerusalem kosher stamp of approval might be viewed as less of an abomination in Washington.

Beyond that, Israel and its friends in the United States should seriously reconsider their alliances not only with the neocons, but also with the Christian Right. The largest "pro-Israel" lobby day during this crisis was mobilized by Pastor John Hagee and his Christians United For Israel, a believer in Armageddon with all its implications for a rather particular end to the Jewish story. This is just asking to become the mother of all dumb, self-defeating and morally abhorrent alliances.

Internationalist Republicans, Democrats and mainstream Israelis must construct an alternative narrative to the neocon nightmare, identifying shared interests in a policy that reestablishes American leadership, respect and credibility in the region by facilitating security and stability, pursuing conflict resolution and promoting the conditions for more open societies (as opposed to narrow election-worship). The last two years of the Bush presidency can be an opportunity for progress or an exercise in desperate damage limitation. It sounds counter-intuitive, but Israel should reflect on and even help reorient American expectations.

Daniel Levy was a member of the official Israeli negotiating team at the Oslo and Taba talks and the lead Israeli drafter of the Geneva Initiative.



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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. "American Exceptionalism"
It's an international version of 'It's Okay if You're a Republican."

The idea that we're programmed with is that since our motives are pure (yeah, right...), nothing we do can possibly be wrong. At least not on purpose.

It's probably the main reason "they all hate us."

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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I like that....
American Exceptionalism.....
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liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Manifest Destiny
American Exceptionalism, we're big and spend huge fortunes of american tax money on weapons so we can kill the shit out of anyone, even for an idea, it doesn't matter what you call it. It simply means our opinion matters, and we're going to shove it down your throat, and if you don't suck it up we're going to bomb the crap out of you.

We are all subjects of a lifetime of brainwashing, no less effective than the Saudi kids who are taught to hate America. We've actually been taught, even, to hate ideas and systems of government that actually benefit the majority of us. We've been taught the erroneous information that if we work real hard we've got a good chance of being a millionaire too, which is so bogus as to be totally unbelieveable.

One has to grasp the idea that the television in particular, and the media in general is the tool. It permeates, it is in everything, even the supposed liberal media are subjects. Even if you know, and you look for it, you will still feel it happening to you.

I liked the line in V for Vendetta, a great movie by the way. Weaving asks Portman "Is that what you really think, or is that what they want you to think." You should ask yourselves that about everything you've ever learned, and start making your decisions based not on the media, but what you actually think. We all can depend on our instincts more than what they tell us, as it will be flawed, and biased to the richest citizens in the US.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. ring a ding ding -- we have a winner.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. If there isn't a fascist (democracy?) government behind those who
kill innocents, then it's an act of terrorism.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. Because
Arab civilians are brown.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. The full fury of the US armed forces?
If Bush unleashed the full fury of the US armed forces, Iraq would be coated in glass today. Just be glad he hasn't done as you charged. -- Yet.

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